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Eli voted most overrated QB in poll of 155 players

jeff57 : 10/18/2017 9:45 am
But with only 14% of the vote.

FWIW
Link - ( New Window )
Today in Oxymoron News  
jcn56 : 10/18/2017 9:46 am : link
Eli Manning Rated Most Overrated QB
Overrated?  
Keith : 10/18/2017 9:46 am : link
Maybe this means overpaid? He's never rated high. That must mean that these 155 players think he sucks because he's usually "rated" as average.
Hilarious.  
Britt in VA : 10/18/2017 9:46 am : link
Overrated by who? Did he even make the top 100 players list? Which is voted on by the same players?
This poll  
pjcas18 : 10/18/2017 9:49 am : link
also has Jay Cutler as the QB you'd most want as your teammate. Overwhelmingly.

Solid poll.
RE: This poll  
Rocky369 : 10/18/2017 9:50 am : link
In comment 13654653 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
also has Jay Cutler as the QB you'd most want as your teammate. Overwhelmingly.

Solid poll.


Friday night or Sunday afternoon?
It's who you would NOT want as a teammate.  
Britt in VA : 10/18/2017 9:50 am : link
.
This Narrative Will Never Change,  
clatterbuck : 10/18/2017 9:50 am : link
even after Eli is inducted into the HoF.
RE: This poll  
hitdog42 : 10/18/2017 9:51 am : link
In comment 13654653 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
also has Jay Cutler as the QB you'd most want as your teammate. Overwhelmingly.

Solid poll.

You would not want - is the poll

And with regards to Eli- most guys in the league weren’t playing in 2007 and could care less about accolades achieved then- so they see a 20m guy and see that as overrated- which if you are 25- isn’t that crazy
great, I'll take him.....  
Dinger : 10/18/2017 9:52 am : link
keep overrating him....as long as he keeps on playing. He's in the hardest position to draft for, hire for, evaluate, learn and play in. I'll take him and all his overrated warts.
All you need to know about Eli is that he is a 2 time SB MVP!  
SterlingArcher : 10/18/2017 9:53 am : link
How many qb's can make that claim?
No doubt there was never a poll...  
EricJ : 10/18/2017 9:53 am : link
and the whole thing is made up to be click bait.
Cutler...LOL  
AnnapolisMike : 10/18/2017 9:54 am : link
Stupid poll
Eventually....  
Britt in VA : 10/18/2017 9:54 am : link
He'll be the most overrated QB in the Hall of Fame, with 2 Superbowl MVP's, the second longest Iron Man Streak in the history of the NFL, and in the top ten (if not top five) of every statistical passing category in history.
RE: RE: This poll  
pjcas18 : 10/18/2017 9:54 am : link
In comment 13654660 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
In comment 13654653 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


also has Jay Cutler as the QB you'd most want as your teammate. Overwhelmingly.

Solid poll.


You would not want - is the poll

And with regards to Eli- most guys in the league weren’t playing in 2007 and could care less about accolades achieved then- so they see a 20m guy and see that as overrated- which if you are 25- isn’t that crazy


As I re-read it I see you are correct. I take back my criticism of the poll. for at least that question.
Guess this was the Electoral College Vote!  
TheMick7 : 10/18/2017 10:02 am : link
.
Yea, overrated seems an odd term  
LG in NYC : 10/18/2017 10:02 am : link
since no one who isn't a Giants fan rarely rates him high to begin with.

Now... big name, big salary but not having big success in recent years? that is a poll he could legitimately win.

how can you be overrated if you arent rated high?  
Joey from GlenCove : 10/18/2017 10:03 am : link
i'd say most ppl think hes not a top 10 qb
Derek Jeter  
KWhite2250 : 10/18/2017 10:12 am : link
Was voted most overrated player plenty of times by players so........

These players voting are stupid
Say what you want but  
lester : 10/18/2017 10:18 am : link
Eli is clutch!
everyone outside of giants fans hate him  
micky : 10/18/2017 10:20 am : link
it's always been like that and continue
RE: Eventually....  
GoDeep13 : 10/18/2017 10:25 am : link
In comment 13654669 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
He'll be the most overrated QB in the Hall of Fame, with 2 Superbowl MVP's, the second longest Iron Man Streak in the history of the NFL, and in the top ten (if not top five) of every statistical passing category in history.
He’d have to beat Broadway Joe for that honor. Dude is in the HoF mostly for being an early football personality.
Didnt you guys know?  
Chris684 : 10/18/2017 10:53 am : link
Eli stinks because he throws high slants and is responsible for getting his WRs ankle broken!

He's totally overrated!
I was watching him closely against Denver  
David B. : 10/18/2017 11:22 am : link
In fact watching him all year, behind this shitty OL where he has to get rid of the ball so fast. His pocket presence is actually amazing. Really top top-level stuff -- avoiding the rush just enough to get the ball out. Yeah, he still gets sacked cause the protection sucks. And he's prone to fumbling when hit. But in a dreadful season, he's been pretty amazing, even though the offense hasn't clicked and it isn't showing on the stat sheet. It's not like he has all day back there to deliver perfect throws. Watch a team that has a good OL. It's like night and day. I watched the Chiefs, for example. Alex Smith has plenty of time to set up and throw on 5 or 7 step drops. For Eli, it's a fire drill on almost every play. And people are bitching about high throws or being a little off, on plays where it was amazing he got the ball out at all before getting hit.

He's doing some impressive shit this year under terrible circumstances, and he'll never get any credit for it.
Ive always said...  
BillKo : 10/18/2017 11:30 am : link
...Eli is tremendously underrated, for what he's accomplished.
Don't people have to rate you high for you to be overrated?  
JOrthman : 10/18/2017 11:49 am : link
Outside of the seasons after he won a SB, when has the media ever came out and rated him high?
Eli and the HOF  
KWALL2 : 10/18/2017 12:21 pm : link
It's not only how he ranks right now or where he ranked in top 10 QBs but how his career is judged.

When people make the case for Eli as a future HOF QB, I think that overrates him. I don't think he's a HOF at this point Many do. Many don't. The ones that don't can think he's overrated by the people on the other side.

Talk of career numbers can overrate him. He's in the top 10 all time in yards and TD? When Kerry Collins retired he was close to top 10 in yards. Dave Kreig was top 10 in TDs. These stats overrate these players. They were never elite. You mention top 10 all time and you think of the elite guys. I don't see Eli in that group.

"2 time SB MVP" talk overrates him when you group him with others who have done it or even won 2 SBs. Not all MVPs are equal. They almost always give it to the winning QB. And sometimes that QB gets too much credit for it. In both SBs, the win was more about the defense than anything special from the QB.
...  
EddieNYG : 10/18/2017 12:25 pm : link
RE: Eli and the HOF  
RobCarpenter : 10/18/2017 12:28 pm : link
In comment 13654900 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
It's not only how he ranks right now or where he ranked in top 10 QBs but how his career is judged.

When people make the case for Eli as a future HOF QB, I think that overrates him. I don't think he's a HOF at this point Many do. Many don't. The ones that don't can think he's overrated by the people on the other side.

Talk of career numbers can overrate him. He's in the top 10 all time in yards and TD? When Kerry Collins retired he was close to top 10 in yards. Dave Kreig was top 10 in TDs. These stats overrate these players. They were never elite. You mention top 10 all time and you think of the elite guys. I don't see Eli in that group.

"2 time SB MVP" talk overrates him when you group him with others who have done it or even won 2 SBs. Not all MVPs are equal. They almost always give it to the winning QB. And sometimes that QB gets too much credit for it. In both SBs, the win was more about the defense than anything special from the QB.


In SB XLII, Eli got the ball with 2:39 left on the Giants 17 yard line, and needed a TD to win. And he got that TD. I'd say that was 'special'.
David  
KWALL2 : 10/18/2017 12:30 pm : link
Quote:
He's doing some impressive shit this year under terrible circumstances, and he'll never get any credit for it.


This is true especially the last few games. I don't think it can continue unless Sheppard comes back and plays at a high level. Probably a terrible statistical year with no more than a couple of wins.
KWall - I agree that Eli's stats will look somewhat less  
jcn56 : 10/18/2017 12:30 pm : link
impressive by virtue of the gaudy passing numbers the NFL puts up season over season. FiveThirtyEight ran some models to see where the leaderboard might be by 2025, and Eli's still hanging in there around #9 (linked below).

I think things might change between now and then - if spread offenses remain prevalent in college and we're seeing the last of a breed of pocket passers, it could be that maybe numbers don't continue to move up the way they have or the way they think. At that point, 5 years after Eli retires (HoF eligibility), presumably sometime after 2025, it could be in hindsight he looks even better than the present because of that shift.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/heres-what-the-nfl-career-passing-leaderboard-will-look-like-in-2025/ - ( New Window )
RE: Eli and the HOF  
Bramton1 : 10/18/2017 12:32 pm : link
In comment 13654900 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
In both SBs, the win was more about the defense than anything special from the QB.


All I hear from Eli bashers is that he was handed an MVP by the defense in both Super Bowls. But this I ask. What if the Giants had never scored on either of their two big Super Bowl drives. Lost SB 42 14-10, and lost SB 46 17-15. Would anyone be claiming that Brady was handed an MVP by his defense, or would they be raving about his performance?
Rob  
KWALL2 : 10/18/2017 12:33 pm : link
He got the TD? Ok. The special part was Tyree catching a ball on his head.

Or was it the defense holding the highest scoring offense in NFL history to 14 points?
RE: Rob  
Britt in VA : 10/18/2017 12:35 pm : link
In comment 13654913 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
He got the TD? Ok. The special part was Tyree catching a ball on his head.

Or was it the defense holding the highest scoring offense in NFL history to 14 points?


Did you miss the first part of that play?

RE: Rob  
RobCarpenter : 10/18/2017 12:35 pm : link
In comment 13654913 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
He got the TD? Ok. The special part was Tyree catching a ball on his head.

Or was it the defense holding the highest scoring offense in NFL history to 14 points?


He directed the winning drive, and he somehow escaped a sack to throw the ball to Tyree. That TD drive wasn't all about the Tyree throw -- and even that throw isn't all about Tyree either.
Or what Britt said  
RobCarpenter : 10/18/2017 12:36 pm : link
.
Also, did you miss the Manningham pass in Superbowl 46?  
Britt in VA : 10/18/2017 12:44 pm : link
I mean, c'mon. The QB didn't do anything special in either of those Superbowls?

C'mon, man.
14% of 72 votes is 10  
Mellowmood92 : 10/18/2017 1:36 pm : link
so 10 players think Eli is overrated. Stop the presses
Eventually, he'll be the most overrated player in the Hall of Fame  
Heisenberg : 10/18/2017 1:50 pm : link
.
KWALL you are a respected football guy on this site...  
Chris684 : 10/18/2017 1:52 pm : link
However, your take on Eli really surprises me.

Anyone who chalks up either of the most recent Super Bowl wins to "defense" and takes away from Manning's body of work, I hate to say it, really sounds foolish.

First of all, they don't get to either Super Bowl without his epic performances in both NFC title games.

Second, he came on to the field late in the 4th quarter in both games.

Third, he beat BB and Brady twice, once while they had an 18-0 record.

Last, did you see the escape? The throw to Manningham?
If Eli had the same stats and SB wins and played for  
NYSports1 : 10/18/2017 2:00 pm : link
another team. Would you guys heap the same praise or will you call out the fact that he missed the playoffs for most of the second half of the career and led the league in picks in multiple seasons. Started 0-6 and 0-5 in 2 seasons within a 5 year stretch.

So are we going to blame the Oline and Jerry and the WR running wrong routes and the defense for that before Eli but praise his stats like it was his doing only?
Kwall  
crick n NC : 10/18/2017 2:11 pm : link
Was a big Kerry Collins backer, he didn't feel Manning was good enough to justify replacing Collins. If I'm not mistaken kwall believes the Giants would have been just as good or better with Collins at qb, Superbowl wins included.

If I had to guess, kwall would have preferred roethlisberger, out of the top rookied QBs that year.
How the Hell can you be overrated  
Matt M. : 10/18/2017 2:14 pm : link
when everybody shots on him? If anything, I think he is underrated.
RE: Guess this was the Electoral College Vote!  
gtt350 : 10/18/2017 2:19 pm : link
In comment 13654680 TheMick7 said:
Quote:
.



swing and a miss that would make the poll legitimate
RE: Kwall  
Matt M. : 10/18/2017 2:25 pm : link
In comment 13655073 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Was a big Kerry Collins backer, he didn't feel Manning was good enough to justify replacing Collins. If I'm not mistaken kwall believes the Giants would have been just as good or better with Collins at qb, Superbowl wins included.

If I had to guess, kwall would have preferred roethlisberger, out of the top rookied QBs that year.
I know my take has remained unchanged. I won't go back and wonder what would have happened had we not traded for Eli. Before the draft, I thought Eli was the best QB in the class, but that Rivers and Roethlisberger were not far off. I wanted us to trade Roethlisberger instead of trading up, not because I liked Ben better. Rather, I just thought there was little drop-off, so why spend additional picks. But, as soon as they announced the trade, I was happy to have Eli and haven't regretted that trade since. He is the single biggest reason for those two trophies.

If anything, as I stated above, I think he is vastly underrated by the media, fans, BBI, etc. In my opinion, he is still a top QB. He may not be a top 5 QB every year. But, I think he consistently is in the top 10. I even look back at this worst year in terms of INTs and think he was really having one of his best seasons. He gets judged unfavorably for INT that were mostly drops or wrong routes. The rest of his numbers that year were very good.

I have said it time and again, that outside of maybe Tom Brady, there isn't another QB I would trade Eli for. He may not be better than every other QB, but I think he is better for this team and this city. He is a guy who flawlessly handles the media. He flawlessly handles the pressure. He puts the team on his shoulders week in and week out. Even if he doesn't do it one week in terms of his play, he always shoulders the blame and refuses to call out his teammates. Most importantly, he has played the bulk of his career in a system extremely unfriendly for QBs, especially statistically. I'm not sure there is another QB in the league during his career who could have played as well as he in that system. He will be remembered more fondly in retirement than he is now.
Chris  
KWALL2 : 10/18/2017 2:31 pm : link
Here's part of the problem: "he beat BB and Brady twice".

"HE" did not beat them. The NYG did. The defense allowed a TD to start and then had 7 stops in a row against a team that averaged 37 PPG.

Part of the overrated part is, I believe, he gets too much credit for the SB wins. Many here disagree with it. We;ve been down that road before.

"Special" in Super Bowl is a full game of excellent play. He didn't give us that.

He made a great throw to MM? He sure did. It's also one play. If that's what you want to point to as his special play and justifies his MVP than I think that backs up the overrated talk.

The Tyree throw wasn't a good one or a good decision. He had Smith uncovered about 20 yards up the right sideline. He hung it up for grabs. Thankfully we had the old man Harrison back there who couldn't get up and do anything about it. Also, a play or two before that he threw one right at Samuel. He should have had the game ending INT. Before these plays we scored 10 points.

The only point I was trying to make with that initial post was why some (including me) would consider him overrated. Getting too much credit for the SB wins is one of the reasons.
Crick  
KWALL2 : 10/18/2017 2:35 pm : link
Its true I wasn't ready to give up on Collins. I wanted Winslow in that draft and have the Giants go with a 2 TE set of Shockey and Winslow. Yes brilliant.

Eli has played good ball but inconsistent. And short of a HOF player at this point. I do think he's done a hell of a job this year with the mess he's been given. I'd like to see him play for a few more years with NYG with a decent OL.
RE: Chris  
Britt in VA : 10/18/2017 2:35 pm : link
In comment 13655125 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Here's part of the problem: "he beat BB and Brady twice".

"HE" did not beat them. The NYG did. The defense allowed a TD to start and then had 7 stops in a row against a team that averaged 37 PPG.

Part of the overrated part is, I believe, he gets too much credit for the SB wins. Many here disagree with it. We;ve been down that road before.

"Special" in Super Bowl is a full game of excellent play. He didn't give us that.

He made a great throw to MM? He sure did. It's also one play. If that's what you want to point to as his special play and justifies his MVP than I think that backs up the overrated talk.

The Tyree throw wasn't a good one or a good decision. He had Smith uncovered about 20 yards up the right sideline. He hung it up for grabs. Thankfully we had the old man Harrison back there who couldn't get up and do anything about it. Also, a play or two before that he threw one right at Samuel. He should have had the game ending INT. Before these plays we scored 10 points.

The only point I was trying to make with that initial post was why some (including me) would consider him overrated. Getting too much credit for the SB wins is one of the reasons.


If Eli had failed to score on the final drives of both Superbowls, and the Giants lost, would the defense be to blame for giving up the go ahead scores with 2 minutes remaining?
Something to note about that poll:  
81_Great_Dane : 10/18/2017 2:38 pm : link
Eli was #1 overrated QB, but there were a couple of guys close. Eli's #s haven't been great for the last few years. They've been ok, but not great. So, sure, fine, whatever.

I think a lot of people disregard Eli's durability when they rate him. The Giants backup QBs almost never get on the field. Compare that with Roethlisberger, who's often hurt, or with almost everyone else. Rodgers is going to be out for the rest of the season, and that's happened once before. Brady missed a season with an ACL. That's NORMAL. What Eli is doing is freakish.

Whether you rank Eli top 10 or bottom 5 among starters, the Giants have had a legitimate NFL starter on almost every meaningful down for almost 13 full seasons. Other teams have their starter but the backups end up playing a few games here, a couple of quarters there, so there's a backup on the field quite a lot of the time. Eli's durability has been a huge asset. Is he as good as Rodgers or Brady? No. But he's led the team to two rings and a ton of comebacks. I have no complaints.

KWALL - I have to disagree with you.  
Matt M. : 10/18/2017 2:39 pm : link
First, I think he was far more consistent in his career than he is given credit for. Second, I think he absolutely was special in both those games. He had very good games in both and made his best plays with the outcome up for grabs in the 4th quarter of both games. In both games he ledt the Giants to the game winning TD drive late in the 4th quarter. He also had 2 outstanding playoff runs to get there.
RE: Something to note about that poll:  
Matt M. : 10/18/2017 2:42 pm : link
In comment 13655144 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
Eli was #1 overrated QB, but there were a couple of guys close. Eli's #s haven't been great for the last few years. They've been ok, but not great. So, sure, fine, whatever.

I think a lot of people disregard Eli's durability when they rate him. The Giants backup QBs almost never get on the field. Compare that with Roethlisberger, who's often hurt, or with almost everyone else. Rodgers is going to be out for the rest of the season, and that's happened once before. Brady missed a season with an ACL. That's NORMAL. What Eli is doing is freakish.

Whether you rank Eli top 10 or bottom 5 among starters, the Giants have had a legitimate NFL starter on almost every meaningful down for almost 13 full seasons. Other teams have their starter but the backups end up playing a few games here, a couple of quarters there, so there's a backup on the field quite a lot of the time. Eli's durability has been a huge asset. Is he as good as Rodgers or Brady? No. But he's led the team to two rings and a ton of comebacks. I have no complaints.
the last few? 2014 and 2015 he had excellent seasons. Even last year, with the terrible playcalling/personnel he had a very good year statistically.
There is not a doubt in my mind  
Matt M. : 10/18/2017 2:42 pm : link
that he is a HOF right now.
I would also add he hasnt won an MVP  
Chris684 : 10/18/2017 2:49 pm : link
but his 2011 campaign was MVP worthy.

He was nothing short of brilliant that season. He simply carried this team to the playoffs and beyond that year.
RE: Eli and the HOF  
BillKo : 10/18/2017 2:58 pm : link
In comment 13654900 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
It's not only how he ranks right now or where he ranked in top 10 QBs but how his career is judged.

When people make the case for Eli as a future HOF QB, I think that overrates him. I don't think he's a HOF at this point Many do. Many don't. The ones that don't can think he's overrated by the people on the other side.

Talk of career numbers can overrate him. He's in the top 10 all time in yards and TD? When Kerry Collins retired he was close to top 10 in yards. Dave Kreig was top 10 in TDs. These stats overrate these players. They were never elite. You mention top 10 all time and you think of the elite guys. I don't see Eli in that group.

"2 time SB MVP" talk overrates him when you group him with others who have done it or even won 2 SBs. Not all MVPs are equal. They almost always give it to the winning QB. And sometimes that QB gets too much credit for it. In both SBs, the win was more about the defense than anything special from the QB.


First part of your argument holds more weight if Eli didn't have two SBs.

And if he only had one, you might still have a case.

But he has two. And was right in the middle of both of them, making two dramatic plays, doing what a QB is supposed to do - lead a game winning drive.

Not to mention his play in the games up to those two championship games.

RE: I would also add he hasnt won an MVP  
BillKo : 10/18/2017 3:00 pm : link
In comment 13655180 Chris684 said:
Quote:
but his 2011 campaign was MVP worthy.

He was nothing short of brilliant that season. He simply carried this team to the playoffs and beyond that year.


Eli was, in the truest sense of the phrase, most valuable that season to his Giants' team.
?  
KWALL2 : 10/18/2017 3:01 pm : link
Quote:
...would the defense be to blame for giving up the go ahead scores with 2 minutes remaining?


Only by a fool.

14 and 17 points vs the best offense ever and another that was top 5 ever? That equals "special" defensive performance. In both games we held hem to well below their ppg.

On the other side, the Patriots defense held us under their points against average each year.
And this has some big time pull too...  
BillKo : 10/18/2017 3:02 pm : link
...and I have written it more than once.

Eli Manning plays the toughest position in sports, in the toughest city for sports.

That ain't easy folks.
He played the MVP on the road in the playoffs....  
Britt in VA : 10/18/2017 3:02 pm : link
who's team was 15-1 and the number one seed.

Who looked like the MVP QB that game?
Just remember..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/18/2017 3:06 pm : link
that you are arguing with a guy who claims Mark Sanchez managed the postseason games as well or better than Eli, so there isn't a lot of objectivity or intelligence supporting that argument.

He still thinks the Giants won almost exclusively because of the D and Eli was simply a guy on the field.

Samuel "almost" picked Eli off, the Tyree play was luck and well as for Eli avoiding the rush, we'll just ignore that part because it doesn't fit a narrative......
It goes right along with some of the other brilliant analysis  
Chris684 : 10/18/2017 3:20 pm : link
read right here on BBI this season.

Our 2011 Super Bowl was luck because we recovered 11 fumbles and got a call in our favor on the Bradshaw non-fumble.

Eli is to blame for Beckham's injury for throwing a "high slant".
By this rationale....  
BillKo : 10/18/2017 3:30 pm : link
Tom Brady's first SB doesn't count........the D held the Rams down and Brady "managed" the game.

PS - his game winning drive......I could have completed those passes...........
RE: Chris  
Simms11 : 10/18/2017 3:33 pm : link
In comment 13655125 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Here's part of the problem: "he beat BB and Brady twice".

"HE" did not beat them. The NYG did. The defense allowed a TD to start and then had 7 stops in a row against a team that averaged 37 PPG.

Part of the overrated part is, I believe, he gets too much credit for the SB wins. Many here disagree with it. We;ve been down that road before.

"Special" in Super Bowl is a full game of excellent play. He didn't give us that.

He made a great throw to MM? He sure did. It's also one play. If that's what you want to point to as his special play and justifies his MVP than I think that backs up the overrated talk.

The Tyree throw wasn't a good one or a good decision. He had Smith uncovered about 20 yards up the right sideline. He hung it up for grabs. Thankfully we had the old man Harrison back there who couldn't get up and do anything about it. Also, a play or two before that he threw one right at Samuel. He should have had the game ending INT. Before these plays we scored 10 points.

The only point I was trying to make with that initial post was why some (including me) would consider him overrated. Getting too much credit for the SB wins is one of the reasons.


You seem to be forgetting the throws he also had to make in between those great throws and the TDs he had to throw to get those wins, It's all part of it. He also played lights out getting his team through the playoffs to those two Super Bowls as well. Don't forget that. How about that Championship game in San Francisco? He made plays there too, while getting his head handed to him. How can that be overlooked? Is he a First Ballot HoFer? I'm really not so sure, but I do think he will get in eventually.
FMIC has arrived with his BS  
KWALL2 : 10/18/2017 3:39 pm : link

Quote:
He still thinks the Giants won almost exclusively because of the D and Eli was simply a guy on the field.


Not "almost exclusively" but a bigger factor than the guy who got the MVP award.

What we have is "He" beat the Pats. We see it often, right?
LOL...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/18/2017 3:43 pm : link
you call it BS - but you've typed this drivel:

Quote:
"Special" in Super Bowl is a full game of excellent play. He didn't give us that.

He made a great throw to MM? He sure did. It's also one play. If that's what you want to point to as his special play and justifies his MVP than I think that backs up the overrated talk.

The Tyree throw wasn't a good one or a good decision. He had Smith uncovered about 20 yards up the right sideline. He hung it up for grabs. Thankfully we had the old man Harrison back there who couldn't get up and do anything about it. Also, a play or two before that he threw one right at Samuel. He should have had the game ending INT. Before these plays we scored 10 points.


He wasn't "special" because he only had a couple good throws? He's part of not one, but two iconic moments.

Minimizing that is what really is the BS part.

Trying to minimize two plays that directly led to SB wins is one of the most bizarre takes I've seen on BBI - but you deliver time and again on it.
KWALL  
Chris684 : 10/18/2017 3:53 pm : link
If you're down on Eli's SB performances, what do you make of Ben's? By your logic (not mine) this must be correct.

Garbage against Seattle.

"One throw" against the Cardinals.

And then a loss.
You can do..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/18/2017 3:59 pm : link
that for anyone.

Joe Montana vs. Cincy. Sucked all game long, saw John Candy and one throw.

Ray Lewis. Danced in the tunnel. Sucked all game long. Tipped one pass.

Marcus Allen. One 89 yard run. The rest of the time 3 maybe 4 yards. Bum.

Timmy Smith. C'mon. Timmy Smith? 1 good game in a career. Carried by everyone else the rest of the time.

It's an absolutely fascinating way of argumentation.
How is 30 of 40 for nearly 300 yards a pedestrian performance?  
Matt M. : 10/18/2017 4:10 pm : link
Or, 19 of 34 for 255 and 2 TDs? In both games he threw the winning TD in the closing minutes of the 4th quarter to go along with 2 signature plays in SB history.
He is overrated - until he isn't. That's what we live for.  
Ivan15 : 10/18/2017 4:10 pm : link
Every QB in the league is overrated until they win. Brady is the only QB who isn't overrated.

If you want a QB who is "clutch" you can't do better.

And sitting where the Giants are now, Eli is the best chance to salvage the season. Not Brees, not Ben and not Rodgers, Wilson, Rivers or Flacco.
RE: He is overrated - until he isn't. That's what we live for.  
BillKo : 10/18/2017 4:18 pm : link
In comment 13655316 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
Every QB in the league is overrated until they win. Brady is the only QB who isn't overrated.

If you want a QB who is "clutch" you can't do better.

And sitting where the Giants are now, Eli is the best chance to salvage the season. Not Brees, not Ben and not Rodgers, Wilson, Rivers or Flacco.


Ian - not sure about your statement and salvaging the season...those other QBs are playing with better teams right now.
I'm guessing the Patriots  
CT Charlie : 10/18/2017 4:32 pm : link
weren't polled. Except for Landon Collins' nervous drop, what would our record be in the last five non-preseason meetings?
I'd hear an argument for no Hall of Fame  
Overseer : 10/18/2017 5:12 pm : link
he's had a plainly unique career making it difficult to assess it as one would a more typical QB.

He wouldn't be in my HoF, personally, which would only include the best of the absolute best, i.e. most definitely not people like Terrell Davis & Warner. But by established standards, he should be in.

But to trivialize his role in the 2 Super Bowl runs? Just...weird. Barely turned the ball over in either run and both were filled with big time throws.

Like this one (only angle I could find...you'll remember the play).

And this one.

And most of all this one. Think of the stakes in this clip. You're a 3rd year starter. It's been a pretty disappointing career thus far. You need a touchdown or the game is lost. The crowd is fucking roaring with 39 seconds left. And you lob a flawless 25 yard throw right into the arms of Burress to win it. It was a massive moment in NFL history.

To say nothing of the ridiculous Manningham sideline throw where he goes through his progressions at lightning speed before heaving a flawless ball against the sideline.

Eli was fucking money on those runs. Period.

Yes, the defense was great as well. Such an astute observation. How often is that not the case for a SB winning team? Doesn't take away from Eli's heroics one bit. As if he's Trent Dilfer.

Again...weird.
Chris  
KWALL2 : 10/18/2017 5:38 pm : link
Quote:
If you're down on Eli's SB performances, what do you make of Ben's?


I don't think much of Ben's SB play. If there was talk about Ben going to the HOF and pointing to his SB play as a primary reason then it would be a good time to bring it up.

With Eli, the HOF talk usually centers around 2 points:
1. SB MVPs
2. Top 10 passing stats.

Its this stuff that I think overrates him. In the SBs he made some plays but both wins were more about the defense stopping all time scoring offenses.

And the long term stats aren't HOF worthy when you have the high turnover rate, low QBR, and you don't have several elite seasons. That's my feeling on it.

I'd guess these are 2 of the main reasons NFL players and others feel he's overrated.

If it isn't these reasons, then why is he considered the most overrated player?
RE: Crick  
crick n NC : 10/18/2017 6:09 pm : link
In comment 13655136 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Its true I wasn't ready to give up on Collins. I wanted Winslow in that draft and have the Giants go with a 2 TE set of Shockey and Winslow. Yes brilliant.

Eli has played good ball but inconsistent. And short of a HOF player at this point. I do think he's done a hell of a job this year with the mess he's been given. I'd like to see him play for a few more years with NYG with a decent OL.


Kwall, KWII may have been a while different player under coughlin.
I think one point is being lost  
ThatLimerickGuy : 10/18/2017 6:20 pm : link
When evaluating players for the HOF it is only natural to compare that player to the existing HOF members. Without getting into stats (which nobody can argue put Eli in the HOF on stats alone, as he will finish 6th in yards and tds), which of these QB's do you think had better careers than Eli?

Dan Fouts
Bob Griese
Jim Kelly
Warren Moon
Joe Namath
Kurt Warner

I would argue that NONE of them do. You want to make a case for 1 or 2 of them fine but no way those guys are HOF caliber if Eli isn't. Want to argue that his numbers are a result of longevity- fine- then kick out Warren Moon. Want to argue that he doesn't have a large number of years of excellence? See ya Kurt Warner and Joe Namath.

He CAN'T be kept out for too long, because then when his peers (Roethlisberger, Brees and Rodgers and even Romo for example) come up for vote it will be impossible to rationalize them being in and Eli not being there.
Eli's RS W-L record  
old man : 10/18/2017 7:57 pm : link
Is +8.
His TD/Intercept ratio isn't much better.
His arm and accuracy are OK at best.
A gunslinger w/o a gun, and his decisions....sometimes, well..you know...
He's hated because of the SD thing...though they loved Elway for the same thing...and he's not Peyton.
Barring a 3rd Ring he is not HOF with those stats.
I saw all that though I love the guy....but that's the reality.
He is all that, statewide because for about 10 of his 14 rears he was behind an OL that was varying degrees of MEH to SUCK .... split about evenly. We will never know what he could have been, from even behind 14 years of average to good OLs...but I have to believe there'd be 1 more W each season, fewer risk taking picks, and better decisions.
But then again his GM for 11 of those 14 years was Jerry " What's an offensive lineman? or Linebacker?" Reese.
If you..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/18/2017 8:22 pm : link
are basing career W-L records as a factor for the HoF, you have a lot of guys in with middling records.

Fouts was 2 games over .500
Namath was a game under .500
Moon was 1 game over .500


Those are just some of the guys often in the discussion as who Eli must surpass.
There are two Elis  
Les in TO : 10/18/2017 8:28 pm : link
Regular season Eli and post season Eli

Regular season Eli is - over the course of his career - a slightly above average QB Some great years like 2011 and poor years like 2013. His win loss percentage is between hasselbeck and Brunell.

Post season Eli he had two incredible runs with ice in his veins where he was a complete beast. Last year his receivers let him down 2008 play let the team down and 2005/6 were learning experiences as a young leader

thing about this  
giantfan2000 : 10/19/2017 9:59 am : link
this is current players so you figure they average player has been in NFL 2 or 3 years

so Eli from past couple of years has not been exactly HoF level

I love how Eli......  
BillKo : 10/19/2017 10:34 am : link
needs three SB's to get in.

Had he only won the 2007 SB, I'm sure we'd be saying "yeah, but he needs two to really have consideration for the Hall."

Because winning two.....that shows it isn't luck.


These debates..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/19/2017 10:36 am : link
really focus on the wrong thing. It isn't whether eli is a HoF'er - it is whether he's a first ballot guy or not.

He'll be in the HoF - and he certainly doesn't need a 3rd SB win to do it.
RE: These debates..  
Britt in VA : 10/19/2017 10:50 am : link
In comment 13656168 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
really focus on the wrong thing. It isn't whether eli is a HoF'er - it is whether he's a first ballot guy or not.

He'll be in the HoF - and he certainly doesn't need a 3rd SB win to do it.


It's so freaking obvious. For the life of me, I feel like a certain subset of Giants fans actually go seeking weird reasons to keep him out.

They do this under the guise of being "objective".
Yep..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/19/2017 10:54 am : link
Objectively speaking, Eli was "just another guy" on the field for the SB wins.

Who the fuck, Giant fan, Patriot fan or not really believes that?

Anyone who tries to minimize being the part of two SB wins and being the MVP doesn't follow the lore of the sport much. If Namath is in for making a prediction, Eli will be in for beating Brady twice, for being MVP twice, and for beating a team that would've been undefeated.

Add in being in the top 10 of nearly every passing record and how anyone thinks he'll not be in the HoF is laughable to me.
So tired of the Eli haters  
trueblueinpw : 10/19/2017 11:24 am : link
JFC, what’s the guy have to do to get the respect and credit he deserves?

If you went to every player, coach and GM that ever was in the NFL and you asked them to describe a franchise QB, you come up with a composite that looks a lot like Eli Manning: gets better in the biggest games, check; reads defenses and makes all the throws, check; alway represents the franchise and the coach with integrity, check; plays in any conditions, check; tough as fucking nails, check; wins Super Bowls, fucking check.

No idea why some of you bother to be Giants fans if you refuse to appreciate the extraordinary brilliance of Eli’s career. This guy is the greatest Giant most of us will ever watch.

Eli’s going to be in the HOF and I hope I can be there in Canton to see the ceremony.
RE: So tired of the Eli haters  
NYSports1 : 10/19/2017 12:28 pm : link
In comment 13656257 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
JFC, what’s the guy have to do to get the respect and credit he deserves?

If you went to every player, coach and GM that ever was in the NFL and you asked them to describe a franchise QB, you come up with a composite that looks a lot like Eli Manning: gets better in the biggest games, check; reads defenses and makes all the throws, check; alway represents the franchise and the coach with integrity, check; plays in any conditions, check; tough as fucking nails, check; wins Super Bowls, fucking check.

No idea why some of you bother to be Giants fans if you refuse to appreciate the extraordinary brilliance of Eli’s career. This guy is the greatest Giant most of us will ever watch.

Eli’s going to be in the HOF and I hope I can be there in Canton to see the ceremony.



If most of us? never saw LT play than they have no clue...Eli is not in the same class as LT
What does LT have to do with anything?  
Britt in VA : 10/19/2017 12:32 pm : link
?
Best QB in Giants history  
spike : 10/19/2017 12:36 pm : link
= HOF. The Giants have been around for a long time.
RE: RE: So tired of the Eli haters  
RobCarpenter : 10/19/2017 12:37 pm : link
In comment 13656369 NYSports1 said:
Quote:
In comment 13656257 trueblueinpw said:


Quote:


JFC, what’s the guy have to do to get the respect and credit he deserves?

If you went to every player, coach and GM that ever was in the NFL and you asked them to describe a franchise QB, you come up with a composite that looks a lot like Eli Manning: gets better in the biggest games, check; reads defenses and makes all the throws, check; alway represents the franchise and the coach with integrity, check; plays in any conditions, check; tough as fucking nails, check; wins Super Bowls, fucking check.

No idea why some of you bother to be Giants fans if you refuse to appreciate the extraordinary brilliance of Eli’s career. This guy is the greatest Giant most of us will ever watch.

Eli’s going to be in the HOF and I hope I can be there in Canton to see the ceremony.




If most of us? never saw LT play than they have no clue...Eli is not in the same class as LT


Only about 3 other players are in the same class as LT. Jim Brown, Tom Brady, Reggie White. Most HOF players are not in the same class as LT.

That's no knock on Eli -- who should be HOF b/c of his play in getting to, and winning, the SB -- it's just that LT was one of, if not the, best defensive player ever.

RE: RE: RE: So tired of the Eli haters  
trueblueinpw : 10/19/2017 3:58 pm : link
In comment 13656380 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
In comment 13656369 NYSports1 said:


Quote:


In comment 13656257 trueblueinpw said:


Quote:


JFC, what’s the guy have to do to get the respect and credit he deserves?

If you went to every player, coach and GM that ever was in the NFL and you asked them to describe a franchise QB, you come up with a composite that looks a lot like Eli Manning: gets better in the biggest games, check; reads defenses and makes all the throws, check; alway represents the franchise and the coach with integrity, check; plays in any conditions, check; tough as fucking nails, check; wins Super Bowls, fucking check.

No idea why some of you bother to be Giants fans if you refuse to appreciate the extraordinary brilliance of Eli’s career. This guy is the greatest Giant most of us will ever watch.

Eli’s going to be in the HOF and I hope I can be there in Canton to see the ceremony.




If most of us? never saw LT play than they have no clue...Eli is not in the same class as LT



Only about 3 other players are in the same class as LT. Jim Brown, Tom Brady, Reggie White. Most HOF players are not in the same class as LT.

That's no knock on Eli -- who should be HOF b/c of his play in getting to, and winning, the SB -- it's just that LT was one of, if not the, best defensive player ever.


To be clear, LT's the greatest football player I've ever seen. Watched every down he played for the Giants - grew up loving LT! But he's not exactly a high character guy and the older I get the more realize the importance of character. But yeah, of course LT is the greatest football player ever. I like to believe that being a great Giant involves more than "just" being dominate on the field.
I know it's not the greatest analogy, but  
jhibb : 10/19/2017 9:48 pm : link
every time I hear the "take away the two Super Bowls..." argument, it makes me think of a Barry Sanders 200+ yd game where someone says it's not so great when you take away the two 80+ yd td runs, especially when you focus on all those rushes for losses.
RE: This poll  
Millburn : 10/21/2017 7:41 am : link
In comment 13654653 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
also has Jay Cutler as the QB you'd most want as your teammate. Overwhelmingly.

Solid poll.




Yup , wanna bet these poll takers didn't ask Tom Brady if Eli was "over rated">>>
RE: Say what you want but  
Jersey55 : 10/21/2017 11:03 am : link
In comment 13654726 lester said:
Quote:
Eli is clutch!

he used to be but not too much lately....
...  
christian : 10/21/2017 1:34 pm : link
There's nothing unfan worthy acknowledging Manning has had a really successful, long, healthy career, but that he's not an all-time great.

He's had great moments, great throws, and one borderline great individual season. He means a great deal to Giants fans, and was a big part of two awesome championships. That's the whole point of being a fan of and playing games for a living.

Everyone picks Manning's career over Marino's. No one with a straight face can say Manning is on Marino's level as a QB.

And that's totally OK. Really good player with a great career.



Eli not being considered an All Time Great by some  
BBelle21 : 10/21/2017 2:03 pm : link
Doesn’t mean he’s not a HOFQB. He is. Kurt Warner is by no means an All time Great. He’s in the HOF. Eli’s credentials are better than Kurt’s.
I can see debating Eli's overall hof credentials  
djm : 10/21/2017 2:33 pm : link
But nitpicking his actual super bowl performances ?? You're really going over the Tyree play??? Really????? The guy played great in both Super Bowls. Period. End of fucking story.

Find another moment to pick apart for fucks sake. Lol...
My take on the hof is this  
djm : 10/21/2017 2:36 pm : link
You don't necessarily have to be a "great or elite" player to compose a great NFL career. Eli may not be one of the elite qbs. He may never have been elite although i do think he was from 2007-2011 but when you add up every single aspect of Eli's career there will be enough boxes checked to get him into canton. And he should.

Plus, the guy carries himself as well as any player before or after. And fuck if that doesn't count for something anymore. It damn well does in my book. There's a place for Eli in canton and fuck anyone who says otherwise. We put human garbage into the hof. We celebrate pieces of shit. Celebrate Eli.
When I say fuck everyone  
djm : 10/21/2017 2:40 pm : link
I don't mean that in the assholeish literal sense. I just think it's sad that pros who border on the fence of the HOF don't get the benefit of the doubt if they epitomized professionalism and moral fortitude on and off the field. It's a sad commentary in my view. Even if Eli falls just short in terms of overall play, he should get a lot of points for his overall character and impact on and off the field.

RE: When I say fuck everyone  
christian : 10/21/2017 3:18 pm : link
In comment 13658322 djm said:
Quote:
I don't mean that in the assholeish literal sense. I just think it's sad that pros who border on the fence of the HOF don't get the benefit of the doubt if they epitomized professionalism and moral fortitude on and off the field. It's a sad commentary in my view. Even if Eli falls just short in terms of overall play, he should get a lot of points for his overall character and impact on and off the field.


Whether deserving or not, Manning absolutely is getting to Canton. The influence his family has across the entertainment and sports industry is unparalleled. It's so not even a question, it's silly to debate.

Personally, I think he's just in the gate. He'll have the numbers and the rings. He doesn't have the peeks. But 2 out of 3 usually get you in.
Christian  
djm : 10/21/2017 3:33 pm : link
Agree 100%.
I am sick of the Eli haters and the Eli lovers  
xman : 10/21/2017 5:18 pm : link
I don't need an idol to worship. I need a team to win. We win as a team and lose as a team. This non stop talk whether Eli is HOF is crazy
Djm makes a good point about his character  
MetsAreBack : 10/21/2017 7:05 pm : link
For all the talk of Big Ben and rivers - I don't think either survive here

I see both sides - I agree with kwall that our defense (and welkers drop) don't get enough credit in the two wins. The mvps are so overrated to me - especially SB 42 - cmon how does our defensive line not get credit for that win? We scored 17 points against the greatest offense of all time. It's not a knock on Eli - our defense won that game. Not debatable.

But it's a borderline case. I will always be disappointed in the lack of regular season success. And lack of division titles. Barely 500 and just 3 in 13 years as a starter - not even average. Philly and Dallas have had more regular season success. Again not all or even a majority on Eli but when you factor in ownership not changing the GM and just two coaches in that span -- I get championships are everything but so much more could have been accomplished here in my opinion.
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