He is missing wide open receivers. His pocket awareness with feeling pressure keeps getting worse and he fumbled twice, losing one of them. That throw into double coverage looks like a rookie mistake.
I hate to admit this, but Eli Manning is part of the problem of why this offense is so atrocious.
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I said you can’t throw a Josh Rosen behind this line right now. He will end up being a bust. Why? Because he’ll get his ass kicked just like Eli. Use this draft to fix the lines. Let Eli hold the spot for another year or two. Keep groomingWebb for the spot. Its a more seamless transition.
Gotcha. But you need a new QB, too. You could still draft a QB and have Eli behind the bad OLine until the OLine is fixed. According to draft experts, there are no great OT in this year's draft. So, you might as well get your QB when you're picking this high.
McGlinchey from ND is the one franchise offensive tackle available
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I said you can’t throw a Josh Rosen behind this line right now. He will end up being a bust. Why? Because he’ll get his ass kicked just like Eli. Use this draft to fix the lines. Let Eli hold the spot for another year or two. Keep groomingWebb for the spot. Its a more seamless transition.
Gotcha. But you need a new QB, too. You could still draft a QB and have Eli behind the bad OLine until the OLine is fixed. According to draft experts, there are no great OT in this year's draft. So, you might as well get your QB when you're picking this high.
Here’s what I do. If I’m in top 5, I move down and take Nelson and then with my two second round picks, I find myself a center and a linebacker that can run and make plays. Toss in a vet offensive tackle and away we go. But like arc said, a complete philosophy change is needed. First.
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In comment 13677203 PetesHereNow said:
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I said you can’t throw a Josh Rosen behind this line right now. He will end up being a bust. Why? Because he’ll get his ass kicked just like Eli. Use this draft to fix the lines. Let Eli hold the spot for another year or two. Keep groomingWebb for the spot. Its a more seamless transition.
Gotcha. But you need a new QB, too. You could still draft a QB and have Eli behind the bad OLine until the OLine is fixed. According to draft experts, there are no great OT in this year's draft. So, you might as well get your QB when you're picking this high.
Here’s what I do. If I’m in top 5, I move down and take Nelson and then with my two second round picks, I find myself a center and a linebacker that can run and make plays. Toss in a vet offensive tackle and away we go. But like arc said, a complete philosophy change is needed. First.
I think it's just time for a change. A 37 year old QB isn't getting any younger. I'm done with 'Lets win 1 more before Eli retires' stuff. It's not about that anymore. It has to be about the long term future of this franchise, not the next couple years.
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In comment 13677206 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 13677203 PetesHereNow said:
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I said you can’t throw a Josh Rosen behind this line right now. He will end up being a bust. Why? Because he’ll get his ass kicked just like Eli. Use this draft to fix the lines. Let Eli hold the spot for another year or two. Keep groomingWebb for the spot. Its a more seamless transition.
Gotcha. But you need a new QB, too. You could still draft a QB and have Eli behind the bad OLine until the OLine is fixed. According to draft experts, there are no great OT in this year's draft. So, you might as well get your QB when you're picking this high.
Here’s what I do. If I’m in top 5, I move down and take Nelson and then with my two second round picks, I find myself a center and a linebacker that can run and make plays. Toss in a vet offensive tackle and away we go. But like arc said, a complete philosophy change is needed. First.
I think it's just time for a change. A 37 year old QB isn't getting any younger. I'm done with 'Lets win 1 more before Eli retires' stuff. It's not about that anymore. It has to be about the long term future of this franchise, not the next couple years.
I’m not trying to win one more before Eli retires. I’m trying to give the next quarterback a chance at success. Shoehorning a Josh Rosen as the pick because he might fit the mold as the next franchise quarterback isn’t the answer. Because if you don’t fix the line and the other things, a young quarterback is not going to handle the NY media like Eli does. In fact, a kid like Rosen might make this powder keg even worse. Change the philosophy. Fix the coaching staff. Get a staff that doesn’t speak in terms like complimentary football and the Duke.
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In comment 13677223 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13677206 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 13677203 PetesHereNow said:
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I said you can’t throw a Josh Rosen behind this line right now. He will end up being a bust. Why? Because he’ll get his ass kicked just like Eli. Use this draft to fix the lines. Let Eli hold the spot for another year or two. Keep groomingWebb for the spot. Its a more seamless transition.
Gotcha. But you need a new QB, too. You could still draft a QB and have Eli behind the bad OLine until the OLine is fixed. According to draft experts, there are no great OT in this year's draft. So, you might as well get your QB when you're picking this high.
Here’s what I do. If I’m in top 5, I move down and take Nelson and then with my two second round picks, I find myself a center and a linebacker that can run and make plays. Toss in a vet offensive tackle and away we go. But like arc said, a complete philosophy change is needed. First.
I think it's just time for a change. A 37 year old QB isn't getting any younger. I'm done with 'Lets win 1 more before Eli retires' stuff. It's not about that anymore. It has to be about the long term future of this franchise, not the next couple years.
I’m not trying to win one more before Eli retires. I’m trying to give the next quarterback a chance at success. Shoehorning a Josh Rosen as the pick because he might fit the mold as the next franchise quarterback isn’t the answer. Because if you don’t fix the line and the other things, a young quarterback is not going to handle the NY media like Eli does. In fact, a kid like Rosen might make this powder keg even worse. Change the philosophy. Fix the coaching staff. Get a staff that doesn’t speak in terms like complimentary football and the Duke.
They can get a new front office and coaching staff. And that new staff is probably going to want a QB of their own right away. It'd be impossible to fix an entire OLine in 1 year anyway. Just look at Reese.
We're past "fix the OL" at this point. New GM, new coach, revamped scouting department. We need to shift our priorities and resources away from building the best possible team next year to building the best possible team for the next 5-10 years. That's what a lot of us mean by a rebuild. We should be picking in the Top 5, there's about 5-6 QBs in play for the top two rounds right now, a couple of those guys will be in play at our unusually high pick. That's where our focus should be.
We have rushed for over 100 yards in 3 of our last 4 games.
The problem is that we can't throw the ball now. Some of that is because we can't pass protect - some is because we lost our best 2 WR's and only got our 3rd back this week. Some is because Eli hasn't played well.
That, and the defense has struggled way more than it was supposed to.
As much as the OL has been a target - I think this team could have competed with a Flowers-Jerry-Jones-Fluker-Pugh line if we had been willing to use more heavy formations and commit more to running the ball early in the year.
The philosophy earlier in the year was awful and we had the wrong players playing.
In a non trade down scenario you take McGlinchey or Nelson and go right back to the OL in the 2nd or 3rd round.
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Pretty sure Pugh and Flowers can be pieces somewhere in the five starters. Nelson and a draft pick take the other two spots. Sign some vet linemen. It can be improved. Done? Maybe not completely. But it’s be steps in the right direction.
We're past "fix the OL" at this point. New GM, new coach, revamped scouting department. We need to shift our priorities and resources away from building the best possible team next year to building the best possible team for the next 5-10 years. That's what a lot of us mean by a rebuild. We should be picking in the Top 5, there's about 5-6 QBs in play for the top two rounds right now, a couple of those guys will be in play at our unusually high pick. That's where our focus should be.
why is Webb automatically overlooked as a possible solution though? I think the draft should be used to procure the 2018-2028 version of Chris Snee and Kareem McKenzie
We have rushed for over 100 yards in 3 of our last 4 games.
The problem is that we can't throw the ball now. Some of that is because we can't pass protect - some is because we lost our best 2 WR's and only got our 3rd back this week. Some is because Eli hasn't played well.
That, and the defense has struggled way more than it was supposed to.
As much as the OL has been a target - I think this team could have competed with a Flowers-Jerry-Jones-Fluker-Pugh line if we had been willing to use more heavy formations and commit more to running the ball early in the year.
The philosophy earlier in the year was awful and we had the wrong players playing.
When you have linemen like Jerry and Fluker, you know there’s going to be a missed assignment at some point though. Jerry isn’t stout enough in the run game and Fluker is doomed if he doesn’t get his hands on the rusher.
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In comment 13677311 PetesHereNow said:
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Pretty sure Pugh and Flowers can be pieces somewhere in the five starters. Nelson and a draft pick take the other two spots. Sign some vet linemen. It can be improved. Done? Maybe not completely. But it’s be steps in the right direction.
We're past "fix the OL" at this point. New GM, new coach, revamped scouting department. We need to shift our priorities and resources away from building the best possible team next year to building the best possible team for the next 5-10 years. That's what a lot of us mean by a rebuild. We should be picking in the Top 5, there's about 5-6 QBs in play for the top two rounds right now, a couple of those guys will be in play at our unusually high pick. That's where our focus should be.
why is Webb automatically overlooked as a possible solution though? I think the draft should be used to procure the 2018-2028 version of Chris Snee and Kareem McKenzie
I never said he wasn't. But Webb's presence does not preclude them from taking a QB high, not at all. In fact, I kind of like the idea of staggered cluster draft at that spot. It worked for the skins with Griffin and Cousins.
Look at Payton's last year - HE WAS DONE physically and if Von Miller didn't play like superman that game - Denver does not win.
Payton did enough for his team not to lose. Eli could certainly do that and a bit more.
To declare that "Eli is done" ... how could you tell? That statement implies that a 1-7 record is Eli's fault? Seriously?
True and I’d be alright with that. I just don’t want to say our first round pick should be definitely a QB, and then you throw him into this shit show and possibly ruin a number 1 pick. If you have to pick the QB, either fix the line too or keep throwing Eli to the wolves.
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In comment 13677331 AcesUp said:
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In comment 13677311 PetesHereNow said:
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Pretty sure Pugh and Flowers can be pieces somewhere in the five starters. Nelson and a draft pick take the other two spots. Sign some vet linemen. It can be improved. Done? Maybe not completely. But it’s be steps in the right direction.
We're past "fix the OL" at this point. New GM, new coach, revamped scouting department. We need to shift our priorities and resources away from building the best possible team next year to building the best possible team for the next 5-10 years. That's what a lot of us mean by a rebuild. We should be picking in the Top 5, there's about 5-6 QBs in play for the top two rounds right now, a couple of those guys will be in play at our unusually high pick. That's where our focus should be.
why is Webb automatically overlooked as a possible solution though? I think the draft should be used to procure the 2018-2028 version of Chris Snee and Kareem McKenzie
I never said he wasn't. But Webb's presence does not preclude them from taking a QB high, not at all. In fact, I kind of like the idea of staggered cluster draft at that spot. It worked for the skins with Griffin and Cousins.
I don’t think it worked for the Skins. RG3 was used incorrectly and Cousins does not look like the long term answer there, and they wasted many premium picks trying to fix that.
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The OL has actually been passable as far as the run game has gone in recent weeks.
We have rushed for over 100 yards in 3 of our last 4 games.
The problem is that we can't throw the ball now. Some of that is because we can't pass protect - some is because we lost our best 2 WR's and only got our 3rd back this week. Some is because Eli hasn't played well.
That, and the defense has struggled way more than it was supposed to.
As much as the OL has been a target - I think this team could have competed with a Flowers-Jerry-Jones-Fluker-Pugh line if we had been willing to use more heavy formations and commit more to running the ball early in the year.
The philosophy earlier in the year was awful and we had the wrong players playing.
When you have linemen like Jerry and Fluker, you know there’s going to be a missed assignment at some point though. Jerry isn’t stout enough in the run game and Fluker is doomed if he doesn’t get his hands on the rusher.
To be clear, I think John Jerry sucks. Fluker has his warts too.
Point is - we actually have run the football a bit in recent weeks which is something we couldn't do at all earlier in the year.
It just seems obvious that this staff mis-identified what our best OL configuration was this summer. A guy like Bobby Hart should never have been handed a starting OT job.
To compound things - we ran close to zero heavy TE sets earlier in the season.
Paul Perkins was also given the starting RB job which didn't look deserved at all. The other guys only got a chance because he got hurt. Ditto Hart.
We obviously need OL help - but some of the issues could have been alleviated with better recognition of the strengths of the players we had and playcalling.
Seeing Manning at this stage in his career, without the much needed protection he should be given is disrespectful to him as a player.
I feel bad for Eli, but with Reese as his GM, he will never get the protection he needs.
FIRE REESE NOW!
Right. He's the least of our worries. The single most important position in all of sports is leading the shittiest offense in our lifetime and he's the least of our worries? Fascinating.
Eli is not playing well. It's as clear as day. He's not terrible. Not by any stretch but he's not good either. He's a jag. He's along for the ride. And the ride stinks.
The "Let's win 1 more before Eli retires" mantra has been used as an organizational mantra in a lot of ways for a number of their personnel decisions and it has backfired spectacularly.
All I'm saying is we don't have a professional offense right now. Not the roster, not the playbook, not the coach. Nothing about our offense is good.
If you want to pin that all on one guy, go ahead. I don't agree, but I'm also done wasting my time arguing about it.
Here's the deal. Eli will be the starting QB for the Giants next year. He's not getting bench, Webb is likely not the future, and Eli, barring catastrophic injury, WILL BE THE STARTING QB OF THE NEW YORK GIANTS WEEK ONE OF 2018.
It's a lock.
It's far from a lock. And if he is, it may very likely be in the 2004 Kurt Warner role.
This line of thinking puzzles me. It's not a punitive response to wonder if Eli is done (IMO); rather, it's a valid question about whether a QB in his late 30s is in physical decline. So why would anyone wish for Eli's successor(s) to be bad in order to somehow validate Eli's career?
What a strange way to approach being a fan.
It's a causal relationship though. A good OL can hide a QB's deficiencies, see Prescott, Dak.
A bad OL will cripple your team. Fix the line, and you can win at quarterback with a good running game and a good defense.
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I think it's just time for a change. A 37 year old QB isn't getting any younger. I'm done with 'Lets win 1 more before Eli retires' stuff. It's not about that anymore. It has to be about the long term future of this franchise, not the next couple years.
The "Let's win 1 more before Eli retires" mantra has been used as an organizational mantra in a lot of ways for a number of their personnel decisions and it has backfired spectacularly.
Exactly. And some fans are using it because they are bigger fans of particular players than they are of the actual team. If Eli isn't done yet, he's not far from it. If we have a top 3 pick this year, which it's looking like we will more and more every week, you go for the QB, especially in a draft that is not filled with great offensive lineman.
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In comment 13677231 Dave in Hoboken said:
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I think it's just time for a change. A 37 year old QB isn't getting any younger. I'm done with 'Lets win 1 more before Eli retires' stuff. It's not about that anymore. It has to be about the long term future of this franchise, not the next couple years.
The "Let's win 1 more before Eli retires" mantra has been used as an organizational mantra in a lot of ways for a number of their personnel decisions and it has backfired spectacularly.
Exactly. And some fans are using it because they are bigger fans of particular players than they are of the actual team. If Eli isn't done yet, he's not far from it. If we have a top 3 pick this year, which it's looking like we will more and more every week, you go for the QB, especially in a draft that is not filled with great offensive lineman.
There are just as many questions about the QBs in this draft as there are about the OL. Quite frankly, I don’t trust the draftniks or scouts or whomever when it comes to evaluating the OL coming out. A few years ago the draft was supposed to be loaded at OL with guys like Greg Robinson as can’t miss, and most turned out to be busts. Last year the class was supposed to suck, and guys like Cam Robinson and Ramcyk are playing integral roles in their team’s success.
There’s always a “franchise qb” available every draft ever year when you’re picking at the top of the draft. Doesn’t mean there’s actually a franchise qb there waiting.
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In comment 13677732 BigBlueinChicago said:
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In comment 13677231 Dave in Hoboken said:
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I think it's just time for a change. A 37 year old QB isn't getting any younger. I'm done with 'Lets win 1 more before Eli retires' stuff. It's not about that anymore. It has to be about the long term future of this franchise, not the next couple years.
The "Let's win 1 more before Eli retires" mantra has been used as an organizational mantra in a lot of ways for a number of their personnel decisions and it has backfired spectacularly.
Exactly. And some fans are using it because they are bigger fans of particular players than they are of the actual team. If Eli isn't done yet, he's not far from it. If we have a top 3 pick this year, which it's looking like we will more and more every week, you go for the QB, especially in a draft that is not filled with great offensive lineman.
There are just as many questions about the QBs in this draft as there are about the OL. Quite frankly, I don’t trust the draftniks or scouts or whomever when it comes to evaluating the OL coming out. A few years ago the draft was supposed to be loaded at OL with guys like Greg Robinson as can’t miss, and most turned out to be busts. Last year the class was supposed to suck, and guys like Cam Robinson and Ramcyk are playing integral roles in their team’s success.
There’s always a “franchise qb” available every draft ever year when you’re picking at the top of the draft. Doesn’t mean there’s actually a franchise qb there waiting.
Same can be said for top tier OL, especially this year.
What kind of return are the Packers getting on Rodgers cap number now? Rodgers turns 35 next year — does he have osteoporosis at his age and should the Packers look for a QB too?
If we had a good defense, a decent running game, and an offensive line, I would wholeheartedly agree with you. But, when your starting offense includes guys like Roger Lewis, John Jerry, and Bobby Hart, you have to give the guy with HOF (near HOF, whichever) a little bit of slack. Yes, I realize he's 37 years old, but unlike his brother, he has not yet suffered a debilitating neck injury. Should we think about life after Eli? Sure. Should we force a number 1 pick on a QB just because he is a QB? No.
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I would clarify the point by saying ‘Eli + his cap number’ is 100% an obvious disadvantage to the current and future team success. When you’ve got a top 5 salary cap number you’d better be Rodgers or Brady. We are getting Josh McCown type production for that huge cap number. Can’t really deny any of the above.
What kind of return are the Packers getting on Rodgers cap number now? Rodgers turns 35 next year — does he have osteoporosis at his age and should the Packers look for a QB too?
Rodgers is one of the best QB's of all time. Eli Manning is not. And if when Rodgers comes back he struggles mightily for the next couple of years in a row; then yeah; they'll be really concerned in GB..
To me, you get rid of Reese, McAdoo, and the rest of the staff and you get vintage Manning...assuming the new regime can manage to bring in 3 or 4 new OL to start.
You can still absolutely win with Eli, but a new football administration will not want to start with a 37 year QB.
He had sufficient time to throw, deep guys open, guys open with some easy touch passes and others on underneath crossing routes. This on top of a decent running game in the first half.
He missed way too many throws AND didn't take care of the ball.
the fact of the matter is while our OL isn't good - but many OL aren't great In NFL now the difference is these teams have mobile QBs that can extend plays and avoid sacks
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In comment 13678078 BlueManFu said:
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I would clarify the point by saying ‘Eli + his cap number’ is 100% an obvious disadvantage to the current and future team success. When you’ve got a top 5 salary cap number you’d better be Rodgers or Brady. We are getting Josh McCown type production for that huge cap number. Can’t really deny any of the above.
What kind of return are the Packers getting on Rodgers cap number now? Rodgers turns 35 next year — does he have osteoporosis at his age and should the Packers look for a QB too?
Rodgers is one of the best QB's of all time. Eli Manning is not. And if when Rodgers comes back he struggles mightily for the next couple of years in a row; then yeah; they'll be really concerned in GB..
Ok then don’t hide your argument behind Eli’s age. Just say you don’t think Eli is any good and you think the Giants should move on.
Realistically, the Packers should be more worried than the Giants re: the qb position — Rogers has actually gotten hurt a decent amount, he’s getting older, and his style of play doesn’t age well.
He had sufficient time to throw, deep guys open, guys open with some easy touch passes and others on underneath crossing routes. This on top of a decent running game in the first half.
He missed way too many throws AND didn't take care of the ball.
I'm not sure you understand team chemistry. A qb's timing with his targets are vital, also take into account that Macs offense seems to be terrible all the way around.
Mac did have success as OC, but keep these few things in mind, teams may have adjusted, and coughlin still had his offense mixed into the offense. When coughlin left there is a very good chance Mac got rid of the coughlin part of the offense, which would explain why the offense suddenly went to crap.
Manning has shown he can make the throws, he didn't just suddenly lose it, but right now he's severely handicapped. Thanks is team isn't just a bad team, it's arguably a bad team without effort which is much worse
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is in denial.
He had sufficient time to throw, deep guys open, guys open with some easy touch passes and others on underneath crossing routes. This on top of a decent running game in the first half.
He missed way too many throws AND didn't take care of the ball.
I'm not sure you understand team chemistry. A qb's timing with his targets are vital, also take into account that Macs offense seems to be terrible all the way around.
Mac did have success as OC, but keep these few things in mind, teams may have adjusted, and coughlin still had his offense mixed into the offense. When coughlin left there is a very good chance Mac got rid of the coughlin part of the offense, which would explain why the offense suddenly went to crap.
Manning has shown he can make the throws, he didn't just suddenly lose it, but right now he's severely handicapped. Thanks is team isn't just a bad team, it's arguably a bad team without effort which is much worse
While not extreme, you are in more denial than you are not.
And nobody said Eli suddenly lost it, you just missed the signs for the past several years...
Like poor marksmen, you keep missing the target. You aren't fixing anything unless you fix the organization. The front office sucks and the interfering owners are serial bunglers. Wake the fuck up already.
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In comment 13678306 Jimmy Googs said:
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is in denial.
He had sufficient time to throw, deep guys open, guys open with some easy touch passes and others on underneath crossing routes. This on top of a decent running game in the first half.
He missed way too many throws AND didn't take care of the ball.
I'm not sure you understand team chemistry. A qb's timing with his targets are vital, also take into account that Macs offense seems to be terrible all the way around.
Mac did have success as OC, but keep these few things in mind, teams may have adjusted, and coughlin still had his offense mixed into the offense. When coughlin left there is a very good chance Mac got rid of the coughlin part of the offense, which would explain why the offense suddenly went to crap.
Manning has shown he can make the throws, he didn't just suddenly lose it, but right now he's severely handicapped. Thanks is team isn't just a bad team, it's arguably a bad team without effort which is much worse
While not extreme, you are in more denial than you are not.
And nobody said Eli suddenly lost it, you just missed the signs for the past several years...
I don't agree. I laid out a few possible reasons above, but there are more than just those. We'll agree we don't see it the same, no problem.
Those days are done as he is a negative one now...
what you say here happens to all QBs and right now its happening to Eli, most good QBs end up on the scrap heap because they stayed around too long and Eli is ding that right now because the money is so good..
But the real question is whether you want to do a major rebuild around a 37 year old QB. I just don't see that as an intelligent approach when you have the opportunity to possibly draft your next franchise QB.
He is not the only problem, but he is not part of the solution as well. Look at how often he fumbles as well,
been dong that his whole career too. It's amazing how people tend to neglect that aspect of his game.
They need to draft a QB, let Eli play one more year,
and move on.
He can finish his career elsewhere, if he wants to
keep playing.
You can't have him on the books for about 40 Mill. the next two years, makes no sense.
this team has given up. its all due to the coach this new offense he implemented is just terrible, they cant run they ball, they dont run the ball when they can and they only thwo it 5 yards the qb is not the problem, its the coach