All you tear it all down, start from the top, clean slate, no more half measures, empty the empty suits, blah blah blah morons....
Who was the last team to win a Super Bowl following this method?
Was it New England, Seattle, Green Bay, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, New Orleans, Baltimore?
The closest would maybe be Denver, who went all in for Peyton, but really didn't "blow it up". They'll remain competitive due to a talented defense but they're still searching for a franchise QB, and are really no post season threat.
Next question: All you trade down, trade Eli, trade DRC, trade OBJ, WE MUST ACCUMULATE PICKS ding dongs... if the team is in this mess due to poor drafting, how does trading productive assets for more picks to be wasted help?
Solution: Shut up and work. Young players will get opportunities and experience. Coaching is now forced to adapt schemes to the players who are still hungry and competitive. Front office gets to evaluate both players and coaches during gut check circumstances. Those that fold will be gone. Those that don't will have improved.
There'll be some additions and subtractions to players, coaches, and evaluators and the 2018 Giants will enter the season in the same boat as 95% of the other teams. All with a shot.
NFL life goes on.
Micko : 4:55 pm : link : reply
Thanks Captain Obvious
Micko ripping Mako
Jints in Carolina : 5:00 pm : link : reply
.
All you blow hards
Gregorio : 5:04 pm : link : reply
"morons and ding dongs", ... what a way to invite a dialogue. Bye bye.
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Danny Kanell : 5:09 pm : link : reply
Really productive way to engage a conversation.
Cool.
Keaton028 : 5:09 pm : link : reply
So everyone who doesn't subscribe to your philosophy is a moron. Got it.
2) Trading down is fine if there is a new GM and staff in place to manage those picks.
3) I am not advocating trading Manning...but if this regime stays in place and drafts a QB #1, I am in favor of it. For his sake and the Giants.
Seemingly never ending post after post regurgitating the problems with only emotionally charged short sighted solutions offered finally got to me.
Seemingly never ending post after post regurgitating the problems with only emotionally charged short sighted solutions offered finally got to me.
Blowing it up isn't short-sighted. It's realizing there's too much rotten to rebuild quickly, under the same people who have led us here.
When was the last team that missed the playoffs 5/6 years, rock bottoming out at a likely 2-14/1-15/0-16, that stayed the course that turned it around quickly?
The Pats fired their GM, head coach and staff when they hired Belichick?
Seemingly never ending post after post regurgitating the problems with only emotionally charged short sighted solutions offered finally got to me.
So, why not delete this crap and repost?
2) Trading down is fine if there is a new GM and staff in place to manage those picks.
3) I am not advocating trading Manning...but if this regime stays in place and drafts a QB #1, I am in favor of it. For his sake and the Giants.
This seems reasonable to me. The Giants are garbage now, NFL bottom feeders. This does bring some opportunity to with good draft position etc. Why would anyone want Reese who has presided over this failure to be the one leading the Giants during this important period where the repercussions good or bad will be felt for seasons to come? He has to go.
Why would any new GM want McAdoo? He will be gone as well.
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There was no need to name call.
Seemingly never ending post after post regurgitating the problems with only emotionally charged short sighted solutions offered finally got to me.
Blowing it up isn't short-sighted. It's realizing there's too much rotten to rebuild quickly, under the same people who have led us here.
When was the last team that missed the playoffs 5/6 years, rock bottoming out at a likely 2-14/1-15/0-16, that stayed the course that turned it around quickly?
Year two of a new coach after a successful rookie season...and no one knows how many wins will come this year.
2) Trading down is fine if there is a new GM and staff in place to manage those picks.
3) I am not advocating trading Manning...but if this regime stays in place and drafts a QB #1, I am in favor of it. For his sake and the Giants.
So an entirely knew gm, player personnel, scouting, training, and coaching staff?
When has that ever happened and worked? Expansion teams?
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The Pats blew it up when they hired Belichick as coach and GM. How has that worked out?
The Pats fired their GM, head coach and staff when they hired Belichick?
They hired Pioli at the same time, but gave Belichick final say over personnel decisions. If memory serves they let Belichick clean house
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In comment 13648478 mfsd said:
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The Pats blew it up when they hired Belichick as coach and GM. How has that worked out?
The Pats fired their GM, head coach and staff when they hired Belichick?
They hired Pioli at the same time, but gave Belichick final say over personnel decisions. If memory serves they let Belichick clean house
Just looked it up, they fired Pete Carroll after the previous season, then fired the previous GM after that year’s draft. Looks like they also changed most of the coaching staff.
The point being...it can work if you bring in the right people
And how about the 1989 Cowboys trading Herschel and triggering a dynasty after going 1-15?
Not every organization is as dumb as the Cleveland Browns.
Furthermore, where do the scouts come from? Have they been scouting players to fit this new coaches schemes, someone else's schemes, some other GM's checklist?
Again, has your operation improved?
Furthermore, where do the scouts come from? Have they been scouting players to fit this new coaches schemes, someone else's schemes, some other GM's checklist?
Again, has your operation improved?
Fair points, bc Kraft had no problem giving Belichik full control, and he and Pioli obviously worked well together for several years.
It’s highly doubtful the Mara’s would give any coach full control over personnel
And how about the 1989 Cowboys trading Herschel and triggering a dynasty after going 1-15?
Not every organization is as dumb as the Cleveland Browns.
TC certainly changed the culture, but the front office wasn't overthrown. I wouldn't consider the Fassel to Coughlin transition a blow up.
No I don't see it. Not yet at least. My only beefs with Mac are his shots at Eli and him not joining the med staff on the field with OBJ.
From my seat, I see a coach that showed faith in a position group to improve and was let down. I see a coach who's offense has played better after it was clear no improvement had been made and adjustments were needed. Is he stubborn, sure. He probably knows despite his own struggles, he's still the best play caller amongst the staff and he's working to improve.
Reese has been solid overall w 1st and 2nd round picks. He sucks after the 2nd. It's perfectly reasonable to think Reese or any new GM could improve this team at the right spots with a bunch of high picks this year and next year.
Reese has been solid overall w 1st and 2nd round picks. He sucks after the 2nd. It's perfectly reasonable to think Reese or any new GM could improve this team at the right spots with a bunch of high picks this year and next year.
His first round picks have not been as good lately.
Prince Amukumara, David Wilson, Ereck Flowers, and Eli Apple are 4 of his last 6 first rounders ...
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Your trade down point doesn't make sense. If the GM can't make good picks, why is it better to let him pick the next franchise QB vs a slew of 1st/2nd round picks?
Reese has been solid overall w 1st and 2nd round picks. He sucks after the 2nd. It's perfectly reasonable to think Reese or any new GM could improve this team at the right spots with a bunch of high picks this year and next year.
His first round picks have not been as good lately.
Prince Amukumara, David Wilson, Ereck Flowers, and Eli Apple are 4 of his last 6 first rounders ...
But yet you want this guy picking our franchise QB for the foreseeable future?
The biggest problem being an alarming inability to evaluate and/or develop OL.
That is a huge problem, and I don't see it going away under this regime.
Denver did a complete overhaul haul when they hired Elway as GM...
In 2013 the Kansas City Chiefs hired Andy Reid and GM John Dorsey. Have completely revamped the team and are currently undefeated.
Anything else?
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In comment 13648631 WillVAB said:
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Your trade down point doesn't make sense. If the GM can't make good picks, why is it better to let him pick the next franchise QB vs a slew of 1st/2nd round picks?
Reese has been solid overall w 1st and 2nd round picks. He sucks after the 2nd. It's perfectly reasonable to think Reese or any new GM could improve this team at the right spots with a bunch of high picks this year and next year.
His first round picks have not been as good lately.
Prince Amukumara, David Wilson, Ereck Flowers, and Eli Apple are 4 of his last 6 first rounders ...
But yet you want this guy picking our franchise QB for the foreseeable future?
I certainly don't. At this point I don't even want him signing practice squad players. I want him, Ross, Mara, and McAdoo gone.
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I think people are getting a little carried away with what our problems are as a team. Not that this year hasn't disappointed as much as possible, but we're still a talented team, if unlucky and somewhat poorly organized under Mac.
The biggest problem being an alarming inability to evaluate and/or develop OL.
That is a huge problem, and I don't see it going away under this regime.
I don't know if it's evaluation of talent as much as it's evaluation of the unit as a whole. Flowers seems to be showing that he's talented enough to play as a tackle (obviously, consensus seems to indicate RT would be a more ideal fit), and Pugh has shown versatility and the ability to play at a high level at those several spots. I think the bigger issue is the lack of FA investment at the position. The failed signing of Schwartz seems to have handicapped the FO more than it should have imo. I think we need to re-sign Pugh and bring in another top OL FA at any position on the line. If they can find a LT in FA great but if Pugh is going to be our lunchpail left tackle, I think that'd be alright.
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They were 4-4, the wheels came off, lost last 8 in a row. That got Fassel fired. Brought in Coughlin. Because the Giants finished 4-12, they had a pick low enough to entice San Diego to trade them Eli. And Coughlin laid the foundation for a team that would go on to win 2 Super Bowls. So...there's that.
And how about the 1989 Cowboys trading Herschel and triggering a dynasty after going 1-15?
Not every organization is as dumb as the Cleveland Browns.
TC certainly changed the culture, but the front office wasn't overthrown. I wouldn't consider the Fassel to Coughlin transition a blow up.
Front office wasn't blown up but Accorsi made a big move by making Reese Director of College scouting. That's when things started to change for us. The Shockey draft was the last for Marv S. and then in came Reese, who changed how we go about scouting. I posted an article long time away when it was on Giants.com.
Denver did a complete overhaul haul when they hired Elway as GM...
In 2013 the Kansas City Chiefs hired Andy Reid and GM John Dorsey. Have completely revamped the team and are currently undefeated.
Anything else?
Seattle may be the first real good example. A little unconventional considering they hired a big name college coach first and then hired a young up and coming GM. That combination has been successful.
Denver is interesting. They tried to blow it up, hired Josh Mcdaniels as head coach and GM and it blew up in their face. Then Elway brought in Fox and went after Peyton. He then canned Fox and hired Kubiak (who I wanted as OC to replace Gilbride) and got a ring.
Didn't Kansas City replace Dorsey this year?
Quality post finding some recent case studies. Since you asked, how about throwing some names out there to hire after it's blown up.
They can't do that with the current stale FO. A new GM...maybe even a good candidate...would want that in place and pose that in an interview.
It is likely too late but Mc needs to stop being MikeMc and be a HC who...if he can become a good one...can pick his card back up in a few years. FO needed to not saddle him (see stale FO)
with Spags and Quinn( who may be contributing culprits to his failure).
GM and top staff....HC and coaches....and likely several square peg players going =a necessary blowup.
For fans it'll mean watching a lot of SUCK for 32-48 games but with a likely arrow up...as opposed to the last 60 with an arrow straight down.
We have a decent base to build on.
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In comment 13648628 adamg said:
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I think people are getting a little carried away with what our problems are as a team. Not that this year hasn't disappointed as much as possible, but we're still a talented team, if unlucky and somewhat poorly organized under Mac.
The biggest problem being an alarming inability to evaluate and/or develop OL.
That is a huge problem, and I don't see it going away under this regime.
I don't know if it's evaluation of talent as much as it's evaluation of the unit as a whole. Flowers seems to be showing that he's talented enough to play as a tackle (obviously, consensus seems to indicate RT would be a more ideal fit), and Pugh has shown versatility and the ability to play at a high level at those several spots. I think the bigger issue is the lack of FA investment at the position. The failed signing of Schwartz seems to have handicapped the FO more than it should have imo. I think we need to re-sign Pugh and bring in another top OL FA at any position on the line. If they can find a LT in FA great but if Pugh is going to be our lunchpail left tackle, I think that'd be alright.
While there has admittedly been a lot of doom and gloom here recently, this post is overly optimistic to the point of naivety.
Pugh has not shown the ability to "play at a high level at several spots." At best he as proven to be passable, and maybe above average, but inconsistent at LG. He hasn't played at a high level at any position.
Also on the subject of Pugh, we need to stop insisting that he is a real option at LT. He hasn't come close to proving that he can play that position at this level. If he had, Flowers never would have been overdrafted.
Pugh is painfully overrated around here. Embarrassingly overrated.
Also, your assertion that a lack of FA investment at OL is the problem is beside the point. They have invested heavily in the OL with high draft picks, and have come up empty handed. That casts serious doubt on their ability to choose OL. With 2 first rounders and a second rounder on the line a huge FA investment shouldn't have been necessary.
It's also an overly optimistic appraisal of Flowers to say that he is "showing that he is talented enough to play tackle". After 2 games of not sucking? He was undeniably awful for 30 plus games, color me skeptical. Maube let's see if he can string together a few more?
Seems to me the norm when countering different points of view, lazy and ineffective, but that s what we often get here
Seemingly never ending post after post regurgitating the problems with only emotionally charged short sighted solutions offered finally got to me.
As soon as you come to terms that the Eli Manning era is over for SB contention we can talk. Eli is old and wearing down even if this mess is not all on him. The team is going to be cap strapped and his salary makes it even harder. The defense has tons of money and is broken. The offense is terrible led by Eli who cant make the offense better at this point of his career. The Giants need to clean house and suck for a few years to build a young team with talen to boot and no regime along with what I hope is a top 3 pick and a stud franchise qb who will lead this organization for the next 15 years.
It is over for this era...You just clinging on with no hope
With a newbie head coach, one that few people had heard of, Jerrys mistaken views, possibly, have been allowed to filter down the chain and delude and misguide the coaching.
Possibly giving Macadoo a false sense of security, that, as long as he followed what, after all is his boss basically, que's that all would be ok in his career here.
But then, reality has a way of dealing with those sorts of things.
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There was no need to name call.
Seemingly never ending post after post regurgitating the problems with only emotionally charged short sighted solutions offered finally got to me.
As soon as you come to terms that the Eli Manning era is over for SB contention we can talk. Eli is old and wearing down even if this mess is not all on him. The team is going to be cap strapped and his salary makes it even harder. The defense has tons of money and is broken. The offense is terrible led by Eli who cant make the offense better at this point of his career. The Giants need to clean house and suck for a few years to build a young team with talen to boot and no regime along with what I hope is a top 3 pick and a stud franchise qb who will lead this organization for the next 15 years.
It is over for this era...You just clinging on with no hope
First, I don't agree that the Eli window is closed. Second, the young stud future QB may already be on the roster.
The idea that this ownership can improve the entire football operations in one offseason is shakey. Those wonderfully talented individuals have to be available and willing to come. Even if you catch the shooting stars, how do they handle the mind blowing amount of adversity the current staff has faced? No ones trajectory is a steady climb.
2-3 years of suck then the NFL lays down, injuries stop, and all the drafted players continue this meteoric rise to greatness because they were selected by a genius GM. That's how you see it right?
Wish I could live in fantasy land.
This whole DRC thing by him was handled as pathetic as possible. And he doesn't give DRC enough playing time but he's too poor of a coach to have figured that out yet. Same goes for his minimal use of Vareen and several other players.
He has favorites and they are not actually the better candidates at their positions and this is one of many reasons why we are losing. MaAdoo is involved in most of the other reasons we are losing as well.
They hire Bill Belichick and Scott Pioli....
I forget how that turned out. Can you google it for me, thanks m'kay?
How long are you going to keep fucking that chicken until someone comes up to you and says, "Hey maybe you should stop fucking that chicken because it's dead"?