The Giants are a perfect example of why pure talent doesn't always or actually seldom, works in the NFL. Football is the ultimate team game. No matter how talented a team may be, me first players, behavior problems and the like preclude ultimate team success. This is one reason why a team like NE is successful. They weed these types out. Furthermore, a common culture that is instilled on a properly selected draft choice just adds to the team concept and success. This is why free agency used to the max like the Giants did, is also seldom successful. No common upbringing or even worse, an upbringing by a dysfunctional team can make many FA's fools gold.. These dysfunctional teams can be a source of talented but weak character FA's (see Janoris Jenkins for example ). The Giants need to clean house, get a new GM and coach, keep the appropriate players and rebuild their corporate culture and talent intelligently. As the Eagles have shown, a smart GM can do this quickly. I must say, having rooted for the Giants since 1970, this is the most unlikable group from management down through the coach and many of the players that I have endured. Many of them embody many things I detest in people ranging from arrogance to stupidity to lack of effort. It does piss me off that all rooting interests aside, both the Eagles and to an extent the Cowboys ( several players to be excluded ), are more likeable than the Giants.
Language matters and discussion is how we refine it.
Is it taking your helmet off to showboat so that a rule is actually created in your honor?
Is it fighting with coaches and staff during games?
I'm confused here.
The Leon Lett School of Fumble Returns?
In some communities you work, get salary and leave. I kind of like that model, because it reflects the idea that the boss respects you as an individual, one that has his own free time.
In other situations, boss wants you to attend his rock shows, church, yoga sessions, family birthdays.
In a sense it's less respectful. This second model, Because it implies that the normal hierarchy - the one that we all sign up for, to get dollars- exists beyond the usual parameters. Boss may think it's an invitation, but maybe it's an intrusion.
Think Harvey weinstien. As a random example.
Yeah, yeah, I know - "football character". Like the kind that hasn't produced a SB since the mid 1990's.
The fact that Reese drafted him instead of Zach Martin when we had a crying need on the O line should be grounds alone for him to be fired.
You should never be allowed to post again after this disaster.
"The perception is you have been winning championships with bums."
Jerruh: "Bums don't win championships."
The Giants won 11 last season with most of these guys. The season went into the crapper for various reasons. The character quality is insignificant , other than to remind that losing begets all sort of negative behavior . Such is the human condition .
Or is it because they win? How many teams with bad records look like they have poor leadership or are low character?
But your not wrong though.
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This is one reason why a team like NE is successful. They weed these types out
You mean like Aaron Hernandez? Gronk, dancing with a broken arm? Wes Welker stealing people's girlfriends?
The Pats have had their share of idiots, but they win.
This isn't to imply character doesn't matter, but choosing what character traits are bringing things down is difficult.
When Cam Newton acts like a jackass two years ago, he's just having fun. Now, he's a brooding malcontent. Every star WR is mercurial and diva-like, so discussing them in the context of character is really strange. There's a lot of character concerns with Seahawk players - but wjile they are winning, it is all good.
That's the key just win - win and character becomes part of the story of the "fun" and "looseness". Lose, and character becomes a talking point of Cancer.
This was my initial reaction.
The Pats don’t win because they have a roster loaded with high character try hards. They win because BB has a system, he gets players that fit that system, and he’s able to manage character issue guys enough due to his credibility. McAdoo has no credibility.
In some communities you work, get salary and leave. I kind of like that model, because it reflects the idea that the boss respects you as an individual, one that has his own free time.
In other situations, boss wants you to attend his rock shows, church, yoga sessions, family birthdays.
In a sense it's less respectful. This second model, Because it implies that the normal hierarchy - the one that we all sign up for, to get dollars- exists beyond the usual parameters. Boss may think it's an invitation, but maybe it's an intrusion.
Think Harvey weinstien. As a random example.
Why does every thread on here have to include your random streams of consciousness?
Is a 'bum':
1. A person who fails to produce.
2. A person who fails to try.
3. A person who doesn't have his brothers back?
4. A smelly homeless person?
With jerruh it may be a combination of one with a narrow version of two.
The problem with this team isn't lack of character. It's a lack of talent and the above-mentioned quality. Talent on the OL and LB is sparse. The some of the guys who should be great players, like JPP, just don't hate losing enough and sometimes seem happy cashing a check.
But even in this thread, when other guys hate losing - it is a positive. When we hate losing, it is due to poor character.
The difference? Leadership.
The difference? Leadership.
Yes, but most of that has to do with the coach. Like I said earlier, does every team with a poor record have bad leadership? I think that's bullshit.
That's why the whole discussion of if character matters is bullshit. Not because character isn't an influence, but because people are making assumptions on who has high character and low character, based on various reports.
The only thing clear is that something is broken. I'm not sure anyone can say with certainly what it is, but it sure is a heck of a lot easier to blow up leadership than it is to blow up the entire team.
The problem with this team isn't lack of character. It's a lack of talent and the above-mentioned quality. Talent on the OL and LB is sparse. The some of the guys who should be great players, like JPP, just don't hate losing enough and sometimes seem happy cashing a check.
Great post
Again - speculative assumptions about players. JPP is so de-motivated that he rehabbed half a hand to come back and play - and play well.
Christ, we have taken guys like Jenkins, Vernon, JPP and DRC who have played well in the past and now are making them out to be low character guys who don't mind losing.
Other than the most extreme cases, and even then you will find a lot of fans supporting them, for the most part how they are viewed is usually based on how they preform.
There is a fine line between being a rowdy mans man and a trouble maker, and that difference usually depend on their success.
Take the Steelers. . . Ben Roethlisberger is a massive piece of shit. But he is a winning football player. But the Steelers are usually a winning football team.
So if that's the case with JPP, then why Landon Collins who's still on his rookie deal?
The logic doesn't add up.
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when you literally see OBJ shedding tears over games, I think it's a fair assumption he hates losing, and I never mentioned anything about Vernon, DRC, or Jenkins. I have no idea and wouldn't hazard a guess. I mention JPP because people on this site who are close to the team have mentioned his motor just not being consistent. And did he rehab his hand because he wants to win or knew this contract would likely be his last chance at a big paycheck. Do you think it's a coincidence that JPP has now been paid but isn't putting up the same season as he did last year when theoretically at least he should be better because he is another year removed from getting used to playing with these physical limitations.
So if that's the case with JPP, then why Landon Collins who's still on his rookie deal?
The logic doesn't add up.
I never said anything about Collins. What about Collins?
Again - speculative assumptions about players. JPP is so de-motivated that he rehabbed half a hand to come back and play - and play well.
Christ, we have taken guys like Jenkins, Vernon, JPP and DRC who have played well in the past and now are making them out to be low character guys who don't mind losing.
I should clarify I like the 1st paragraph. It's true, the great ones have typically hated losing more than being "character" guys, whatever that means.
Winning sweeps these issues under a rug and losing puts a spotlight on them.
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In comment 13672013 Now Mike in MD said:
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when you literally see OBJ shedding tears over games, I think it's a fair assumption he hates losing, and I never mentioned anything about Vernon, DRC, or Jenkins. I have no idea and wouldn't hazard a guess. I mention JPP because people on this site who are close to the team have mentioned his motor just not being consistent. And did he rehab his hand because he wants to win or knew this contract would likely be his last chance at a big paycheck. Do you think it's a coincidence that JPP has now been paid but isn't putting up the same season as he did last year when theoretically at least he should be better because he is another year removed from getting used to playing with these physical limitations.
So if that's the case with JPP, then why Landon Collins who's still on his rookie deal?
The logic doesn't add up.
I never said anything about Collins. What about Collins?
How do you determine JPP's play is due to already getting paid but not a player who hasn't been paid yet?
These are such arbitrary and unmeasurable claims.
Take the Steelers. . . Ben Roethlisberger is a massive piece of shit. But he is a winning football player. But the Steelers are usually a winning football team.
True statement. Taking it further, true character often comes out when faced with adversity.
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In comment 13672028 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 13672013 Now Mike in MD said:
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when you literally see OBJ shedding tears over games, I think it's a fair assumption he hates losing, and I never mentioned anything about Vernon, DRC, or Jenkins. I have no idea and wouldn't hazard a guess. I mention JPP because people on this site who are close to the team have mentioned his motor just not being consistent. And did he rehab his hand because he wants to win or knew this contract would likely be his last chance at a big paycheck. Do you think it's a coincidence that JPP has now been paid but isn't putting up the same season as he did last year when theoretically at least he should be better because he is another year removed from getting used to playing with these physical limitations.
So if that's the case with JPP, then why Landon Collins who's still on his rookie deal?
The logic doesn't add up.
I never said anything about Collins. What about Collins?
How do you determine JPP's play is due to already getting paid but not a player who hasn't been paid yet?
These are such arbitrary and unmeasurable claims.
Admittedly, it's an assumption, but it is based on (1) JPP having a history of running hot and cold and those up and downs coinciding with contracts; (2) people on this site who are close to the Giants noting this same phenomenon; (3) to me, aside from the INTs, I don't see that significant a difference in Collins. He seems to be playing at a very high level and to the extent he has had any drop off, I would write that off to the ankle injury.
The Giants still operate in a top down structure, at least it appears that way to someone on the outside. Reese has or should have the authority to hire and fire the HC.
Please go back and look at the structure of most teams in the league. The HC often reports the same way the Giants have it in place, including most of the Super Bowl teams in this decade.
Greatest 4-3 team in the history of the NFL - nay, in the history of all organized sports!
But now they're all suddenly following his example and are so influenced by him.
Gotta keep on moving those goalposts. Nary a peep about character when the Giants were winning games last year.
But hey - let's make sure we pass on guys of Beckham's caliber going forward and opt for the college captains who are high motor guys and try really hard. That worked awesomely for us the last time.
You probably can point to the Dallas catch in 2014. A game which the Giants were 3-7 at the time & ultimately lost.
He's never been in legal trouble, he's not a locker room issue.
He had one really out of control day against Carolina in 2015 - beyond that, I'm not sure there's really anything he does that falls under the category of character issues. Too demonstrative? Who cares.
Andre Johnson lost his cool against Cortland Finnegan once too. If that's all a guy needs to do to get pegged for poor character, I'm not sure it's a fair barometer.
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Started with the drafting of OBJ. His on field mental disorder and the coach's not dealing with it by looking the other way gave the rest of the players free will to do what they want.
The fact that Reese drafted him instead of Zach Martin when we had a crying need on the O line should be grounds alone for him to be fired.
You should never be allowed to post again after this disaster.
Thank you.
I think that's what happened, although the D has taken a bigger step back than expected.
Bottom line, Reese gambled on the OL and lost. That ended up disrupting the entire O and, ultimately, team.
My .02.