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Years ago Parcells....

Gmen8691 : 10/11/2017 4:41 pm
was speaking on Coughlin. Mainly about him being on the quote on quote hot seat. I remember him saying "if you get rid of Coughlin who are you getting? If you don't want a coach Coughlin then i don't know what you're trying to accomplish". He said "they don't grow them on trees you know."
Please stop  
BillT : 10/11/2017 4:43 pm : link
This place was howling for TC's blood. No one here, even people like me who wanted him to stay, has anything to complain about regarding his release.
None of the coaches grow on trees  
Milton : 10/11/2017 4:45 pm : link
Not even the bad ones. Take away a Tony Romo overthrow in 2011 and the Giants don't even make the playoffs that year. Take away a Tony Romo on third and goal at the end of their playoff game in 2007 and they don't move on to the NFC Championship game that year. And what does that leave? Just a bunch of seasons in which the Giants started 5-2 or 6-2 and ended up with nothing to show for it. Coughlin was a decent head coach, but his years here are severely overrated by many.
RE: Please stop  
rocco8112 : 10/11/2017 4:47 pm : link
In comment 13643547 BillT said:
Quote:
This place was howling for TC's blood. No one here, even people like me who wanted him to stay, has anything to complain about regarding his release.


Not me, I was doubtful it was right at the time as I view 2013 as a roster collapse and it takes about three years for a competent coach and front office to rebuild. Last year was year three and TC was fired for the guy who is presiding over this disaster now.

I think this quote is spot on, if ownership could go back I bet they keep TC now looking at how this season is going to go. This is a three win team tops, this team sucks.
RE: None of the coaches grow on trees  
rocco8112 : 10/11/2017 4:51 pm : link
In comment 13643553 Milton said:
Quote:
Not even the bad ones. Take away a Tony Romo overthrow in 2011 and the Giants don't even make the playoffs that year. Take away a Tony Romo on third and goal at the end of their playoff game in 2007 and they don't move on to the NFC Championship game that year. And what does that leave? Just a bunch of seasons in which the Giants started 5-2 or 6-2 and ended up with nothing to show for it. Coughlin was a decent head coach, but his years here are severely overrated by many.


2007 was one of the greatest coaching jobs in NFL history. That team lost game one on the road and NEVER losta nother road game. Culminating with a historic road win in the NFC title game in fucking arctic conditions agianst a hall of fame QB and what we now know to be one of the consisting winning head coaches in the NFL.

Oh, as an encore to that it beat the "Greatest Team of All Time" to bring a third Super Bowl title to this franchise.

Lucky?

2011 a roster that no one would htink is a world beater went to take on the NFL's best in the playoffs and beat the Pats again to bring a fourth title.

When they decided to fire TC they should have had a clear replacement in mind. How is promoting McAdoo working out? He was supposed to keep building the offense, instead there is this disaster. I would take TC back in a hot minute. Things are going to hit rock bottom now.
As is always the case when discussing Coughlin...  
Tesla : 10/11/2017 5:08 pm : link
it's important to remember that when the team won the Super Bowls in 2007 and 2011 it was because of his leadership, and when they sucked his last few years it was because Reese couldn't get him decent players.

All the credit for the wins, and none of the blame for the losses (incidentally for much of BBI the same rules apply to Eli as well).
In fairness  
Daniel in MI : 10/11/2017 5:34 pm : link
TC was in Parcell's tree. Tuna does not think his loyalty is to GMs or players per se, but it is to coaches. TC was a coach in the Tuna mold, of COURSE he'd say that.
RE: As is always the case when discussing Coughlin...  
short lease : 10/11/2017 5:39 pm : link
In comment 13643602 Tesla said:
Quote:
it's important to remember that when the team won the Super Bowls in 2007 and 2011 it was because of his leadership, and when they sucked his last few years it was because Reese couldn't get him decent players.

All the credit for the wins, and none of the blame for the losses (incidentally for much of BBI the same rules apply to Eli as well).



That is exactly what happened genius (see what I did there?). After they fired Coughlin, Reese went out and bought a defense and the Giants finished 11-5. Where was that defense for TC?
RE: RE: As is always the case when discussing Coughlin...  
BillT : 10/11/2017 5:57 pm : link
In comment 13643674 short lease said:
Quote:
In comment 13643602 Tesla said:


Quote:


it's important to remember that when the team won the Super Bowls in 2007 and 2011 it was because of his leadership, and when they sucked his last few years it was because Reese couldn't get him decent players.

All the credit for the wins, and none of the blame for the losses (incidentally for much of BBI the same rules apply to Eli as well).




That is exactly what happened genius (see what I did there?). After they fired Coughlin, Reese went out and bought a defense and the Giants finished 11-5. Where was that defense for TC?

Ya can't buy a defense without money. That was the year they had the cap space to do that. Wasn't possible before that.
I want to be clear  
Matt M. : 10/11/2017 6:03 pm : link
I was never in favor of firing Coughlin and I said as much. But, I did understand why some people would be. What I can't understand is why Reese wasn't fired also, why McAdoo was promoted, and why McAdoo was allowed to retain most of the coaching staff. Basically, they made Coughlin the scapegoat for much greater problems and they are now paying for it.
RE: None of the coaches grow on trees  
an_idol_mind : 10/11/2017 7:36 pm : link
In comment 13643553 Milton said:
Quote:
Not even the bad ones. Take away a Tony Romo overthrow in 2011 and the Giants don't even make the playoffs that year. Take away a Tony Romo on third and goal at the end of their playoff game in 2007 and they don't move on to the NFC Championship game that year. And what does that leave? Just a bunch of seasons in which the Giants started 5-2 or 6-2 and ended up with nothing to show for it. Coughlin was a decent head coach, but his years here are severely overrated by many.


That is ridiculous. Might as well counter with the fact that the Giants would have beaten the Seahawks in 2011 if Cruz didn't fall down on a route (or the 49ers if the refs properly called defensive holding). Or that Romo's last pass in 2007 wouldn't have mattered if Webster held onto a pick-6 earlier in the game.

In the 8 postseason games Coughlin won, the Giants beat three 13-3 teams, a 15-1 team, and a 16-0 team. It's ridiculous to diminish that. Mediocre coaches do not accomplish that.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/11/2017 7:39 pm : link
There were plenty of warning signs that Coughlin might have been losing it.

The problem is hiring a new head coach - just like draft a new quarterback - is always somewhat of a crap shoot.

Yes, change can be good. But change can also sometimes make things worse.

This is why ownership and how the team is run matters.
RE: RE: None of the coaches grow on trees  
Milton : 10/11/2017 8:58 pm : link
In comment 13643832 an_idol_mind said:
Quote:
In comment 13643553 Milton said:


Quote:


Not even the bad ones. Take away a Tony Romo overthrow in 2011 and the Giants don't even make the playoffs that year. Take away a Tony Romo on third and goal at the end of their playoff game in 2007 and they don't move on to the NFC Championship game that year. And what does that leave? Just a bunch of seasons in which the Giants started 5-2 or 6-2 and ended up with nothing to show for it. Coughlin was a decent head coach, but his years here are severely overrated by many.



That is ridiculous. Might as well counter with the fact that the Giants would have beaten the Seahawks in 2011 if Cruz didn't fall down on a route (or the 49ers if the refs properly called defensive holding). Or that Romo's last pass in 2007 wouldn't have mattered if Webster held onto a pick-6 earlier in the game.

In the 8 postseason games Coughlin won, the Giants beat three 13-3 teams, a 15-1 team, and a 16-0 team. It's ridiculous to diminish that. Mediocre coaches do not accomplish that.
Yes lots of history turns on a dime. The point was the huge gulf between what was and what might've been based on two overthrows by Tony Romo, because outside of 2007 and 2011 is a pretty dismal account of Coughlin's time here. How many years did the Giants begin 5-2 or 6-2 and then collapse? Even in the Super Bowl years you saw the Giants losing games they should've won (ergo their 10-6 and 9-7 records that just barely qualified them for the playoffs those years)? How about the time they lost a home playoff game 20-0? Or the time they blew a 20 point lead in the 4th quarter? How many offensive and defensive coordinators did he have to fire? Coughlin was a decent coach, but no more than that.
Matt M.  
arniefez : 10/11/2017 9:04 pm : link
You think it was McAdoo's idea to keep almost all of Coughlin's coaches? I don't. Do you think it was McAdoo's idea to hire Sullivan as his OC? I don't. Do you think Jerry Reese had the final say on the new head coach or input into any of the assistants staying on? I think very little. I think the Mara brothers are running things from the top for better or worse.
RE: I want to be clear  
Rick5 : 10/11/2017 9:14 pm : link
In comment 13643716 Matt M. said:
Quote:
I was never in favor of firing Coughlin and I said as much. But, I did understand why some people would be. What I can't understand is why Reese wasn't fired also, why McAdoo was promoted, and why McAdoo was allowed to retain most of the coaching staff. Basically, they made Coughlin the scapegoat for much greater problems and they are now paying for it.

I felt the same way at the time. I thought it would be best to just ride out Eli's career with TC because hiring a rookie coach is a crapshoot. Keeping TC could certainly have led to nothing but more losing, but I knew there was a good chance that a rookie HC wouldn't pan out. It's not exactly a rare problem. In hindsight, they probably should have just cleaned house. Maybe we will get that after this season.
It was time for a change at head coach...  
EricJ : 10/11/2017 9:22 pm : link
but the mistake here was completely removing Tom. They should have fired Reese and given Tom the job that he has now with Jacksonville. Let Tom hire his own GM and head coach. Keeping the discipline in the organization.
RE: RE: RE: None of the coaches grow on trees  
an_idol_mind : 10/11/2017 10:11 pm : link
In comment 13644047 Milton said:
Quote:
Yes lots of history turns on a dime. The point was the huge gulf between what was and what might've been based on two overthrows by Tony Romo, because outside of 2007 and 2011 is a pretty dismal account of Coughlin's time here. How many years did the Giants begin 5-2 or 6-2 and then collapse? Even in the Super Bowl years you saw the Giants losing games they should've won (ergo their 10-6 and 9-7 records that just barely qualified them for the playoffs those years)? How about the time they lost a home playoff game 20-0? Or the time they blew a 20 point lead in the 4th quarter? How many offensive and defensive coordinators did he have to fire? Coughlin was a decent coach, but no more than that.


You can play the game of coaches losing games they should have won with anybody. Parcells Giants lost games they should have won, too, but most people have enough sense not to categorize him as a mediocre coach.

In regards to the 20-0 home playoff loss, it's worth remembering how decimated the team was with injuries by that point. The infamous Eagles loss was definitely on Coughlin. But I think his coaching won far more games than it lost.

Through his first eight seasons here, Coughlin had virtually the same record as Parcells. His team fell apart after that, and he rightly paid the price. He wasn't without his flaws, but he was a darned good coach. If you're going to diss him for the games he shouldn't have lost, you should at least credit him for the games where his teams played well beyond their ability.
RE: Please stop  
Gmen8691 : 10/12/2017 9:22 am : link
In comment 13643547 BillT said:
Quote:
This place was howling for TC's blood. No one here, even people like me who wanted him to stay, has anything to complain about regarding his release.


This is more about who you're replacing him with more so than keeping TC. We hired a QB coach who wasn't even the coordinator in GB.
RE: Please stop  
Gmen8691 : 10/12/2017 9:24 am : link
In comment 13643547 BillT said:
Quote:
This place was howling for TC's blood. No one here, even people like me who wanted him to stay, has anything to complain about regarding his release.


This is more about who you're replacing him with more so than keeping TC. We hired a QB coach who wasn't even the coordinator in GB.
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