I have brought up my view that the Giants should move on from Eli Manning in multiple threads but felt we should have a consolidated discussion. Lets address the 20 million dollar elephant in the room.
Since 2004, the game has massively changed. We just witnessed a battle of 0-4 teams, Eli Manning and Phillip Rivers, essentially the last of a dying breed of statue pocket passers. Mobility and the ability to evade a collapsing pocket is critical in today's NFL. Look no further than the Packers Cowboys game last week. Aaron Rodgers on 3rd and 8 from the 31 not only escapes a sack, he scrambles for 18 yards and a 1st down that is followed by a game winning TD pass. Matthew Stafford in week 2 against the Giants broke the pocket multiple times to find receivers downfield or run for first downs.
How about the other HOF QB from the great 2004 class? Ben Roethlisberger has a whopping 6 TDs and 7 interceptions this year. These guys are all old and are hindering their teams with their bloated cap numbers.
There are young cost controlled QBs all over the NFL that are lighting up the league. While Eli is doing what is best for him and his family by signing for the maximum amount he can get, it is hurting the team around him. Reese has a lot of blame here as well for wasting cap space on the likes of JPP and Marshall, but the offensive line needs $$ to be fixed, so where is it going to come from?
Rather than fearing life after a HOF QB in Eli Manning, think of it this way. With the cap savings by releasing Manning as a post June 1st cut and the current available space, the Giants sign 2 new offensive lineman and re-sign either Pugh or Richburg, and kick Flowers to RT. They draft the next great QB in the top 5. This new young star not only has an upgraded O-line to play behind, but he has a top 10 NFL star in Odell Beckham to throw to, along with great pieces in Evan Engram and Sterling Shepard. Sure, there is no guarantee that the new QB will pan out and not bust, but it is a risk they are going to have to take.
There was a time when Eli elevated the players around him, but that time has passed. In fact, I would go as far as to say that his career has been extended by a superstar talent in Beckham who routinely catches inaccurate passes and takes 7 yard slants to the house for 60 yard TDs. I still believe Eli has something left in the tank, but not for this team. We need to accept that it is time to move on and do what is best for this franchise.
So the question remains- what do you do with Eli Manning?
The one part that I disagree with your post on is that Eli doesn't make the players around him better. No way we win more than 3 games per year over the last few if Eli doesn't bail out the team with his 4th quarter comebacks. Yes Beckham takes some credit for that I agree. He is indeed a special talent.
I think Eli deserves the Favre treatment. Groom a guy behind him- give him a chance to go out as a career giant at around age 38 (2 more years). If he wants to continue playing after that then he will have to put on another uniform. I firmly believe that he wouldn't really do that. He has made 20 million or so a year plus endorsements for the better part of a decade and a half.
I do think that if Eli had even a decent O-Line that we wouldn't be having this discussion though and Eli would be well on his way to a great year. His passing skills have not diminished in my opinion.
We all agree that outside of Odell Beckham, the talent around Eli Manning has stunk, yes?
Okay, let's take away Odell's contributions and see what's left.
2014:
Eli Manning: 4410 yards, 30 TD's
Odell Beckham: 1305 yards, 12 TD's
Eli without Odell: 3105 yards, 18 TD's.
2015:
Eli Manning: 4432 yards, 35 TD's
Odell Beckham: 1450 yards, 13 TD's
Eli without Odell: 2982 yards, 22 TD's
2016:
Eli Manning: 4027 yards, 26 TD's
Odell Beckham: 1367 yards, 10 TD's
Eli without Odell: 2660 yards, 16 TD's
Everybody had a down year last year in this boring, unimaginative, stubborn, shit offense. But let's not act like the past three years have been the Odell Beckham show exclusively taking Eli's 3 yard slants to the house every time. Eli is still throwing around to plenty of other bums, and those bums are scoring, too. In fact, it's hard to believe he had those stats when you take Odell's contributions away, really considering the cast of characters involved. Eli is doing what he has always done, and his statistics reflect that.
He was flinging the ball all over the field in Green Bay last January, and the WR's, including Odell, were dropping passes.
Eli Manning has thrown 56 TD's to guys not named Odell over the past three years.
I would try to trade Eli.....of course, by making it known that you are in the market to do this, weakens your position....you would have to hope that someone comes knocking, first, by saying "we are exploring all options"......that way they take over the salary, and give draft pick(s) in return....right now, Eli gets 16M next season, which is not too high for a guy who is still a guy capable of leading a team to a SB, with a good OL and running game.....
Would he do it and give up the no trade clause? Well, he has a choice...accept it and get his 16M, or get cut and negotiate a contract with some other team....would a team pay him 16M to be their qb at the age of 37? I think he would do it to help the Giants....
Either way, it provides cap space to rebuild the OL in FAcy, but a trade would get them picks, also....
There is no way, the Giants are stupid enough to keep Manning and pay his cap, while drafting their qb of the future....it delays the rebuild of the team.....you do not do a rebuild around Manning.....just does not make sense at his age.....
The sentimentality around here, of keeping Eli a Giant forever, has to be faced with harsh reality.....Montana went to another team....so did Peyton.....
You either go all in with Manning, or plan for the future without him...can't have it both ways....
That's a fact, jack.
How old was Brett Favre when the Packers drafted Rogers in the 1st round?
We all agree that outside of Odell Beckham, the talent around Eli Manning has stunk, yes?
Okay, let's take away Odell's contributions and see what's left.
2014:
Eli Manning: 4410 yards, 30 TD's
Odell Beckham: 1305 yards, 12 TD's
Eli without Odell: 3105 yards, 18 TD's.
2015:
Eli Manning: 4432 yards, 35 TD's
Odell Beckham: 1450 yards, 13 TD's
Eli without Odell: 2982 yards, 22 TD's
2016:
Eli Manning: 4027 yards, 26 TD's
Odell Beckham: 1367 yards, 10 TD's
Eli without Odell: 2660 yards, 16 TD's
Everybody had a down year last year in this boring, unimaginative, stubborn, shit offense. But let's not act like the past three years have been the Odell Beckham show exclusively taking Eli's 3 yard slants to the house every time. Eli is still throwing around to plenty of other bums, and those bums are scoring, too. In fact, it's hard to believe he had those stats when you take Odell's contributions away, really considering the cast of characters involved. Eli is doing what he has always done, and his statistics reflect that.
He was flinging the ball all over the field in Green Bay last January, and the WR's, including Odell, were dropping passes.
Eli Manning has thrown 56 TD's to guys not named Odell over the past three years.
Britt, your argument is convincing, but you are still neglecting the reason as to why those garbage players have had success over the past few years. There is a reason that every team plays cover 2 against the Giants and doubles Odell on every play.
Without Odell, Randle, Cruz, and Donnell don't have jobs. There is a reason none of them are even on a roster as of today. Odell changes everything because he is that good. Look at the game against Minn in 2015 when Odell was suspended or week 1 against Dallas.
Without Odell, Eli has zero success the past few years. It is not just his production, but his presence that is so important to this offense.
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"Odell is the only thing keeping Eli productive" narrative that's getting thrown around here lately, right now.
We all agree that outside of Odell Beckham, the talent around Eli Manning has stunk, yes?
Okay, let's take away Odell's contributions and see what's left.
2014:
Eli Manning: 4410 yards, 30 TD's
Odell Beckham: 1305 yards, 12 TD's
Eli without Odell: 3105 yards, 18 TD's.
2015:
Eli Manning: 4432 yards, 35 TD's
Odell Beckham: 1450 yards, 13 TD's
Eli without Odell: 2982 yards, 22 TD's
2016:
Eli Manning: 4027 yards, 26 TD's
Odell Beckham: 1367 yards, 10 TD's
Eli without Odell: 2660 yards, 16 TD's
Everybody had a down year last year in this boring, unimaginative, stubborn, shit offense. But let's not act like the past three years have been the Odell Beckham show exclusively taking Eli's 3 yard slants to the house every time. Eli is still throwing around to plenty of other bums, and those bums are scoring, too. In fact, it's hard to believe he had those stats when you take Odell's contributions away, really considering the cast of characters involved. Eli is doing what he has always done, and his statistics reflect that.
He was flinging the ball all over the field in Green Bay last January, and the WR's, including Odell, were dropping passes.
Eli Manning has thrown 56 TD's to guys not named Odell over the past three years.
Britt, your argument is convincing, but you are still neglecting the reason as to why those garbage players have had success over the past few years. There is a reason that every team plays cover 2 against the Giants and doubles Odell on every play.
Without Odell, Randle, Cruz, and Donnell don't have jobs. There is a reason none of them are even on a roster as of today. Odell changes everything because he is that good. Look at the game against Minn in 2015 when Odell was suspended or week 1 against Dallas.
Without Odell, Eli has zero success the past few years. It is not just his production, but his presence that is so important to this offense.
They are getting to Eli Manning, forcing him to throw the ball in under 2 seconds, using only 3 or 4 guys, allowing the other 7-8 players to flood all the passing lanes.
It's a lot more complicated than just doubling Odell.
When the other team schemed to take those guys away, Eli still found the open guy, and he still does.
When the other team schemed to take those guys away, Eli still found the open guy, and he still does.
We can agree to disagree. Plax, Nicks and Smith were nowhere near the same caliber receiver as Beckham and yes, those players all had the benefit of a much better offensive line protecting Manning.
The whole offense is broken. Mara brought in McAdoo to basically pad Eli's stats for the HOF. Eli's greatest strength was always his mid-deep passing. Where is the back shoulder throw on the sideline in this offense? What happened to Eli's great deep ball? He doesn't have it anymore, which is why we need to move on.
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There is no way, the Giants are stupid enough to keep Manning and pay his cap, while drafting their qb of the future....it delays the rebuild of the team.....you do not do a rebuild around Manning.....just does not make sense at his age.....
How old was Brett Favre when the Packers drafted Rogers in the 1st round?
so you want us to draft a top qb, but keep Manning, instead of using the Manning money to rebuild the OL? This OL is a mess next year....overpay Pugh, who may be our best, but is nothing special....Overpay Richburg? We finally move Flowers, and he may play no different at RT, and is in his last year? who are the other lineman?.....please do not tell me Wheeler/Bisnowaty/Fluker, etc.
This is about making hard decisions, because they have to be made.....
This is a short passing offense, as evidence by slant, after slant, after slant.
Back shoulder throw? That was a Coughlin Gilbride staple. McAdoo doesn't have that pass in this offense.
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being here.
When the other team schemed to take those guys away, Eli still found the open guy, and he still does.
We can agree to disagree. Plax, Nicks and Smith were nowhere near the same caliber receiver as Beckham and yes, those players all had the benefit of a much better offensive line protecting Manning.
The whole offense is broken. Mara brought in McAdoo to basically pad Eli's stats for the HOF. Eli's greatest strength was always his mid-deep passing. Where is the back shoulder throw on the sideline in this offense? What happened to Eli's great deep ball? He doesn't have it anymore, which is why we need to move on.
You don't know very much about football do you...
In order to complete those passes consistently you need more than 2 seconds to throw...
And dude when you have Les in agreement it certainly diminishes your argument...
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In comment 13648140 Britt in VA said:
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being here.
When the other team schemed to take those guys away, Eli still found the open guy, and he still does.
We can agree to disagree. Plax, Nicks and Smith were nowhere near the same caliber receiver as Beckham and yes, those players all had the benefit of a much better offensive line protecting Manning.
The whole offense is broken. Mara brought in McAdoo to basically pad Eli's stats for the HOF. Eli's greatest strength was always his mid-deep passing. Where is the back shoulder throw on the sideline in this offense? What happened to Eli's great deep ball? He doesn't have it anymore, which is why we need to move on.
You don't know very much about football do you...
In order to complete those passes consistently you need more than 2 seconds to throw...
And dude when you have Les in agreement it certainly diminishes your argument...
Lol sure, I know nothing about football. Yes, you need protection to complete deep passes, but the whole idea of transforming the offense to a WCO was a mistake and took away everything that Eli does well. His biggest weakness was always the short passing game, but lets design an offense based on slants, quick outs and flares to the RB so we can get his completion percentage up.
The entire organization is at fault for letting the offensive line deteriorate to this level, but it still does not change the fact that Eli's salary is making it impossible to fill the gaping holes on the o-line. He is old and does not even have the mid-deep accuracy he used to have. We need to move on.
Eli will be a giant next year. He will start.
The Giants may pick a qb or have Webb sit and watch.
If Eli gets o line help and they get a nice run going and he puts up monster numbers MAYBE he even resigns.
If he doesn't he's done after next year and Giants move on.
I see it as that simple. And I would not be surprised if Giants don't pick a qb and draft tackles and lbs this year and wait to pick qb of future in next draft or deem Webb their heir.
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In comment 13648145 NYG07 said:
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In comment 13648140 Britt in VA said:
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being here.
When the other team schemed to take those guys away, Eli still found the open guy, and he still does.
We can agree to disagree. Plax, Nicks and Smith were nowhere near the same caliber receiver as Beckham and yes, those players all had the benefit of a much better offensive line protecting Manning.
The whole offense is broken. Mara brought in McAdoo to basically pad Eli's stats for the HOF. Eli's greatest strength was always his mid-deep passing. Where is the back shoulder throw on the sideline in this offense? What happened to Eli's great deep ball? He doesn't have it anymore, which is why we need to move on.
You don't know very much about football do you...
In order to complete those passes consistently you need more than 2 seconds to throw...
And dude when you have Les in agreement it certainly diminishes your argument...
Lol sure, I know nothing about football. Yes, you need protection to complete deep passes, but the whole idea of transforming the offense to a WCO was a mistake and took away everything that Eli does well. His biggest weakness was always the short passing game, but lets design an offense based on slants, quick outs and flares to the RB so we can get his completion percentage up.
The entire organization is at fault for letting the offensive line deteriorate to this level, but it still does not change the fact that Eli's salary is making it impossible to fill the gaping holes on the o-line. He is old and does not even have the mid-deep accuracy he used to have. We need to move on.
I'm not going to say you don't know anything about football, I don't know that.
I agree with everything you said that I bolded.
Too much is made about Eli's salary. It didn't prevent us from having 200 million to spend last offseason. How we spent it is another topic, but it is being overstated just how much Eli's salary is holding back the team.
Finally, how can you judge whether he's lost his touch mid range to deep, when you yourself said we've built an offense around short, high completion throws? The truth is, there's no way to tell whether he's lost it, because we just don't see him do it that much.
His arm looks plenty strong to me, and I've seen him drop plenty of deep throws in the bucket this season. Whether the recievers caught them or not is another story (Brandon Marshall).
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In comment 13648154 JCin332 said:
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In comment 13648145 NYG07 said:
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In comment 13648140 Britt in VA said:
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being here.
When the other team schemed to take those guys away, Eli still found the open guy, and he still does.
We can agree to disagree. Plax, Nicks and Smith were nowhere near the same caliber receiver as Beckham and yes, those players all had the benefit of a much better offensive line protecting Manning.
The whole offense is broken. Mara brought in McAdoo to basically pad Eli's stats for the HOF. Eli's greatest strength was always his mid-deep passing. Where is the back shoulder throw on the sideline in this offense? What happened to Eli's great deep ball? He doesn't have it anymore, which is why we need to move on.
You don't know very much about football do you...
In order to complete those passes consistently you need more than 2 seconds to throw...
And dude when you have Les in agreement it certainly diminishes your argument...
Lol sure, I know nothing about football. Yes, you need protection to complete deep passes, but the whole idea of transforming the offense to a WCO was a mistake and took away everything that Eli does well. His biggest weakness was always the short passing game, but lets design an offense based on slants, quick outs and flares to the RB so we can get his completion percentage up.
The entire organization is at fault for letting the offensive line deteriorate to this level, but it still does not change the fact that Eli's salary is making it impossible to fill the gaping holes on the o-line. He is old and does not even have the mid-deep accuracy he used to have. We need to move on.
I'm not going to say you don't know anything about football, I don't know that.
I agree with everything you said that I bolded.
Too much is made about Eli's salary. It didn't prevent us from having 200 million to spend last offseason. How we spent it is another topic, but it is being overstated just how much Eli's salary is holding back the team.
Finally, how can you judge whether he's lost his touch mid range to deep, when you yourself said we've built an offense around short, high completion throws? The truth is, there's no way to tell whether he's lost it, because we just don't see him do it that much.
His arm looks plenty strong to me, and I've seen him drop plenty of deep throws in the bucket this season. Whether the recievers caught them or not is another story (Brandon Marshall).
Britt, it is not about his arm strength. It is about his deep ball accuracy. When Eli was in his prime, we consistently hit big yardage chunk plays downfield. Aside from the one deep pass to Beckham in the TB game on the final drive or the drop by Marshall in the Lions game, I can't think of one time he threw an accurate pass deep.
McAdoo's offense is built on 3 step drops and getting the ball out of the QB's hands as quickly as possible. 5 yard passes. Nickle and diming you.
They are polar opposite offenses, you said it yourself. It's not that Eli himself can't do it, it's that he's not asked to do it. And frankly, we don't have many in the playbook, at least from what I've seen.
I look at his arm strength and decision making. Those are the areas in which I look for decline, and I'm not seeing it from him, individually.
McAdoo's offense is built on 3 step drops and getting the ball out of the QB's hands as quickly as possible. 5 yard passes. Nickle and diming you.
They are polar opposite offenses, you said it yourself. It's not that Eli himself can't do it, it's that he's not asked to do it. And frankly, we don't have many in the playbook, at least from what I've seen.
Yes I am getting what you are saying to me. While this offense is built around a short passing game, there are still deep passes, none of which are completed. If you want to put that all on the offensive line, so be it.
After the disastrous defense of 2015, Reese had no choice but to spend big on the defense, which led to a playoff appearance last year with multiple all pro designations. In hindsight, he should have balanced the spending with offensive line improvement. I love Eli and always will, but he is a part of the problem right now. He did everything he could to pull the Giants back to win the Philly, TB and SD games, but had he played better from the start, it would not have come down to those final drives.
I'm telling you right now, it's fine to talk about trading him, cutting him, etc...
But the reality is that he's going to be here next year, starting.
I'm telling you right now, it's fine to talk about trading him, cutting him, etc...
But the reality is that he's going to be here next year, starting.
You are 100% right, JPP is the most overpaid, under performing player on the roster, and releasing him in the off season is not feasible.
But trading/releasing Manning frees up $10M. Maybe you are right, maybe he will be under center at the start of the 2018 season, and it would be a mistake IMO. It would do nothing but delay the rebuild of this great organization.
Monday is gonna be a nightmare here. There is just way too much wrong with this offense right now.
Or "I know he has 2 SB's but he has made many boneheaded throws that cost them games.."
Or " I don't want to hear about the 2 SB's he's been very inaccurate..."
And I wish I had 5 dollars for every "dimbulb" that posts that this team can continue to win with an old inaccurate immobile quarterback that is shell shocked and can't get the job done anymore.
With that said he still has ability and will be allowed to play untill his contract is up. Giants franchise won't do him dirty (unless reese and Mac stay and make him a sacrificial lamb). He also is most likely less risky than a new starter so Giants being risk averse will play him. Plus they do have a lot of loyalty.
I don't see a drop off...I may be wrong but no one can say until you fix those 2 things...
And no QB in this league would be successful in the current situation...
JFC, does every discussion on Eli Manning have to be about his all time legacy? The guy is top 10 all time in every major statistical category and I have already stated I believe he is a HOFer.
But the guy is not any good anymore. He finished what 26th in QBR last year on an 11-5 team with an all time talent in Beckham at WR? Stop clinging to the past. Eli was absolutely brilliant in 2011, one of the best seasons I have ever seen at QB. That player is gone. Lets move on and look to the future and how we can win superbowls beyond Eli Manning.
Eli still has at least 3 good years left but no one is going to change their mind on the issue.
If they draft his replacement, I hope he finds success with another team in '19 and I'm sure he will.
Last time took 17 years...
I guess it would be a top 3 pick .
If it were possible to get a #1 a #2 and a starter for a position of need .
The second #1 would be a LT and you could then look for
a LB DE or whatever falls there way .
Let Eli finish his contract and then have Webb groomed to
Start . I have no idea what OBJ would bring in a trade but
if somehow we blow the 1st round pick on a QB were screwed
this way you have a generational RB that would still put
fannies in the seat and get the O=line up to snuff with a running game . We would have the added cap space after Eli
retires and won't have to pay the Mega Bucks that OBJ will command
Eli still has value......a smart GM out there with an average/or less qb, knows that Eli could be that missing piece....you give him a decent OL and a running game, and he can still produce.....the Giants do not have the time to do this....
If we get a high pick, and there is a shot at a franchise qb, take advantage of it.....Trade Eli while he has value....it gets rid of his salary, will get some draft pick(s), and that money can be invested in the OL in FAcy....
Wake up people, the draft is not going to do it, instantly......after the second round, we basically have hit on nothing....and our first and second rounders, outside of OBj, are either not as good as expected, or just need more time to develop.....we have this plug and play mentality, where our draft picks are just going out there and will be starters....sometimes they are starters, out of necessity or desperation....but the level they play at is not starter level....
So trade Eli, if we are making a decisive move for the future.....keep him, if you want to build an offense around him.....but stop this mentor bullshit, at the cost of rebuilding the OL....
The Gibbs skins won super bowls with three different starters. So maybe we could use that as a silly notion to change our qb up every three-four years.
And no one knows how long he has viable starter time left. 3 years? Let's see how he looks at the end of next year and where the team overall is at.
Eli will be fine if you give him a running game and a pocket to step up in. People want to compare Eli and Peyton’s late careers but look deeper. Eli doesn’t have a neck injury like Peyton yet. Of course in this offense, he may get killed Sunday night.
Eli will be fine if you give him a running game and a pocket to step up in. People want to compare Eli and Peyton’s late careers but look deeper. Eli doesn’t have a neck injury like Peyton yet. Of course in this offense, he may get killed Sunday night.
It's a tough call. Look at the market for recent C and OG FA's. That's a lot of money to tie up in guys who haven't really helped the OL situation and who have had injury issues. They probably could and should keep Pugh but that's it.
Flowers hasn't been good. There are no good FA's this year. That leaves the draft to upgrade 3-4 positions.
The only way this OL gets good is if Reese or someone else strikes gold on late round picks or the Giants trade down for a bunch of premium picks.
First, though, a new GM and coach may have to decide whether Eli can be the cornerstone of their rebuilding program. If it comes to that, I suspect the answer will be "no", as it was with the unloved, limited, but much younger Kerry Collins. Assuming Eli's replacement is drafted at the top of Round 1 in 2018, Manning is probably done here. Webb is a more logical bridge to the new franchise QB, since he might have some upside and will at least be cap-controlled as the backup through until 2021.
I've been watching and timing a few QBs and offenses - many get the same amount of time and are successful. Difference I see is late game our line is not able to sustain blocks when it is known the pass is coming. The other teams do not break down as quickly.
The other QBs are more accurate in their quick throws. It only takes missing a few passes to lose a game, i.e. Missing a third down pass to kill a drive.
That means new GM, HC & QB. they can move on from Eli
at this point. A lot of QB's don't finish their career
with the same team. If they are going to get a top 3 pick,
which is certainly plausible at this point, might not have that chance again for awhile (you never know).
So if they want to move him at the end of the season,
that's fine with me. The way this organization does things,
it would be shocking if it happened during the season.