Eli's cap number this year is $19,700,000
Tom Brady's cap number this year $14,000,000
Carson Wentz cap number this year $6,062,804
Eli's cap number has been in the top 10 for years .. that means limited money elsewhere Like money to shore up the OL
I am sure Reese would have loved 5.7 million this year to add a decent Offensive lineman
Just saying that maybe at 37, Eli might need to rethink his very large salary
Flawed way of thinking.
2018: $17M
2019: $19.5M
2020: $19.5M
JPP
2018: $17.5M
2019: $19.5M
2020: $17.5M
Then add Odell Beckham's upcoming contract, which figures to have cap numbers in the same neighborhood.
2017: $15.7M
2018: $25M
2019: $22.5M
2020: 21.5M
Yet you look at their OL and signing guys like Kelechi Osemele.
And like others said, blowing drafts forcing the 'need' to spend near $200M defensively is another flaw in this argument.
No, his contract didn't prevent them from their spending spree two offseasons ago but it's still burying your head in the sand to deny that his cap value does impact the team overall roster. So many here wanted (and still want) the Giants to give Eli one last chance to make a run at another ring - would Eli pitch in to get himself some OL help? Would he take a pay cut with the condition that it has to go to the OL?
I'm not actually advocating for him to do that - mostly because I don't believe it's my place or anyone else's (besides their boss) to tell someone to take a paycut. But it is a zero sum game in the salary cap world, so the hypothetical is at least worth the question. As the OP points out, the Patriots have an almost $6MM salary cap advantage over the Giants just on starting QBs alone.
Joe Flacco $24,550,000
Carson Palmer $24,125,000
Kirk Cousins $23,943,600
Matt Ryan $23,750,000
Aaron Rodgers $20,300,000
Ryan Tannehill $20,300,000
Cam Newton $20,166,000
Eli Manning $19,700,000
these are not too far behind:
Andrew Luck $19,400,000
Drew Brees $19,000,000
Russell Wilson $18,800,000
Ben Roethlisberger $18,200,000
Philip Rivers $18,000,000
Sam Bradford $18,000,000
Eli's salary is definitely not the issue
During Eli's 14 seasons, he has been an no-doubt-about-it top-5 performer in his position in at most two: 2011, and maybe another year that you want to throw in.
Now, of course I love the two Super Bowl trophies he help bring us. But would it make sense if Jim Plunkett (a two-time SB winner) had collected more overall NFL money in the history of the sport than all but one of his peers in 1986, when he retired? Especially if that era also had a salary-cap?
Someone here once said it matter-of-factly: In pro football, Eli Manning has never done anything that did not put his own interest first and foremost, starting from forcing a trade on draft day at the very beginning. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, but then let's not state, or even imply, otherwise.
JPP's might be the most brutal. Eli comes with the territory of being a 2 time SB winning franchise QB. Vernon's contract and whether that is fulfilled is still up in the air IMO
Great line in place, both with signees and draft picks.
Guess which Reese blunders?
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contracts are brutal.
JPP's might be the most brutal. Eli comes with the territory of being a 2 time SB winning franchise QB. Vernon's contract and whether that is fulfilled is still up in the air IMO
True, but Eli is much older than the likes of JPP and Vernon and most QBs pushing 40 don't age well..
All 3 contracts are like anchors.
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In comment 13665268 Dave in Hoboken said:
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contracts are brutal.
JPP's might be the most brutal. Eli comes with the territory of being a 2 time SB winning franchise QB. Vernon's contract and whether that is fulfilled is still up in the air IMO
True, but Eli is much older than the likes of JPP and Vernon and most QBs pushing 40 don't age well..
All 3 contracts are like anchors.
Eli's contract is only an anchor for 2018. After 2018 the dead money assuming the team has a drafted replacement isn't a huge issue since there's only 1 year left on the deal.
Vernon to me is wait and see, although IMO the last year will be painful. JPP's is going to be the worst since he's had numerous injuries already in his career and has a back that flares up quite a bit
It's the GM's fault because the resources he's spending on the OL are mostly not panning out.
Nothing says you need to spend 200 million dollars to have a strong offensive line.
Scout better, draft better, and suddenly things look a lot different.
It's actually one of the best things Reese has done.
The failure is the far more finite resources dumped into the offensive line in draft picks.
Two 1's and a 2 should net an average line. That's failure.
In real time, nobody complained when OL players cast off from other teams were claimed by other teams. People seemed to realize that signing new players just for the sake of having new players wasn't going to make us later.
Months later, revisionist historians use the general lack of activity to accuse Reese of ignoring the OL.
You could make the case that the defense was a bigger problem than the offense and specifically, the OL.
Eli's enormous salary hasn't helped matters. You have to pay him but the Giants along with some of the other teams with highly priced qbs don't have the financial wiggle room that other teams have. Eli isn't good enough to carry a chicken shit team to elevated heights. And here we are.
Yeah, $30 million with only two starting and much maligned offensive lineman under contract in Flowers and Jerry and OBJ and Collins in the final years of their rookie contracts. On top of that, only one starting and often injured LB in Goodson under contract. This team is not in good cap shape looking forward.
Sure, they can cut DRC, Marshall and Harris, but you still have to replace them with limited resources and only 6 draft picks. The Vernon and JPP contracts look terrible, and fortunately there are outs in a couple years.
But this is a business, this isn't about Eli's legacy or achievements. He has been a bottom tier QB since the start of 2016. His contract is handcuffing this team. Releasing him this off-season not only frees up $10 million this off-season, it completely opens up the cap the following year.
With a top 5 pick looming, it is time to move on. It will be an extremely sad day when it comes, but it is time.
The difference between Eli and Brady’s cap hit is around 5 million. Assuming the Giants were up against the cap (they weren’t) what does 5 mil buy in FA? Another Vereen or Casillas?
Drafting is the issue, particularly after round 2.
I've said it before, if over the past 5 years, there was a OL that could help keep him upright and effective, he would restructure, IMO.
he also asked the Patriots to buy millions of dollars worth of the sink water called "TB12"...so Brady pockets extra cash under the table, outside of the salary cap and the league doesn't bat an eye
It is pretty stupid, but not in the top 5...
Starting NFL QBs get big money. Just the way it is. His contract is where it should be.
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Brady went to management and said pay me less to get good players
The difference between Eli and Brady’s cap hit is around 5 million. Assuming the Giants were up against the cap (they weren’t) what does 5 mil buy in FA? Another Vereen or Casillas?
Drafting is the issue, particularly after round 2.
You sir, are correct! Drafting is and has been the problem for years now. It is a difficult job with debatable payoff every year. Yet, Steelers, Girlboys, Packers and Pats have done a pretty good job of it over the past decade.
We've had picks much higher than all these teams even before Reese and have managed to select some really expensive and under preforming "talent".
I'm constantly wondering if it's been a coaching problem alone or is the front office that incompetent?
Here's a sampling of the draft prowess; Giants pick then players that passed on:
(Not all of them have been superstars, but they were far better than G-Men's earlier picks)
2015- #9 Ereck Flowers- Todd Gurly, Bud Dupree, Stefan Diggs, Chad Johnson,
Donavan Smith, Bud Dupree, Stephone Anthony, David Johnson, Eric Kendricks, Marcus Peters, Ronald Darby, Tyler Lockett, Karlos Williams, Jeremy Langford
2014-#12- Odell Beckham
2013- #19- Pugh- Deandre Hopkins, Travis Fredrick
Later rounds- LaVeon Bell, Jon Bostic, Montee Ball, Eddie Lacy, DJ Swearinger, Giovani Bernard, Travis Kelce, Keenan Allen
2012- #32 - David Wilson- so 2nd round- Bobby Wagner, Mike Adams
Later rounds- Russell Wilson, Bernard Pierce, Nick Foles, TY Hilton, Robbert Turbin
2011- #19- Is there a better 1st rounder after Amukamara, nobody stands out
Later rounds- Shane Vereen, Torrey Smith, Randall Cobb
2010- #15- JPP- Mike Iupati, Maurkice Pouncey, Demarius Thomas, Bryan Bulaga, Dez Bryant
Later rounds- Demarco Murray, Cecil Shorts, Kendall Hunter, Julius Thomas
2009- #29-Is there a better 1st rounder after Nicks, nobody stands out
Later rounds- LaSewan McCoy, Mike Wallace, Jared Cook
2008-#31- Kenny Phillips, so second round- Brandon Flowers, Jordy Nelson, Matt Forte, Desean Jackson, Ray Rice, Martellus Bennett
Later rounds- Jamaal Charles, Earl Bennett, Dan Conner, Antwaun Molden, Jermichael Finley, Cliff Avril
2007- #20- Aaron Ross- Anthony Spencer, Dwayne Bowe, Jon Beason, Joe Staley, Greg Olsen
Later rounds- Paul Posluszny
2006- #32- Mathias Kiwanuka- so into the 2nd round- Roman Harper, Greg Jennings, Maurice Jones-Drew
Later rounds- Owen Daniels, Elvis Dumervil, Willie Colon
I think it was more, pay me less as long as you keep paying money to my shady side business.
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/report-patriots-pay-a-brady-owned-company-run-by-suspect-partner/ - ( New Window )
I'm not sure that's accurate. If so, someone should have told Harris and Thomas before they took straight salary pay cuts this past year.
As far as I know, non-guaranteed salary can be simply reduced. Both parties have to agree to it of course, which is what begs the hypothetical questions I posed above - would Eli agree to it? The Giants don't have a ton of leverage, and I can't imagine they'd try to play hardball even once the cap math flips slightly in their favor, so it would purely have to be an appeal to Eli's desire for one more run at a ring.
If they went to him with a plan to drastically improve the OL for next year (and imagine in this hypothetical that the plan is absolutely guaranteed to work... humor me) but needed him to kick in say $4MM in the form of a pay cut, does anyone think he does it?
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Brady went to management and said pay me less to get good players
The difference between Eli and Brady’s cap hit is around 5 million. Assuming the Giants were up against the cap (they weren’t) what does 5 mil buy in FA? Another Vereen or Casillas?
Drafting is the issue, particularly after round 2.
It doesn't necessarily have to represent a single player - it could also be the difference between players instead. Like, how about Kevin Zeitler instead of John Jerry this past offseason?
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In comment 13665231 giantfan2000 said:
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Brady went to management and said pay me less to get good players
The difference between Eli and Brady’s cap hit is around 5 million. Assuming the Giants were up against the cap (they weren’t) what does 5 mil buy in FA? Another Vereen or Casillas?
Drafting is the issue, particularly after round 2.
It doesn't necessarily have to represent a single player - it could also be the difference between players instead. Like, how about Kevin Zeitler instead of John Jerry this past offseason?
Zeitler got 5/60. Jerry got 3/10.
DING DING DING.
the offseason signed jack rabbit (stud) --- snacks (stud) and Vernon (stud)
what TERRIBLE moves.
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last offseason?
You could make the case that the defense was a bigger problem than the offense and specifically, the OL.
Eli's enormous salary hasn't helped matters. You have to pay him but the Giants along with some of the other teams with highly priced qbs don't have the financial wiggle room that other teams have. Eli isn't good enough to carry a chicken shit team to elevated heights. And here we are.
That wasn't the point. The point was, they had $200 million to spend despite Eli's "enormous" (9th most expensive as far as Quarterback salaries go in the NFL) salary.
The op is trying to contend that Eli's salary is holding the team back, which it clearly is not, despite what many want to believe. The Giants are not cap strapped.
And let's not forget the 18 million contract Jerry handed out to a hybrid TE/FB (Jerry doth love his tweeners and hybrids) who can be covered by his grandmother and 11 million he handed out to Marshall, who can't outrun his grandmother. But no dough for an o-lineman?
No, it's not Eli. Jerry Reese has been a bad GM since at least 2011.
It's out of control stupidity at this point.
See additional money he makes from them through payments to his company...
the offseason signed jack rabbit (stud) --- snacks (stud) and Vernon (stud)
what TERRIBLE moves.
And let's not forget the 18 million contract Jerry handed out to a hybrid TE/FB (Jerry doth love his tweeners and hybrids) who can be covered by his grandmother and 11 million he handed out to Marshall, who can't outrun his grandmother. But no dough for an o-lineman?
No, it's not Eli. Jerry Reese has been a bad GM since at least 2011.
Everyone has to take some responsibility. If Eli is only worth 19.7M if he has a 25M OL, then is he really worth 19.7? Obviously not. Not ureasonable for Jerry to gamble on Eli and a makeshift OL; he did that and won SB42 with a former guard, David Diehl, at left tackle.
Investing in WR seemed good until you realize that Eli inaccuracies and McAdoo short routes make them more expendable than running back.
Some teams just fail for alot of reasons. This is one of them.
yes terrible job that offseason.
that is the wrong Free agency to attack my friend...
many other low hanging fruit out there than that trio
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In comment 13665352 WillVAB said:
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In comment 13665231 giantfan2000 said:
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Brady went to management and said pay me less to get good players
The difference between Eli and Brady’s cap hit is around 5 million. Assuming the Giants were up against the cap (they weren’t) what does 5 mil buy in FA? Another Vereen or Casillas?
Drafting is the issue, particularly after round 2.
It doesn't necessarily have to represent a single player - it could also be the difference between players instead. Like, how about Kevin Zeitler instead of John Jerry this past offseason?
Zeitler got 5/60. Jerry got 3/10.
Their cap hits for this season are $6.65MM apart (Jerry's hit is $1.75MM; Zeitler's is $8.4MM). Eli and Brady are $5.7MM apart in cap hits for this season. It's less than $1MM more to have Brady (or Brady's cap hit) + Kevin Zeitler than it is to have Eli (or Eli's cap hit) + John Jerry.
That being said, I'm certainly not getting rid of the best WR in football because we are paying our old, average QB like he's elite and in his prime. Either Eli takes a massive paycut or I look to move on. Love the guy, appreciate all he's done, I would rather he takes a paycut and sticks around, but if he's unwilling.....time to move on.
yes terrible job that offseason.
that is the wrong Free agency to attack my friend...
many other low hanging fruit out there than that trio
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and the 3 players signed all played pro bowl/all pro caliber football.
yes terrible job that offseason.
that is the wrong Free agency to attack my friend...
many other low hanging fruit out there than that trio
The point was it does not take a great deal ofacumen on the GM's part when the owner says "here's the checkbook, go get those guys" and your offer blows all competitors out and makes all three of the top free agents the top 10 best paid players at their positions. So, no, I don't think Jerry gets a whole lot of credit for that.
Revisionist history. This wasn't the prevailing thought at the time and you know it. Snacks and Jenkins were not considered the best FA available, our GM made a good decision to target those guys.
The biggest myth from last year was that spending $200M was assured to deliver returns. It rarely has the success we saw.
Shit on reese for a lot of things, his signings in 2016 shouldn't be one of those things, in fact, it was one of the most impressive FA hauls since free agency started.
That's seven years, and he's repeatedly whiffed both through free agency (Baas, Schwartz, Jerry) and the draft (2 1sts and a 2nd, not to mention late round picks).
It's not Gilbride's fault, it's not Coughlin's fault, it's not Eli's fault....
It's Jerry Reese's fault. Period.
Link - ( New Window )
My opinion has been, and will continue to be, that when the O-line went sour, the whole team followed suit and has never recovered.
In the business sense, what resulted in what should have been Eli Manning's prime years is criminal.
I'm tired of waiting for a competent O-line when I've seen teams turn it around in much less time. 7 years and counting is too long.
Besides ruining the last 5 years, and counting, of Eli Manning's career, we also can't run the ball.
Can't protect your quarterback, can't run the ball, can't win.
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In comment 13665231 giantfan2000 said:
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Brady went to management and said pay me less to get good players
The difference between Eli and Brady’s cap hit is around 5 million. Assuming the Giants were up against the cap (they weren’t) what does 5 mil buy in FA? Another Vereen or Casillas?
Drafting is the issue, particularly after round 2.
You sir, are correct! Drafting is and has been the problem for years now. It is a difficult job with debatable payoff every year. Yet, Steelers, Girlboys, Packers and Pats have done a pretty good job of it over the past decade.
We've had picks much higher than all these teams even before Reese and have managed to select some really expensive and under preforming "talent".
I'm constantly wondering if it's been a coaching problem alone or is the front office that incompetent?
Here's a sampling of the draft prowess; Giants pick then players that passed on:
(Not all of them have been superstars, but they were far better than G-Men's earlier picks)
2015- #9 Ereck Flowers- Todd Gurly, Bud Dupree, Stefan Diggs, Chad Johnson,
Donavan Smith, Bud Dupree, Stephone Anthony, David Johnson, Eric Kendricks, Marcus Peters, Ronald Darby, Tyler Lockett, Karlos Williams, Jeremy Langford
2014-#12- Odell Beckham
2013- #19- Pugh- Deandre Hopkins, Travis Fredrick
Later rounds- LaVeon Bell, Jon Bostic, Montee Ball, Eddie Lacy, DJ Swearinger, Giovani Bernard, Travis Kelce, Keenan Allen
2012- #32 - David Wilson- so 2nd round- Bobby Wagner, Mike Adams
Later rounds- Russell Wilson, Bernard Pierce, Nick Foles, TY Hilton, Robbert Turbin
2011- #19- Is there a better 1st rounder after Amukamara, nobody stands out
Later rounds- Shane Vereen, Torrey Smith, Randall Cobb
2010- #15- JPP- Mike Iupati, Maurkice Pouncey, Demarius Thomas, Bryan Bulaga, Dez Bryant
Later rounds- Demarco Murray, Cecil Shorts, Kendall Hunter, Julius Thomas
2009- #29-Is there a better 1st rounder after Nicks, nobody stands out
Later rounds- LaSewan McCoy, Mike Wallace, Jared Cook
2008-#31- Kenny Phillips, so second round- Brandon Flowers, Jordy Nelson, Matt Forte, Desean Jackson, Ray Rice, Martellus Bennett
Later rounds- Jamaal Charles, Earl Bennett, Dan Conner, Antwaun Molden, Jermichael Finley, Cliff Avril
2007- #20- Aaron Ross- Anthony Spencer, Dwayne Bowe, Jon Beason, Joe Staley, Greg Olsen
Later rounds- Paul Posluszny
2006- #32- Mathias Kiwanuka- so into the 2nd round- Roman Harper, Greg Jennings, Maurice Jones-Drew
Later rounds- Owen Daniels, Elvis Dumervil, Willie Colon
Interesting list; but hindsight is 20-20. (Texas sharpshooting).
A similar list of all the DUDS drafted PRIOR to the NYG would also be fun.
It's the GM's fault because the resources he's spending on the OL are mostly not panning out.
Nothing says you need to spend 200 million dollars to have a strong offensive line.
Scout better, draft better, and suddenly things look a lot different.
Yep.. Eli isn't costing us any more than average franchise QB.. GM spends as much if not more on drafting receivers as he does on OL and he sucks at drafting OL on top of that.. None of that makes sense when OL is far more important Receivers.. He also spends FA money to bring in guys who good teams find for vet min or 5th round of the draft.. Guys like Harris, SV and even someone like Ellison .. He repeatedly has failed in drafting DE except for JPP way back when. thats why we have to pay a guy shit ton of money when he has never had more than 12 sacks in a season.. Vernon is good but he is not a game changer.. and thats how we are paying him..
JR should thank his lucky stars that he has had Eli his entire career as a GM because otherwise he'd have nothing..
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In comment 13665231 giantfan2000 said:
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Brady went to management and said pay me less to get good players
The difference between Eli and Brady’s cap hit is around 5 million. Assuming the Giants were up against the cap (they weren’t) what does 5 mil buy in FA? Another Vereen or Casillas?
Drafting is the issue, particularly after round 2.
You sir, are correct! Drafting is and has been the problem for years now. It is a difficult job with debatable payoff every year. Yet, Steelers, Girlboys, Packers and Pats have done a pretty good job of it over the past decade.
We've had picks much higher than all these teams even before Reese and have managed to select some really expensive and under preforming "talent".
I'm constantly wondering if it's been a coaching problem alone or is the front office that incompetent?
Here's a sampling of the draft prowess; Giants pick then players that passed on:
(Not all of them have been superstars, but they were far better than G-Men's earlier picks)
2015- #9 Ereck Flowers- Todd Gurly, Bud Dupree, Stefan Diggs, Chad Johnson,
Donavan Smith, Bud Dupree, Stephone Anthony, David Johnson, Eric Kendricks, Marcus Peters, Ronald Darby, Tyler Lockett, Karlos Williams, Jeremy Langford
2014-#12- Odell Beckham
2013- #19- Pugh- Deandre Hopkins, Travis Fredrick
Later rounds- LaVeon Bell, Jon Bostic, Montee Ball, Eddie Lacy, DJ Swearinger, Giovani Bernard, Travis Kelce, Keenan Allen
2012- #32 - David Wilson- so 2nd round- Bobby Wagner, Mike Adams
Later rounds- Russell Wilson, Bernard Pierce, Nick Foles, TY Hilton, Robbert Turbin
2011- #19- Is there a better 1st rounder after Amukamara, nobody stands out
Later rounds- Shane Vereen, Torrey Smith, Randall Cobb
2010- #15- JPP- Mike Iupati, Maurkice Pouncey, Demarius Thomas, Bryan Bulaga, Dez Bryant
Later rounds- Demarco Murray, Cecil Shorts, Kendall Hunter, Julius Thomas
2009- #29-Is there a better 1st rounder after Nicks, nobody stands out
Later rounds- LaSewan McCoy, Mike Wallace, Jared Cook
2008-#31- Kenny Phillips, so second round- Brandon Flowers, Jordy Nelson, Matt Forte, Desean Jackson, Ray Rice, Martellus Bennett
Later rounds- Jamaal Charles, Earl Bennett, Dan Conner, Antwaun Molden, Jermichael Finley, Cliff Avril
2007- #20- Aaron Ross- Anthony Spencer, Dwayne Bowe, Jon Beason, Joe Staley, Greg Olsen
Later rounds- Paul Posluszny
2006- #32- Mathias Kiwanuka- so into the 2nd round- Roman Harper, Greg Jennings, Maurice Jones-Drew
Later rounds- Owen Daniels, Elvis Dumervil, Willie Colon
What an absolutely ridiculous post. It's funny as hell that you spent so much time on such a piece of shit argument. You realize that we can make these same lists for EVERY SINGLE DRAFT PICK of all time, from every team?
How great is it that we all get to sit back and cherry pick all of the players that turned out better than the the ones the Giants took. Now, pull your head out of the sand, continue to do your research and come back to us after you've done this same project with every other team. I think you'll be shocked at your findings...
Roster depth is absolutely crucial. It's going to be tough to maintain that when we are paying Vernon, JPP, and Beckham 30% of our salary cap.
Brady's an even dumber comparison, with his wife worth half a billion dollars and his shady off-books dealings with the team.
Flacco ($24.5 million), Big Ben ($18.2 million), these seem like more apt comparisons.
It doesn't change the fact that they have nearly a $6MM headstart on the Giants under the cap. It's not like the Giants have paid Eli minimum wage throughout his career. And it's not like he didn't come from a family with money. Does he have Giselle's money coming in on the side? No. But it's not crazy to suggest he could take a cut to make one last shot at a ring. He's on pace to earn more money than any player in NFL history - the only one ahead of him is his very own brother.
Roster depth is absolutely crucial. It's going to be tough to maintain that when we are paying Vernon, JPP, and Beckham 30% of our salary cap.
It's also a league of playmakers. Either one without the other is vulnerable. If the Giants built a roster as you wished with all depth and no playmakers, they'd be an impenetrable wall of suck. But you aren't wrong about depth in general. Rosters that get too top-heavy can go sideways in a hurry. We're about to see it with the Packers, IMO.
Beyond stupid
Roster depth is absolutely crucial. It's going to be tough to maintain that when we are paying Vernon, JPP, and Beckham 30% of our salary cap.
It’s not tough if you draft well.
There are playmakers making peanuts all over the NFL. How much is Tyreek Hill making? Nelson Agoholor? Will Fuller? Brandin Cooks? Jerrick McKinnon?
Shit look at our roster. How much is Beckham making? Engram? Shepard?
You can have great playmakers that aren't making big money. They're all over the league.
There are playmakers making peanuts all over the NFL. How much is Tyreek Hill making? Nelson Agoholor? Will Fuller? Brandin Cooks? Jerrick McKinnon?
Shit look at our roster. How much is Beckham making? Engram? Shepard?
You can have great playmakers that aren't making big money. They're all over the league.
It sounds more like what you actually want is playmakers on rookie contracts.