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One of the Bitterest BBI Ironies: Win Another Super Bowl...

M.S. : 10/11/2017 10:30 am
...before the Eli Manning window finally closes.

That mantra has been repeated a Baziillion times by a host of BBIers (including yours truly), but six years (including this season) have come and gone, and the Giants really never came close to another Super Bowl since 2012.

On reflection, bad player evaluations draft-wise doomed this team, and the well-recognized failures along the offensive line surely didn't help matters.

Most unfortunate is the fact that management lost sight of a fundamental Eli fact -- he loses efficiency (rapidly) when the pocket is compressed, and he is unable to create when things go wrong (ala Dak Prescott and Carson Wentz).

Also regrettable is the fact that management refused to go back to the draft well for more premium first round offensive linemen when it became all too apparent that -- despite the Pugh, Richburg and Flowers -- they didn't fix the wall in front of Eli.

Another management failure: drawing the wrong conclusion from the last Super Bowl victory... that the Giants could pass their way to victory in what had become a passing league... and forgetting that the ability to run the ball not only enhances the passing game, but often times controls the ebb-and-flow of the game at critical junctures (like the red zone and the last few minutes of the game.)

I feel sorry for Eli Manning -- he has been part of the solution, and part of the problem. And the "problem" part was greatly exacerbated by Giants management.

For those eternal optimists who believe Eli's window can open one more time in 2018, I'm sorry to say there are no more windows for this 2-time Super Bowl Champion.

At least NOT on the Giants.
Says you....  
18E : 10/11/2017 10:31 am : link
.
The league is built for teams to go from worst to first...  
Britt in VA : 10/11/2017 10:32 am : link
If Management makes the right moves, and we can build a semblance of an O-line in the offseason, there is talent on the team.
RE: The league is built for teams to go from worst to first...  
Brown Recluse : 10/11/2017 10:35 am : link
In comment 13642575 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
If Management makes the right moves, and we can build a semblance of an O-line in the offseason, there is talent on the team.


But is there anyone here that knows how to use it.
I hope he gets another one, I really do  
jcn56 : 10/11/2017 10:35 am : link
but if you time warped back to that trade, and told BBI we'd get two rings out of Eli, people would go screaming through the streets.

Save for Brady, nobody got a 3rd. Not even Peyton, who as much as we all love Eli was a much better QB than he was.

It's really fucking hard to win a Super Bowl, so when you do you should try to enjoy it more.
People need to stop living in the past  
jeff57 : 10/11/2017 10:36 am : link
And plan for the future.
Alanis Morissette likes this thread  
Mad Mike : 10/11/2017 10:37 am : link
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Bad drafting is the key  
Vanzetti : 10/11/2017 10:38 am : link
Richburg and Flowers have been very subpar for where they were drafted. So, it wasnít the approach that was wrong, they just picked the wrong guys.

I realize that Jerry is a scapegoat for many issues we face  
mdc1 : 10/11/2017 10:40 am : link
however the thing I just cannot believe is that he thinks this oline is acceptable and required no significant effort to rebuild. Nor do I think he is that foolish. Personally I think they did not invest in it so they could force a change, first TC, then Eli. Maybe the performance and the sports scandal were the last straw beyond the obvious "too old". He has to be thinking about the future; however Eli's contact is a tough spot to be in with Odell with hands out.

RE: Bad drafting is the key  
M.S. : 10/11/2017 10:44 am : link
In comment 13642586 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
Richburg and Flowers have been very subpar for where they were drafted. So, it wasnít the approach that was wrong, they just picked the wrong guys.

True... but I would argue that -- since Eli was the centerpiece for this entire team -- the Giants needed to go back again for high O-line draft picks come hell or high water. Otherwise, their crown jewel -- Eli -- would tarnish badly. He did.
RE: Alanis Morissette likes this thread  
bradshaw44 : 10/11/2017 10:50 am : link
In comment 13642585 Mad Mike said:
Quote:
*


Dont ya think?
So, so hard to get into the SB  
exiled : 10/11/2017 10:51 am : link
I think those wins in 2007, 2011 made us underestimate just how hard. Iíd have been happy with a more complete, competitive team during the second half of the Eli era.
This era of Giants football is over.  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/11/2017 10:54 am : link
It's time to stop building for just one year and build for the future. It's about the long term future of the GIANTS, not any one player.
I really think  
Knee of Theismann : 10/11/2017 10:55 am : link
We got lucky with our O-line in 2007 and 2011....


Diehl was a late 5th rd pick

Seubert was undrafted

O'Hara was undrafted, we got a good deal for him when he left the Browns and he became a 3-time pro bowler

Great pick on Snee, landing an all-pro guard in round 2

Kareem Mackenzie was a semi-big-money free agent who ended up working out very well.

Kevin Booth was a 6th round pick

And then think about that fact that most of the line managed to stay together for 5+ years.

We apparently got a little cavalier in thinking we could just automatically have a formidable o-line just because we will it so. Honestly David Diehl was probably the MVP of those teams in light of what we're seeing this season. The guy was the consummate professional too.

The window isn't closed with the Giants  
WillVAB : 10/11/2017 10:56 am : link
If they make the right moves in the next draft. If they tuck tail and draft a QB, then yes the window is closed with the Giants.
LOL,,,  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/11/2017 10:59 am : link
Quote:
People need to stop living in the past
jeff57 : 10:36 am : link : reply
And plan for the future.


People were ready to burn Coughlin and Eli in effigy by 2013.

People need to appreciate the past and understand how truly difficult it is to get a Super Bowl ring, let alone 4 of them.
RE: The window isn't closed with the Giants  
jeff57 : 10/11/2017 11:01 am : link
In comment 13642620 WillVAB said:
Quote:
If they make the right moves in the next draft. If they tuck tail and draft a QB, then yes the window is closed with the Giants.


Tuck tail? Is that what they call taking a QB in the top 5 picks? When you have a 37 year old starting QB. Seems like being smart.
In my opinion, the issue is poor management  
Matt M. : 10/11/2017 11:18 am : link
of personnel (draft and FA)by Reese, coupled with poor coaching. I think k we need a complete housecleaning to come close to contending as early as next year. Otherwise, trade Eli for picks to a contender.
RE: LOL,,,  
jeff57 : 10/11/2017 11:21 am : link
In comment 13642623 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


People need to stop living in the past
jeff57 : 10:36 am : link : reply
And plan for the future.



People were ready to burn Coughlin and Eli in effigy by 2013.

People need to appreciate the past and understand how truly difficult it is to get a Super Bowl ring, let alone 4 of them.


2013? What followed was two losing seasons and Coughlin's firing.

What does a super bowl ring in 1986 have to do with the team's future in 2017.
RE: RE: The league is built for teams to go from worst to first...  
Beer Man : 10/11/2017 11:27 am : link
In comment 13642579 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
In comment 13642575 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


If Management makes the right moves, and we can build a semblance of an O-line in the offseason, there is talent on the team.



But is there anyone here that knows how to use it.
Sure, don't you read BBI; there is a bunch of us (;>
enough with "the league is made to go from worst to first" bullshit  
Victor in CT : 10/11/2017 11:34 am : link
Because the other side of that is it's made to go from the playoffs to a top 5 draft pick. This along with the "Eli's window is closing" mantra are the types of mindsets that lead franchises into the wilderness. The Giants have been operating on both of these principles since 2012. It leads to short term thinking. 11-5 in 2016 was an abberation.

2012 - Give them a chance to repeat. Okay, I get that one. They ran out of gas and showed their age and weaknesses in the end. 9-7
2013 - The Super Bowl Clock. 'nuff said. 7-9 it's all Gilbrides fault
2014 - New OC McAdoo, gotta protect Eli, but pass on Zack Martin, take OBJ. Defense sucks, It's all Fewells fault. 6-10
2015 - Spags will get Eli to another SB. D sucks. Offense and OL suck. 6-10. It's all Coughlin's and Flaherty's fault. TC and Flats fired, Reese on notice.
2016 - McAdoo in as HC, Solari as OL coach. Offense sucks, OL still sucks, D played well with new FA additions, win inordinate number of tight games, 11-5. Blown out in playoff game.
2017 - Offense and OL still suck, D sucks again, STs suck 0-5 BEFORE all the injuries occur. or 0-4.75 at least.

Common denominators here: Reese and Ross player procurement, ownership either promotingng or buying into flawed pricnciples.

who was responsible  
Old Dirty : 10/11/2017 11:52 am : link
for the giants drafting Diehl & Snee, and signing Seubert, Ohara & McKenzie? Is this person still on the staff? Maybe it was the Oline coach. Whatever it was, we need to get back to that formula. I always thought that the Giants' mantra was that games are won or lost in the trenches. We are definitely not following that philosophy.
RE: who was responsible  
Victor in CT : 10/11/2017 11:56 am : link
In comment 13642711 Old Dirty said:
Quote:
for the giants drafting Diehl & Snee, and signing Seubert, Ohara & McKenzie? Is this person still on the staff? Maybe it was the Oline coach. Whatever it was, we need to get back to that formula. I always thought that the Giants' mantra was that games are won or lost in the trenches. We are definitely not following that philosophy.


You're right. They have lost their identity, forgotten who they are. They're swept up in the euphoria of having an electric talent like OBJ, but forgot that without the help in the trenches those weapons are useless.
What about Charger fans  
RetroJint : 10/11/2017 11:57 am : link
now that the Rivers era is coming to an end? He's just as good as Eli, all variables curved. They haven't won shit. Peyton, who was better than his brother , won two although he actually got in the way of the second .

Nobody said the Giants were going to win 5 Super Bowls with Eli. Stop whining about it. I've argued with my best friend for years about this point: Eli & Coughlin spoiled Giant fans & Mara. Why don't you just appreciate what they did do? Now the team is in the crapper. That's life. That's football.
RE: The league is built for teams to go from worst to first...  
BillKo : 10/11/2017 12:01 pm : link
In comment 13642575 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
If Management makes the right moves, and we can build a semblance of an O-line in the offseason, there is talent on the team.


It's so true, most teams aren't that far part.

And look at the teams this year. The AFC looks weak overall IMO.

The NFC....some good teams, but who really is clear cut?

It's pretty even.............
RE: RE: The window isn't closed with the Giants  
WillVAB : 10/11/2017 12:22 pm : link
In comment 13642627 jeff57 said:
Quote:
In comment 13642620 WillVAB said:


Quote:


If they make the right moves in the next draft. If they tuck tail and draft a QB, then yes the window is closed with the Giants.



Tuck tail? Is that what they call taking a QB in the top 5 picks? When you have a 37 year old starting QB. Seems like being smart.


100%. Plenty of people around the organization and the media believed this team was poised to compete for a championship this season. If the Giants make the perennial loser franchise move of going QB in the draft it's definitely a tuck tail move. They're essentially admitting that '16 was fool's gold and that this team requires a rebuild from the ground up.
RE: RE: RE: The window isn't closed with the Giants  
jeff57 : 10/11/2017 12:24 pm : link
In comment 13642777 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 13642627 jeff57 said:


Quote:


In comment 13642620 WillVAB said:


Quote:


If they make the right moves in the next draft. If they tuck tail and draft a QB, then yes the window is closed with the Giants.



Tuck tail? Is that what they call taking a QB in the top 5 picks? When you have a 37 year old starting QB. Seems like being smart.



100%. Plenty of people around the organization and the media believed this team was poised to compete for a championship this season. If the Giants make the perennial loser franchise move of going QB in the draft it's definitely a tuck tail move. They're essentially admitting that '16 was fool's gold and that this team requires a rebuild from the ground up.


It will be the one winning season in the last 6. It was fool's gold.
Jeff  
WillVAB : 10/11/2017 12:32 pm : link
That's valid although I disagree with you -- and I don't think Reese would want to concede that all of the moves he's made over the last few years were failures.
RE: Alanis Morissette likes this thread  
santacruzom : 10/11/2017 12:58 pm : link
In comment 13642585 Mad Mike said:
Quote:
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Alanis Morissette would archive this thread, thinking that archiving expresses liking it.
Worst to first? Are you kidding me?  
greek13 : 10/11/2017 1:01 pm : link
When has this ever happened in modern football?
We need to start mostly over - most of bbi knows that - 10 or so absolute keepers -
Will Mara admit that ?- worst to first ? My god óletís fire TC and Joe Girardi too ? Holy smokes

Mdc  
joeinpa : 10/11/2017 1:12 pm : link
Conspiracy theories never get old for fans. No disrespect, but Reese sis not plot to get rid oh Coughlin. It a ridiculous premise
RE: Worst to first? Are you kidding me?  
Britt in VA : 10/11/2017 1:20 pm : link
In comment 13642849 greek13 said:
Quote:
When has this ever happened in modern football?
We need to start mostly over - most of bbi knows that - 10 or so absolute keepers -
Will Mara admit that ?- worst to first ? My god óletís fire TC and Joe Girardi too ? Holy smokes


2013 Kansas City Chiefs: 2-14 to 11-5
2004 San Diego Chargers: 4-12 to 12-4
2008 Miami Dolphins: 1-15 to 11-5
1999 Colts: 3-13 to 13-3
2004 Pittsburgh Steelers: 6-10 to 15-1
2001 New England Patriots: 5-11 to 11-5 (won Superbowl)
1999 St. Louis Rams: 4-12 to 13-3 (won Superbowl)
And there are more....  
Britt in VA : 10/11/2017 1:22 pm : link
It's called parity.
RE: And there are more....  
Victor in CT : 10/11/2017 1:39 pm : link
In comment 13642881 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
It's called parity.


and you can probably find an equal # of teams that went playoffs to bust. Parity works both ways. I start the bidding with:

2002 Giants 10-6, 1 playoff win, 2003 Giants 4-12
2015 Jets 10-6, 2016 Jets 5-11

Have a long term plan for success (obviously an extereme case): NE Pats 9 or more wins every year since 2001. 2002 the only year with less than 10. (yeah I know, it's their division ;-) )
And that's fine....  
Britt in VA : 10/11/2017 1:42 pm : link
but I'm not sure of the relevance to this conversation.
Related to that irony is promoting  
Daniel in MI : 10/11/2017 1:43 pm : link
Ben Macadoo so Eli doesn't have to learn a new system so late in his career again. But, that might -- with the jury still out in year 2 -- have put a bullet in the head of his third trophy hopes.
RE: And that's fine....  
Victor in CT : 10/11/2017 1:48 pm : link
In comment 13642907 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
but I'm not sure of the relevance to this conversation.


The relevance? Really? You and others are hanging your hats on worst to first due to parity. I'm pointing out that 1) it works both ways, and 2) it's a stupid mantra to follow when compared to solid long term planning. The Giants right now are the result of the "fly by the seat of your pants approach". Change the OC 1 years, the DC the next, the HC the next, but don't let him hire his own staff.
It's hard to go from first to worst (the other way)  
Britt in VA : 10/11/2017 1:49 pm : link
when you're already the worst.

That's why it's not relevant to our current situation.
RE: It's hard to go from first to worst (the other way)  
Victor in CT : 10/11/2017 1:50 pm : link
In comment 13642935 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
when you're already the worst.

That's why it's not relevant to our current situation.


It's most definitely relevant when you're suggesting that is a way to run a team.
Where did I suggest anything about running the team that way?  
Britt in VA : 10/11/2017 1:51 pm : link
I don't even know how that would be a philosophy to run a team.

I just said the league is built, through parity, to allow that to happen.
wah waaaah  
Dinger : 10/11/2017 2:05 pm : link
Who let Debbie Downer into the CF?!

Kidding. It's a long shot but if he stays healthy and they get a few key positions upgraded in the offseason, there is talent on this team. And their schedule will be cake next year if they keep sucking. So Hey, I'm predicting sunshine and roses for next year(at least today). They pick up a Nate Solder and Luke Joeckel in FA They draft Derrius Guice, Mike McGlinchey and Daron Payne...

I guy can dream cant he
Not exactly  
greek13 : 10/11/2017 2:07 pm : link
Pats were tied for 6 th worst record
17 years ago

Rams were tied for 4th

You take your stuff to the bank on worst to first
See how that goes

This is about solid drafting
Smart FA
A winning culture
And leadership

We are 0/4
Blow it up
I don't know if anybody has been paying attention...  
Britt in VA : 10/11/2017 2:13 pm : link
but I've been on the fire McAdoo and Reese bandwagon the longest of any poster here, inarguably.

The league is built on parity, which allows teams the opportunity to go from worst to first. That was the whole reason they designed it that way.

Acknowledging that fact doesn't mean I don't think we should blow it up. Notice I said in my first post on this thread "if management makes the right decisions" ie: who they fire and who they hire.
RE: RE: Worst to first? Are you kidding me?  
old man : 10/11/2017 2:49 pm : link
In comment 13642879 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13642849 greek13 said:


Quote:


When has this ever happened in modern football?
We need to start mostly over - most of bbi knows that - 10 or so absolute keepers -
Will Mara admit that ?- worst to first ? My god óletís fire TC and Joe Girardi too ? Holy smokes




2013 Kansas City Chiefs: 2-14 to 11-5
2004 San Diego Chargers: 4-12 to 12-4
2008 Miami Dolphins: 1-15 to 11-5
1999 Colts: 3-13 to 13-3
2004 Pittsburgh Steelers: 6-10 to 15-1
2001 New England Patriots: 5-11 to 11-5 (won Superbowl)
1999 St. Louis Rams: 4-12 to 13-3 (won Superbowl)


So you're saying a new HC and new starting QB ...I believe the common thread in your list(except for lil Bill) turns us around?
While it's possible for us with a theoretical softer schedule our problem is there are VERY few soft teams: Cleveland, Rams,Az, Chargers, Jets,SF definitely have arrows up and the first 3 are 1-2 players away from being in the playoffs with their own turnaround, and our '18 schedule at best only minimally friendly.
And our own Division is always a battle.
I'm hopeful, but not optimistic until the '20 season, which will be without Eli,OBJ,Jackrabbit,or Snacks(the later 3 walk).
Eli could win another SB,  
Doomster : 10/11/2017 3:17 pm : link
but not by playing for the NY Football Giants...
Super Bowl  
Giantslifer : 10/11/2017 4:12 pm : link
Giants need to be very careful here, if they panic and go for QB without seeing if Webb or Geno is answer, they are in danger of becoming Jets or Browns.
Giant history is strong up middle and run ball. If they panic, don't rebuild OL first they will be stuck in the revolving door of QB's.
Not sure why D has fallen off cliff so fast, almost same players as last year. Seem to have lost all intensity.
Bottom line - Eli looks completely lost. He will have to be replaced either way.
Mac Magoo ?? Reese and staff-gone . Keep scouts,Saban was bust in NFL.
Draft BEEF
Let me re-phrase this thread starter by putting it this way...  
M.S. : 10/11/2017 6:57 pm : link

...if Giants' management was so convinced that Eli could lead the team to the promise land one mo' time (something many of us believed), then they failed to prop Eli up with enough protection for him to work his magic!

Instead, the Giants put together consistently bad offensive lines for the past five / six years, and that called for a very different QB... one who could "run for his life" and make several plays with his legs.

But no... the Giants wanted it both ways: for Eli to win another Super Bowl under conditions who could never succeed.

And that, my friends, is the bitterest irony of it all for these miserable Giants and the BBIers who live and breath this team every day!
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