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Did you guys want us to lay down and lose?

ryanmkeane : 10/16/2017 8:44 am
By the mood of this board today, I think most of you are pissed that the Giants didn't fit your narrative last night. Just curious, did you want us to lay down on national TV and get blown out? Because I saw Giants football last night and it was fucking tremendous. And for those that are going to say "well all this proves is we still suck" or "it's pathetic that McAdoo didn't do this earlier" or "well the offense still kinda sucked"....Denver is a very good defensive team and we beat them up in the trenches on both sides. Eli didn't need to throw the ball 30 times for us to win this game. We got a 3 score lead late in the 3rd quarter, it's almost impossible to give that up if you play smart, and that's what happened. Not sure about everyone else but I'm going to enjoy this one and look forward to Seattle.
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There are some brutal teams  
ryanmkeane : 10/16/2017 9:24 am : link
in the NFL this year. In fact, there are currently 11 teams with 0 to 2 wins. How is it a fact that we would end up with a top 3 pick? We could go 3-13 and get the 6th pick.
The offense put together several long drives that covered a lot....  
Britt in VA : 10/16/2017 9:24 am : link
of yards.

They scored on their opening drive for the first time this year. They put up a lead and held it.

All of this without their 3 starting receivers.

How can it NOT be clear that the offense was running better with Sullivan calling the plays?
Until  
ryanmkeane : 10/16/2017 9:25 am : link
we have 8 losses, there's absolutely zero reason to give up on the season and "tank" so to speak.
RE: would the Giants be better off  
Ceez2.0 : 10/16/2017 9:27 am : link
In comment 13651418 gidiefor said:
Quote:
with a top 3 draft pick in April -- the obvious answer is yes

but I'm a fan -- and watching the Giants lose every game is not copacetic in my DNA

Last night's win was what I expected to see out of this team coming into the season. This team has a lot of talent and there was no reason to believe the defense couldn't play like this - they've been playing like dog crap for 5 games...

But watching the Offense pound the ball - especially breaking it through for a first down in the final drive and sealing the deal, an Oline making some plays -- and the Defense making some stops -- that was fun to see. I had zero expectations the Giants could win last night and they pleasantly surprised me


100% agree. My immediate sentiment (other than the thrill of watching them play good football) was regret we didn't make some of the changes like on the Oline and the play-calling much earlier. At 1-5 it may be too little too late. I will still root my ass off every week for wins though.
RE: The bummer is that once the euphoria of the win wears off....  
WillVAB : 10/16/2017 9:28 am : link
In comment 13651330 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
the reality is that we are insanely thin at WR and there is no help coming there. I would have liked to see what Sullivan/Eli could do with a full compliment of the weapons they should have.


They'll get Shep back at some point.

I'm happy they played with an identity last night. They looked like an 80s Giants team.
RE: Regardless..  
Section331 : 10/16/2017 9:33 am : link
In comment 13651326 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:

I'm never going to root for them to lose. Even if I think they would be better off doing so.


My feelings too. Even in 2003, I was rooting for wins with Jesse Palmer playing QB.

This was a good win, but the Broncos were the perfect opponent in a way. They have inconsistent QB play, we have an excellent defense. As good as their defense is, they struggle v. the run, so the new OL configuration was a godsend; I hope it is the line up here on out.

That said, you're not going to win too many games with 2 catches and 5 targets to your WR's.
RE: RE: The bummer is that once the euphoria of the win wears off....  
Britt in VA : 10/16/2017 9:35 am : link
In comment 13651441 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 13651330 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


the reality is that we are insanely thin at WR and there is no help coming there. I would have liked to see what Sullivan/Eli could do with a full compliment of the weapons they should have.



They'll get Shep back at some point.

I'm happy they played with an identity last night. They looked like an 80s Giants team.


That's a perfect way to put it.

They finally played with an identity on offense, last night.
RE: The offense put together several long drives that covered a lot....  
Jim in Tampa : 10/16/2017 9:47 am : link
In comment 13651430 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
of yards.

They scored on their opening drive for the first time this year. They put up a lead and held it.

All of this without their 3 starting receivers.

How can it NOT be clear that the offense was running better with Sullivan calling the plays?


Well you didn't actually say that the offense was running better with Sully. You SAID that it was clear that Eli had a different comfort level with Sullivan and I was challenging how that could possibly be "clear" to you.

But if you prefer to discuss how could it not be clear that the O was running better with Sullivan calling the plays...I would simply say that it can't possibly be clear because you don't fact "execution" into the equation.

A play caller can call the perfect play but what happens when an O-lineman misses a block, a runner doesn't see the hole, a QB overthrows the WR or the WR drops a catchable pass? That's NOT the play callers fault.

It is entirely possible that the reason the offense looked better last night was because of execution and not because of play calling. Plus when you compare how the D played last night to their previous efforts, the O simply didn't have to do as much as in previous games.

I'm not saying Sully didn't call a better game. I just don't think it's as cut and dry as, "the plays worked better...so it HAS to be the OC."
It should read...  
Jim in Tampa : 10/16/2017 9:48 am : link
"factor" in execution, not "fact"
RE: RE: The offense put together several long drives that covered a lot....  
Britt in VA : 10/16/2017 9:55 am : link
In comment 13651479 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
In comment 13651430 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


of yards.

They scored on their opening drive for the first time this year. They put up a lead and held it.

All of this without their 3 starting receivers.

How can it NOT be clear that the offense was running better with Sullivan calling the plays?



Well you didn't actually say that the offense was running better with Sully. You SAID that it was clear that Eli had a different comfort level with Sullivan and I was challenging how that could possibly be "clear" to you.

But if you prefer to discuss how could it not be clear that the O was running better with Sullivan calling the plays...I would simply say that it can't possibly be clear because you don't fact "execution" into the equation.

A play caller can call the perfect play but what happens when an O-lineman misses a block, a runner doesn't see the hole, a QB overthrows the WR or the WR drops a catchable pass? That's NOT the play callers fault.

It is entirely possible that the reason the offense looked better last night was because of execution and not because of play calling. Plus when you compare how the D played last night to their previous efforts, the O simply didn't have to do as much as in previous games.

I'm not saying Sully didn't call a better game. I just don't think it's as cut and dry as, "the plays worked better...so it HAS to be the OC."


That's a lot of words to argue something that most on the board thought was pretty clear ie: Sullivan looking better than McAdoo at calling the plays.

Eli looked more comfortable to me. Especially to start the game.
RE: RE: The offense put together several long drives that covered a lot....  
WillVAB : 10/16/2017 9:59 am : link
In comment 13651479 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
In comment 13651430 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


of yards.

They scored on their opening drive for the first time this year. They put up a lead and held it.

All of this without their 3 starting receivers.

How can it NOT be clear that the offense was running better with Sullivan calling the plays?



Well you didn't actually say that the offense was running better with Sully. You SAID that it was clear that Eli had a different comfort level with Sullivan and I was challenging how that could possibly be "clear" to you.

But if you prefer to discuss how could it not be clear that the O was running better with Sullivan calling the plays...I would simply say that it can't possibly be clear because you don't fact "execution" into the equation.

A play caller can call the perfect play but what happens when an O-lineman misses a block, a runner doesn't see the hole, a QB overthrows the WR or the WR drops a catchable pass? That's NOT the play callers fault.

It is entirely possible that the reason the offense looked better last night was because of execution and not because of play calling. Plus when you compare how the D played last night to their previous efforts, the O simply didn't have to do as much as in previous games.

I'm not saying Sully didn't call a better game. I just don't think it's as cut and dry as, "the plays worked better...so it HAS to be the OC."


I saw a variety of run plays that we didn't see with McAdoo calling the plays. Different personnel groups, different blocking schemes, etc. Example would be the inside trap play when Darkwa broke off a nice run up the gut. When was the last time a guard pulled on an interior run with McAdoo calling the plays?

Sullivan featured the TE, and the week before Engram saw zero targets.

I'm not saying Sullivan is the second coming, but last night it looked like he had a better feel for the pulse of the offense than McAdoo.
I'm pissed because all their correctives measures  
George from PA : 10/16/2017 9:59 am : link
Should have been done prior to the season

We are 3Xs removed from the team but could tell

our best run blocker was Fluker

Our best tackles is Pugh

Our best RB were Darkwa and Gallman

McAdoo should have given up play calling

I have no idea where defense has been...but they looked a ton better last night....not sure what was done....

All would be forgiven If they win 11 straight
RE: I'm pissed because all their correctives measures  
Don in DC : 10/16/2017 10:08 am : link
In comment 13651498 George from PA said:
Quote:
Should have been done prior to the season

We are 3Xs removed from the team but could tell

our best run blocker was Fluker

Our best tackles is Pugh

Our best RB were Darkwa and Gallman

McAdoo should have given up play calling

I have no idea where defense has been...but they looked a ton better last night....not sure what was done....

All would be forgiven If they win 11 straight


This. All fucking day, this.
Most People on the Board...  
Jim in Tampa : 10/16/2017 10:12 am : link
Including you and I, don't really have a clue when it comes to this type of thing, because as I pointed out, they don't factor play execution into the equation.

Not to mention also factoring in the QB changing the play at the line of scrimmage or the opposing D missing a tackle, blowing coverage, etc.

All most fans know is...
The play works = Great call by the OC
The play fails = Bad call by the OC

And the fact that you thought, expression-less, stone-faced Eli looked "more comfortable" to you (especially at the beginning of the game) I think has more to do with confirmation bias than anything else.

You thought all along that Sully should have been calling the plays so you consciously and subconsciously looked for "facts" to support that stance.
This team should be 3-3  
AnnapolisMike : 10/16/2017 10:13 am : link
I don't want them to lose...but at the same time a top 10 draft pick would be nice. What does a 7-9 season accomplish?

So I am torn, it is nice to see a good game being played. But we sure could use to draft a new QB for the future. 5+ wins does not help that cause.

It's nice to get that lousy taste out of your mouth  
Bluesbreaker : 10/16/2017 10:13 am : link
Even better when you win in a very tough environment Denver
on the road is no picnic .
The frustrating part is how long it's taken to get some kind
of a run game going and the offense is still very limited in
the ability to score it's the same script as last season
tonight we finally got a couple of picks and Jack Rabbits
pick six allowed us to run the ball a little more .
Two passes to the WR's isn't gonna cut it and we have to
remain healthy . I don't see the defense repeating what they
did last season nor do I see the scoring improve .
As long as they play hard and with pride thats all you can ask but were a bit handcuffed now . So it was an enjoyable win but It's not hard to wish for a chance at some premier
talent coming out in the draft in April .
I thought I had clicked on REPLY  
Jim in Tampa : 10/16/2017 10:13 am : link
My post was meant for Britt
RE: Most People on the Board...  
Britt in VA : 10/16/2017 10:17 am : link
In comment 13651528 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
Including you and I, don't really have a clue when it comes to this type of thing, because as I pointed out, they don't factor play execution into the equation.

Not to mention also factoring in the QB changing the play at the line of scrimmage or the opposing D missing a tackle, blowing coverage, etc.

All most fans know is...
The play works = Great call by the OC
The play fails = Bad call by the OC

And the fact that you thought, expression-less, stone-faced Eli looked "more comfortable" to you (especially at the beginning of the game) I think has more to do with confirmation bias than anything else.

You thought all along that Sully should have been calling the plays so you consciously and subconsciously looked for "facts" to support that stance.


Without our 3 starting WR's, we scored on our opening drive for the first time this season, and then again a drive later, both chain moving, time consuming drives with an identity. We utilized our TE in our gameplan after he got zero targets last week.

They rolled the pocket a few times to buy Eli time. That looked comfortable to me.
Not to mention they were playing the NFL's top ranked defense  
Britt in VA : 10/16/2017 10:18 am : link
at home.
RE: Not to mention they were playing the NFL's top ranked defense  
Simms11 : 10/16/2017 10:26 am : link
In comment 13651547 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
at home.


Who was also coming off a Bye
Yeah, factor all that in.....  
Britt in VA : 10/16/2017 10:27 am : link
Everyone, including myself, thought Von Miller was going to kill Eli last night.

#1 defense, at home, without your starting 3 WR's.

They came out poised and took a 10-0 lead which they never relinquished.

That's the bottom line, and something they've failed to do all year.
RE: Not to mention they were playing the NFL's top ranked defense  
Sean : 10/16/2017 10:27 am : link
In comment 13651547 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
at home.


It was a well coached game. We jumped out to a lead and the defense played confident. What I wonder is, does Sullivan have full say when it comes to kicking FG’s/going for it on 4th down? I say that because I loved the call to kick the 51 yard FG- that was such an important kick to set the tone for the second half and go up 20-3. I feel McAdoo would not have elected to kick that.
I would say that was McAdoo's call to kick that.  
Britt in VA : 10/16/2017 10:28 am : link
.
Even if they don't win another game  
Gman11 : 10/16/2017 10:41 am : link
that was beautiful and I'm going to enjoy it all week.
When you have no receivers,  
Doomster : 10/16/2017 10:46 am : link
and your only playmaker in the passing dept. is a rookie TE, then you better have some sort of running game....

The revamped line, was able to open holes....

Darkwa, got hit a few times, and got up slowly, and I thought, oh, oh, here we go again.....but he managed to stay in the game this time....to think we would have a 100 yard rusher this year, just did not compute...against Denver no less....

But the offense only scored 13 points, which was enough for this game.....it has to score more to win....

Can the defense play at the same level next week?

Will DRC play?

Wilson needs to be contained.....

And can the running game continue to produce?

A win against Seattle and who knows?
If the defense just stopped the other team in the last 2 minutes  
PatersonPlank : 10/16/2017 10:47 am : link
we'd be 3-3 minimum now.
I could care less about the draft pick  
Essex : 10/16/2017 10:49 am : link
the win is not as exhilarating because we should have won the Philly and Chargers games, the TB game was weird as they missed a bunch of makesvle fgs. So, I am always happy when they win, but am still down that the season is basically over in the middle of October.
I'd rather see good football than worry about a draft pick  
Go Terps : 10/16/2017 11:01 am : link
Besides, drafting well has little to do with where you are in the draft. It's not about a single pick.
I enjoyed the game.  
bceagle05 : 10/16/2017 11:06 am : link
Offensive and defensive lines kicked ass, and it was nice to see Engram featured on offense. I'm not rooting for an Eli-quarterbacked Giants team to lose.
RE: I'd rather see good football than worry about a draft pick  
Don in DC : 10/16/2017 11:25 am : link
In comment 13651657 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Besides, drafting well has little to do with where you are in the draft. It's not about a single pick.


Normally I would agree with you 100%, but right now, we need to draft Eli's successor. Having a top draft pick would make that feasible. I will be disappointed if we win just enough games to fuck us out of a chance to draft a blue chip QB prospect.
RE: If the defense just stopped the other team in the last 2 minutes  
ryanmkeane : 10/16/2017 11:28 am : link
In comment 13651626 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
we'd be 3-3 minimum now.

Brutal! I agree, but tough to lay the blame on the defense for those 2 or 3 losses. I'd say the Tampa and SD losses were certainly tough for the defense. The Philly loss...we looked like a pop warner offense in the first half, so tough to lay it entirely on the D.

In any case, it SUCKS we aren't 2-4 or 3-3. On to Seattle and let's see what happens.
of the superbowl winners  
hassan : 10/16/2017 11:29 am : link
in recent history, one qb was a sixth rounder, one was a third rounder, two were first overall picks, two were first rounders picked in the later part of the draft, and another was picked 11th overall.

this would suggest to me 'cant miss' prospects, etc. is mostly draft junkie jabber. I agree with GT wholeheartedly.
RE: RE: I'd rather see good football than worry about a draft pick  
Sean : 10/16/2017 11:34 am : link
In comment 13651699 Don in DC said:
Quote:
In comment 13651657 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Besides, drafting well has little to do with where you are in the draft. It's not about a single pick.



Normally I would agree with you 100%, but right now, we need to draft Eli's successor. Having a top draft pick would make that feasible. I will be disappointed if we win just enough games to fuck us out of a chance to draft a blue chip QB prospect.


If there is conviction for a guy, trade for him. See Carson Wentz & Patrick Mahomes. Also, the NFL is different now. Franchise QB’s don’t need to be taken with the top 3 picks.
Britt  
ryanmkeane : 10/16/2017 11:52 am : link
we are on the same page today. Imagine!
RE: Britt  
Britt in VA : 10/16/2017 11:59 am : link
In comment 13651765 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
we are on the same page today. Imagine!


What can I say? When you're right, you're right :)
If you are asking  
ThatLimerickGuy : 10/16/2017 12:09 pm : link
Whether the collective "BBI" is a bunch of cranky assholes who want nothing more than to be miserable when the Giants don't play offense like the 2001 Rams or defense like the 2000 Ravens then yes, the answer is a resounding yes.
I'm glad they won because I didn't want 0-16 to be on the table.  
Devon : 10/16/2017 12:42 pm : link
This season is, objectively, dead though and the worst outcome will be if they sneak their way out of the cellar.

Not just because of the draft picks, but because this team, such as it's run, will look for any reason to not make the hard changes that a team that consistently misses the playoffs (7/9 years) and will finish sub .500 for the fourth time in five years should be making.

I'm not going to pretend that's not the case and I'm not going to start handing out brownie points to a head coach whose abject failures this season helped make them a non-contender before October came close to ending because they finally won one game where they had 12 first downs, no matter the opponent.

I don't expect the players to give up, because that's not how they're wired, though. Or at least not how they should be wired.
I'm just so frustrated,  
oldog : 10/16/2017 1:16 pm : link
that they went for those extra two FGs. 17-10 Giants was what I predicted, and its just soooo frustrating when they overachieve like that. And its not only me, I feel soooooo bad for all the BBIs that were rooting for a big Bronc victory. Even Gidiefor seemed to get a little lukewarm there. And where are the "No Oline" boys today, we heard that drumbeat for many many years, and without it there is just this hollow silence. And the fire Eli and McAdoo crowd, where are you? And the JPP is sooooooooo overpaid bunch. And over there in the corner, why yes its the Eli is washed up group. Last year we saw Cam Newton's response to a fumble, last night we saw washed up Eli in the same position.
nope  
djm : 10/16/2017 1:22 pm : link
I want us to win at least 8 more games. I'd settle for 7 more but be pretty cranky about it in January.

I don't want to be embarrassing anymore. I enjoyed last night. It was nice watching the Giants to a man get the monkey off its back.

I keep going back to seasons like 1988 and 2006. They were brutally tough seasons...but they led to better things. At the time there was very little proof that these seasons were anything more than mere evidence that the team under-achieved. Maybe they did...but they showed fight. If this team can come out of the ashes with some hope and maybe an identity, we'd have to take it and run.

I know we all want scorched earth. Fire everyone...get the young QB...all that...but we don't really want that. If this team gets off the mat and battles to a competitive finish it would show that maybe things aren't as dire as they seem. Let's see what happens. Gotta have hope.
RE: I'd rather see good football than worry about a draft pick  
BillKo : 10/16/2017 1:31 pm : link
In comment 13651657 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Besides, drafting well has little to do with where you are in the draft. It's not about a single pick.


Exactly. It's how you scout and who you pick.

You need to hit on picks other than your first rounder..........
I am in the distinct minority here  
Matt M. : 10/16/2017 1:38 pm : link
in that I don't want the top pick because I don't want them to feel compelled to take a QB. I think it's a waste. In my opinion, Eli is still a top QB. If they take a QB with a top 3 pick that would mean Eli has, at most, 1 year left with the Giants. Long gone are the days where a top QB sits for 2-3 years to learn under a veteran. The cap and rookie contracts don't allow for it.

The other issue is I am not confident the current front office would get the pick right anyway. I would want to trade down.

Regardless, I will not root for losses.
Djm  
hassan : 10/16/2017 1:39 pm : link
Excellent post. Scorched earth is just a bs fan reaction anyway.

No  
trueblueinpw : 10/16/2017 2:42 pm : link
I've never wanted the Giants to lose and I certainly would never want them to lay down. I called on the defense to play with some fucking pride and I'm glad they finally did. This team still has enough talent to be competitive and win football games. Going in to Denver and winning under any circumstances is a terrific accomplishment.
Lose  
Giantslifer : 10/16/2017 3:12 pm : link
Never want start season hoping for losses. But when you are 0-5 , the future needs to be considered. What is the point of rallying to 8-8 miss playoffs.
The way the league is rigged is if you are in middle you will stay in middle.
Look at Redskins or Eagles . When is last time they made serious run in payoffs? Always end up somewhere around 8-8.
Giants need to seriously look at Webb and all other young players. If the are "Players" keep them . If not drop em.
Eli is finished. Talk in Denver is maybe trade for Eli.
Nope  
JonC : 10/16/2017 3:16 pm : link
My only complaint is last night's team showing up weekly would probably have them at 4-2 right now.
RE: The offense put together several long drives that covered a lot....  
Jersey55 : 10/16/2017 4:51 pm : link
In comment 13651430 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
of yards.

They scored on their opening drive for the first time this year. They put up a lead and held it.

All of this without their 3 starting receivers.

How can it NOT be clear that the offense was running better with Sullivan calling the plays?


I thought the offense looked much different last night and that was before I knew that Sullivan was calling the plays, why in hell was BMac so stubborn about giving up the play calling.....
RE: This team should be 3-3  
Jimmy Googs : 10/16/2017 8:38 pm : link
In comment 13651532 AnnapolisMike said:
Quote:
I don't want them to lose...but at the same time a top 10 draft pick would be nice. What does a 7-9 season accomplish?

So I am torn, it is nice to see a good game being played. But we sure could use to draft a new QB for the future. 5+ wins does not help that cause.


No, we should be 1-5. They put a shit team on the field and they played like shit for most of the time in those games. Don't get caught up in overstating the last minute of a few ball games. They weren't ready to play competitive football when the season started in September and that's on McAdoo and his players because we know they have more ability than showed. Remember that the next time some idiot tells you how you look in preseason is meaningless.

A shame this season is near over for the home team and it isn't even Halloween yet...
Season is FAR from over - sure we are 1-5 but that’s only  
glowrider : 10/17/2017 5:21 am : link
2 games back of the 6th WC, and with Rodgers out, that WC5 is also getting closer.

The NFC and NFL are both a fucking mess. A little run and a little Help and this season still has teeth. I’ve long stopped worrying about sucking into the top of the draft. Would rather see us pull together and make a run at the WC. So far from over.
As I think one or two other people pointed out...  
Milton : 10/17/2017 6:39 am : link
They weren't going to get a top three pick even if they got blown out on Sunday night. They just weren't going to be that bad no matter what. And as it looks to me, there are only three college players (Rosen, Darnold, Barkley) who would make it worth going through the kind of season it would take to get them and we can't even be sure that all three will declare.

So we get to avoid the disappointment that would come from finishing 3-13 or 4-12 and still not getting a young franchise QB out of the deal. Now we can focus on winning instead of having mixed feelings that would've gone for naught anyway.
The Ravens, Seahawks, Steelers, Patriots, Broncos, and Packers  
hassan : 10/17/2017 11:59 am : link
most of the recent super bowl winners, never had a tank season or got 2-14, 3-13 bad. This is just a ridicoulus narrative that teams are 'stuck' in the middle.

Eagles look fairly competitive this year-they moved up to get their qb. And they had a few 10-6 seasons under chip kelly so dont know what people are saying. I also remember the aughts as being pretty damn good for the Eagles.
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