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Why do people say Reese is good in the first round?

FStubbs : 11/3/2017 1:22 pm
Since our last title, he's actually kind of bad in the first round.

Evan Engram's year is yet incomplete, so let's look at the last few years.

2016 - Eli Apple
2015 - Ereck Flowers
2014 - Odell Beckham
2013 - Justin Pugh
2012 - David Wilson
2011 - Prince Amukumara

Only two of those guys were worth a first round pick. The rest? Eh.

Since 2011 there is no reason, none whatsoever, to keep the Reese/Ross/Mara regime in the front office. There is nothing positive about this team whatsoever.
second round  
Rocky369 : 11/3/2017 1:27 pm : link
.
Wilson very well could have been  
BigBlue4You09 : 11/3/2017 1:29 pm : link
Can't blame Reese for his injury
Go look at every GM in the league  
Rflairr : 11/3/2017 1:30 pm : link
All of them have hits and misses. People love the Patriots go look at Bill’s drafts
Wilson was a poor pick  
Paulie Walnuts : 11/3/2017 1:35 pm : link
in 2011 we knew the OL was the major need, we could not run the ball and Diehl plugged in at LT to win the title
MacKenzie was done

Wilson pick should have been an OL
RE: Go look at every GM in the league  
Paulie Walnuts : 11/3/2017 1:35 pm : link
In comment 13674342 Rflairr said:
Quote:
All of them have hits and misses. People love the Patriots go look at Bill’s drafts

I prefer to look at Bills results

you are what you record says you are
I'd sign up for that
And we all said it that spring before  
idiotsavant : 11/3/2017 1:36 pm : link
The draft Pauli . yes.
RE: Wilson was a poor pick  
AcidTest : 11/3/2017 1:39 pm : link
In comment 13674350 Paulie Walnuts said:
Quote:
in 2011 we knew the OL was the major need, we could not run the ball and Diehl plugged in at LT to win the title
MacKenzie was done

Wilson pick should have been an OL


They should have taken Cordy Glenn. The rumor was he was higher on their draft board. The Bills were surprised he was still available in the second round.
RE: Wilson very well could have been  
FStubbs : 11/3/2017 1:39 pm : link
In comment 13674338 BigBlue4You09 said:
Quote:
Can't blame Reese for his injury


No but even before the injury he wasn't living up to a 1st round pick.
RE: Wilson was a poor pick  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 11/3/2017 1:41 pm : link
In comment 13674350 Paulie Walnuts said:
Quote:
in 2011 we knew the OL was the major need, we could not run the ball and Diehl plugged in at LT to win the title
MacKenzie was done

Wilson pick should have been an OL


He was poor enough that he set an NFL record for all purpose yards in a game that still stands today.

Damn shame we didn't get to see what he was fully capable of before is entire career was derailed by injury.
The Giants were coming off of a season where  
eclipz928 : 11/3/2017 1:52 pm : link
they were dead last in rushing. It would have been criminal for them not to take an RB in the 1st round.
RE: RE: Wilson was a poor pick  
Paulie Walnuts : 11/3/2017 1:53 pm : link
In comment 13674371 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
In comment 13674350 Paulie Walnuts said:


Quote:


in 2011 we knew the OL was the major need, we could not run the ball and Diehl plugged in at LT to win the title
MacKenzie was done

Wilson pick should have been an OL



He was poor enough that he set an NFL record for all purpose yards in a game that still stands today.

Damn shame we didn't get to see what he was fully capable of before is entire career was derailed by injury.


great, now imagine Wilson trying to run behind last year/ this years OL
RE: The Giants were coming off of a season where  
Paulie Walnuts : 11/3/2017 1:53 pm : link
In comment 13674403 eclipz928 said:
Quote:
they were dead last in rushing. It would have been criminal for them not to take an RB in the 1st round.

the OL was shot and you could have taken a back later
2 Things  
Samiam : 11/3/2017 1:55 pm : link
First, why start at 2011? By doing that you’re leaving out Nicks & Phillips who were on their way to all Pro status plus Ross who was big instrumental in winning 1 SB and played a good part in the 2nd.

Second,I agree that the David Wilson pick was a mistake in that an OL would have helped more. That said, if their other OL picks during those years had been productive and Wilson stayed healthy, we’ll never know what would have happened. While I viewed Wilson as a role player, he would have been an incredible matchup problem for any defense
shit Reese has blow draft after draft  
Paulie Walnuts : 11/3/2017 2:08 pm : link
espcially since Ross joined the team
front office is to blame for these failures
RE: RE: RE: Wilson was a poor pick  
BigBlueinChicago : 11/3/2017 2:10 pm : link
In comment 13674406 Paulie Walnuts said:
Quote:
great, now imagine Wilson trying to run behind last year/ this years OL


Well, he did try to run behind a line that had Brandon Myers their main blocking tight end....
.  
arcarsenal : 11/3/2017 2:11 pm : link
You're framing it in a way that makes your argument stronger by starting at a completely arbitrary point in his tenure and deciding to more or less omit Engram just because he's only played half a season.

The problem with these arguments is that they always lack context. You'd have to prove that this track record is poorer than at least half the other teams in the league for it to really hold any water. Otherwise, it doesn't say anything.
If anything you could literally state  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 11/3/2017 2:28 pm : link
that he finds exceptional talent with short life spands.

We have an incredible amount of players that get hurt and don't make it to a second contract.

That's what really hurt the team long-term. Can't build of players that aren't available.
Wasn't Wilson seen  
RomanWH : 11/3/2017 2:29 pm : link
as a desperation pick since Doug Martin got taken ahead of our pick? I seen to recall that was the case... that they were enamored with Martin and got sniped (not unlike having to take Aaron Ross because Revis got picked ahead of us.
RE: RE: Wilson was a poor pick  
mrvax : 11/3/2017 2:30 pm : link
In comment 13674371 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
In comment 13674350 Paulie Walnuts said:


Quote:


in 2011 we knew the OL was the major need, we could not run the ball and Diehl plugged in at LT to win the title
MacKenzie was done

Wilson pick should have been an OL



He was poor enough that he set an NFL record for all purpose yards in a game that still stands today.

Damn shame we didn't get to see what he was fully capable of before is entire career was derailed by injury.


Agreed. At the time Wilson was drafted, the only running back the Giants had signed was a banged up Bradshaw. Wilson was special. Damn shame.
RE: RE: Wilson was a poor pick  
regulator : 11/3/2017 2:31 pm : link
In comment 13674371 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
In comment 13674350 Paulie Walnuts said:


Quote:


in 2011 we knew the OL was the major need, we could not run the ball and Diehl plugged in at LT to win the title
MacKenzie was done

Wilson pick should have been an OL



He was poor enough that he set an NFL record for all purpose yards in a game that still stands today.

Damn shame we didn't get to see what he was fully capable of before is entire career was derailed by injury.


It was a Giants record, not NFL, but your point is well taken.
"Only two of those guys were worth a first round pick"  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/3/2017 2:34 pm : link
With the use of hindsight, everyone gets to say they have the same eye for talent as George Young.

Also, I highly disagree with that assessment.
RE: Wasn't Wilson seen  
mrvax : 11/3/2017 2:35 pm : link
In comment 13674464 RomanWH said:
Quote:
as a desperation pick since Doug Martin got taken ahead of our pick? I seen to recall that was the case... that they were enamored with Martin and got sniped (not unlike having to take Aaron Ross because Revis got picked ahead of us.


Roman, that's a popular misconception. During the 1st round, the BBI site owner (Eric) was told by a Giants insider they wanted to pick Wilson, not Martin.
RE:  
FStubbs : 11/3/2017 2:52 pm : link
In comment 13674478 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
With the use of hindsight, everyone gets to say they have the same eye for talent as George Young.

Also, I highly disagree with that assessment.


Yeah, but I'm not the Giants GM.
RE: .  
FStubbs : 11/3/2017 2:53 pm : link
In comment 13674441 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
You're framing it in a way that makes your argument stronger by starting at a completely arbitrary point in his tenure and deciding to more or less omit Engram just because he's only played half a season.

The problem with these arguments is that they always lack context. You'd have to prove that this track record is poorer than at least half the other teams in the league for it to really hold any water. Otherwise, it doesn't say anything.


The last time this team won a title isn't exactly arbitrary.
Engrams is incomplete?  
KWALL2 : 11/3/2017 2:55 pm : link
That's just a weak attempt to make your point.

He's a keeper and a great draft pick.

Wilson wasn't a bad pick. Nobody can make that claim without looking like a fool. He was talented with rare speed. He got hurt. You can't knock the pick of an injured player.

The only bad pick was Flowers. He sucks.

Pugh was a very good pick.

Beckham a great pick.

Apple and Prince play the toughest position and fans unfairly rip NFL CBs.

Prince was a good player. And he's playing really well right now in CHI.

Right after Prince was picked, look at the next 10 guys. There wasn't a run of good players. Prince was OK for where he was drafted and what was available on the board.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 11/3/2017 2:57 pm : link
In comment 13674505 FStubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 13674441 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


You're framing it in a way that makes your argument stronger by starting at a completely arbitrary point in his tenure and deciding to more or less omit Engram just because he's only played half a season.

The problem with these arguments is that they always lack context. You'd have to prove that this track record is poorer than at least half the other teams in the league for it to really hold any water. Otherwise, it doesn't say anything.



The last time this team won a title isn't exactly arbitrary.


It absolutely is.

It has zero relevance in terms of Jerry Reese's first round selections which is the entire premise of your post.
Grade the draft  
Bluesbreaker : 11/3/2017 2:59 pm : link
just look at our depth . OBJ was a given they knew more about him than anyone IMO . You still have two top 10 picks that have yet to cement or justify where they were picked .
Two others are now injury prone so it seems give me a break
time for a change this team is going nowhere fast .
.  
arcarsenal : 11/3/2017 3:00 pm : link
And it's obvious you chose 2011 because the three first round selections the 3 prior to that were all very solid ones. (Pierre-Paul, Nicks, Phillips)

You created your own irrelevant parameters in an effort to strengthen your point and it's clear as day.

Also, again.. until you can prove that Reese's first round track record is subpar compared to most other GM's in the league, the argument holds little water.
these arguments about Reese's  
Enzo : 11/3/2017 3:03 pm : link
draft record have been done a million times. It's been clear for a quite a while that he hasn't been doing a good job. The good news is that you no longer have to waste time arguing over the Ramses Bardens and Clint Sintims of the world....you just have to point to the team's record the last few years and the clown he hired to coach the team.
RE: Engrams is incomplete?  
FStubbs : 11/3/2017 3:04 pm : link
In comment 13674510 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
That's just a weak attempt to make your point.

He's a keeper and a great draft pick.

Wilson wasn't a bad pick. Nobody can make that claim without looking like a fool. He was talented with rare speed. He got hurt. You can't knock the pick of an injured player.

The only bad pick was Flowers. He sucks.

Pugh was a very good pick.

Beckham a great pick.

Apple and Prince play the toughest position and fans unfairly rip NFL CBs.

Prince was a good player. And he's playing really well right now in CHI.

Right after Prince was picked, look at the next 10 guys. There wasn't a run of good players. Prince was OK for where he was drafted and what was available on the board.


I can definitely say Wilson was a bad pick.

2012 New York Giants 16 71 4.4 358 5.0 22.4 4 52T 17 23.9 5 2 1
2013 New York Giants 5 44 8.8 146 3.3 29.2 1 18 10 22.7 0 0 2

He was trending well for a mid-round RB pick but not a guy you pick in the first round. Don't cite Tiki - that was atypical. RBs usually are there from their rookie year.

Prince Amukumara - you neglected to mention he not only was not deemed worth resigning here, but couldn't start in Jacksonville. Does not sound like a first rounder to me.

Eli Apple - I hope I eat crow but right now ... no, he does not look like a first rounder, much less a top 10 pick in the draft.

My point remains - the one thing people have left to hold their hat onto in a defense of Reese is his supposed drafting prowess in the first round, and I think it's clear that over the last few years, even if Engram continues to grow as a player, that it's simply not true.
RE: RE:  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/3/2017 3:05 pm : link
In comment 13674502 FStubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 13674478 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


With the use of hindsight, everyone gets to say they have the same eye for talent as George Young.

Also, I highly disagree with that assessment.



Yeah, but I'm not the Giants GM.


I don't know what you're trying to say here.

Anyway, you're playing the results. Easy to say these guys weren't worth the picks now. But that isn't the job. The job is making selections based on not knowing the results beforehard. Prince Amukamara was one of the best players in college in his year. Arguably the best or second best Cornerback in his draft year. That he fell to NY was considered to be incredible.
RE: RE: RE: Wilson was a poor pick  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 11/3/2017 3:09 pm : link
In comment 13674472 regulator said:
Quote:
In comment 13674371 BigBlueDownTheShore said:


Quote:


In comment 13674350 Paulie Walnuts said:


Quote:


in 2011 we knew the OL was the major need, we could not run the ball and Diehl plugged in at LT to win the title
MacKenzie was done

Wilson pick should have been an OL



He was poor enough that he set an NFL record for all purpose yards in a game that still stands today.

Damn shame we didn't get to see what he was fully capable of before is entire career was derailed by injury.



It was a Giants record, not NFL, but your point is well taken.


Maybe I was tad off, but

Quote:
Wilson is the first player in NFL history with at least 200 kickoff return yards and 100 rushing yards in the same game.
I don't think  
santacruzom : 11/3/2017 3:10 pm : link
any of those players were considered to be a sub-first rounder when they were actually selected. Maybe Flowers and Pugh were, but I think the consensus was that they were at worst late first round talents.
RE: 2 Things  
bluepepper : 11/3/2017 3:11 pm : link
In comment 13674412 Samiam said:
Quote:
First, why start at 2011? By doing that you’re leaving out Nicks & Phillips who were on their way to all Pro status plus Ross who was big instrumental in winning 1 SB and played a good part in the 2nd.


He starts in 2011 because 2010 was JPP so he needs to exclude him as well as Nicks to make his point.
RE: RE: Engrams is incomplete?  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 11/3/2017 3:12 pm : link
In comment 13674530 FStubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 13674510 KWALL2 said:


Quote:


That's just a weak attempt to make your point.

He's a keeper and a great draft pick.

Wilson wasn't a bad pick. Nobody can make that claim without looking like a fool. He was talented with rare speed. He got hurt. You can't knock the pick of an injured player.

The only bad pick was Flowers. He sucks.

Pugh was a very good pick.

Beckham a great pick.

Apple and Prince play the toughest position and fans unfairly rip NFL CBs.

Prince was a good player. And he's playing really well right now in CHI.

Right after Prince was picked, look at the next 10 guys. There wasn't a run of good players. Prince was OK for where he was drafted and what was available on the board.



I can definitely say Wilson was a bad pick.

2012 New York Giants 16 71 4.4 358 5.0 22.4 4 52T 17 23.9 5 2 1
2013 New York Giants 5 44 8.8 146 3.3 29.2 1 18 10 22.7 0 0 2

He was trending well for a mid-round RB pick but not a guy you pick in the first round. Don't cite Tiki - that was atypical. RBs usually are there from their rookie year.

Prince Amukumara - you neglected to mention he not only was not deemed worth resigning here, but couldn't start in Jacksonville. Does not sound like a first rounder to me.

Eli Apple - I hope I eat crow but right now ... no, he does not look like a first rounder, much less a top 10 pick in the draft.

My point remains - the one thing people have left to hold their hat onto in a defense of Reese is his supposed drafting prowess in the first round, and I think it's clear that over the last few years, even if Engram continues to grow as a player, that it's simply not true.


RE: RE: RE:  
FStubbs : 11/3/2017 3:13 pm : link
In comment 13674531 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13674502 FStubbs said:


Quote:


In comment 13674478 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


With the use of hindsight, everyone gets to say they have the same eye for talent as George Young.

Also, I highly disagree with that assessment.



Yeah, but I'm not the Giants GM.



I don't know what you're trying to say here.

Anyway, you're playing the results. Easy to say these guys weren't worth the picks now. But that isn't the job. The job is making selections based on not knowing the results beforehard. Prince Amukamara was one of the best players in college in his year. Arguably the best or second best Cornerback in his draft year. That he fell to NY was considered to be incredible.


No, the job is to research the players, anticipate that these would be the results, and plan accordingly. The team can't predict injuries like Wilson's, but then I still believe Wilson before his injury was not playing like a 1st rounder.

It is absolutely expected that a GM or talent evaluator should be able to look at a player and be able to project how they will do in the NFL. Not 100% of the time, but certainly better than what we've seen from Reese over the past few years.

A player "falling to the Giants" is cool in the Mel Kiper/Tood McShay world, but a good GM needs to know the player is "falling" because he is not worth the pick.
Some of the JR supporters are trying to make all kinds to excuses..  
chuckydee9 : 11/3/2017 3:14 pm : link
There have been numbers shared right here on BBI that show JR is the bottom 5 in drafting after 2nd round.. yet they don't read those and analyze them.. they just repeat the same thing.. all teams have failed draft picks..

Any how how is this number:
40-48 since the last superbowl.. Talent is as much to blame if not more than coaching in that record.. Also its acceptable to have that record if you had QB problems.. JR was handed a Franchise QB in his prime.. to have that record with a HoF QB means you have screwed things up.. Please let me know what your argument is here?
The first round picks have been very hit or miss  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/3/2017 3:15 pm : link
over the past 6 years. It's a fair assessment for the last 6 seasons, which is a significant period of time.
RE: RE: Engrams is incomplete?  
santacruzom : 11/3/2017 3:16 pm : link
In comment 13674530 FStubbs said:
Quote:

He was trending well for a mid-round RB pick but not a guy you pick in the first round. Don't cite Tiki - that was atypical. RBs usually are there from their rookie year.


Wasn't Wilson taken with the absolute last pick of the round?

And even if not, you can't really use his few performances before suffering a career ending injury to prove it was a bad pick. You'd be better served researching what his pre-draft grades were. If he were assessed as a consensus fourth rounder or something, you'd have a point.
RE: RE: RE: RE:  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/3/2017 3:17 pm : link
In comment 13674547 FStubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 13674531 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13674502 FStubbs said:


Quote:


In comment 13674478 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


With the use of hindsight, everyone gets to say they have the same eye for talent as George Young.

Also, I highly disagree with that assessment.



Yeah, but I'm not the Giants GM.



I don't know what you're trying to say here.

Anyway, you're playing the results. Easy to say these guys weren't worth the picks now. But that isn't the job. The job is making selections based on not knowing the results beforehard. Prince Amukamara was one of the best players in college in his year. Arguably the best or second best Cornerback in his draft year. That he fell to NY was considered to be incredible.



No, the job is to research the players, anticipate that these would be the results, and plan accordingly. The team can't predict injuries like Wilson's, but then I still believe Wilson before his injury was not playing like a 1st rounder.

It is absolutely expected that a GM or talent evaluator should be able to look at a player and be able to project how they will do in the NFL. Not 100% of the time, but certainly better than what we've seen from Reese over the past few years.

A player "falling to the Giants" is cool in the Mel Kiper/Tood McShay world, but a good GM needs to know the player is "falling" because he is not worth the pick.


I don't think you're actually aware of what kind of success rates "good GMs" have in this league. Ozzie Newsome lives at the top of the list for general managers and feel free to browse through his draft history and look at all the failures.
Even with Beckham  
PaulBlakeTSU : 11/3/2017 3:17 pm : link
as incredible as he is, it would have been very hard for Reese to screw that up.

Available were Beckham, Aaron Donald, and Zack Martin. Any one of those picks would have turned into an important starter from Day 1.
Yep..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/3/2017 3:18 pm : link
Quote:
RE:
FStubbs : 2:52 pm : link : reply

Yeah, but I'm not the Giants GM.


And thank fucking God.
RE: Even with Beckham  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/3/2017 3:22 pm : link
In comment 13674556 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
as incredible as he is, it would have been very hard for Reese to screw that up.

Available were Beckham, Aaron Donald, and Zack Martin. Any one of those picks would have turned into an important starter from Day 1.


It's not really fair to say this without recalling the conversations that were had at the time. Of those three, only Martin was a player that people around the NFL took as a given.

It wasn't like people knew Aaron Donald was going to be a star. Most were commenting that he was too undersized to play at this level. Beckham wasn't even one of the top 3 receivers on the list. Can't frame it as if it was impossible to mess up here.
RE: Yep..  
FStubbs : 11/3/2017 3:24 pm : link
In comment 13674558 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


RE:
FStubbs : 2:52 pm : link : reply

Yeah, but I'm not the Giants GM.



And thank fucking God.


Well, yeah. I think you'd stink as GM as well. It's why we're posting and not drafting players.

If you mean "I think you're an idiot", then screw you too buddy. Make some points.
RE: Some of the JR supporters are trying to make all kinds to excuses..  
FStubbs : 11/3/2017 3:27 pm : link
In comment 13674548 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
There have been numbers shared right here on BBI that show JR is the bottom 5 in drafting after 2nd round.. yet they don't read those and analyze them.. they just repeat the same thing.. all teams have failed draft picks..

Any how how is this number:
40-48 since the last superbowl.. Talent is as much to blame if not more than coaching in that record.. Also its acceptable to have that record if you had QB problems.. JR was handed a Franchise QB in his prime.. to have that record with a HoF QB means you have screwed things up.. Please let me know what your argument is here?


The argument people in this thread seem to be making is that Reese is somehow good in the first round. Which since 2011 is simply not true.
Huh??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/3/2017 3:31 pm : link
Quote:
If you mean "I think you're an idiot", then screw you too buddy. Make some points.


They've already been made. If you think Reese is bad in the 1st round, then you are an idiot, but it is only the latest in a long line of evidence to point that out.

The refuting of your point is well covered above, but apparently, you don't give a fuck.
RE: Huh??  
FStubbs : 11/3/2017 3:35 pm : link
In comment 13674577 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


If you mean "I think you're an idiot", then screw you too buddy. Make some points.



They've already been made. If you think Reese is bad in the 1st round, then you are an idiot, but it is only the latest in a long line of evidence to point that out.

The refuting of your point is well covered above, but apparently, you don't give a fuck.


And I've pointed out why I think those points don't hold water.

And well, yeah, why should I care what some internet tough guy thinks of me?

I'm a liberal Giants fan. Until that's no longer allowed I'm going to keep posting.
To expand, there are literally no players  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/3/2017 3:39 pm : link
from the 2011-2012 drafts on this team. Paints quite a picture. Literally not one.
So how many players from 5 and 6 years ago  
Dodge : 11/3/2017 3:44 pm : link
on average, are still on the team that drafted them?
RE: Wilson very well could have been  
djstat : 11/3/2017 3:47 pm : link
In comment 13674338 BigBlue4You09 said:
Quote:
Can't blame Reese for his injury
Wilson was terrible year 1 and year 2. A RB not being able to be good in year 1 and year 2 is a bust
Was he "terrible?"  
santacruzom : 11/3/2017 4:06 pm : link
I saw some holes in his game that aren't egregious for a young rookie and maybe questionable vision, but also saw some promise. He did average 5 yards a carry and only fumbled once.

In 2013, we had absolutely no running back who was good.
put another way  
santacruzom : 11/3/2017 4:07 pm : link
in 2013, we had no running back who performed well, and very few offensive players in general who performed all that great.
Reese  
AcidTest : 11/3/2017 5:08 pm : link
has been credible in the first round, although I'm not sure how much credit he deserves for not screwing up those picks. A GM is supposed to get those right.

The problem is that our drafts consistently get worse as the draft progresses, to the point where day three is invariably a waste. Most of those picks don't work out for any team, but a few exceptions notwithstanding, his draft record is really bad.

2009 is a good example. Nicks and Beatty were very good selections. But the rest of the draft was awful, including Sintim in the second round. He also had double draft picks in the third and fifth rounds.

Reese is ultimately responsible for the whole draft, but he obviously can't scout every player. So maybe the problem is the scouts, since it's their evaluations that he's relying on for the later picks. Who advised him to take A. Robinson or M. Thompson? Maybe the answer is to keep Reese, and fire the scouts.
RE: Reese  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 11/3/2017 5:48 pm : link
In comment 13674668 AcidTest said:
Quote:
has been credible in the first round, although I'm not sure how much credit he deserves for not screwing up those picks. A GM is supposed to get those right.

The problem is that our drafts consistently get worse as the draft progresses, to the point where day three is invariably a waste. Most of those picks don't work out for any team, but a few exceptions notwithstanding, his draft record is really bad.

2009 is a good example. Nicks and Beatty were very good selections. But the rest of the draft was awful, including Sintim in the second round. He also had double draft picks in the third and fifth rounds.

Reese is ultimately responsible for the whole draft, but he obviously can't scout every player. So maybe the problem is the scouts, since it's their evaluations that he's relying on for the later picks. Who advised him to take A. Robinson or M. Thompson? Maybe the answer is to keep Reese, and fire the scouts.


You guys must forget completely and utterly blowing first rounders and second rounders. Ernie and Young used to do it all the time. Reese for all his flaws doesn’t completely blow the first 2 picks in the draft.
Why only go back to 2011?  
Gregorio : 11/3/2017 6:25 pm : link
it gives a more complete picture to include all 1st rounder under Reese.

2016 - Eli Apple
2015 - Ereck Flowers
2014 - Odell Beckham
2013 - Justin Pugh
2012 - David Wilson
2011 - Prince Amukumara
2012 - Jason Pierre-Paul
2009 - Hakeem Nicks
2008 - Kenny Phillips
2007 - Aaron Ross
First you should get a player in round 1  
joeinpa : 11/3/2017 6:26 pm : link
That s agiven.

Secondly, two first round picks, top 10 picks, start on the offensive line, how s that working out.

Thirdly, the lack of draft choices that sign a second contract for the Giants is startling.

Reese hasn t been bad in the first round, but as of late, he hasn t been great.

According to Gruden, Giants were only team in NFL who saw Flowers as a lefts tackle. That s a revealing fact.
Which is it?  
Painless62 : 11/3/2017 7:28 pm : link
If Reese isn’t bad , then our coaching must be. You can’t have so many sub par to bad seasons without one of the 2 true. Injuries are a factor, but we have been luckily to not have had our qb miss any games over our multi year streak of crap. My money is on Reese or whomever co GMs with him. Not that we can’t get better coaching. That coaching can only happen if the ownership doesn’t want to populate the staff with people they like or feel comfortable with. Major difference between us and the Steelers, our cousins in stability.
Wilson was terrible  
WillVAB : 11/3/2017 8:31 pm : link
He wasn’t on pace for some hall of fame career that got derailed by injury. This is a guy who got benched in the Dallas game for fumbling a ton with shitty vision as a runner. Shitty in pass pro and a mediocre receiver at best.

He was fast and that’s pretty much it — used his speed to inflate his numbers by beating up on the dredges of the ACC at VT.
RE: First you should get a player in round 1  
santacruzom : 11/3/2017 10:33 pm : link
In comment 13674710 joeinpa said:
Quote:
That s agiven.



And yet it's far from a given. If half the first round picks in a draft wind up being very good pros at their position, that's probably an unusually good year.
RE: Wilson was terrible  
santacruzom : 11/3/2017 10:33 pm : link
In comment 13674768 WillVAB said:
Quote:
He wasn’t on pace for some hall of fame career that got derailed by injury. This is a guy who got benched in the Dallas game for fumbling a ton with shitty vision as a runner. Shitty in pass pro and a mediocre receiver at best.

He was fast and that’s pretty much it — used his speed to inflate his numbers by beating up on the dredges of the ACC at VT.


Fumbling a ton? I thought he just fumbled on his first carry, a la Kareem Hunt.
RE: First you should get a player in round 1  
jcn56 : 11/3/2017 10:55 pm : link
In comment 13674710 joeinpa said:
Quote:
That s agiven.

Secondly, two first round picks, top 10 picks, start on the offensive line, how s that working out.

Thirdly, the lack of draft choices that sign a second contract for the Giants is startling.

Reese hasn t been bad in the first round, but as of late, he hasn t been great.

According to Gruden, Giants were only team in NFL who saw Flowers as a lefts tackle. That s a revealing fact.


And yet - in the first press conference after he was drafted, Reese initially said 'guard or tackle' until Coughlin narrowed it down to 'tackle'

Quote:
While Reese said Flowers could play either guard or tackle, Coach Tom Coughlin spoke to reporters after Reese did and said unequivocally that Flowers was a tackle. Flowers played on the left and the right sides at Miami, although he spent the last two seasons at left tackle, the most prominent position on the line because it protects the blind side of a right-handed quarterback like Manning.




https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/sports/football/giants-draft-ereck-flowers-not-the-offensive-lineman-they-wanted.html - ( New Window )
Reese  
Dragon : 11/3/2017 11:44 pm : link
Is the GM not the HC I can give you the best talent in the world to work with but it’s the HC job to develope that talent our staff sucks at developing talent. Our injury history of picks is also a killer hard to become good players if always hurt.
RE: RE: Wilson was terrible  
WillVAB : 11/4/2017 12:05 am : link
In comment 13674835 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 13674768 WillVAB said:


Quote:


He wasn’t on pace for some hall of fame career that got derailed by injury. This is a guy who got benched in the Dallas game for fumbling a ton with shitty vision as a runner. Shitty in pass pro and a mediocre receiver at best.

He was fast and that’s pretty much it — used his speed to inflate his numbers by beating up on the dredges of the ACC at VT.



Fumbling a ton? I thought he just fumbled on his first carry, a la Kareem Hunt.


He fumbled more than once.

David Wilson had 1 100 yard rushing game in two seasons. He wasn’t some budding star that suffered a tragic injury. He was a rotational back who could barely crack the lineup because of his deficiencies as a player.
"In 2 years"  
KWALL2 : 11/4/2017 12:23 am : link
A 100 yard game. Only one in 2 years!

You think you're making a good point there do you?

It only exposes you as a bigger fool.
.  
arcarsenal : 11/4/2017 3:12 am : link
David Wilson was a very talented player who, if utilized properly, could have been very valuable.

Look at Jerick McKinnon since Dalvin Cook went down.

Wilson could have easily been that.
Memories are short...  
Jimmy Googs : 11/4/2017 8:33 am : link
David Wilson struggled from the get go. Ball security and pass protection issues never gave the coaches confidence in him. He was not a good RB or turning into one.

He was a nice KR though, but lets not go overboard on his future doing anything else...
RE:  
WillVAB : 11/4/2017 9:22 am : link
In comment 13674857 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
A 100 yard game. Only one in 2 years!

You think you're making a good point there do you?

It only exposes you as a bigger fool.


Yeah ok. Keep acting like he’s the one who got away because he ran a fast 40.

Guy was a shitty RB, period.
Giants have not done well when their targeted pick gets taken  
Ivan15 : 11/4/2017 9:52 am : link
Unfortunately, that’s what usually happens in the draft.

Wilson, had he not been injured, still shouldn’t have been a Round 1 pick. He never would have been an every down back.
Wilson was given ten or more rushing attempts  
eclipz928 : 11/4/2017 9:56 am : link
in just 5 games for his entire career. In that context, the fact that he managed one 100-yard rushing game is impressive.

His story is that he fumbled the ball on the first series of his first ever game, and Tom Coughlin overreacted and essentially blacklisted him for an entire season.

115 total carries over 21 games with the Giants - a 1st round draft pick should have been given more opportunities than this.
RE: Some of the JR supporters are trying to make all kinds to excuses..  
Jersey55 : 11/4/2017 11:11 am : link
In comment 13674548 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
There have been numbers shared right here on BBI that show JR is the bottom 5 in drafting after 2nd round.. yet they don't read those and analyze them.. they just repeat the same thing.. all teams have failed draft picks..

Any how how is this number:
40-48 since the last superbowl.. Talent is as much to blame if not more than coaching in that record.. Also its acceptable to have that record if you had QB problems.. JR was handed a Franchise QB in his prime.. to have that record with a HoF QB means you have screwed things up.. Please let me know what your argument is here?


people who keep supporting Reese should just take a look at the star of the O line for the past bunch of years, its has sucked for far too long and nothing has been done to fix it and that is the yardstick by which Reese should be measured.
There's always been an excuse for Jerry  
ghost718 : 11/4/2017 11:27 am : link
"Good in the first round" is likely to be the last.

I don't think we'll be moving on to something like "How many of his picks made the practice squad".
By the end of his rookie year  
KWALL2 : 11/4/2017 12:45 pm : link
He showed plenty.

He was 21. Super explosive.

He averaged 5ypc his rookie year. He didn't play more because he needed some work on a few things and we had Bradshaw. But to say he didn't show anything is simply wrong.

Somebody mentioned McKinnon. Wilson was very similar.

He would have been a player.

You want to knock Reese? That's fine but using Wilson as part of that argument makes you look like a fool. Carry on.
Wilson  
WillVAB : 11/4/2017 1:40 pm : link
Had a 146 yards and 2 catches in year 2 up to the neck injury in week 5. He was in a platoon situation with the other scrub draft picks — Andre Brown and Darell Scott. The entire backfield was trash.

Comparing Wilson to McKinnon is insane. McKinnon has more production in 2-3 games than Wilson had his entire career.
Why?  
arniefez : 11/4/2017 1:44 pm : link
Because they're comparing it to the other 6 rounds and compared to the other 6 rounds his 1st rounds look good.
Hahaha  
KWALL2 : 11/4/2017 2:47 pm : link
Write the guy off after 1.3 years. Complete horsehit.

If you didn't see talent then your blind or stupid.

He was very talented.

And just because somebody had more production it doesn't mean it can't compare a the players and their style. That's another brilliant point.
RE: Hahaha  
WillVAB : 11/4/2017 3:16 pm : link
In comment 13675160 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Write the guy off after 1.3 years. Complete horsehit.

If you didn't see talent then your blind or stupid.

He was very talented.

And just because somebody had more production it doesn't mean it can't compare a the players and their style. That's another brilliant point.


Just because your panties get wet over track stars doesn’t mean they’re good football players.
2012 we need OL-These are Reese picks  
Paulie Walnuts : 11/4/2017 4:00 pm : link
BOOM

First Round. No. 32, David Wilson, RB, Virginia Tech.
Second Round. No. 63, Rueben Randle, WR, LSU.
Third Round. No. 94, Jayron Hosley, CB, Virginia Tech.
Fourth Round. No. 127, Adrien Robinson, TE, Cincinnati.
Sixth Round. No. 201, Matt Mccants, OT, UAB.
Seventh Round. No.
2014 article Giants Drafts  
Paulie Walnuts : 11/4/2017 4:05 pm : link
and dont for get 4th rd pick of Nassib, when we could have gotten a OC or guard


Its Reese - ( New Window )
RE: 2012 we need OL-These are Reese picks  
eclipz928 : 11/4/2017 4:59 pm : link
In comment 13675190 Paulie Walnuts said:
Quote:
BOOM

First Round. No. 32, David Wilson, RB, Virginia Tech.
Second Round. No. 63, Rueben Randle, WR, LSU.
Third Round. No. 94, Jayron Hosley, CB, Virginia Tech.
Fourth Round. No. 127, Adrien Robinson, TE, Cincinnati.
Sixth Round. No. 201, Matt Mccants, OT, UAB.
Seventh Round. No.

Giants drafted two tackles back-to-back after Robinson in 2012 . . . odd omission.
RE: 2014 article Giants Drafts  
eclipz928 : 11/4/2017 5:13 pm : link
In comment 13675193 Paulie Walnuts said:
Quote:
and dont for get 4th rd pick of Nassib, when we could have gotten a OC or guard
Its Reese - ( New Window )

Only 3 Centers were drafted after the Giants took Nassib in 2013 - the one drafted most immediately after him was briefly on the team after being signed by the Giants over the summer. The other two are not currently starters in the NFL.
RE: 2014 article Giants Drafts  
BigBlueShock : 11/4/2017 5:41 pm : link
In comment 13675193 Paulie Walnuts said:
Quote:
and dont for get 4th rd pick of Nassib, when we could have gotten a OC or guard
Its Reese - ( New Window )

Here’s a list for you to chew on of the centers and guards taken after the Nassib pick in 2013:

Centers:
Khaled Holmes
Eric Kush
Ryan Jensen
TJ Johnson

Guards:
Barrett Jones
Earl Watford
Tanner Hawkinson
Jeff Baca
Travis Bond
Ryan Seymour
Eric Herman (Giants)

Those are the guys. So you tell me. Which stud did they miss out on? Those are all absolute scrubs that are mostly out of the league.



RE: Wilson  
santacruzom : 11/4/2017 8:04 pm : link
In comment 13675120 WillVAB said:
Quote:

Comparing Wilson to McKinnon is insane. McKinnon has more production in 2-3 games than Wilson had his entire career.


Sure, but after year 2 of McKinnon's career the Vikings fan version of you was surely saying he sucked.
RE: these arguments about Reese's  
djm : 11/4/2017 9:20 pm : link
In comment 13674528 Enzo said:
Quote:
draft record have been done a million times. It's been clear for a quite a while that he hasn't been doing a good job. The good news is that you no longer have to waste time arguing over the Ramses Bardens and Clint Sintims of the world....you just have to point to the team's record the last few years and the clown he hired to coach the team.


Did Reese hire mcadoo? I question this. Matter of fact I'd say he didn't if I had to bet.
Santa  
KWALL2 : 11/4/2017 11:29 pm : link
Wilson ran like McKinnon. That's a legit comp for Wilson.

RE: Wilson was given ten or more rushing attempts  
markky : 11/5/2017 10:18 am : link
In comment 13674983 eclipz928 said:
Quote:
in just 5 games for his entire career. In that context, the fact that he managed one 100-yard rushing game is impressive.

His story is that he fumbled the ball on the first series of his first ever game, and Tom Coughlin overreacted and essentially blacklisted him for an entire season.

115 total carries over 21 games with the Giants - a 1st round draft pick should have been given more opportunities than this.


i thought the benching was ridiculous. who knows what Tom saw in practice but unless he was a complete butter fingers then Tom sabotages a first rounder
RE: Wilson  
arcarsenal : 11/5/2017 12:28 pm : link
In comment 13675120 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Had a 146 yards and 2 catches in year 2 up to the neck injury in week 5. He was in a platoon situation with the other scrub draft picks — Andre Brown and Darell Scott. The entire backfield was trash.

Comparing Wilson to McKinnon is insane. McKinnon has more production in 2-3 games than Wilson had his entire career.


I'm the one who brought up McKinnon - it's not insane. They're similar players and McKinnon didn't appear to be anything more than average until he got another opportunity this year. He ran for 3.4 yards a clip last year. Plenty of Vikings fans were likely saying the same thing about him that people said about Wilson... great athlete, not a great RB.

Also remember that Wilson played in Gilbride's offense.

Not that McAdoo's offense would necessarily have been the right one for him - but a system that was more tailored to getting him in open space could have allowed him to thrive.

Wilson was never going to be a guy you lined up in power formations and ran straight ahead with 20 times a game.
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