Scary paragraph from Jordan Raanan on Giants

In comment 13671593 njm said:

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Given the success of last season that's a surprise.

Not necessarily a reflection on Spags. The line "to a lack of overall respect for McAdoo and some of his coaching staff, particularly on the defensive side of the ball" could be interpreted in a couple of ways:

1. Players lacking respect for some of the defensive coaches (which you pointed out, and I agree is somewhat surprising)

2. Or its 'defensive players' that are speaking of their lack of respect for Mac and some of his coaches (this would not be surprising given that the D has been overworked due to the lack of any consistency on from the O)

Raanan isn't real clear, so its hard to say.

fact the orchestrator of all this comes down to ownership and the GM they kept to fix the problems. Mara made a huge mistake letting Tom go and, at least, not firing Reese at the same time or keeping Tom and firing Reese. We can all see that now...and I've heard many people say that when you bring outsiders into the organization rather than having them drafted and brought up then they have no real attachment to the Giants and this is what you get as a result.

We can't let these distractions move us from the main issue...a fish stinks from its head down, not the other way around. The Giants, as an organization right now, stink from top to bottom but mainly at the top.

That is blatantly obvious.

Jump to conclusions




Irony. We all do that, he hehe

In comment 13671597 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

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"The messes keep surfacing, and they are not new. They were there last year with Josh Brown, the walkie-talkie incident, Victor Cruz’s unhappiness and the boat trip." 3 of these "messes" are pure horseshit and the fourth involves a player who is no longer in the NFL because he isn't good enough. Jordan has to do better than that. If he wants to discuss "off the field issues", DRC and Jenkins' behavior, and McAdoo's part in it, he should write 2 different articles instead of lumping it all together.

You call them horseshit but I disagree. The Boat trip was pretty telling where guys heads were at before a playoff game. On top of that they shit the bed once the game rolled around.

The other issues are more around how the team is run and it is run poorly.. Stop blaming the reporters for stating what the overall appearance is based on incidents just because you don't like to hear it.

In comment 13671725 That’s Gold, Jerry said:

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fact the orchestrator of all this comes down to ownership and the GM they kept to fix the problems. Mara made a huge mistake letting Tom go and, at least, not firing Reese at the same time or keeping Tom and firing Reese. We can all see that now...and I've heard many people say that when you bring outsiders into the organization rather than having them drafted and brought up then they have no real attachment to the Giants and this is what you get as a result. We can't let these distractions move us from the main issue...a fish stinks from its head down, not the other way around. The Giants, as an organization right now, stink from top to bottom but mainly at the top. That is blatantly obvious.

Although you don't want to build your team through FA, you can certainly fill in the holes with it. I think it comes down to the player's character more than anything. We've had some good FAs that helped the team win two SBs, but we also have seen some selfish pre-Madonnas that have/are hurt the team. The Pats are a good example of a team that has successfully used FAs to supplement over their dynasty.

The entire thing rots.

Perhaps he could clarify if he posts here but from my seat he's talking about the D looking at O. Spags has credibility, McAdoo doesn't.

If you recall, real quiet they went through something like this last year during the offensive string of futility.

I don't think it takes much discussion: Everyone can see McAdoo, Sullivan & Co. are in over their head. It's sad that from a decision-making perspective we allowed this to be our offense. I'm talking scheme/coaching.

I don't think Reese will get fired for 1 simple reason: none of this was his decision. Mara hired McAdoo!

probably since 2012 or earlier, regardless of whom the head coach was.

has been the hotbead of insubordination. I wonder if there is a problem with the CB coach Tim Walton. He came over in 2015 where as Merritt, the Safety coach has been with the team for a while.

the 2nd half of Eli's prime. Unless, according to some, Reese has no say in picking the players either, right?

Jerry Reese, the GM, according to some on BBI, who has literally no say in picking a new HC, players, or anything, really.

Pretty funny.

In comment 13671734 jvm52106 said:

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You call them horseshit but I disagree. The Boat trip was pretty telling where guys heads were at before a playoff game. On top of that they shit the bed once the game rolled around. The other issues are more around how the team is run and it is run poorly.. Stop blaming the reporters for stating what the overall appearance is based on incidents just because you don't like to hear it.

What does the walkie-talkie incident have to do with anything? That is literally the definition of a non-issue. I'm fairly certain the only reason the Giants got more than a nominal fine was the league wanted to seem "fair" about doling out punishment. That didn't sully the organization or even the head coach in any way. Victor Cruz being unhappy was a "mess"? Or was it simply a guy past his prime upset with his diminishing role in the offense. If that's a "mess", then there are "messes" all over the league every year. The Josh Brown ACTUAL MESS happened so far above the heads of the people mentioned in this article that it's not really fair to mention here. That deserves it's own separate article.

I don't want to litigate the boat trip again, but you can't tell grown men what to do on their off day. (Tedy Bruschi told a great story about Bill Belicheck telling players not to bring golf clubs because it was a business trip. Bruschi and Vrabel just rented clubs at the golf course before their tee time. This story involves actual champions... even the greatest coach ever can't tell championship winners what to do on their off day.) I would've made more of it, but I watched those same guys drop passes ALL SEASON LONG. Were they on boat trips every week?

It's a shitty article because Jordan lumps all sorts of stuff together without any critical thinking. The "appearance" of things should never be confused with what things actually are. This particular situation is about 2 players who're not acting like professionals.

He signed with the Rams when Spags was the head coach. Seems like another reach.

to get McAdoo out, I really do.

You could ask "how could they be that stupid?" But look at JJ. Makes $13M this year. Dumb enough to risk suspension, lose a gamecheck. Cost himself $750K by not making a phone call.

They want him gone and the defensive guys with job security are leading the charge

go back and read the Lions post game thread from last year. A lot of ‘McAdoo will be here a long time.’ Go back and read the Redskins post game from New Years Day.

Winning cures all. 1-6 and these same players are all now cancers.

In comment 13671756 JonC said:

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probably since 2012 or earlier, regardless of whom the head coach was.

Reese?

I am not defending this cast of characters... they are a mess. But them being a mess doesn't suddenly make TC's last 5 years here any better than they actually were.

you may recall, I wanted them all gone. I didn't target TC. I thought the overall culture was bad and we needed a fresh start; instead only one guy got jettisoned.

I had hope that McAdoo might pleasantly surprise and certainly last year was nice but I have seen enough. This is a freaking disaster - so on that we are aligned... but this idea that wanting TC gone means having to live with the mess we have now is the part that is BS.

they are independent of each other and to tie them together is nothing more than trying to defend TC and it isn't necessary, His legacy stands on its own (good and bad; mostly good).

In comment 13671774 widmerseyebrow said:

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He signed with the Rams when Spags was the head coach. Seems like another reach.

I can't verify any of that story, let alone whether that was really Kehl (although it sure sounded like it was).

The only part I can verify - he didn't sign with the Rams. He was claimed off waivers. Wasn't his choice.

Hell, read the post for yourself to see what he thought.

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Thank you. Spagz is a guy who is either really liked, or completely hated. A lot of guys loved him in NY. Some hated him. In STL, when he was the HC, he kind of took things up a notch. I wish you could understand how AWFUL our training camp was. When I told guys in WAS or KC about it, they didn't believe me. Example - he had our O line CUT BLOCK our D line in training camp. Did it all the time!!! Said - if we don't learn how to do it now, when will we? We were like - if you don't know how to do it in the Pros, you aren't going to ever learn. We put like 6 corners on IR that year. 6!!! He TOTALLY lost the locker room.

Disclosure: I've always been a fan of Spags and advocated bringing him back.
http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=522371&show_all=1#12544776 - ( New Window )

and has been for a while. Fire the GM and fire the coach and start a new. The time for half measures is over. Whether the owners recognize this or not is a different story

is revealed during times of adversity.

Compare this to the job Adam Gase has done in Miami. No they haven't been perfect, but they are 4-3 with their starting QB going down in preseason.

I have no idea how you can bring back Mcadoo or Reese after this season.

In comment 13671792 Reb8thVA said:

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and has been for a while. Fire the GM and fire the coach and start a new. The time for half measures is over. Whether the owners recognize this or not is a different story

Yes. Agree 100%. Don't get rid of Reese or McAdoo. Clean house.

for the last line in his initial post, which I've always felt was a problem here, and magnified as time went by with TC and Reese:

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PS - want to know why Seattle got so good all of a sudden? They broke from NFL tradition, and their scouts and GM went to the coaches to ask them who to draft and sign...to fit their scheme. Unlike NY, they never draft a guy who doesn't fit their scheme.

I never thought that TC or Reese were idiots or forgot how to do their jobs, but over time, it became clear they weren't on the same page. Judging by the personnel groupings and FA acquisitions on O this year, I think the problem still remains - the FO and coaching staffs aren't on the same page, and it's disruptive to both the roster and the product on the field.

Offense hasn’t scored 28 points since he’s been Head Coach. His offense is the problem with this team

In comment 13671804 TyreeHelmet said:

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Compare this to the job Adam Gase has done in Miami. No they haven't been perfect, but they are 4-3 with their starting QB going down in preseason. I have no idea how you can bring back Mcadoo or Reese after this season.

The Dolphins have lost 3 games by a combined score of 80-6. They've won all 4 toss-up games. The Giants have lost all 3 toss-up games. I wouldn't praise the job Gase has done this year, especially when he's had to deal with things like playing unproductive Jay Cutler over popular Matt Moore, throwing players under the bus, and trading one of the team's supposed stars. Heck, they have a worse point differential than the Giants with their 1 measly win.

It is painfully obvious that the whole cabal has to go. From the F.O. (including Mara's son) to the coaching staff, blow the whole damn mess up

people who want a wholesale cleaning that it is a lot easier to clean the HC and GM than the roster.

Dumping a roster means a significant rebuild time, as well as trying to figure out what to dump - and what to get in return.

And even more significantly, dumping a roster is a sure-fire way to accumulate cap costs that are dead. That's why it isn't done.

In comment 13671792 Reb8thVA said:

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and has been for a while. Fire the GM and fire the coach and start a new. The time for half measures is over. Whether the owners recognize this or not is a different story

Yes. Been saying this since 2013.

b/c at this point ownership needs to recognize what a dumpster fire the team is, and clean house. Front office, coaching staff, everyone.

No holdovers, no more keeping people around because they have been loyal to the organization.

It's a pipe dream but no more Chris Mara involved in the front office either. Hire a competent GM, let that person decide how to structure the front office and who to hire as head coach.

In comment 13671826 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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people who want a wholesale cleaning that it is a lot easier to clean the HC and GM than the roster. Dumping a roster means a significant rebuild time, as well as trying to figure out what to dump - and what to get in return. And even more significantly, dumping a roster is a sure-fire way to accumulate cap costs that are dead. That's why it isn't done.

Exactly, there is limits to what you can do in purging the roster without consequence. However, with regard to the front office and the coaching staff it seems like they are both complicit in this mess and it is indeed time to move on.

So you fire the coach or the GM

terribly worded sentence by raanan. so is it players on the defensive side of the ball unhappy with mcadoo, or defensive players unhappy with defensive coaches. some of the sloppiest writing by a beat writer i can recall reading.

There is talent on the roster. A culture change is necessary, and sometimes a new head coach can facilitate that. Coughlin did. And no, it's not a Coughlin worship post to bring that up, he actually did that. And he won over malcontents like Strahan, who was our best defensive player but unhappy.

In comment 13671841 Britt in VA said:

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There is talent on the roster. A culture change is necessary, and sometimes a new head coach can facilitate that. Coughlin did. And no, it's not a Coughlin worship post to bring that up, he actually did that. And he won over malcontents like Strahan, who was our best defensive player but unhappy.

it's worth noting that coughlin only "won over" players like strahan after he was given a directive by ownership to change his style and approach or he'd be out of a job (i.e., stop losing his shit on the sideline in embarrassing fashion, stop treating players like complete dogshit). he was also forced to lose hufnagel and lewis. i am not taking anything away from the two SB wins, but ownership had to actively manage coughlin and prompt him to change in order to be successful. that probably made mara believe he's a lot smarter than he actually is and emboldened him to keep meddling in daily operations.

In comment 13671788 Emil said:

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In comment 13671756 JonC said: Quote: probably since 2012 or earlier, regardless of whom the head coach was. Reese?

The consistent roster, drafting, and UFA failures, yes.

In the locker room, it's up to the head coach to set the tone for culture. Football teams are full of animals, a great deal of structure with a touch is required, that's why many teams aren't very good at it.

In comment 13671841 Britt in VA said:

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There is talent on the roster. A culture change is necessary, and sometimes a new head coach can facilitate that. Coughlin did. And no, it's not a Coughlin worship post to bring that up, he actually did that. And he won over malcontents like Strahan, who was our best defensive player but unhappy.

But, for some here a purge may be needed with a player or two that are popular.. The Patriots have long made a point of getting rid of guys who either didn't fit the team concept or were no longer fitting the team at the cost vs the return.

I think this team needs to get leadership and character leaders that are not the Flashy diva type but the hard nosed, perform their job week in and week out type..

i have to say he is a great guy and his family is just your typical family. Down to earth and all.

But honestly, he is just way over his head. It shows it. Yes last year was a success on his first year but when dealing with adversity, he crumbled big time and with that the whole team did as well. Reese has a lot to do with it as the offensive line has shown nothing.

when it comes to the offseason, they need to remove all. Every single person and start from scratch. They have a good defense(and if i were them, i would bring back Hankins) but even spags needs to go.

In comment 13671826 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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people who want a wholesale cleaning that it is a lot easier to clean the HC and GM than the roster. Dumping a roster means a significant rebuild time, as well as trying to figure out what to dump - and what to get in return. And even more significantly, dumping a roster is a sure-fire way to accumulate cap costs that are dead. That's why it isn't done.

A wholesale roster overturn is obviously not possible, but where opportunities to move players exist they should be pursued.

Reese has had nearly 7 years to rebuild the offensive line. He has failed. He should be fired.

McAdoo was supposed to provide continuity on offense, and he has failed miserably, his offense is stagnant and ineffective. He should be fired.

You don't really need much more than either of those reasons.

In comment 13671770 Dave in Hoboken said:

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the 2nd half of Eli's prime. Unless, according to some, Reese has no say in picking the players either, right? Jerry Reese, the GM, according to some on BBI, who has literally no say in picking a new HC, players, or anything, really. Pretty funny.

I know it is not intentional, but it is easy to forget Chris Mara and his part in some of the horrible personnel choices. I will not be happy if they can Reese and not Chris Mara at the same time.

but it was primarily a Mara thing.

The problems with the discipline and focus of this team existed long before 2016. This has been an undisciplined, underachieving team for many years. Getting rid of Coughlin and bringing in McAdoo didn't cause that, it just failed so far to fix it.

The Eli posts I just don't understand. Has anyone said he should be cut or benched because he is a malcontent or isn't giving it his all? I have not seen one post to the point from anyone - trolls included. The NFL is about production. If a player is not producing, you don't keep him at his position because he is a professional or a team guy. It would be awesome to have a roster of 53 Elis, but that is not reality. Sometimes production is tied to a temperament like Beckham's and you need to find a way to make it work. That is why these coaches get paid what they do...set a tone and manage the locker room. The answer isn't to find Eli Mannings at every position because they just don't exist.

This a wild fire with high winds...

In comment 13671756 JonC said:

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probably since 2012 or earlier, regardless of whom the head coach was.

Which, to me, raises concerns about the owners' abilty to fix this mess if they do clean house.

In comment 13671866 Britt in VA said:

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Reese has had nearly 7 years to rebuild the offensive line. He has failed. He should be fired. McAdoo was supposed to provide continuity on offense, and he has failed miserably, his offense is stagnant and ineffective. He should be fired. You don't really need much more than either of those reasons.

Exactly, they have given Reese every opportunity and it has resulted in a complete mess. Furthermore, who knows how this season would have gone if McAdoo had put his ego in check and delegate play calling to Sullivan. Lord knows before the Denver game the play calling was the biggest issue. Now we are seeing and hearing that the culture in the Locker Room stinks that there is a sense of lost control.

There really is not one single valid argument to not get rid of the whole FO and Coaching staff. No more band-aids, we need emergency surgery

In comment 13671911 Rick5 said:

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In comment 13671756 JonC said: Quote: probably since 2012 or earlier, regardless of whom the head coach was. Which, to me, raises concerns about the owners' abilty to fix this mess if they do clean house.

Yep, that's what got me fired up yesterday in another thread. It seems a lot of the hiring choices, be it scouts, coaches, players, draft picks ... there's a significant number of failures over many years.

And now, we've got a head coach and apparently some defensive assistants some of the players no longer respect. TC pretty clearly felt Reese played a part in sabotaging his tenure.

This is a mess. I'd be fired within weeks if I performed the way many of these highly, highly paid clowns perform/behave.

In comment 13671869 EricJ said:

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In comment 13671770 Dave in Hoboken said: Quote: the 2nd half of Eli's prime. Unless, according to some, Reese has no say in picking the players either, right? Jerry Reese, the GM, according to some on BBI, who has literally no say in picking a new HC, players, or anything, really. Pretty funny. I know it is not intentional, but it is easy to forget Chris Mara and his part in some of the horrible personnel choices. I will not be happy if they can Reese and not Chris Mara at the same time.

Reese is the GM. He's at the forefront. He gets the credit when things go good re: the roster, he gets the blame when it goes bad.

If there isn't a clean sweep it will BAU and thats not good .
DRC is a bit off the hook but Jenkins is a pro's pro .
Apple is a goof ball but he opened his mouth .
OBJ also made some comments I see many say the boat trip has
nothing to do with this bu I say it does it's another factor that MacHandley is over his head and is piss poor at player management .
Time for a clean sweep and Pray of the #2 pick !

First of all, there will be no moral victories. Second, with the defense imploding and the lack of offensive talent (especially now with the WRs hurt) this team is not capable of much.

If I were Reese and McAdoo, I'd be very concerned about the way the schedule breaks against them in December. The corpse of the 2017 Giants will be home almost entirely throughout December (3 games) all against division rivals.

The Eagles (and their low life fans) will likely be having a party at MetLife as they will most likely be locking up the division, perhaps a bye week, perhaps home-field throughout. That sounds fun doesnt it?

The Cowboys and their national following will be in next, and they will likely have a shot at the playoffs/WC.

They will wrap up another lost season in a meaningless finale against Washington in a mostly empty stadium on New Years Eve.

Who would blame any season ticket holder for unloading these tickets well in advance to recoup some of the outrageous price they paid for the tickets in the first place. Let's see, go to a cold MetLife stadium to watch a lifeless season play out surrounded by Eagles, Cowboys and Skins fans? Or stay at home with the family and enjoy the holidays? Going to be a pretty easy decision for many.

If the Mara way is to evaluate based on attendance/meaningful December home games, this regime doesnt stand a chance.

The truth is that this team barely played on October home game that had any meaning. All this for a season with Super Bowl aspirations? After an offseason that included roster moves with an eye on a likely 2 year championship window?

Not good.

In comment 13671791 jcn56 said:

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In comment 13671774 widmerseyebrow said: Quote: He signed with the Rams when Spags was the head coach. Seems like another reach. I can't verify any of that story, let alone whether that was really Kehl (although it sure sounded like it was). The only part I can verify - he didn't sign with the Rams. He was claimed off waivers. Wasn't his choice. Hell, read the post for yourself to see what he thought. Quote: Thank you. Spagz is a guy who is either really liked, or completely hated. A lot of guys loved him in NY. Some hated him. In STL, when he was the HC, he kind of took things up a notch. I wish you could understand how AWFUL our training camp was. When I told guys in WAS or KC about it, they didn't believe me. Example - he had our O line CUT BLOCK our D line in training camp. Did it all the time!!! Said - if we don't learn how to do it now, when will we? We were like - if you don't know how to do it in the Pros, you aren't going to ever learn. We put like 6 corners on IR that year. 6!!! He TOTALLY lost the locker room. Disclosure: I've always been a fan of Spags and advocated bringing him back. http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=522371&show_all=1#12544776 - ( New Window )

I stand corrected. My post before wasn't a shot at you, just the credibility of BryanKehl. Even if it was him, his tenure just rubbed me the wrong way. At face value, did his comments really say anything about how the team felt about the quality of Spags coaching? Some guys liked him and some guys hated him? Well some guys get a lot of playing time and some guys dont. Some guys are winners and some are losers. That rams roster had a lot of losers. Kehl was one of them.