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Why Did This Game Feel So Different?

arcarsenal : 10/16/2017 12:54 am
Because we ran the football.

We gained 148 yards on the ground and ran for 4.6 yards a clip on the best rushing defense in football.

Coming into tonight, Denver was allowing 2.4 YPA. They had allowed just 203 rush yards in 4 games and 0 rushing TD's.

This is the same defense that made Ezekiel Elliott pretty much quit just 3 weeks ago.

This season could have been much different if we had identified the offensive linemen who could block, the backs who could find holes, and made more of an effort to establish a ground game from jump street. But we didn't. We decided to simply hand jobs to guys who didn't earn them.

No one is going to mistake this line for Dallas or even call them "good" - but it's pretty clear that we went into this season with the wrong configuration.

It's also pretty clear that McAdoo should have given up the playcalling some time ago.

It makes such a massive difference when you can get a few first downs and run the football in this league. Even if you don't score on every drive. Just pushing possession and helping out your defense is a big deal. The way this team was playing early in the season was fucking impossible.

It's too little too late now - but it's tough because I think a lot of us knew this team shouldn't have been 0-5.

Hard to be mad about the Giants winning a football game.. but it's fucking frustrating that we are where we are now.
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RE: For the run game  
section125 : 10/16/2017 6:44 am : link
In comment 13651188 jeff57 said:
Quote:
Fluker s and Pugh on the right side is a drastic improvement over Herrera and Hart.


The Giants were running well to the right last week when Hart was at RT. No doubt Pugh is the better RT, but don't dismiss what happened last week.
It felt different  
Dave on the UWS : 10/16/2017 6:45 am : link
because the HC was there for the whole team. He let his coordinators run their areas. He made the correct decisions on who to play (OL). He set the tone and the players played hard for 60 min. If the only thing that comes out of this season is 1. Mac showing he CAN be the coach and 2. Identifying who is part of the solution than thatís enough at this point.
It felt like last year's team  
Tim in Eternal Blue : 10/16/2017 6:59 am : link
to be honest.

We finally had a pass rush so our defensive backfield could make some plays.

The defense needs the pass rush to be successful
Also -- this was a trap game for Denver  
David B. : 10/16/2017 7:35 am : link
Everyone thought they were going to pound the woeful 0-5 Giants with their depleted roster. A desperate, winless team can be dangerous in such situations, and for whatever reason it took this long, the Giants FINALLY were.

Yeah, the OL looked better. Maybe Sullivan was a difference. Hell, John Jerry even played better on the left side. Darkwah ran better, Engram had a great night, and most importantly, this was the first time the D actually played remotely close to what people expected them to look like this year.

They almost looked like the team they were expected to be this year. Except for the lack of Beckham, Vernon, Marshall, Sheppard, DRC etc.

Looked to me  
BobOnLI : 10/16/2017 7:42 am : link
There were many fewer missed tackles.
9-7 Believe it and it will happen  
nybeast : 10/16/2017 7:43 am : link
I called 9-7 from beginning. Without Beckham it will be difficult but what I saw something of a rally cry last night with the team around the situation their in. Seeing that they put Beckham's helmet out there and seeing how the schedule is not looking so fearsome these next 7 games, suggests to me the Giants have a shot. Keep in mind our defense doesn't have one debilitating injury and this was the number 2 defense last year in points allowed. If they can find that and the offense can do what it did last night, who knows....
RE: It felt different  
smshmth8690 : 10/16/2017 7:46 am : link
In comment 13651210 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
because the HC was there for the whole team. He let his coordinators run their areas. He made the correct decisions on who to play (OL). He set the tone and the players played hard for 60 min. If the only thing that comes out of this season is 1. Mac showing he CAN be the coach and 2. Identifying who is part of the solution than thatís enough at this point.


Let's call it Complimentary Coaching, that's where it starts. Glad to see the HC took his head out of his ass this week.
Trap game they say  
blueblood'11 : 10/16/2017 7:47 am : link
I get it but donít forget there was much expected from this Giants team at the beginning of the year. So too bad if you take them lightly. They are capable and early on they told Denver we arenít fucking around. We are here to play some football and they did all night long. So Iím not buying the trap game bullshit. And letís not forget that Denver was fresher then the Giants just coming off a buy week. Plus they had the advantage also of playing at altitude.
For everyone advocating firing Reese..  
Sean : 10/16/2017 8:13 am : link
after tonight the problem looks more to be coaching. This team has talent.
the NFL is in bizarro land  
GMAN4LIFE : 10/16/2017 8:27 am : link
so many injuries. So many teams blowing it. Even the saints almost blew the game and the Falcons actually blew the game.

its weird
As far as I'm concerned  
gidiefor : Mod : 10/16/2017 8:33 am : link
the team we always knew was there showed up last night

The biggest change was the O line configuration and Sully making the play calls

This game was the defense coming back to life  
jcn56 : 10/16/2017 8:39 am : link
Everyone's going to point towards the playcalling on O, the OL - but let's face it, the O was a placeholder last night. They did an admirable job against a tough D, on the road with guys at WR who needed Eli to show them how to run routes before the game (kidding, but that's how NBC wanted you to take it based on that segment).

The D, minus DRC and Vernon, came out, ugh, "heavy handed" and "bullied" the other team off the field. They got after the QB, they stopped the run, and they wrapped up all over the field.

This was the D we knew we had, the question is - where the fuck were these guys for the first few weeks of the season? I hate to say first few, for the first couple of weeks I felt they did a very good job, despite being hung out to dry by a completely dysfunctional offense. But the next 3 games were an absolute abomination, and I still can't figure out why Spags hasn't eaten more shit over it to date.
Ultimately  
gmen9892 : 10/16/2017 8:59 am : link
The Giants just hit their first shot in a beer pong game, to avoid the shutout and having to run around the house naked.

I also want to say this with all honesty, that was the best feeling after a W I have had in the past 2 years. None of the 11 wins last year were this decisive (against a very good opponent), and it was shocking/awesome to watch. Just wish we won one of the previous 3 and we would have a season right now.
Blue colored glasses  
Bluesbreaker : 10/16/2017 9:09 am : link
For everyone advocating firing Reese..
Sean : 8:13 am : link : reply
after tonight the problem looks more to be coaching. This team has talent.

Reese drafting has been terrible that why we have little to no depth . We had 12 first downs the WR's caught two balls .
We won the game in the trenches as in part to Pugh moving to RT and inserting Fluker . Hart needs to stay on the bench
he is not a RT . Was happy for Darkwa because he is always injured . The pick six gave us some breathing room and the run game aided in the TOP keeping the defense from wearing out they still hung 400 yards of passing . Apple finally played a decent game he had 3 passes defended and made some good stops .
...  
christian : 10/16/2017 9:13 am : link
Denver also made some poor decisions. On 4th and goal down 17 they should have absolutely taken the points.

The defense is not a dominant unit, but can have dominant stretches. The offense needs to move the football at an average clip and this D will resemble last year's. Lots of bend, timely turnovers and lockdown red zone play.

The biggest difference last night was no head scratching, stomach turning turn over.
100% with jcn on this  
Greg from LI : 10/16/2017 9:18 am : link
The offense was better than expected, yes, but the real story here is how the defense suddenly looked like the monster that they were last year. Where was that effort in the first five weeks?
They wanted to win for your birthday.  
BrettNYG10 : 10/16/2017 9:19 am : link
.
This team could very easily be 3-3 or 4-2  
BlueHurricane : 10/16/2017 9:22 am : link
Hell at 2-4 we would feel a lot different about this team. Don't be shocked if they go on a little win stream just to make the beginning of the season even more maddening.
This game feels different  
Dan in the Springs : 10/16/2017 9:42 am : link
because the Giants won and while it may seem like they won big, that was only because they got up early. This is what made it feel different throughout the game. The early offensive success - if you swapped all the late 3 and outs for the early offensive success it would have felt similar.

On defense, after weeks of waiting for it, we finally saw some big plays on defense with the pick-6, Collins' interception, and the goal-line stand.

This game was closer than the scoreboard might indicate. Take away the pick-6, the missed and blocked FG's by Denver, and give them the TD that was so close the replay officials couldn't confirm one way or the other, and this game probably would have been lost by the NYG.

I'm glad they won, they deserved to win. They also were very close to winning the previous three weeks. They just couldn't catch the breaks, didn't score early, and couldn't get a big defensive stop or play in those previous three games. Football fans should realize those things were going to happen, but also shouldn't count on them happening every week.
As was said on another thread...  
Britt in VA : 10/16/2017 9:44 am : link
it felt different because the Giants played like they had an identity on offense for the first time in a long time.
RE: This game feels different  
gmen9892 : 10/16/2017 10:01 am : link
In comment 13651470 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
because the Giants won and while it may seem like they won big, that was only because they got up early. This is what made it feel different throughout the game. The early offensive success - if you swapped all the late 3 and outs for the early offensive success it would have felt similar.

On defense, after weeks of waiting for it, we finally saw some big plays on defense with the pick-6, Collins' interception, and the goal-line stand.

This game was closer than the scoreboard might indicate. Take away the pick-6, the missed and blocked FG's by Denver, and give them the TD that was so close the replay officials couldn't confirm one way or the other, and this game probably would have been lost by the NYG.

I'm glad they won, they deserved to win. They also were very close to winning the previous three weeks. They just couldn't catch the breaks, didn't score early, and couldn't get a big defensive stop or play in those previous three games. Football fans should realize those things were going to happen, but also shouldn't count on them happening every week.


Dan, you can play the if's and but's game in about 95% of the NFL games played. Most are tightly contested and could go either way. I dont think it was a matter of the game being close or not that made this W feel good. We saw 11 W's last year, and I dont think any of them felt as good as this one. As mentioned before, the Giants were able to establish a run game, pass-block with 2 competent looking Tackles, and play a sound defensive football game. It was a sight to see. Unfortunately, probably a tad too late.
Coughlin was all about balance on offense  
Heisenberg : 10/16/2017 10:02 am : link
It makes you wonder if this adjustment might have come earlier if we hadn't shown him the door.
This felt like a Coughlin offense  
spike : 10/16/2017 11:16 am : link
Than macadoo. Maybe its because of Sullivan

Simien sucks. Hes a big reason why they lost
They've had the lead with 3 minutes left each of the past 4 weeks.  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 10/16/2017 11:23 am : link
If the DEFENSE had played better at the end of those games, they'd be a minimum of 3-3 right now. Sully did a good job, but whoever was calling the game was going to have to use a ton of 2 TE personnel groupings and feature Evan Engram. It's not like Sully had the full roster and decided to do this. In addition, let's stop pretending they never ran the ball when Mac was calling plays. In the final month last year, Perkins AND Rashad Jennings averaged 15 carries per game each.

They lose and the coach gets killed. They win and the coach gets killed. Classic BBI.
RE: RE: arc...  
clatterbuck : 10/16/2017 12:09 pm : link
In comment 13651128 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13651114 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Well said.

Manning only completed 11 passes. We only gained 12 first downs. But it FELT different. That all said, this offense has a long way to go.

The Giants really have botched the OL situation for some time now. It's not only a talent issue, but as folks have pointed out, THE COACHES (unless they were being pressured by the front office) picked the wrong configuration.

They killed the season with the first five losses. Right now, I'm happy they won, but in a way, it feels like another kick to the balls because three of the five losses were games where we had 4th quarter leads. If our OL had been configured better... if Tom Quinn's special teams did have a huge hand in four of the losses... if the defense could have held the lead in three of those losses...

Oh well.




You know what I mean... this game had a totally different feel - this was the first time all year where I felt like on both sides of the ball, we were going to do what we had to do.

It felt like the Giants came into this game, had a game plan, and followed through with it.

Like I said before, it's just frustrating because I feel like this team should never have been in this 0-5 hole to start. But it's too late now and here we are.


Maybe the different "feel" just comes down to the basics of winning physical battles, not getting blown up, making blocks, getting off blocks, not making dumbass mental mistakes, not whiffing on tackles, you know, competency.
RE: You cannot look at the attempts in a bubble.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/16/2017 12:24 pm : link
In comment 13651173 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
Tampa: 49 pass attempts
LA: 36 attempts
Denver: 19 attempts

It is more about the ratio.




While there's some merit to that, the ratio from last night is completely unsustainable for the purposes of winning in most cases. You aren't going to go anywhere meaningful if you cannot establish a pass offense, thus a balanced offense. You can bet the next team will be keying for the run and it won't be a "trap game". A run heavy offense that can't pass when they have to is easily defended. They're not at the point where they can confidently run even when the opponent knows it's coming. Even last night, a good night for running, plenty of plays got stuffed at or behind the line. That plan also won't work if they fall behind and don't have a defense that's creating turnovers and actually scoring.
The offense  
BigBlueHens : 10/16/2017 12:27 pm : link
felt like it was back to the way they ran in when Eli was younger. They played under center, ran the ball, and then hit some play action passes.

Sullivan had a bunch of two tight end sets. The offensive line shakeup was a big factor, but it felt like they were playing smash mouth football last night.

Mac's dink and dunk west coast offense wasn't there, and it gave the guys confidence. It also made some former players happy. Diehl, Tuck and Dave Tollefson were on twitter making comments like these.
Hey - when is the last time the Giants had a third and long run to  
gidiefor : Mod : 10/16/2017 12:57 pm : link
ice the game!!!
The Broncos  
Carson53 : 10/16/2017 12:58 pm : link
got caught napping, no OBJ, no Marshall, no Sheppard, no problem....as they say, on any given Sunday.
It figures, when I don't put the game on until 10 minutes left, they win.
It's better then the alternative, still see 1-6 heading into their bye week.
The Seahawks won't be napping.
RE: Hey - when is the last time the Giants had a third and long run to  
Carson53 : 10/16/2017 1:02 pm : link
In comment 13651917 gidiefor said:
Quote:
ice the game!!!
.

Why did Mac kick a field goal with 29 seconds left is
a better question? Geez, I wonder what could go wrong
there? Just saying.
RE: The offense  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/16/2017 1:20 pm : link
In comment 13651863 BigBlueHens said:
Quote:
felt like it was back to the way they ran in when Eli was younger. They played under center, ran the ball, and then hit some play action passes.

Sullivan had a bunch of two tight end sets. The offensive line shakeup was a big factor, but it felt like they were playing smash mouth football last night.

Mac's dink and dunk west coast offense wasn't there, and it gave the guys confidence. It also made some former players happy. Diehl, Tuck and Dave Tollefson were on twitter making comments like these.


It always feels like "smash mouth football" when it works.
Because,  
oldog : 10/16/2017 1:55 pm : link
it was.
Some important players got healthy  
JonC : 10/16/2017 3:04 pm : link
whole team was mentally ready to play. And, getting some of the slumping divas off the field was addition by subtraction.

Being a self-important shithead was a distraction, they need to nip that shit.
Meaning over the first 5 games  
JonC : 10/16/2017 3:06 pm : link
they toned it down last night, but Apple is one who needs to shut his piehole.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/16/2017 6:40 pm : link
We played the run much better - but Semien threw for nearly 400 yards. I'm not sure the defense deserves THAT much praise. But they did force turnovers and they made plays when plays had to be made. Finally got to the QB a few times as well.

More importantly, we didn't turn the ball over.

I think my point was that the coaches may have made a pretty costly error by not being able to figure out our best OL configuration until it was a bit too late. It's also probably safe to say that it was evident McAdoo should have stopped calling plays some time ago.

His stubbornness probably hurt this football team a bit this year.
I thought the defense played really well  
Go Terps : 10/16/2017 6:52 pm : link
I give JPP a ton of shit but he was great.

I'm fine giving up yardage if it doesn't result in many points. The Patriots have been living on that model for a while now.

This team needs to be about running the ball, stopping the run, and passing efficiently. That can completely happen with the quality of the tight ends, and with Vereen out of the backfield.

It's not too late to try to make something out of this season, even if it is just playing good football.
There's a separate conversation to be had about coaching in general  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/16/2017 7:11 pm : link
that I wonder if it makes sense that guys get reputations for being really good offensive minds and coordinators, then they get jobs because of their accomplishments at coordinator, and there's little to no patience for that guy continuing to do what he made his name doing. Mike McCarthy gets crushed all the time for insisting on playcalling and working directly with the quarterback, but that's why they hired him. That's how he became a head coaching candidate, being recognized for his playcalls and ability to develop QBs.

Why do you hire McCarthy or McAdoo, or Gase, or any hot coordinator and then have a short fuse for demanding that he stop doing what his primary skill was so that he can focus on supervising other people try to do what he was better at?
RE: There's a separate conversation to be had about coaching in general  
arcarsenal : 10/16/2017 7:25 pm : link
In comment 13652326 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
that I wonder if it makes sense that guys get reputations for being really good offensive minds and coordinators, then they get jobs because of their accomplishments at coordinator, and there's little to no patience for that guy continuing to do what he made his name doing. Mike McCarthy gets crushed all the time for insisting on playcalling and working directly with the quarterback, but that's why they hired him. That's how he became a head coaching candidate, being recognized for his playcalls and ability to develop QBs.

Why do you hire McCarthy or McAdoo, or Gase, or any hot coordinator and then have a short fuse for demanding that he stop doing what his primary skill was so that he can focus on supervising other people try to do what he was better at?


Has the fuse really been that short? This isn't his first season here. This offense was one of the worst in football last year.

It's not like people gave the guy 2 games and then decided to start lobbying for change. We've been having problems offensively for some time now. I think it's become clear that perhaps he should be more focused on coaching the entire football team. His quote about that rubbed a lot of people the wrong way - and perhaps he could have worded it better - but I agreed with the overall point.

McAdoo needs to coach the TEAM. Not worry as much about calling the offense.

Yesterday felt like a team win. Maybe it'll just be a drop in a bucket and we'll never see it again this year. But for one night, it was nice to watch a team that seemed to be prepared and in sync.
Can we honestly look at what was on the field last year  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/16/2017 7:29 pm : link
and say they should have had a good offense? I can't believe we're going back to that.
RE: I thought the defense played really well  
arcarsenal : 10/16/2017 7:30 pm : link
In comment 13652312 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I give JPP a ton of shit but he was great.

I'm fine giving up yardage if it doesn't result in many points. The Patriots have been living on that model for a while now.

This team needs to be about running the ball, stopping the run, and passing efficiently. That can completely happen with the quality of the tight ends, and with Vereen out of the backfield.

It's not too late to try to make something out of this season, even if it is just playing good football.


I would agree with this and am hoping to see more of the same. The wins and losses won't matter as much as this point - but I'd like to see the team continue to play smart/quality football. It'll benefit us in the long run.
RE: Can we honestly look at what was on the field last year  
arcarsenal : 10/16/2017 7:33 pm : link
In comment 13652340 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
and say they should have had a good offense? I can't believe we're going back to that.


How about average?

We were one of the worst offenses in the entire league last year.

Not sure why he gets a complete pass for the predictable playcalling or the refusal to commit to the run game.
Also what does coaching the team mean?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/16/2017 7:38 pm : link
It's sort of an undefined thing. What can he not do while calling plays that's so important? He wasn't involved in defense or special teams as a coordinator, so what needs supervising on game day that somebody else can't be responsible for?

It's just me thinking, but you hire a guy based on his resume and then give him work that isn't related, and take away what he DID prepare for and was known for. Does that really make sense?

Like promoting your top salesman to sales supervisor. Now your best sales guy isn't selling for you. He's watching other people sell, who aren't as good as he was.

And you can hate McAdoo all day, you're entitled to your opinion, but Mike Sullivan is somebody who, two months ago if you suggested on here should be able to run his offense, you would get run off the site, and it would be justifiable.
RE: RE: Can we honestly look at what was on the field last year  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/16/2017 7:40 pm : link
In comment 13652342 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13652340 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


and say they should have had a good offense? I can't believe we're going back to that.



How about average?

We were one of the worst offenses in the entire league last year.

Not sure why he gets a complete pass for the predictable playcalling or the refusal to commit to the run game.


They should have had an average offense with Beckham, no TEs, a shot Cruz, a retired Jennings, the same bad offensive line we all agreed was horrible and the same backup WRs who were on the field last night?

You really feel that way?
...  
BrettNYG10 : 10/16/2017 7:44 pm : link
Was the 2016 personnel really worse than the 2015 one that was 6th in scoring and 8th in yards? I thought Eli had a bad year last year and was a (but not the only) reason for the decline.
RE: ...  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/16/2017 7:50 pm : link
In comment 13652356 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
Was the 2016 personnel really worse than the 2015 one that was 6th in scoring and 8th in yards? I thought Eli had a bad year last year and was a (but not the only) reason for the decline.



Two critical skill position starters on the 2016 team are no longer in the NFL. One retired and one is trying to run away from retirement. I feel like that speaks loudly, or it should. The TE position was so terrible they threw a first-round pick and big free agent money at it. I do feel like it was that bad. Also didn't help, as we have repeated so often, that that offensive line was a horror.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/16/2017 8:00 pm : link
McAdoo was hired to be the head coach. The head coach isn't just responsible for one side of the football. That's why Rex Ryan failed. He couldn't separate the two.

For a guy who was brought here to "fix" the offense, and that side of the ball being his calling card, I wouldn't expect a 25th/26th ranked unit.

There were teams without an elite WR like Beckham or even a QB of Eli's stature who fared slightly better.

So, yes - I really feel that way. I feel that he hasn't done well enough here coaching the offense since that was what he was brought here for.

And yeah - the offensive line was terrible. I don't think it's a coincidence that they've played better without Bobby Hart @ RT. He should know his personnel and it's very possible he spent a lot of games putting the wrong guys on the field. That should fall on his shoulders.
So which is it?  
Go Terps : 10/16/2017 8:07 pm : link
Was he brought here to improve the offense or coach the team? I'd argue he did an excellent job in 2016 of coaching the team.

He hasn't been as good in 2017, and has made some game management errors. Hopefully those go away.
RE: RE: ...  
BrettNYG10 : 10/16/2017 8:17 pm : link
In comment 13652368 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13652356 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


Was the 2016 personnel really worse than the 2015 one that was 6th in scoring and 8th in yards? I thought Eli had a bad year last year and was a (but not the only) reason for the decline.




Two critical skill position starters on the 2016 team are no longer in the NFL. One retired and one is trying to run away from retirement. I feel like that speaks loudly, or it should. The TE position was so terrible they threw a first-round pick and big free agent money at it. I do feel like it was that bad. Also didn't help, as we have repeated so often, that that offensive line was a horror.


That's answering a different question, though. The 2015 offense was not one littered with weapons or an elite offensive line. There shouldn't have been that big of a drop-off from 2015 to 2016.
RE: So which is it?  
arcarsenal : 10/16/2017 8:24 pm : link
In comment 13652386 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Was he brought here to improve the offense or coach the team? I'd argue he did an excellent job in 2016 of coaching the team.

He hasn't been as good in 2017, and has made some game management errors. Hopefully those go away.


Well, that's a two part question - because he wasn't initially hired to be the head coach.

He was hired to fix the offense.

Statistically, the offense did improve from 2013 to 2014 and again from 2014 to 2015.

So, he was promoted and became the head coach.

Now, his job is no longer just coaching the offense - his job is coaching the team. But that shouldn't mean regression for the offense or struggles like we've seen.

If he can't handle everything that comes along with coaching the entire team, perhaps the position isn't for him and he'd be better suited as an assistant.

Yesterday may have been a step forward for him - but that'll depend on where we go from here.
I just donít like the HC calling plays..  
Sean : 10/16/2017 9:31 pm : link
the HC needs to see the entire team. I donít want the HC buried in a play sheet and missing something crucial.

McAdoo is young. He wasnít going to be brought in here and set the world on fire. If this season becomes 8-8, Iíd argue we have our HC of the future. The Giants have operated year to year since 2013, Iím rooting for McAdoo to succeed, but we may need to accept that this is a growing pains year that is beneficial long term.

Let Sullivan run the offense, Spags run the defense & McAdoo oversee the team and handle game management.
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