Eli And The HOF (Other Than A 3rd SB Win ... )

In comment 13655117 NYSports1 said:

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In comment 13655065 Britt in VA said: Quote: Warren Moon didn't have a problem getting in with a 102-101 record, and he didn't have any Superbowls to pair with it. And he's 13th all time INT's. Does the era Moon played in with how the defense was allowed to play not count? The qb's today have a huge advantage over the qb's of the past due to rules heavily favoring the offenses

The goalposts will always be moving, won't they?

at it but doesn't tell the whole picture. Going by INT%, he's way down the list of active QBs...far below the likes of Rodgers, Ben, Brady, Rivers, etc. He's down with the scrubs.

In comment 13655132 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 13655117 NYSports1 said: Quote: In comment 13655065 Britt in VA said: Quote: Warren Moon didn't have a problem getting in with a 102-101 record, and he didn't have any Superbowls to pair with it. And he's 13th all time INT's. Does the era Moon played in with how the defense was allowed to play not count? The qb's today have a huge advantage over the qb's of the past due to rules heavily favoring the offenses The goalposts will always be moving, won't they?

yes - towards context and nuance.

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that is NOT in the HOF.

And don't even try Jim Plunkett.

Dude has 2 SB, 2 SB MVPs, 6th all time in passing yards, and the most winning New York Giants QB of all time. What is there to say?

He is already a HOF. He is in the top 10 or on the cusp of just about every QB stat. He is also ahead of his peers in most categories. Plus, those 2 rings should be enough.

in those two playoff runs, he beat:

The Number one seed in the NFC on the road (Dallas 13-3 2007 and Green Bay 15-1 2011)
The Number two seed in the NFC on the road (Green Bay 13-3 2007 and San Francisco 13-3 2011)
And the Number one seed in the AFC in the Superbowl (Patriots 16-0 2007, Patriots 13-3 2011)

BOTH TIMES.

Chew on that.

but he beat the best.

Multiple times.

why he should be HOF that are stone cold facts...

And a handful of reasons that he shouldn't like "people don't like him".

In comment 13655153 Britt in VA said:

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that is NOT in the HOF. And don't even try Jim Plunkett.

Actually, I can't think of another QB who career was remotely like Eli's in any way. He probably was never one of the top 5 QBs in any one season. Outside of the two SB runs, he's never won another playoff game. His performances could vary wildly in quality.

And yet he did play brilliantly in two separate underdog runs to championships, something no other QB other than those clearly in the top historical echelon at the position have done. His career is unique, that's for sure.

In comment 13655214 Greg from LI said:

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In comment 13655153 Britt in VA said: Quote: that is NOT in the HOF. And don't even try Jim Plunkett. Actually, I can't think of another QB who career was remotely like Eli's in any way. He probably was never one of the top 5 QBs in any one season. Outside of the two SB runs, he's never won another playoff game. His performances could vary wildly in quality. And yet he did play brilliantly in two separate underdog runs to championships, something no other QB other than those clearly in the top historical echelon at the position have done. His career is unique, that's for sure.

If Joe Namath is in the HOF for The Guarantee, then Eli should be in there for 18-1, which is the modern day version of that upset.

mystique than Eli does/will.

If I voted for the HoF, once Warner went in, Eli would have been a lock, but I don't.

You're presenting a case that the guys that do -- other than maybe King and Glauber -- aren't going to look at or value higher than the negative one against him and are seemingly being oblivious to how firmly entrenched the negative image/perception of him is now. He's a joke to the media at large, fans (including many/most Giant fans) think he's basically a luckier Jay Cutler or Joe Flacco and won't even give him the credit he deserves for 2011, and other players consistently show that they don't think much of or respect him (including many that played with him, given how comparatively frequently you'll see ex-teammates take shots at him). None of that is going to change by the time he's up for consideration, especially given how his career is likely to end and his statistical case, relative to his era and what stats are increasingly being weighted for QBs, simply isn't good enough to override it. There's going to be no out-swelling of support from any of these parties to push the committee in his favor.

It's not fair, the Giants pretty much blowing the second half of his career led us here and so much of that isn't his fault, but it's also not fair TO isn't in or Strahan had to wait a year.

His resume is too strong.

If they keep him out on perception, they run the risk of losing legitimacy.

nothing more.

if you were a HOF voter and somebody put his file on your desk with nothing but the facts with no name attached, you have to vote him in, and you would.

That's funny, because I ended up on the receiving end of a whole lotta blowback from the elderly crowd several years ago when I suggested that Joe Namath was the most overrated player in NFL history and didn't belong in Canton.

In any case, though, I can't disagree that Eli belongs if Namath does. He certainly has a much stronger case for inclusion.

Not putting a guy widely viewed even by most of his own fanbase as Jim Plunkett 2.0 (however ridiculous and it is ridiculous) won't. Few will care outside of pockets of Giant fans. Most will likely agree/applaud it and keep it moving.

In comment 13655250 Devon said:

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Not putting a guy widely viewed even by most of his own fanbase as Jim Plunkett 2.0 (however ridiculous and it is ridiculous) won't. Few will care outside of pockets of Giant fans. Most will likely agree/applaud it and keep it moving.

Well I guess we'll see, won't we.

If you give Phil Simms the receivers Eli has had, and place him in the pass-happy environment of the 2000s, he's the better QB and would be taking the express line to Canton. No doubt in my mind.

In comment 13655246 Britt in VA said:

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if you were a HOF voter and somebody put his file on your desk with nothing but the facts with no name attached, you have to vote him in, and you would.

so naive...

Other than 2011, how many times could you say Eli was among the top 5 QBs at his position in a given season?

Adding to this...how many years he was OUTSIDE the top 10?

In comment 13655237 Britt in VA said:

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His resume is too strong.

his cumulative statistical resume is impressive NOW. Will it always be that way? Probably not. His rates stats are not comparable to the slam dunk HOFers of his era. But I guess you just want to ignore all this? I can promise you that voters won't.

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If they keep him out on perception, they run the risk of losing legitimacy.

Seems like you are unfamiliar with the HOF's history of excluding players who most would deem slam dunks - several for ridiculous reasons.

I've provided enough proof to justify him being in.

It's you cherry pickers and goalpost movers that are asking questions, but not providing answers/data.

Burden of proof is on you to prove he doesn't belong

All 2 time Superbowl winning quarterbacks are in the HOF with the exception of Jim Plunkett.

your opinion is invalid.

In comment 13655280 Enzo said:

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In comment 13655237 Britt in VA said: Quote: His resume is too strong. his cumulative statistical resume is impressive NOW. Will it always be that way? Probably not. His rates stats are not comparable to the slam dunk HOFers of his era. But I guess you just want to ignore all this? I can promise you that voters won't. Quote: If they keep him out on perception, they run the risk of losing legitimacy. Seems like you are unfamiliar with the HOF's history of excluding players who most would deem slam dunks - several for ridiculous reasons.

How are they not comparable to the slam dunk HOFers of his era? He trails Brady, his brother, and Brees who are all older. He is ahead of his 2 closest peers in Rivers and Roethlisberger in most categories.

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Numbers don't lie: Why Giants QB Eli Manning is a lock for Hall of Fame Posted July 10, 2017 at 08:12 AM | Updated July 10, 2017 at 08:33 AM By Dan Duggan | NJ Advance Media for NJ.com Sometimes we don't appreciate what's in front of us. That seems to be the case with Giants quarterback Eli Manning. Manning gets picked apart more than any other two-time Super Bowl MVP. Then again, there are very few players that would even qualify for such criticism. Manning, Terry Bradshaw, Bart Starr, Joe Montana and Tom Brady are the only players to win multiple Super Bowl MVP awards. As much as some want to dismiss Manning as not being worthy of such elite company, his career stats show that he's much more than some average quarterback who got hot during two Super Bowl runs. A review of the NFL's career passing stats revealed the same names repeatedly in the top 10. And Manning was right there among a collection of the best quarterbacks ever. Here's a review of where Manning currently ranks in all of the major passing categories with a look at where he could wind up on the leader boards if he stays healthy and maintains his level of play during the final three seasons of his contract: PASSING YARDS Where he ranks: 8th 1. Peyton Manning: 71,940 2. Brett Favre: 71, 838 3. Drew Brees: 66,111 4. Tom Brady: 61,582 5. Dan Marino: 61,361 6. John Elway: 51,475 7. Warren Moon: 49,325 8. Eli Manning: 48,218 9. Fran Tarkenton: 47,003 10. Ben Roethlisberger: 46,814 Where he could rank after 2017 Manning should easily pass Moon to move into seventh place this season. He needs 3,258 yards to jump Elway for sixth place, which is close to a slam dunk. Manning hasn't thrown for less than 3,818 yards since the 2008 season. His career ceiling is likely the fifth spot. Marino has 13,143 more yards, so Manning will need three very productive seasons or four solid seasons to surpass the former Dolphin. PASSING TOUCHDOWNS Where he ranks: 7th 1. Peyton Manning: 539 2. Brett Favre: 508 3. Drew Brees: 465 4. Tom Brady: 456 5. Dan Marino: 420 6. Fran Tarkenton: 342 7. Eli Manning: 320 8. Philip Rivers: 314 9. Ben Roethlisberger: 301 10. John Elway: 300 Where he could rank after 2017 Sixth place is well within reach, as Manning needs 23 touchdowns to pass Tarkenton. Manning has thrown at least 23 touchdowns in 10 of his 12 seasons as a full-time starter. Once again, catching Marino at No. 5 is likely Manning's career ceiling. Marino has 100 more touchdown passes, so Manning will likely need four solid seasons to jump the Miami legend. PASSES COMPLETED Where he ranks: 7th 1. Brett Favre: 6,300 2. Peyton Manning: 6,125 3. Drew Brees: 5,836 4. Tom Brady: 5,244 5. Dan Marino: 4,967 6. John Elway: 4,123 7. Eli Manning: 4,072 8. Warren Moon: 3,988 9. Drew Bledsoe: 3,839 10. Philip Rivers: 3,811 Where he could rank after 2017 Manning could leap frog Elway into sixth place within the first two or three games, but he won't get any higher on the list this season. Manning should move into fifth place if he plays three more seasons. PASSES ATTEMPTED Where he ranks: 7th 1. Brett Favre: 10,169 2. Peyton Manning: 9,380 3. Drew Brees: 8,758 4. Dan Marino: 8,358 5. Tom Brady: 8,224 6. John Elway: 7,250 7. Eli Manning: 6,825 8. Warren Moon: 6,823 9. Drew Bledsoe: 6,717 10. Vinny Testaverde: 6,701 Where he could rank after 2017 Manning is a lock to pass Elway for sixth place this season. Brady figures to continue to climb the list, but Manning should pass Marino if he plays three more seasons. That would likely leave Manning at No. 5 overall. PASSES INTERCEPTED Where he ranks: 21st Many probably expected Manning to be higher on this list, but he's all the way down at 21 behind Favre, Tarkenton, Marino, Peyton Manning, Elway, Moon and Brees among the players frequently in the top 10 in the other categories. Where he could rank after 2017 Manning, who has 215 career interceptions, should jump quite a few spots this season. He figures to get to at least the 16th spot and he could move up to No. 15 if he throws more than 18 interceptions this season. Manning could end up in the top six if he continues his current pace for three more seasons. GAMES STARTED Where he ranks: 10th 1. Brett Favre: 298 2. Peyton Manning: 265 3. Dan Marino: 240 4. Fran Tarkenton: 239 5. Tom Brady: 235 6. Drew Brees: 232 7. John Elway: 231 8. Vinny Testaverde: 214 9. Warren Moon: 203 10. Eli Manning: 199 Where he could rank after 2017 As long as he stays healthy, Manning will move into eighth place on this list in 2017. He'll match Elway for seventh if he starts every game over the next two seasons. Manning will pass Tarkenton and Marino if he continues his consecutive starts streak for the next three seasons. That should leave Manning in fifth overall, assuming Brees and Brady play at least one more season. 4TH QUARTER COMEBACKS Where he ranks: 7th 1. Peyton Manning: 45 2. Tom Brady: 39 t-3. Dan Marino: 36 t-3. Johnny Unitas: 36 5. John Elway: 35 6. Joe Montana: 31 t-7. Brett Favre: 30 t-7. Eli Manning: 30 t-7. Fran Tarkenton: 30 10. Ben Roethlisberger: 29 Where he could rank after 2017 It's impossible to project fourth-quarter comebacks, but Manning has averaged more than two per seasons throughout his career. So, a jump to the sixth spot is a reasonable expectation for this season. IT'S NOT ALL GOOD ... Obviously, Manning's longevity has played a major role in his ascension up the career leader boards. He doesn't fare as well in some of the categories that don't reward longevity. He ranks 40th in passer rating (83.7) and tied for 43rd in completion percentage (59.7). Still, he's ahead of Elway, Marino, Moon and Tarkenton in completion percentage, and his passer rating is better than Elway, Moon and Tarkenton. HE'S A LOCK FOR CANTON Debating Manning's Hall of Fame-worthiness is silly. He's a two-time Super Bowl MVP who could rank in the top five of every major passing category by the end of his career. Every other quarterback repeatedly in the top 10 is in the Hall of Fame or is a lock to make it. That includes quarterbacks who don't have a postseason resume that compares to Manning's. Football isn't baseball where numbers mean everything, but it's impossible to ignore Manning's stats. Longevity obviously plays a role, but only great quarterbacks play long enough to amass such numbers and Manning's durability is another quality that adds to his value. Manning is a lock for the Hall of Fame. The only question remaining is if he makes it on the first ballot.

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him a stat compiler like he doesn't have any other accolades. That's the most perplexing part.

Vinny Testeverde was a stat compiler. Dave Kreig was a stat compiler. Mark Brunell was a stat compiler. Eli is a two time SB MVP who will also finish in the top 10 of nearly every passing category.

If he's a stat compiler, you can pretty much say that about any guy who has been under center for more than 12 years.

he ain't done yet.

When adjusted for his era, his passer rating, completion %, y/a, etc are absolutely middling at best and, whether you like it or not, there's an increasing focus put on those over counting stats, probably even more do going forward.

In comment 13655318 oldog said:

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he ain't done yet.

There's nothing he's going to realistically do in the time he has left that will change how he's viewed.

Unless he escapes this team and goes on to win a third title elsewhere in the few years he has left, his story is told.

In comment 13655252 Greg from LI said:

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If you give Phil Simms the receivers Eli has had, and place him in the pass-happy environment of the 2000s, he's the better QB and would be taking the express line to Canton. No doubt in my mind.

Too injury prone.

putting in any other QB that comes after him until they get him in.

He is a 2nd ballot hall of famer. Narrative on his propensity for INT's (which is true) plus his goofy face plus anti-NY bias prevents him from going in 1st ballot, but the HOF voters are numbers reliant guys- they can't keep him out.

In comment 13655300 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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him a stat compiler like he doesn't have any other accolades. That's the most perplexing part. Vinny Testeverde was a stat compiler. Dave Kreig was a stat compiler. Mark Brunell was a stat compiler. Eli is a two time SB MVP who will also finish in the top 10 of nearly every passing category. If he's a stat compiler, you can pretty much say that about any guy who has been under center for more than 12 years.

Plus, compilers are generally guys who were good, but not great, for an inordinate number of years. Your examples are perfect. Eli is playing right with his peers and is not only in the top 10 of virtually every category while still in his 30s, but he is ahead of his immediate peers, who are both regular Pro Bowlers and one is a multiple SB winner.

Is correct to me. In fact when you adjust stats for era Simms numbers are comparable to Eli's. There was an article about how mark Rypien and Phil simms were probably Eli's best comparisons for career body of work. I'll find and post.

I believe Phil probably IS Eli's closest comp career wise-- 2 sbs and mvp of superbowl(of course Phil got the 2nd ring but did not play), never all-pro but up there often-more very good that great. Personally believe Phil should be considered given his record and importance to nyg 80s team.

Is full of issues. His passing pct is better than players from the 80s? Better be! If a factor was applied to his qb rating that adjusted for era he would be far lower as well than 40th overall.

In comment 13655403 hassan said:

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Is correct to me. In fact when you adjust stats for era Simms numbers are comparable to Eli's. There was an article about how mark Rypien and Phil simms were probably Eli's best comparisons for career body of work. I'll find and post. I believe Phil probably IS Eli's closest comp career wise-- 2 sbs and mvp of superbowl(of course Phil got the 2nd ring but did not play), never all-pro but up there often-more very good that great. Personally believe Phil should be considered given his record and importance to nyg 80s team.

You can play that game all day long. Simms didn't have the receivers but he played with a historically great defense his entire career and a HoF TE his entire career.

Simms was a good QB but he simply missed too much time due to injury and doesn't have the numbers to justify HoF.

Eli would get my vote. Longevity, the rings, the Super Bowl MVPs. I'm not as confident as others that the guys who vote will see it that way, though.

The other thing I can see keeping him out is if they decide to be stricter on QBs than anticipated. I'd be mad if Ben gets in but Eli doesn't. But both being excluded due to a higher threshold would make some sense to me. Rodgers, Brees, and Brady being the only active guys to get in (and maybe Ryan if he wins a Super Bowl and another MVP), for example (excluding the post-2010 draftees here).

The case against Eli is simple, though: He's only been a top five QB once (2011). I don't think it's sufficient to keep him out.

Eli's had an extremely bizzare career. To Greg's point, I don't think there's a good comp. But I do think Eli is more deserving than a few that are already in.

I also dont think voters will give a shit about supporting cast. They are mostly media guys, their analysis will be superficial.

In comment 13654993 Devon said:

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In comment 13654942 Britt in VA said: Quote: than the NFL's current fans are. History is going to look at him as a very durable guy with two highly improbable titles and what will likely be a barely .500 record that was his era's turnover king, with below average for his era rate stats. The subjective narrative stuff won't be much kinder, given how entrenched it is/will be -- hell the case I've seen a couple HOF writers make for Coughlin as a HOFer is largely based on him somehow winning two titles with Eli at QB; that's a huge snapshot into how they view him and it's not close to well. It shouldn't have ended up this way, it's honestly not fair, but that's what how his career has played out post SB 46 has done. Some of you are putting on some blinders with this and are going to end up just as disappointed as I imagine folks were the first few years with Simms not getting in, before acceptance finally hit.

What a nonsensical post...

The "Since 2012" Eli not being good argument.

Hmm...can we clarify why he's not having the best of years behind that wonderful offensive line Reese has built for him since that time? I think any quarterback would look like trash behind the 2013 line guarding for Eli...

To determine if a player gets in than you are not a HOF in my eyes at least. Being considered a HOF should be easy to determine and not based on having compiled stats in a league where it is designed to have the QB succeed far more than before Eli was drafted. Eli is comparable to Andy Dalton the last 7 years. A bit more tds and a bit more picks...Eli had his first half career include terrible games but 2 glorious sb seasons but second half it has gone down hill fast..1 trip to the playoffs in about 7 years or so. It might turn out that Eli will miss the playoffs in about 8 out of his last 10 seasons. If stats matter than that is a glaring one...Which is the last qb to get in having that on the resume?

5-10 years after Eli retires, his states will be crushed by the likes of Stafford and Matt Ryan....And I dont think those guys are lock HOF

So stats mean little now due to the league being a passing league where Tight Ends are now receivers and there are no full backs and the defense cant touch you. Qb's are protected like never before...If a qb cant put up numbers in this league than they dont belong in an NFL field.

Simms in todays game would have awesome numbers with OBJ Plax, Shockey, Tiki, Toomer, etc etc

In comment 13655864 Route 9 said:

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The "Since 2012" Eli not being good argument. Hmm...can we clarify why he's not having the best of years behind that wonderful offensive line Reese has built for him since that time? I think any quarterback would look like trash behind the 2013 line guarding for Eli...

No a qb like Eli who is a stone footed qb and throw quick to avoid hits would suck behind this line...Rodgers has a terrible line...he is playing without his tackles this year and yet carries the team...No run game either..No OBJ type of talent...Eli can win for sure but you need to build a superior oline...A qb who makes his money needs to make others better and carry the team

thats bs. Simms had 3 years of dynamic Bavaro. Bavaro started getting dinged and lost effectiveness. And he was not a hall of famer.

I bring him up because Simms is probably the second most important player on a Giants team that won 2. If every steeler just about made it from the 70s why is it a stretch to say Simms deserved it if a Warren Moon, who was a stat accumulator galore with no post season success whatsoever in?

Plus, he's been hurt a few times, unlike Eli.

Rodgers is a HOF BTW, who else can be compared to him from this era besides Brady and Peyton?

This is a discussion about Eli for HOF

With the shitty offensive line and the defense was pitiful those years

Everyone assumes current QB's will pass him, but I think some of you aren't considering just how hard it is to play long at that position. Everyone considered luck the next Peyton Manning when he entered the league, but now he can't even stay on the field. There is no guarantee anyone passes him or can play as long. I think some of you don't realize just how hard it is for any player, especially a QB to play this long in the league.

Andrew Luck, another BBI hall of fame lock.

the top will be defeating the Pats twice to win SB MVP. This is the most under-appreciated accomplishment possibly in sports.

His stats are a better show of longevity than greatness when you adjust for the way the league is now. But the stats are still impressive and warrant eventually getting in.

There are several things the HOF and the rest of the country do NOT care about however... that homers need to realize
--- they dont grade QBs based on the OL they played with
--- they dont blame every INT on Manningham, Randle, or some other random global event