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This is the Right Time for a Regime/Philosophy Change

arcarsenal : 10/11/2017 6:43 pm
First, I know the premise isn't exactly new or groundbreaking here - a lot of us want to see it.

But one of the things that has bothered me about the Giants in recent years has been the staggered hires, patchwork, and the fact that there really hasn't been uniformity from the top down.

Reese acquired Accorsi's QB and HC - which thankfully DID work out for us and net us two unforgettable runs.

But McAdoo was essentially forced on Coughlin, who, if he had his way, I'm sure would have preferred to continue along with Gilbride.

Then, Coughlin more or less became the sacrificial lamb after Reese saddled him with one of the worst defenses in NFL history - though Coughlin was absolutely not blameless and did a poor job in terms of in-game management in 2015 in particular.

As we know, McAdoo was then promoted and it seemed like this was done to maintain some sense of uniformity and keep Eli from having to learn yet another offense after two years.

This looked like a good decision last year, but it looks like a horrendous one now.

But we've been making decisions based on Eli's window - and Eli isn't even Reese's QB and McAdoo isn't really even Reese's coach.

So...

This is the correct time to hire a new GM - this GM will pick his own HC. And these guys will have a uniform vision/philosophy for this franchise. Then, they'll likely have their pick of the litter (or close) in this upcoming draft which could potentially rival some of the better QB classes we've seen.

This is an opportunity for the Giants to have a GM who has truly selected HIS coach and HIS QB and change the way they've approached team-building.

This is something the Giants have needed to do for a few years now - but because of where Eli was in his career, it was very difficult to do.

2017 may well be a blessing in disguise - this is the ideal spot to wipe the slate clean, get everyone on the same page from the top down and approach building this football team in a different manner.

It would be insane to keep trying to plug holes and "make a run" before Eli retires. We're beyond that now. This needs to be done.
No more half measures  
Keaton028 : 10/11/2017 6:52 pm : link
Let a new GM and Coach usher in the next era of (hopefully) good Giants football. A regime with preferably a belief in the run game and linebackers.
Yes...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/11/2017 7:23 pm : link
New GM needs to be brought in. And let him hire his own HC.
I agree - for a long time, it seems as if the FO and coaches  
jcn56 : 10/11/2017 7:29 pm : link
haven't been on the same page. Time to resync the whole operation and get everyone back on track.

It sucks to admit the window is likely closed, but we got two rings from it - the end was never going to be fun or pretty.
tl;dr  
BrettNYG10 : 10/11/2017 7:31 pm : link
.
100% agreed  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2017 7:32 pm : link
And for crying out loud, get someone with no history with the Giants. That means no Dave Gettleman.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 10/11/2017 7:33 pm : link
I'm not as convinced as everyone else is that the Giants can't turn right back into a playoff team with a strong off-season.

However, I think we have to jump at the opportunity to find a franchise QB if we have it, which will likely lead to a short-term step back. And I'm not sure I want Reese picking that guy.

I've also soured massively on McAdoo, as seemingly everyone else has. So I'm leaning towards clean slate.
Disagree that McAdoo was forced on Coughlin.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/11/2017 7:36 pm : link
The only thing forced on him was getting rid of KG after some truly vile offensive performances. Coughlin could have had his pick of coordinators and I have no reason to think otherwise. If I remember correctly, there were multiple interviews and one of the options was even Mike Sullivan.
RE: ....  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2017 7:40 pm : link
In comment 13643830 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
I'm not as convinced as everyone else is that the Giants can't turn right back into a playoff team with a strong off-season.

However, I think we have to jump at the opportunity to find a franchise QB if we have it, which will likely lead to a short-term step back. And I'm not sure I want Reese picking that guy.

I've also soured massively on McAdoo, as seemingly everyone else has. So I'm leaning towards clean slate.


I think the personnel itself might be good enough right now to try to address issues, get healthy and be a playoff team next year - but it's way, way too risky and will probably be more likely to backfire than anything else.

I think this coach is well past the point of no return now, so you'd need to promote Spagnuolo (which isn't even deserved, IMO) or have a new HC in here, which would mean another new offense and keeps the totem completely staggered and out of sorts.

No one wants to deal with "down" years in the NFL - so it's tempting to say "hey, maybe this can work if we make a few adjustments.. " but I think it would be a really big mistake to try that.

This is the ideal time to wipe the slate clean and let a brand new GM with a different philosophy than Reese choose HIS coach and HIS QB and start building this thing the way it needs to be built.

That said - first, we'd need to hire the right guy. If we miss on the next GM, it could set this franchise back really badly.

So, that's going to be the biggest challenge.
Who's the GM?  
Overseer : 10/11/2017 7:40 pm : link
but more difficult: who's the coach?

Chris Ballard is gone (Colts). Tempting to capture the Pats magic by snagging Caserio, but this is dangerous because Belichick is responsible for most of their big moves.

Pioli (51) seems like an obvious choice. Gettle is up there in years.

--

I would have loved Andy Reid as HC after he got fired in Philly - despite his obvious flaws - but TC was too close to SB46. Steady hand with second to only one for game prep and exploiting opponent weaknesses. But he's 5-0 in KC and locked in.

Really...who for HC? Spags? You gonnna bring in an unproven coordinator like Kris Richard (Seahawks DC). Haley? Schwartz? Rex?

The "best" options are probably Chip Kelly, Gary Kubiak, and Gruden. And these are not good options.

Easier said than done. Decent chance McAdoo is back next season.

RE: Disagree that McAdoo was forced on Coughlin.  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2017 7:41 pm : link
In comment 13643833 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
The only thing forced on him was getting rid of KG after some truly vile offensive performances. Coughlin could have had his pick of coordinators and I have no reason to think otherwise. If I remember correctly, there were multiple interviews and one of the options was even Mike Sullivan.


My point was that Gilbride was basically forced to retire.

Coughlin didn't want a new OC. The front office did.
The success rate for Patriots execs without Belichick is not  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/11/2017 7:43 pm : link
exactly something to write home about. I'd be very skeptical of such a thing. Half the NFL tried to catch magic in a bottle by raiding the Patriots for coaches, assistant coaches, and GMs, and it nearly never works.
RE: Who's the GM?  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2017 7:44 pm : link
In comment 13643842 Overseer said:
Quote:
but more difficult: who's the coach?

Chris Ballard is gone (Colts). Tempting to capture the Pats magic by snagging Caserio, but this is dangerous because Belichick is responsible for most of their big moves.

Pioli (51) seems like an obvious choice. Gettle is up there in years.

--

I would have loved Andy Reid as HC after he got fired in Philly - despite his obvious flaws - but TC was too close to SB46. Steady hand with second to only one for game prep and exploiting opponent weaknesses. But he's 5-0 in KC and locked in.

Really...who for HC? Spags? You gonnna bring in an unproven coordinator like Kris Richard (Seahawks DC). Haley? Schwartz? Rex?

The "best" options are probably Chip Kelly, Gary Kubiak, and Gruden. And these are not good options.

Easier said than done. Decent chance McAdoo is back next season.


Spagnuolo? Absolutely not.

Of course it's easier said than done - but that's no excuse to accept the status quo.

If it's not clear yet that McAdoo isn't the guy for this job, then we have even bigger issues.

This is a terribly coached team. Things are falling apart at the seams, guys don't respect this coach.

How many people even knew who Sean McVay was before the Rams hired him? He may well be the next McAdoo, but he's off to a good start there.

The scope isn't as narrow as we think it is.
RE: RE: Disagree that McAdoo was forced on Coughlin.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/11/2017 7:46 pm : link
In comment 13643844 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13643833 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


The only thing forced on him was getting rid of KG after some truly vile offensive performances. Coughlin could have had his pick of coordinators and I have no reason to think otherwise. If I remember correctly, there were multiple interviews and one of the options was even Mike Sullivan.



My point was that Gilbride was basically forced to retire.

Coughlin didn't want a new OC. The front office did.


Yeah, but if Coughlin was running things his way, Tim Lewis would still be running his defenses, too. He has a track record of being exceptionally bull-headed as well. I don't think there's anything wrong with the a front office insisting on making changes when things have run their course. Coughlin's loyal to a fault.
Reality is the HC market is thin  
Overseer : 10/11/2017 7:48 pm : link
unless one is okay with an unproven coordinator - which is always playing with fire - since weaknesses are often papered over by a competent Head coach. Josh McD in Denver, for instance.

Maybe Fox gets fired in Chicago.

60/40 McAdoo returns IMO.
...  
BrettNYG10 : 10/11/2017 7:50 pm : link
I agree, arc. If Eli was younger, I'd be more willing to give all involved a longer leash.

I am very worried about selecting the wrong QB and going into a Jags/Browns-esque cycle of drafting a new guy every few years and experiencing perpetual mediocrity. Maybe we can thread the needle and nail a QB pick and begin to build around him quickly.
TTH...  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2017 7:52 pm : link
I don't disagree with any of that - but what I'm saying is that the front office had to keep yanking Coughlin's coordinators away from him because they weren't getting the job done. Whether it was Lewis, Sheridan, Fewell or Gilbride, there was a lot of change going on with the coordinators and some of the position coaches while TC was here.

We wound up with a HC who the GM didn't hire, but the GM had a hand in forcing some of the coordinators out which resulted in coordinators that the HC may not have necessarily wanted in the first place.

Everything has just been out of sorts and I'm not sure there's a uniform philosophy in this organization from the front office down to the coordinators anymore.

Now we have a HC running a dysfunctional offense and an OC whom he won't let call the plays.

This thing just needs to be blown up.
And McVay is kind of having the same year McAdoo had last year  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/11/2017 7:54 pm : link
First season, "fixed" everything that was wrong the year before. We were all singing the praises of managing game situations better than Coughlin had botched the year before. They were winning close and late games even while having a really limited offense. They were competing hard and looked great doing it.

So right now McVay can coach, and if he struggles next year will people say he can't?

Obviously McAdoo isn't blameless in this, but we all knew before the year started that relying on this offensive line was a huge risk. We all knew the schedule was going to be more stacked against them. Some of us understood they weren't going to have another year of amazing injury luck.

The thing I'm most upset about this year isn't McAdoo and isn't the offense. It's how the defense has been mediocre since kickoff of game one.
RE: TTH...  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/11/2017 7:56 pm : link
In comment 13643853 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I don't disagree with any of that - but what I'm saying is that the front office had to keep yanking Coughlin's coordinators away from him because they weren't getting the job done. Whether it was Lewis, Sheridan, Fewell or Gilbride, there was a lot of change going on with the coordinators and some of the position coaches while TC was here.

We wound up with a HC who the GM didn't hire, but the GM had a hand in forcing some of the coordinators out which resulted in coordinators that the HC may not have necessarily wanted in the first place.

Everything has just been out of sorts and I'm not sure there's a uniform philosophy in this organization from the front office down to the coordinators anymore.

Now we have a HC running a dysfunctional offense and an OC whom he won't let call the plays.

This thing just needs to be blown up.


Thing is, I'm not convinced that the next GM gets to pick his own coach. John is always involved in that, whether you think that's good or bad. Remember, if it was up to Accorsi, Coughlin would never have been hired. The GM of the Giants is ultimately going to be working for John Mara, and the Giants never have pretended that the GM has full autonomy to do whatever.
I'd be surprised to see it happen  
Giantology : 10/11/2017 7:56 pm : link
I don't see John Mara giving up this quickly on McAdoo, barring any other major locker room issues/drama this year.

And while we may be in a great place to draft a future QB, financially we can't really reset our core until 2019. The majority of the cap room we have next offseason will be used up on either re-signing Pugh & Richburg, or replacing them.

Based on that, I expect we'll get one more year to see how it goes before deciding if we should part ways with everyone- Reese, McAdoo and Eli.
Re-signing Pugh and Richburg shouldn't even be an option  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/11/2017 8:03 pm : link
Pugh is going to get $60m from someone because any guard with a shred of competence has gotten $50-60m lately.

And Richburg has done nothing but become worse since year 2.

The last thing this team needs to do is get more expensive. They don't even have the money to play in that market anyway.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2017 8:03 pm : link
I wouldn't be surprised at all if they decided to try this again next year - I just think it would be a really big mistake.

This is the time to wipe the slate clean - things have aligned in a way where it can happen and work well with a guy who could potentially be the next franchise QB.

This is a poorly coached team. Much worse teams in this league have won a game (or even more) - granted, some of that may be opponent-based - but regardless. I don't think anyone can say McAdoo deserves another year after this. There's literally nothing you can point to that has been redeeming so far.

The Giants have been broken for a while now. Clinging onto what appears to have been more an outlier than anything else in 2016 would be the wrong way to approach this, in my opinion.
RE: Re-signing Pugh and Richburg shouldn't even be an option  
Giantology : 10/11/2017 8:04 pm : link
In comment 13643864 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Pugh is going to get $60m from someone because any guard with a shred of competence has gotten $50-60m lately.

And Richburg has done nothing but become worse since year 2.

The last thing this team needs to do is get more expensive. They don't even have the money to play in that market anyway.


Well, they're not going to go into the draft and rely on all rookies to fill the OL holes, so we'll certainly be players in the OL market whether its the big money or we're bargain hunting.
RE: And McVay is kind of having the same year McAdoo had last year  
jvm52106 : 10/11/2017 8:18 pm : link
In comment 13643854 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
First season, "fixed" everything that was wrong the year before. We were all singing the praises of managing game situations better than Coughlin had botched the year before. They were winning close and late games even while having a really limited offense. They were competing hard and looked great doing it.

So right now McVay can coach, and if he struggles next year will people say he can't?

Obviously McAdoo isn't blameless in this, but we all knew before the year started that relying on this offensive line was a huge risk. We all knew the schedule was going to be more stacked against them. Some of us understood they weren't going to have another year of amazing injury luck.

The thing I'm most upset about this year isn't McAdoo and isn't the offense. It's how the defense has been mediocre since kickoff of game one.


I don't know if I agree with that. Remember, McAdoo had Eli in his offense for two years before taking over as HC and then his offense stunk even in the winning season. McVay has made the offense come alive across the board. They are a player or two away from really challenging.
But how will Mara  
CromartiesKid21 : 10/11/2017 8:23 pm : link
continue playing the master puppeteer?
I'd do it at the bye week..  
Sean : 10/11/2017 8:50 pm : link
0-7, don't bother Reese fielding those questions.
RE: RE: Re-signing Pugh and Richburg shouldn't even be an option  
old man : 10/11/2017 9:01 pm : link
In comment 13643867 Giantology said:
Quote:
In comment 13643864 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


Pugh is going to get $60m from someone because any guard with a shred of competence has gotten $50-60m lately.

And Richburg has done nothing but become worse since year 2.

The last thing this team needs to do is get more expensive. They don't even have the money to play in that market anyway.



Well, they're not going to go into the draft and rely on all rookies to fill the OL holes, so we'll certainly be players in the OL market whether its the big money or we're bargain hunting.

Dumpster diving for OL helped get us here.
Will a guy take 3-4M more a year to play for a team with uncertainties, or, be willing to get paid well but that much less to finally go to a winner or a team close to it?
That said...the thread is spot on.
The organization has no philosophy, so the team has no identity,
Any college coaches worth talking about?  
exiled : 10/11/2017 9:08 pm : link
I donít know much about the NCAA. (That said, Letís Go Hokies!)
Here is what will happen....  
EricJ : 10/11/2017 9:18 pm : link
Reese will get fired but we will hate Mara's replacement choice.
RE: Here is what will happen....  
Rick5 : 10/11/2017 9:43 pm : link
In comment 13644108 EricJ said:
Quote:
Reese will get fired but we will hate Mara's replacement choice.

LOL.
Fire Reese, fire Mac  
Jim in Forest Hills : 10/11/2017 10:03 pm : link
Hire Barry Alvarez as GM
Hire Paul Chryst as HC
Jim Leonhard as DC
Draft Fumagalli

They will run the ball and play good D. Fun to watch, well coached team. Jazz Peavy on the jet sweep.

Seriously though, I agree, the time is now.
RE: Who's the GM?  
djstat : 10/11/2017 10:23 pm : link
In comment 13643842 Overseer said:
Quote:
but more difficult: who's the coach?

Chris Ballard is gone (Colts). Tempting to capture the Pats magic by snagging Caserio, but this is dangerous because Belichick is responsible for most of their big moves.

Pioli (51) seems like an obvious choice. Gettle is up there in years.

--

I would have loved Andy Reid as HC after he got fired in Philly - despite his obvious flaws - but TC was too close to SB46. Steady hand with second to only one for game prep and exploiting opponent weaknesses. But he's 5-0 in KC and locked in.

Really...who for HC? Spags? You gonnna bring in an unproven coordinator like Kris Richard (Seahawks DC). Haley? Schwartz? Rex?

The "best" options are probably Chip Kelly, Gary Kubiak, and Gruden. And these are not good options.

Easier said than done. Decent chance McAdoo is back next season.


Why is an unproven coach a bad thing? All coaches are unproven. Here's my top 4 for GM and Coaches

In No Order

GM
Eric DeCosta
Scot Mcglothlin
Eliot Wolf
Bill Pollian

Coach
Bill Cowher
Josh McDaniels
Mike McKoy
Jon Gruden

The GM's are proven people.

DeCosta is a great personnel guy who understands the GM/HC team relationship that Baltimore has had.

McGlothlin - The Redskins are having great success cause of his drafts and teams. Not his fault the owner is a Turd and Bruce Allen is a scumbag.

Eliot Wolf - Green Bay wants Ted Thompson to leave so they don't lose him.

Bill Pollian - Knows how to build winners. Wants one more shot

Coaches - All experienced but all may want opportunities for different reasons

Cowher - Dick Vermeil came back after a 15 year layoff and won a super bowl. A new regime might be the key t Cowhers dream job.

McDaniels - Failed as a HC when he was too young. I think he understands offensive football and will thrive with a good front office and a second chance. He'd make Eli successful in the twilight years.

Mike McKoy - San Diego's offense under him was very good. Injuries, poor defense, poor ownership and the constant threat of moving doomed him in San Diego. Look what he is doing for Denvers offense.

Gruden - How much fun would that be with the NY media?

I love Gary Kubiak, but if health reasons force him to leave Denver he is not coming to NY.

Chip Kelly - Failure. Don't like his offense.


The Reese QB thing  
djstat : 10/11/2017 10:35 pm : link
I have seen a lot of people here complain the Eli was not Jerry Reeses QB. He was Ernie Accorssi's. Of all the things Jerry could complain about, this is not Valid. When Reese took over he had been in our front office for years and was part of the team that drafted Eli. Eli had just finished his 3rd year as a QB, 2nd full year as a starter.

To say that Reese was stuck with a QB that was not his QB is ridiculous. He was hired knowing Eli was the franchise QB. Mike McCarthy was hired and handed Aaron ROdgers. He didn't draft rodgers. Heck he was on the team that chose Alex Smith over Rodgers.

If anything Reese should be happy he had Eli and didn't take over in 2007 when your top QB's were:

JaMarcus RUssel
Brady Quinn
Kevin Kolb
John Beck
Drew Stanton
Trent Edwards
Issaih Stanback
Jeff Rowe
Troy Smith
Jordan Palmer
Tyler Thigpen

Tell me, did Reese really deserve to pick his own guy?

COughlin...fine...McAdoo fine. Eli...NO


I agree and is why I would rather have the RB  
Bluesbreaker : 10/11/2017 11:05 pm : link
...
BrettNYG10 : 7:50 pm : link : reply
I agree, arc. If Eli was younger, I'd be more willing to give all involved a longer leash.

I am very worried about selecting the wrong QB and going into a Jags/Browns-esque cycle of drafting a new guy every few years and experiencing perpetual mediocrity. Maybe we can thread the needle and nail a QB pick and begin to build around him quickly.

Let Eli finish his contract and hope Webb is the answer .
If we blow the QB pick were screwed .
Barkley might be the OBJ of RB's ....
Gruden makes the most sense  
NikkiMac : 10/12/2017 5:26 am : link
If the Giants want to keep Eli heís got experience more than Mac in the WCO system .......
.  
Pascal4554 : 10/12/2017 6:49 am : link
Would definitely like a new GM and a fresh start. Honestly though, confused as to why McAdoo is not somewhat of a Reese hire? I keep reading that occasionally.

I find it hard to believe Reese didn't have some input into the decision to make McAdoo the head coach? Not sure anyone really knows what happens behind closed doors, but doesn't the GM usually have some say in who is head coach?
Based on what information does Bill Polian "want one more shot"?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/12/2017 7:17 am : link
He's 75 years old and god fired six years ago. Half the league has turned over in that time. He could have gone anywhere.

Aside from the small fact that the Colts fell apart like a house of cards after Peyton got hurt, exposing how little was actually built there. They still haven't recovered even after failing upward into another top of the draft QB prospect.
When people..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/12/2017 8:22 am : link
continually fall back on names like Gruden, Cowher and Polian and try to discuss these options as either realistic or as good solutions, it shows you how thin the pool is for GM's and HC's.
These threads are getting tiring.  
Dodge : 10/12/2017 9:20 am : link
Especially when people think Gruden or Cowher is a thing. Gruden or Cowher aren't going anywhere where they have to build a team and not having a star QB. Gruden loves his gig and Cowher is probably too old to want to start off without a good QB.

Can we get moderators to shut down the trash threads on this board all talking about the same thing? Can we consolidate everything?
RE: When people..  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/12/2017 9:22 am : link
In comment 13645116 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
continually fall back on names like Gruden, Cowher and Polian and try to discuss these options as either realistic or as good solutions, it shows you how thin the pool is for GM's and HC's.


I don't think the pool is actually thin. It's just that people's knowledge of the candidates around the league that are well-thought of is thin.

I think it's thin when you consider risk  
jcn56 : 10/12/2017 9:26 am : link
I'm sure there's a handful of really great coaches out there. One of them can easily be the next Reid or Fox, to pick from active coaches who have gone to a SB and achieved some success.

Unfortunately, that's a handful out of literally hundreds of coaches, where a good number of them might make McAdoo look like Belichick.

When you consider the high bust likelihood, the talent pool looks pretty thin.
People STILL want Josh McDaniels  
Greg from LI : 10/12/2017 9:38 am : link
Or anyone else from the Patriots not named Belichick. Astonishing. How many times do those guys have to fail miserably before people accept that New England is as much of a one man show as any NFL power ever has been?
RE: When people..  
Dinger : 10/12/2017 11:20 am : link
In comment 13645116 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
continually fall back on names like Gruden, Cowher and Polian and try to discuss these options as either realistic or as good solutions, it shows you how thin the pool is for GM's and HC's.


You are very quick to criticize people but here I agree with you. Who do you like at GM? at HC? I for one have no idea who they could bring in has GM. Head coach, the only ones I could possibly think of would be Harbaugh who I detest but had success with a disfunctional franchise, or Saban, who was horrible his first time round so not sure I'd take the chance with him.
Agree with us....  
BillKo : 10/12/2017 11:52 am : link
...being out of sync, mixing and matching things together. It's not working.

I'd bring in a experienced GM with a track record, give him full reign, to pick a new coach.

Big problem might be canning BM would be management admitting they made the wrong call. That's going to take some major swallowing of pride.

Firing Reese would be easier, but then we are again in that cycle of mixing and matching - if they demanded BM has to stay.

Firing Reese and letting your GM take over - much like George Young did in 1979 - is probably the best route.
RE: When people..  
BillKo : 10/12/2017 11:55 am : link
In comment 13645116 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
continually fall back on names like Gruden, Cowher and Polian and try to discuss these options as either realistic or as good solutions, it shows you how thin the pool is for GM's and HC's.


That's because putting those names out there is easy.

There are a good assistants out there right now, in the NFL, who will make good HC's.

You just need to find them.
RE: These threads are getting tiring.  
arcarsenal : 10/12/2017 11:58 am : link
In comment 13645208 Dodge said:
Quote:
Especially when people think Gruden or Cowher is a thing. Gruden or Cowher aren't going anywhere where they have to build a team and not having a star QB. Gruden loves his gig and Cowher is probably too old to want to start off without a good QB.

Can we get moderators to shut down the trash threads on this board all talking about the same thing? Can we consolidate everything?


I said nothing about either guy in the OP.

No one forced you to read the thread or comment on it, either.

Thanks for the input, though.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/12/2017 12:03 pm : link
And yeah, the HC pool is thin - but that doesn't mean there isn't anyone out there who could potentially do a better job or that we should just stick it out with McAdoo by default.

Pretty much all of the great head coaches started off as assistants or coordinators. When they got their first HC gigs, they probably weren't as highly sought after as people may think.

It's putting faith in the front office to find and select the right guy - which is a benefit of the doubt that is probably undeserved right now - but when things get rotten like this, there's usually no coming back from it.

It makes sense to wipe the slate clean now.

This team needs an identity and a direction. What is it right now? What is the Giants' identity? They don't run the ball well, they're not a high octane passing offense, they're average defensively. We're not strong in the trenches.

This team needs a vision and a philosophy and someone who can follow through with it.
.....  
BrettNYG10 : 10/12/2017 12:08 pm : link
I think the team had a vision that failed to come to fruition. If the defense was the elite unit projected, the team is probably 3-2. The offense seemed to be progressing nicely prior to this sweep of injuries at the WR position.

McAdoo's in-game management failed us. This spat with DRC is a bit of icing on the cake for me. But the defense taking a step back falls on Reese who seemed to get a bit complacent on that side of the ball and was fine letting Hankins walk without a suitable replacement immediately.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/12/2017 12:24 pm : link
Yeah, I think the plan this year was to basically replicate the 2016 formula and win with great defense while upgrading the skill positions enough to improve the offense a bit and make the team better overall.

In retrospect, it was flawed, and even if the defense had been a mirror of the 2016 unit, I still think this team would have struggled because the offense isn't able to control TOP or effectively run the ball (though things looked a little better without watching Perkins get hit for a 1 yard loss on every other carry)

I drank the Kool Aid like most people did when it came to this year - so I was certainly wrong. But the more I watch, the more I realize that the foundation of this team is just cracked and no matter how many times we paint over it, it's not going to fix it.

I want someone who will commit to the trenches who will build this football team from the inside out and will be able to identify the correct franchise QB to do it with.

I still think if you can build a team with strong fronts and tough defense, you can go a long way in this league.

A lot of execs seem to be trying to cut corners and find other ways to to it but I still really believe in the tried and true.

I want to see a team that can pound the rock, play defense, and employ an effective play action passing game.
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BrettNYG10 : 10/12/2017 12:30 pm : link
I thought anywhere from 8-12 wins was realistic - 0-5 is pretty shocking to me. I thought the O would be a lot better but the D would take a slight step back but still be top ten.

Injuries and the schedule makes me think 2-4 wins is more likely now.
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arcarsenal : 10/12/2017 12:34 pm : link
The defense was really what surprised me most.

Right out of the gates, they didn't look like the same unit they were last year - which didn't make a lot of sense considering the personnel was almost identical and that they didn't lose any impact player outside of Hankins - whom, I think was a solid piece, but shouldn't have been responsible for this drop off.

I thought this was a very safe bet to be a top 5 defense.

They've been painfully average. Not playing the run nearly as well, front four generates barely any pass rush, we give up a lot of extended drives, and we don't force many turnovers.

There's barely anything that this defense excels at.
the run defense has been shockingly poor  
Greg from LI : 10/12/2017 12:38 pm : link
And the tackling - how the hell do almost the exact same group of guys go from such excellent tackling last year to such awful tackling this year? It's surreal.
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arcarsenal : 10/12/2017 12:41 pm : link
That's the other thing - the tackling.

The technique is god-awful. Guys just launching themselves shoulder first into the legs of the ballcarriers time and time again.

It shouldn't take 6 players to get a ballcarrier down but that's what you routinely see here because no one wants to do anything other than throw themselves at the player with the football without wrapping up.
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BrettNYG10 : 10/12/2017 12:45 pm : link
I had some concerns about Collins' production not being repeatable, but I thought Apple would develop and help overcome that.

I was more concerned about Hankins leaving than most, but his loss isn't responsible for this big of a step-back.

We see other teams in the league continue to invest in their elite units - Seahawks trading for Richardson, for example - while the Giants don't, assuming static play. This isn't the first time it's happened either - we saw a lack of investment in the OL immediately after the 2011 Super Bowl victory and have paid dearly for it.

Like I said, I expected a much better team this year so I'm not saying I saw this coming or anything. Maybe it's all more excusable than it feels sitting here today.
The defense is the most surprising component to me  
JoeMoney19 : 10/12/2017 12:54 pm : link
I'm not surprised the offense started slowly, especially with OBJ's injury, and I've come to expect semi-regular gaffs from the special teams unit.

But what the hell happened to the defense? I agree Hankins was a loss, but the DT's have been the least of our problems. I thought for sure we'd have a top 5 defense this year but the unit regressed considerably with largely the same personnel plus what were assumed upgrades (e.g. Goodson at MIKE, Apple developing further, Thompson over Adams). Those "upgrades" haven't panned out (yet) but it's still hard to fathom a defensive unit with Collins, JPP, Vernon, Jenkins, DRC and Snacks playing at such a lackluster level.
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arcarsenal : 10/12/2017 12:57 pm : link
I was a proponent of re-signing JPP but the guy is playing well below his pay grade right now. He's been a huge disappointment.

I also thought Vernon was going to have a monster year.

So far, not happening - and he's also injured.

Spagnuolo isn't blameless in this, either. He's doing a poor job this year and is somehow flying almost entirely under the radar because of everything going on with McAdoo
RE: The defense is the most surprising component to me  
gmenatlarge : 10/12/2017 1:55 pm : link
In comment 13645645 JoeMoney19 said:
Quote:
I'm not surprised the offense started slowly, especially with OBJ's injury, and I've come to expect semi-regular gaffs from the special teams unit.

But what the hell happened to the defense? I agree Hankins was a loss, but the DT's have been the least of our problems. I thought for sure we'd have a top 5 defense this year but the unit regressed considerably with largely the same personnel plus what were assumed upgrades (e.g. Goodson at MIKE, Apple developing further, Thompson over Adams). Those "upgrades" haven't panned out (yet) but it's still hard to fathom a defensive unit with Collins, JPP, Vernon, Jenkins, DRC and Snacks playing at such a lackluster level.


the injury excuse was used on OV all last year also, at what point do you have to produce, I guess we're past that!
The GM and front office have been a failure  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/12/2017 3:13 pm : link
for 6 years now. Nothing has changed or gotten better since TC was fired, like some on here said it would. Time to move on. He should've been fired along with TC in 2015.
RE: .  
Jersey55 : 10/12/2017 4:51 pm : link
In comment 13645620 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
That's the other thing - the tackling.

The technique is god-awful. Guys just launching themselves shoulder first into the legs of the ballcarriers time and time again.

It shouldn't take 6 players to get a ballcarrier down but that's what you routinely see here because no one wants to do anything other than throw themselves at the player with the football without wrapping up.

whatever became of wrapping up with good form tackling, i used to think it was just the players not being good at it but now I believe coaches are coaching turnovers over good tackling...
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