OK, so I have two teenagers. Our son, aka in these parts as BeezKid, who some of you have met at camps, tailgates, etc., is a terrific, low-maintenance kid. Now 19, we've had a few usual bumps, but for the most part, an easy kid to raise.
Now, BeezGirl ... just turned 17 in August and a high school senior, a different animal.
Good kid in general. Solid if not great grades. Active in our community (president of the local Key Club (Kiwanis high school arm of the organization), and lots of other volunteerism over the years. Thoughtful kid. Athlete (has played field hockey, soccer and has been a swimmer, but basketball is her game - very good player ... may be able to play in college with the right fit at the D3 level - my best guess). So, we're not talking about a complete train wreck here. Just a girl who's pushing limits, testing, etc.
This past summer she got connected with a couple girls through her job who, after some time to assess, WERE train wrecks. Lousy homes, unnecessary drama, some mental health issues, mayyyybe some mild drug use (suspected, but not confirmed). The summer was a struggle with her for my wife and I. Rough couple months. We think we are past that chapter, as those girls are college sophs, and seem to have moved on.
Back in the summertime, though, our daughter apparently began vaping. I realize this isn't a huge red flag for a lot of people. But consider that my wife and I grew up pretty straight arrows. She had a somewhat pristine childhood, and aside from taking the car places her mom didn't know about, she was a self-described "goody-goody. My childhood was far from that, but overall pretty tame, too. I was an athlete in school, and both my parents smoked, so I became a "smoke Nazi." I was anti-drug and didn't even drink all that much (when the legal drinking age was 18 in NYS).
Maybe in July, we found a vape ... what do you even call them? machine? lol in her bedroom. It was right out there on her night stand and apparently she forgot it was there and so? We took it. Total knee-jerk reaction. Minor stereotypical parent eruption followed by same from the teen. Told her it was bad ... illegal for her (16 at the time - STILL technically illegal in NYS at age 17). And we moved on. Never thought "that's the end of that." But hoped maybe it would be another passing thing.
I took her car this morning before work to get gas and some routine fluid checks, as I do every few weeks (it's an '04 Civic - great car, but power steering has a slow leak, and it does drop a tiny bit of oil). Her purse was pushed under the driver seat and it's a small purse ... looked like something jammed inside. I looked. Vape ... vaping liquid, and some additional flavored stuff for the vape.
I finished up with the car. Left everything as it was.
I texted my wife. We're going to talk later.
Our daughter's main sport is coming up here with open gyms next week, and she and I were going to start lifting together Sat and Sun morning to get her going in that direction. So here I am thinking, WTF? How can she be doing this shit when she has so much positive going on?
Talk to me, people. I don't know if I have specific questions. Just looking for thoughts ... preferably from parents of teens, but you young fuckers might offer different perspectives, as well.
I thought maybe tomorrow morning during our workout, I might ask what we can do to help her set the Vaping aside. That lets her know we know ... but maybe (maybe?) wouldn't put her as much on the defensive.
It would indeed be a violation of her signed agreement with her school athletics department, if she was found to be Vaping. But as she put it when we took the first one away, "everybody Vapes," and even the athletes, she says. (Sucks, but I believe that.)
Not sure how we're going to address this. But I think it deserves at very least a conversation with the girl.
Your thoughts?
Happy Friday, all! Knicks suck! Yee-haw!
It will likely pass or she will vape. Keep an eye on her tho ,
You seem like a great father. You care a lot.
Anyway, not sure about vaping other than the fact that I see alot of people vaping every day as I walk around the city. I'm pretty sure there are alot worse things but understand your concern.
My own youngest daughter, a junior aged 16, has been going through some difficult times. I don't think she's vaping or any alcohol/drugs, but just pushing boundaries.
But when I think about how WELL she is doing I'm just so proud of her. A co-captain of her cheerleader team (current holder of state titles), president and two time national finalist of the Business Professionals of America, concurrently enrolled in several college courses and still has a chance to graduate HS with an associates degree. She's independent, strong, confident, loved by her teachers, has tons of friends and lots of guys are interested in her but she's committed to none of them.
Sometimes it's best not to overreact to things and recognize how good your kids are doing.
In response to the quoted question you asked - could she be doing these things because of all the stress she is under to perform? Very possible that she feels a little overwhelmed with everything and is finding the vape pen as the escape she needs.
Try talking with her really listening to her. Remind yourself of how great she is before you do this so you're less likely to judge her and she'll be more likely to open up to you.
Good luck!
I am not a parent yet, but I was doing way worse shit as a kid at your kids age. Much of which I am kind of ashamed of to admit.
Obviously you don't want your daughter to get addicted to smoking anything, but at the least, she is at least smoking a healthier option than cigarettes.
Vaping is all the rage right now, especially with the 17-20 something set.
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So here I am thinking, WTF? How can she be doing this shit when she has so much positive going on?
My own youngest daughter, a junior aged 16, has been going through some difficult times. I don't think she's vaping or any alcohol/drugs, but just pushing boundaries.
But when I think about how WELL she is doing I'm just so proud of her. A co-captain of her cheerleader team (current holder of state titles), president and two time national finalist of the Business Professionals of America, concurrently enrolled in several college courses and still has a chance to graduate HS with an associates degree. She's independent, strong, confident, loved by her teachers, has tons of friends and lots of guys are interested in her but she's committed to none of them.
Sometimes it's best not to overreact to things and recognize how good your kids are doing.
In response to the quoted question you asked - could she be doing these things because of all the stress she is under to perform? Very possible that she feels a little overwhelmed with everything and is finding the vape pen as the escape she needs.
Try talking with her really listening to her. Remind yourself of how great she is before you do this so you're less likely to judge her and she'll be more likely to open up to you.
Good luck!
Good angle, good points, Dan. Thanks.
Yeah yeah ... I had sex for the first time at 17 ... but goddammit! BeezGirl also has a boyfriend and ...
Man, this is hard!
Sexist post of the day, but real: Never worried about my son and sex - just advised him to wrap it and be smart. But some punk wants to what??? With my little girl???
Shit ... more than I can take some days. lol
Relatively good shape for a guy my age. But damn, how many years has this girl taken off my life, just in the last 3-4 months!
You have to be tough! You have to snoop;
Don't listen to status quo (including some very misguided professionals) who tell you 'not to snoop'.
Some of you guys remember our struggle at freebluelove/alligatorpie/idiotsavant family (baby mamma has mental illness, state of NY gave her much more leverage than wisdom would require, and that's me being very polite).
We have two teens: recently her 'family group service' (obviously, there will be problems when that happens and I do my mea culpas as well) told her
''its best not to snoop''...!
Bullshit. Snoop....and have rules, and have consequences, and pay lots of attention.
What is toxic is not the attention, not the rules, it is the years and years (in our case) of narcissistic neglect that is rampant in such families (not yours mr. beez)
Visit the 'worse kids' home, you will see the mother doting on her pets, or her drama, or her addictions, or her obsessions from the get-go, but not doting on the kids. Its no wonder they grow up self serving and negative. This shit is not rocket science.
I think all you can do at your daughter's age is offer advice and disallow certain things under your roof.
In the big picture my fears are more about my kids getting in a car with someone drinking or high or being out of control. Doesn't seem like that with your daughter.
While I'd make my feeling known about my 17 year old vaping, smoking, drinking, etc. I don't think you have cause for concern based on the other facts you included.
I'm no expert and obviously don't know your daughter, but she doesn't seem like she's on a wayward path toward heroin addiction. Seems like a typical teen.
- "weed and fake weed are legal" (not in my house)
- "too much parental involvement is a bad sign and poor for the kid development"
(so said the fucking rampant peadophiles, pimps, 'house mamas' and the random social-working communists who want to get their own hands on your children)
Problem is, so many dads are on the horns of a dilemma:
- having been unable to be there often enough prior [redacted] and... knowing that the attention is not only healing, but necessary, due to all the above, but also ...seeing that the kids must be allowed to grow up...its a time crunch.
On top of all that, many kids are being taught to self hate:
"its ok to hate white people because 'they' (we in our case) have all the 'power' so the hate doesn't hurt"
(bullshit, hate is hate, they are teaching our little girls to negate themselves). And no, we don't have 'power' any more than anyone else - in reality, as our story strongly attests to.
"monogamy and caring about feelings, especially feelings of attachment is old fashioned, part of the 'patriarchy' "
(requiring that our little girls negate their most personal and sacred inner emotions and loyalties).
This 'new age' sucks gigantic moose balls.
it is also extremely important to provide them with support and to treat them the way you would want others to treat them. Particularly in the case of daughters -- a father's treatment serves as an example of what they look for in boyfriends and partners. Make sure you are not abusive but respectful and serve as a reasonable choice.
She is becoming an adult and needs to be able to make her own choices. If you don't let her do that she will definitely flee where you do not want her to go in rebellion.
So you can let her know what you believe in and why and what you think is wrong or unhealthy - and she needs to hear that -- but as others have said you have to listen and respect what she has to say.
If her father doesn't respect her - she will learn to accept that as a way she should be treated.
If your daughter wanted a weed vaping pen she'd get one. I'd have a simple convo and just ask her about it. See what she says and based on her reaction you can assess the situation and address.
Freaking out is the last thing you should do, IMO.
Like when you and your wife go out to a movie or the grocery store, facetiously and playfully ask Mrs Beez "hey honey, you have your purse? you car keys? your e-vaper?"
Or try "Mrs Beez dont forget your vape, we want to make sure that we look cool in front of our friends!" all while your daughter is in earshot, or in the room.
Don't do it negatively, do it with humor. And try to call the "vape" by the wrong name. Like the "iVape," or the "e-smoke" NOTHING irks kids more than when you try and fail to be cool with them.
If you yell at your kid, she'll see you as trying to make her FEEL immature like a 9yr old, and she'll vape like a 17yr old to show you otherwise (and because teenagers).
If you get your jollies from her, she'll actually FEEL 17yr, and want to feel older like you, and give it up out of embarrassment.
Maybe as a teen she just wants to be taken seriously. When she vapes, she feels like an adult, and when you approach it seriously and get upset, you're hitting that mark for her.
But when she realizes that vaping makes adults take her less seriously, she might react differently.
For example, I never questioned my kids with regards to personal style, choice of classes, sexuality (given the no sex rule), choice of schools even, hair cuts, apparel, and so forth.
Its drugs, alcohol, sex, homework, where I do have rules.
Their mother, by contrast, would take turns either neglecting the kids, or stubbornly obsessing and controlling small details such as what shirt they were going to wear and when. To me, that level of control is negating and saps the will. As does neglect.
Do not shut it down. Get to know her for who she is so that as she navigates these other issues, she does not have to be in the middle of a conflict between her peers and parents. Most will choose their peers, primarily because the reality is that she a kid, and it only vaping, or pot or other things that don't matter in the long run.
What matters is that she's a as good of a kid as she appears and she continues to make most of her decisions well, and keeps her respect for family
That said, if one DOES find actual drugs or booze, simply having a 'chat' wont do it.
Yes, have the talk (and who hasn't had it?), but, one needs to snoop and interfere - if it comes to that.
For example, all of my sons friends know our house rules. they know because I told them.
Being 16 year olds, some will try to break those rules. I told them, ''I cannot tell you what to do, but if you want to be here, we have rules in this house''.
For our own children and teens it is just as toxic to totally withhold the use of our authority and simply rely on soft 'peer to peer' conversations as it is to be overbearing.
They are -just as likely- to test you in that 'too soft' circumstance as they will in the 'overbearing' circumstance, as they really do need to feel those boundaries.
My biggest worry would be a nicotine addiction, or that she is vaping THC oil on the daily, but the best thing to do is the old, "I'm not mad, I'm disappointed" routine and move on.
She's at an age where you (kinda) can't control what she is going to do. College is right around the corner. She's going to make mistakes. Whether that's unprotected sex, or head in the toilet in a rather unsanitary Fraternity toilet, it's not going to matter in the long run.
The only thing to worry about is things you can't come back from, like a pill addiction or, you know, Crack. Otherwise, by the time she is 25 and in graduate school, this will all seem like a dream.
Whereas we, at our age, way back when, had 'the ice storm' (film reference; neglect because our parents were swingers, or alcoholics, or both, and so forth),
...these kids have the 'it takes a village' ...same result, in some cases, neglect or avoidance, in some cases, but now more formalized, excused and rationalized.
Bottom line, if you, as a parent, feel, for whatever reason, that your child is more at risk for addiction or psychosis -from drugs and drinks- than other kids are,
- you should be able to act accordingly without being told otherwise by the 'all knowing community.'
With respect to the peers, the same logic applies.
You respect the authority of their parents - first and foremost.
However, if your child is at risk, and the peer is/are in your house, you should feel free to say, 'I don't want my kid smoking weed', or what have you...directly to the teen in question. its back to the obvious basic values.
Was watching CSPAN the other day on the rapid increase in opiates deaths. More now than car deaths. Oxy, heroin, ect. killing people by the droves.
We may be making a huge mistake if we 'get the conventional wisdom' from 'normal people', because, as I said above:
-different. substances. will. effect. different. individuals. in. -wildly- different. ways.
It does not mean that they are 'bad', or 'defective', not at all- but it may mean that they are 1000x more at risk ...and your response should be according to that, not according to any broadly guiding narrative.
One doesn't want to look back and wish that they had broken down that door.
Opioids could kill nearly half a million people across America over the next decade as the crisis of addiction and overdose accelerates.
Deaths from opioids have been rising sharply for years, and drug overdoses already kill more Americans under age 50 than anything else. STAT asked leading public health experts at 10 universities to forecast the arc of the epidemic over the next decade. The consensus: It will get worse before it gets better.
There are now nearly 100 deaths a day from opioids, a swath of destruction that runs from tony New England suburbs to the farm country of California, from the beach towns of Florida to the Appalachian foothills.
In the worst-case scenario put forth by STAT’s expert panel, that toll could spike to 250 deaths a day, if potent synthetic opioids like fentanyl and carfentanil continue to spread rapidly and the waits for treatment continue to stretch weeks in hard-hit states like West Virginia and New Hampshire.
If that prediction proves accurate, the death toll over the next decade could top 650,000. That’s almost as many Americans as will die from breast cancer and prostate cancer during that time period. Put another way, opioids could kill nearly as many Americans in a decade as HIV/AIDS has killed since that epidemic began in the early 1980s.
''
She sounds like a bright young lady, maybe it would be good to inform her of possible dangers. Just appeal to her common sense. It's all so new that realistically we wont find out all the long term effects until years from now.
Here is one article I just Googled, there probably are a lot more.
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Link - ( New Window )
Any kidding aside, I'm sure things will happen and I am not looking forward to those things and am mostly nervous about my ability to react in a productive way. I've calmed over the years, which is probably why nature gives us the 10-13 years prior to prepare. Not that I want to skip ahead, but it will be nice when things have settled beyond the coming storms...
Sounds like vaping is like smoking Cigarettes back in your high school days.
Now I pose this question to you. When you were in high school, do you think the smokers stopped smoking when/if they were confronted by their parents?
My guess is probably not. She's hiding it from you because you don't approve. It probably won't stop if you confront her about it. She's going to have to make her own decisions in a very short period of time. Chances are if you push she might rebel further.
If it was my daughter I would tell her to cut friends with them fast, if they've used drugs. That's just the way I operate, for myself, that is.
Anyway, the cheer coach called to tell us how bad she felt because my daughter went to the principal with a petition to get her fired. Apparently she wanted to show support for her friend who had been bullied. We knew nothing about it and told the coach we felt bad but that we had been and still were supportive. We weren't sure what was going on but reassured her that our daughter, just the day before, had texted her mom about how much she loved her coach.
When my daughter got home we were both upset with her and let it show. She was in tears - it was clear to us that she hadn't thought through the consequences of her actions. She listened to us for a while, rolling her eyes and eventually when we were done she stormed off. Clearly a loss.
The next day I told her how much I loved her and how proud I was of her. I listed all of her great qualities that I admire in her. I told her that I wanted to understand better what was going on in cheer. She opened up to me and explained why she really went against her cheer coach. Apparently the cheer coach WAS the root of the problem, by creating a culture that fostered very poor behaviors. She regularly used meanness and profanities in pointing out mistakes. She had a "unique" way of dealing with bullying behaviors she did observe, like name calling, which was to hit the offender with a stick. She considered that punishment complete.
Now, we never knew any of this. She's dealing with so much more than we could imagine. It killed her to go against her coach. We were able to remind her that she was bound to us for life in a way she would not be to any of her friends or coaches, and because of that she could always know that we were going to have her best interests in heart. We asked her to not keep us in the dark about these kinds of things so she could benefit from our experience.
In the end, not sure this has anything to do with your situation, but it always helps when I try listening to my kids with the right perspective - respect, admiration, trust are essential for them to open up and share with you.
Never.
BUT, being a curmudgeon and a pain in the ass and a naysayer -I- sometimes see things that are wrong , or hurting my kids, but my kids loyalty (which I am very, very proud of - at the same time) precludes fixing it. Its a tough call.
Possibly like your daughter maybe, after a while, given such, if true, the kids might just -change direction-,
and the new direction is not always a good one. So you speak out if you can, or have a venue.
For example, at one of the schools, a school staff person mentioned something to do with ''making sure each kid has 'a thing''. But the way they said it, it seemed almost like 'a shtick' or 'a simple story'....like, a 'talent or activity tag to stick to his/her transcript'.
Now, I am -fully behind-, and tell them all the time, to 'work hard at the things you love'. 100%.
BUT, I think it can be a bit demeaning to try to make the growing process into a sort of a promotions game.
As if 'acting' or 'art' or 'baseball' defines your kid, as a human being, or as if, they will need those labels to access college.
Maybe, for some kids, struggling to overcome youthful living, family problems, or simply being different, -is an achievement onto itself-, and in many kids, especially if its not in the prevalent narrative, it is not recognized.
they get a bit older, want something more real, or what they think is more real, and the game seems fake to them.
"Help encourage your kids to have and develop their interests" is quite a different thing from "your kid needs X number of 'interests' to appear well-rounded." I do think part of the process in the 19-20 years is shedding the false 'interests' and discovering real passions.
That being said, college admission is a 'judge a book by its cover' affair. Anyone tasked with helping children get to college must acknowledge that, too. It's an ugly business.
Not what I would have chosen, but that is where the -respect- comes into play as they become individual people.
Also, with her, I had to be often MIA during the earlier formative years, so, woulda shoulda coulda about the sports part. Plenty of aptitude and strength.
I think there may be nuance in how the 'interests label thing' is presented, some people will, some kids will, simply accept it as 'the game' and for others, 'gaming' itself, is a bit repelling.
For my son, its been more complicated, as an IEP kid, it was almost as if they precluded, barred, his actual interests, to a certain degree, already, as a matter of policy (complicated and not for this thread), and so, being now a somewhat normal kid, but lacking his strong 'interest' that he expressed as a younger one. So, for him, the college process seems more problematic.
For him, being 'normal' is a very strange journey anyway...how to get 'credits' for that? No idea.
One thing, my wife looked at the article that someone posted (as I did before sending the link to her) and we think we'll share that with her. She cares about her physical health, so that may have an impact.
I'm mulling this: Not taking anything away from her, but telling her that the vaping items and the action is not permitted in our home because we don't support her doing it. Also, that she needs to respect that we allow her to drive a car we own, and to not have any of it in our vehicle(s). That may limit it. Not sure if that will be a course of action, but considering that as part.
Also been thinking about just asking her: Why do you use a vape? What is in it for you? To what benefit? Physical? Emotional?
It's a delicate dance. lol. I don't want to shit on her and push her away. Even during the hardest times last summer, there were a few occasions where she seemed to think I was the devil, but in one instance, a teen who plays basketball in my program began shitting on me (typical ... trying to push him, hold him accountable, and he freaked) and my daughter wanted to tear him a new asshole. She is FIERCELY loyal and ALL about family. Extended, too, but amazingly strongly connected with my wife and I and her brother. May be a way to go there ... to make that work in my favor, too.
Having raised 2 kids (girl and boy) who are in their mid 20s, I cannot stress enough not to underestimate who their friends are and who they hang out with. Have seen several times (including on my wife's side) where "friends" have been terrible influences. Far, far worse than having to deal with vaping. You want to instill the right values, right-from-wrong and set a good example so they can recognize who they need to distance themselves from peers that they should not be friends with.
Again, I'm no expert; just offering from personal experience.
I work with teens, and I've read a decent amount about adolescent brain development, and for better or worse pushing boundaries is hard wired into this development. How it manifests differs, but its often inevitable. When teen s argue or push things, it is often to see your reaction and gauge your investment, even when this is subconscious.
As I said, some are in very dark places. Some are even dead, heroin is a big problem here in Little Egg Harbor...
One thing, my wife looked at the article that someone posted (as I did before sending the link to her) and we think we'll share that with her. She cares about her physical health, so that may have an impact.
I'm mulling this: Not taking anything away from her, but telling her that the vaping items and the action is not permitted in our home because we don't support her doing it. Also, that she needs to respect that we allow her to drive a car we own, and to not have any of it in our vehicle(s). That may limit it. Not sure if that will be a course of action, but considering that as part.
Also been thinking about just asking her: Why do you use a vape? What is in it for you? To what benefit? Physical? Emotional?
It's a delicate dance. lol. I don't want to shit on her and push her away. Even during the hardest times last summer, there were a few occasions where she seemed to think I was the devil, but in one instance, a teen who plays basketball in my program began shitting on me (typical ... trying to push him, hold him accountable, and he freaked) and my daughter wanted to tear him a new asshole. She is FIERCELY loyal and ALL about family. Extended, too, but amazingly strongly connected with my wife and I and her brother. May be a way to go there ... to make that work in my favor, too.
Beez, it sounds like you have a really great kid. AND, someone who typically both loves AND TRUSTS you guys. I wouldn't snoop...I'd talk to her directly, like you're suggesting.
God knows I did plenty of stuff in my late teens that would make me lose my mind as a parent now. I wish I could go back and say sorry to my parents about some of the stupid shit I did (and this was obviously before social media and being in contact constantly). Good luck, you're a good father and that's something to be proud of. I hope you laugh about this at her wedding years from now.