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Reese's pieces

Hilary : 10/24/2017 11:54 am
I know that most on this board will not agree, but my feeling is that the 1-6 record is more on the coach than the GM. The giants were competitive in games 2-6 and competitive at least by the score in the last game into the 4th quarter. While it is clear that Reese should have done more than bring in Fluker and Bisnowaty to bolster the line, it is also clear that the coaching staff did not make the best use of the talent they were given. A line of Flowers,Jerry,Jones,Fluker,Pugh Engram and Ellison with OBJ and Shepard would have been good enough to win some of those games if not all of them.The players chosen in 2016 Apple,Shepard,Thompson,Goodson and maybe Perkins have the ability to be good NFL players.Engram,Tomlinson, Gallman and Moss is not a bad draft.Webb could make it a very good draft.The Giants need to play Webb to see what they have and possibly to establish trade value but the coach is unlikely to do that.
Reese has set this franchise back 5 or 6 years  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/24/2017 11:57 am : link
and completely ruined the 2nd half of Eli's prime.

Fuck him.
You make an interesting  
jvm52106 : 10/24/2017 11:59 am : link
point in that we were in those games but lost them. Is that coaching or the talent just not good enough. Clearly BM stuck to his offense even with all signs in pre-season showing this team wasn't very good offensively. Leaving Flowers alone at tackle was a huge mistake. Having a FB on the roster was well as 4 TE's, while still going 3 wide a TON made little to no sense. Why buy a coffee grinder if you buy ground coffee anyway? Why have hire pool cleaner if you have no pool. The way we put the roster together was in direct contradiction to how we played the games.

A lot can be pointed at BM here.
RE: Reese has set this franchise back 5 or 6 years  
chuckydee9 : 10/24/2017 12:05 pm : link
In comment 13663095 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
and completely ruined the 2nd half of Eli's prime.

Fuck him.


Thats my feeling.. Eli should've had much better team around him than what JR has provided for.. too many misses and no hits in the later rounds in a decade.. May be he needs to be demoted so that he can concentrate on draft prospects.. but it ain't working out as GM...
I think the OP is partly correct  
Rjanyg : 10/24/2017 12:32 pm : link
McAdoo's job is to put his players in a position to succeed. He has a mediocre line and has Eli drop back 70% of the time. He keeps 4 TE on the roster and only uses 1. He has issues running the ball for the first 3 games and then decides to put Fluker at RG. He keeps a FB but doesn't use him then cuts him. He basically shuts Eli down for the preseason then expects him to come out and light it up in game 1 with no chemistry with Ellison, Marshall or Engram and OBJ on the sideline hurt.

However, Reese needs to realize that our O Line needed some infusion of top tier talent if Eli is gonna be the QB.
Why do we always assume to blame just one  
Rory : 10/24/2017 12:49 pm : link
point person for a multitude of issues? Does Jerry Reese have fault here? , of course he does but how can you not see everyone is culpable.

3 things to point out

1. Its not like Reese ignored the offensive line the last few years, that is a fucking myth around here. In the last 5 years he drafted 6 offensive lineman and would have probably had a 7th if Conclin was available instead of Apple last year

2 Consider FA's now, in hindsight Whitworth seems like a mistake but hes fucking 35 and he got 33 million, do you not allocate money for Pugh LC and OBJ for the future? Same with Mitchel Schwartz who also got 33 mill, do you not sign 1 of the big 3 on D that year? Dont forget Reese got burned with his brother Geoff and David Baas so I can see some hesitation in the FA market. Oh we forget that though....

3. Coaching , player ability, injuries , scheme , and even some of the behind the scenes things we don't see go on are all reasons for this season. So to pin it all on Jerry Reeese is bullshit, people hate to hear it but the guy has put together 2 Superbowl winning rosters and that draft class last year resembles the one in 07. Plus he went against the grain and drafted OBj (when we needed oline). One more thing, what he did in FA last year is unheard of and everyone single one of you now takes that for granted

I'm adding a 4th point , look around the league. Everyone is struggling at o-line. Watch college ball, the talent just isn't coming out of the draft like it did.
False dichotomy  
idiotsavant : 10/24/2017 12:52 pm : link
It looks like both
Its both the coach and the GM  
Giants86 : 10/24/2017 1:00 pm : link
I blame Reese more for this though. Its his players. Mac is just in over his head at this point. The whole organization isn't very good these days.
The myth  
Chip : 10/24/2017 1:05 pm : link
Unfortunately his draft picks on the OL have been bad and that is on him. Flowers has been a bust and Richburg is being outplayed by a free agent. Pugh is a little better than average but for a 1st rounder you want more.

Allowing the TE position to be manned by Tye and Donnell for years is also on him. Has even drafted a LB before the 3rd round. He should be fired.

If Reese signed off on Macadoo then  
bradshaw44 : 10/24/2017 1:05 pm : link
This is all at his feet. End of discussion.
It's like threads that presume  
idiotsavant : 10/24/2017 1:06 pm : link
To choose between two players for a given draft pick. How silly. Thousands of kids play football. Hundreds attend the combine and honestly it could be 4x that really.

It's a way to leverage the discourse
RE: The myth  
Rory : 10/24/2017 1:22 pm : link
In comment 13663197 Chip said:
Quote:
Unfortunately his draft picks on the OL have been bad and that is on him. Flowers has been a bust and Richburg is being outplayed by a free agent. Pugh is a little better than average but for a 1st rounder you want more.

Allowing the TE position to be manned by Tye and Donnell for years is also on him. Has even drafted a LB before the 3rd round. He should be fired.


First Flowers is not a bust he's shown great improvement as of late. Richburgh is hurt , Pugh is playing RT for the first time in 3 years.

TE is a hard position to get what you want. Donnell had the attributes just not the focus and Reese put that on the coaches which didn't work. Tye had the focus just not the attributes and Jerrel Adams was a rookie.

Reese values impact positions such as pass rusher , cornerback and WR's. OT and safety's are second to that. Which means you plug and play guard center rb te and Lb's
Reese hired McAdoo  
JohnB : 10/24/2017 1:26 pm : link
That is on him too.

If McAdoo was a mistake, that's a HUGE check mark in the "Negative" side of the ledger for Reese. You can't overlook that.
RE: Reese hired McAdoo  
jcn56 : 10/24/2017 1:29 pm : link
In comment 13663238 JohnB said:
Quote:
That is on him too.

If McAdoo was a mistake, that's a HUGE check mark in the "Negative" side of the ledger for Reese. You can't overlook that.


Did he though? I've never seen it reported that Reese hired the guy - do the Giants give coaching management responsibility to the FO? EA's book made it clear that he didn't want Coughlin but that W.Mara did, and he had no say in the matter. When did that change?
RE: RE: Reese hired McAdoo  
Dan in the Springs : 10/24/2017 1:41 pm : link
In comment 13663241 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13663238 JohnB said:


Quote:


That is on him too.

If McAdoo was a mistake, that's a HUGE check mark in the "Negative" side of the ledger for Reese. You can't overlook that.



Did he though? I've never seen it reported that Reese hired the guy - do the Giants give coaching management responsibility to the FO? EA's book made it clear that he didn't want Coughlin but that W.Mara did, and he had no say in the matter. When did that change?



I don't know if McAdoo was Reese's guy, but I do believe he was all in on it. Here's what Mara said following the Coughlin dismissal/retirement:
Quote:
"Jerry knows this is on him. I've had that discussion with him," Giants co-owner John Mara said. "He can't hide from the record. It's up to you to get it fixed because the last three years just were not acceptable."


With that kind of language, Reese would have been a fool to not speak up loudly against McAdoo if he didn't want him. Clearly ownership makes the final call, but it requires a real stretch to think that Reese was opposed to it.
That quote is supposed to prove he was all-in on McAdoo?  
jcn56 : 10/24/2017 1:45 pm : link
When it doesn't even mention the coaches or a coaching decision? Wasn't that before McAdoo was even hired?
Just take a good look at the other  
prdave73 : 10/24/2017 1:51 pm : link
NFC east teams roster and that will tell you why Reese is failing. Those teams have focused on building up the trenches. They all have great Olines and have been building their Dline as well. They all didn't have to spend 200 mil to do it either. smh.
Not sure why you think it's a stretch to think that Reese  
jcn56 : 10/24/2017 1:52 pm : link
has no authority on the coaching staff. He might have input - that's about as worthless as the dreaded corporate dotted line.

This article and Mara's statements is from right after Coughlin's resignation, where Mara made it clear that fixing personnel was entirely on Reese. The implication there to me wasn't that he's responsible for the whole show, but that going forward now he was entirely responsible, almost as if to imply that wasn't the case before. Reese survived the ax that time, and you have to wonder why if he were entirely responsible for the talent level on the roster.

EA's book made it clear that there were a couple of times he disagreed with the direction ownership was going as far as a coach (he wanted to retain Fox and dismiss Fassel, and he wanted Saban over TC), but was overruled.
Aaron Rodgers made everyone around him  
idiotsavant : 10/24/2017 2:09 pm : link
look much better, including Ben Macadoo.

Meanwhile, Shanny left Atlanta, and they suck moose balls now.

But its still both Reese and Macadoo, truly.
I don't disagree with the OP, except for the fact that you can't  
Mark C : 10/24/2017 2:19 pm : link
hold Reese blameless for the hiring of the head coach in the first place.

The entire offseason was focused on improving the offensive output, and it's done nothing but go backwards. The offense is filled with high-end skill players, none of whom ever seem to touch the ball with anything resembling consistency. That's on the coach and the quarterback, and while Eli's skills have clearly diminished, the failure to make any adjustments on an offense that truly plays to his weaknesses is a fireable offense.

What pisses me off more than anything is the idea that the front office is going to try to tell us that Parcells went 3-11 or something in his first season, so give McAdoo another chance. Aside from wins and losses, this situation bears no resemblance to the early Parcells era. Those teams did not have enough talent to win; when they got talent, they won. This team has gotten major infusions of talent, was picked as a Super Bowl contender even, yet not one thing about this offense has improved since Coughlin was fired.

I supported the Coughlin firing because it became clear to me that his stubbornness, his fear of putting young talent on the field and slowness to make obviously necessary changes was holding back this team. How is it possible that Reese could then go and hire a coach who is even more stubborn, even more reluctant to change anything?

In the final analysis, this coach is simply not growing into the job, at all, and he needs to be fired, this week.

I'm on the fence with regard to firing Reese, only because I'm not confident that he could be replaced with someone better. As for the head coach, I could make a list of a dozen who could replace him tomorrow.




Reese  
Giantslifer : 10/24/2017 2:25 pm : link
In hindsight, always correct, Reese made some bad draft picks.
Years ago I said there was a major internal problem with Giants, no one wanted to stay.My thought was Coughlin & co had outgrown their usefulness, they stayed for 2-3more years.Even when Coughlin was let go, almost all his staff stayed.

Unfortunately, in those years Eli stagnated to the point where he is now almost completely useless. In the Dallas game he looked like he had never seen a football in his life.All players have a shelf life, Eli is way past due.
Historically, Giants have held on to players past their prime. It is time to let Eli go .
Not sure if MacMagoo is a good coach or not. I thought Eli was getting the quick release concept etc.. Still holds on too long, fumbles too often and makes consistently bad decisions.
It is the to start gent & Webb, see what they have.
Make intelligent long term decisions
Reese and Eli have to go
I said this last year  
idiotsavant : 10/24/2017 2:36 pm : link
whereas I was not at all in love with Macadoos schematics, in particular the passive way he incorporates the OL, given this roster especially:

You should at least go for a 'big assed slobbery, leagues best G-C-G combination' to bolster what Macadoo apparently was intent on doing. Which was exactly what I suggested here:

Failing that;

- the very next day after the draft, I said,

'' ok, didn't do that, we ought to at least try what Shanny had been doing at Atlanta, outside zone running and play action, -hit em instantly at the snap to at least give our OL something to bite into- which would help the OL develop, and produce some pay action.''

The thing is, we did -neither-

Not the rational draft, nor adjusting the schematics to suit what we had on roster.

Game 1. Jerry and Mac on sideline laughing and jawing...they had not a clue.

Then - Preseason, Becks gets injured:

When you fail to have a line, you must reduce the route tree. When you reduce the route tree, WRs get hammered.

This goes back to the days of Kurt Warner people.

The line gets weak, ergo you have to reduce the length or variety of pass routes, WRs get injured - as a result, as dbacks are not stupid, they know what your doing, and the sit back and hammer you.

Said it then and saying it now.
RE: That quote is supposed to prove he was all-in on McAdoo?  
Dan in the Springs : 10/24/2017 2:42 pm : link
In comment 13663258 jcn56 said:
Quote:
When it doesn't even mention the coaches or a coaching decision? Wasn't that before McAdoo was even hired?


When he says it's up to him to get it fixed, and the first thing the org does is hire a new head coach, and the onus was clearly put on Reese to improve the record, it follows that Reese should have spoken up loudly against McAdoo from the start.

I'm not saying that Reese was pushing McAdoo against the owners wishes, I'm saying that it is very unlikely that Reese was against the McAdoo hire. If McAdoo was forced on Reese against his will then Reese was an idiot to stay with the org.
RE: RE: That quote is supposed to prove he was all-in on McAdoo?  
jcn56 : 10/24/2017 2:47 pm : link
In comment 13663386 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
In comment 13663258 jcn56 said:


Quote:


When it doesn't even mention the coaches or a coaching decision? Wasn't that before McAdoo was even hired?



When he says it's up to him to get it fixed, and the first thing the org does is hire a new head coach, and the onus was clearly put on Reese to improve the record, it follows that Reese should have spoken up loudly against McAdoo from the start.

I'm not saying that Reese was pushing McAdoo against the owners wishes, I'm saying that it is very unlikely that Reese was against the McAdoo hire. If McAdoo was forced on Reese against his will then Reese was an idiot to stay with the org.


Let me see if I understand what you're trying to say...

If I get the GM job with the Giants, and they define my role as being responsible for all player personnel, draft or pro, but tell me that ownership retains the right to manage the coaching staff - I should tell them to take a walk?

We have never seen it written anywhere - and we've seen direct evidence to the contrary in EA's books - that says the GM of the Giants manages the coaching staff.

Now, if I have some input as GM, and I'm on thin ice - am I really putting up opposition to a guy that the ownership likes for the HC position?

One thing is for sure - there's been a pretty obvious disconnect between the FO and coaching staff for awhile. Players are signed/drafted, and they aren't used. Do you think that would be the case if McAdoo reported to Reese?
Probably fair to comment  
idiotsavant : 10/24/2017 2:49 pm : link
that frustration may arise from the sentiment that most -fans- have had to perform in jobs where lack of results will get them fired.

So, when you have a GM who can basically talk his way out of anything, it frustrates people.

Its a double standard, people fight, crawl in basements to install plumbing, eat miles of shit in sales jobs to get commissions, wake up a 4am to commute to some dunb ass crap, all the while knowing that they might get fired.

They want the game to be crazy fun on TV. A change, a break.

Then Teflon Jerry waltzes out and talks a mile of bullshit and nothing changes.
I think there is enough blame to go around  
Beer Man : 10/24/2017 2:53 pm : link
and no one on the team or in the organization has not had a hand in the failure. But in terms of Reese and Mac, I think you can split the blame down the middle.

- Reese for his neglect, and thinking he could man certain positions adequately with low round draft picks and FAs (notably - OL, RB,TE, Safety,LB). For some of these you can provide examples where he has spent high round picks to replenish (e.g., OL, TE, SS), but it didn't occur until the positions were already decimated and he had no choice.

- Mac for his stubbornness, refusal to change his system to take advantage of the players he has, and refusal to put players in the best position to be successful.
consider this:  
idiotsavant : 10/24/2017 3:01 pm : link
Had we built the O line greatly. We may not have Brandon Marshal (two sad catches on season) or EE,

- but ODB probably would not be injured -

As I said on the other thread, when a line cannot pass or run block,

you have to reduce the route tree, due to time factor, and QB pressure,

when you reduce the route tree, Dbacks are not stupid, they sit back and hammer the WRs.

So, this team ...but with a great line, an uninjured ODB, a good run game, no EE or Marshal.

Trade? Damn right you take that trade.
RE: RE: RE: That quote is supposed to prove he was all-in on McAdoo?  
Dan in the Springs : 10/24/2017 3:15 pm : link
In comment 13663399 jcn56 said:
Quote:

Let me see if I understand what you're trying to say...

If I get the GM job with the Giants, and they define my role as being responsible for all player personnel, draft or pro, but tell me that ownership retains the right to manage the coaching staff - I should tell them to take a walk?


If you in any job, ever, have been told that wins and losses are you, and the most critical hire that exists you are against but they force it on you, then yes, you should walk. Absolutely. Otherwise you are tying your fortunes to someone you don't believe in.

Quote:

We have never seen it written anywhere - and we've seen direct evidence to the contrary in EA's books - that says the GM of the Giants manages the coaching staff.

True, but how many times have we seen the GM put on notice the way that Reese was prior to the McAdoo hiring?

Quote:

Now, if I have some input as GM, and I'm on thin ice - am I really putting up opposition to a guy that the ownership likes for the HC position?

If the most important thing to you is holding on to your job for a year or two, then the best bet is to shut up and make owners happy. If you're trying to develop your career for the long term, you do not accept those terms from the owners without being very vocal in opposition.

Quote:

One thing is for sure - there's been a pretty obvious disconnect between the FO and coaching staff for awhile. Players are signed/drafted, and they aren't used. Do you think that would be the case if McAdoo reported to Reese?


I don't know how it works within the Giants organization, I can only guess. It seems to me that they always put forward a united face, but my experience is that rarely are all sides in agreement when there is much complexity. I only know that if I'm put on notice by my boss for a specific outcome, I am going to definitely expect my voice to be considered/heard when it comes to the most important decision affecting that outcome. If not, then I'll get what I deserve.

If McAdoo was truly forced on Reese against his will and he simply went along with it, he will have enjoyed a couple years of salary and now face the termination he deserves. Then again, maybe Reese is smarter than I am and has put himself in a position where again the coach can take the fall for the losing record.

I don't really know.
I think some of your career guidance would be valid *if*  
jcn56 : 10/24/2017 3:22 pm : link
you were talking about a position that could be readily had at another organization.

If I'm told I'm responsible for X-Y-Z at my current company, but Y isn't under my control, then sure, I'll walk and find someplace that will either not hold me accountable for Y or will give me control over it as well.

There are only 32 GM jobs in the NFL. They are extremely scarce, and the likelihood that you'd engage in a power play with your boss with the thinking being that you could get another job elsewhere is realistically slim to none.

Besides - Reese knows he's not being evaluated by the fans or the press, it's ownership. So - if behind the scenes he's told his bosses 'look, I don't know about this guy' - come evaluation time, if it's apparent that coaching was part of the downfall, that's going to be taken into consideration. A unified front is needed for the fans, the media and the players - but what happens behind closed doors, while a mystery to us is pretty well known by those in charge.
You could be right...  
Dan in the Springs : 10/24/2017 6:33 pm : link
and I get that the jobs are more scarce in the NFL. Jerry Reese has to do what is best for him, and perhaps that's what happened. I doubt that he was against the McAdoo hiring, but perhaps he was and perhaps he advocated against it and perhaps he was overruled.

I'm a guy who has walked away from certain opportunities because I didn't like/trust/respect the people and had lost confidence in the organization only to switch careers altogether, but I realize that most people (perhaps Reese as well) don't act that way.
RE: Just take a good look at the other  
compton : 10/24/2017 6:56 pm : link
In comment 13663268 prdave73 said:
Quote:
NFC east teams roster and that will tell you why Reese is failing. Those teams have focused on building up the trenches. They all have great Olines and have been building their Dline as well. They all didn't have to spend 200 mil to do it either. smh.


And the Giants haven't been building up their defensive line? That's news.
RE: RE: That quote is supposed to prove he was all-in on McAdoo?  
compton : 10/24/2017 7:12 pm : link
In comment 13663386 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
In comment 13663258 jcn56 said:


Quote:


When it doesn't even mention the coaches or a coaching decision? Wasn't that before McAdoo was even hired?



When he says it's up to him to get it fixed, and the first thing the org does is hire a new head coach, and the onus was clearly put on Reese to improve the record, it follows that Reese should have spoken up loudly against McAdoo from the start.

I'm not saying that Reese was pushing McAdoo against the owners wishes, I'm saying that it is very unlikely that Reese was against the McAdoo hire. If McAdoo was forced on Reese against his will then Reese was an idiot to stay with the org.


Why would he be a fool to stay if Mac was forced on him? Its not like general manager jobs grow on trees and he has the pick of the litter. He is not going to quit over every disagreement with ownership. EA didn't quit when Coughlin was forced on him. He may not have wanted Mac but it was not a deal breaker for him. Just like Coughlin was not a deal breaker for EA.
RE: RE: RE: That quote is supposed to prove he was all-in on McAdoo?  
Dan in the Springs : 10/24/2017 7:24 pm : link
In comment 13663840 compton said:
Quote:
EA didn't quit when Coughlin was forced on him. He may not have wanted Mac but it was not a deal breaker for him. Just like Coughlin was not a deal breaker for EA.


I don't think the EA comparison is valid because EA wasn't publicly put on notice in the way that Reese was. There's a difference when the owner stands up and says - it's on you now. At least in my opinion.

I can totally buy that Reese didn't have much say, or that he would have very possibly went a different direction if left completely up to him. I find it hard to believe that he was completely against the McAdoo hiring though, or that if he truly was, that he was willing to communicate that to ownership. If that was due to the limited GM opportunities or not, I don't think we'll be reading how he stood firm against the McAdoo hiring any time soon.
If he was opposed to them hiring McAdoo, and Mara decided  
jcn56 : 10/24/2017 7:47 pm : link
to do it anyway - do you think we'd hear about it?

Short of saying 'take this job and shove it' - if Reese wasn't happy with McAdoo, his only recourse is to let his boss know. If Mara decides to proceed, then it's known between the two of them, and if the coaching somehow compromises the team's ability to win, Mara knows where Reese stood on record.

We'd never know any of it, barring some sort of leak or book after the fact, just like with EA.
McAdoo  
Marty866b : 10/24/2017 9:22 pm : link
is worse as a head coach then Reese is as a GM and Reese has been awful the last 6 years. Sound thinking would be to get rid of both.
RE: If he was opposed to them hiring McAdoo, and Mara decided  
Dan in the Springs : 10/24/2017 9:23 pm : link
In comment 13663866 jcn56 said:
Quote:
to do it anyway - do you think we'd hear about it?

Short of saying 'take this job and shove it' - if Reese wasn't happy with McAdoo, his only recourse is to let his boss know. If Mara decides to proceed, then it's known between the two of them, and if the coaching somehow compromises the team's ability to win, Mara knows where Reese stood on record.

We'd never know any of it, barring some sort of leak or book after the fact, just like with EA.


I agree entirely - pure speculation. Just think about Mara though - what kind of manager would do that to his employee? How incompetent would he have to be? If he wants to put the onus on the GM to turn the ship around, but insists on overriding the most critical decision that GM can make, he could never hold the GM accountable later for it.

This is why I don't see that scenario playing out that way. I think Mara saying that it's on Reese now is because he wanted to make it clear that there was nobody left to blame - no Coughlin, nobody. Kind of defeats that purpose if he then won't let him have any input on the decision.

Realistically I think McAdoo was favored by the owners and Reese didn't oppose it, even if he might have had his own preference of a first choice. I think he probably went with the owners' wishes for reasons you've stated.
I've always had some questions about the Giants org structure  
jcn56 : 10/24/2017 10:28 pm : link
I agree that ideally senior management wouldn't do that to a subordinate - hold them responsible for operations not under their control. But it gets worse than that.

Chris Mara is a VP of Player Personnel. Now - he gets batted around like a pinata, and for all I know the title is just there to help him pick up women in bars. But if he wields any actual power within the org - imagine being Reese and having the brother of the owner working under you and influencing both your day to day as well as your boss' opinions for whenever there's a tiebreaker or senior management signoff needed.

That's why I laugh when people try to definitively assign blame within the Giants - we don't know nearly enough about how much responsibility anyone there has for the strategic decisions made there over the years that have backfired. We know who is accountable, and at the end of the day you can't delegate accountability, but who's responsible is an entirely different ball of wax.
if the owners fire anyone at the end  
Jersey55 : 10/25/2017 11:08 am : link
of this season it has to be both Reese and Mac, I doubt they would make the same mistake they made when they fired TC when it was obvious that Reese should have e been fired too......
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