I think he should be relieved of his duties today and JR at the end of the year. Dave Gettleman and Josh Mcdaniels. Draft a qb number 1(hopefully Rosen) and let Eli play out his last year next year before the kid takes over
I know some of you support the team no matter what. That's admirable. I know the tickets have already been paid for. But if we want changes, make a statement. Nobody but Chiefs fans should be at our next home game.
I think he should be relieved of his duties today and JR at the end of the year. Dave Gettleman and Josh Mcdaniels. Draft a qb number 1(hopefully Rosen) and let Eli play out his last year next year before the kid takes over
OK, C but for God's sakes - absolutely NOT to hire a Giants retread in the FO and a Patriots coordinator.
clean house. McAdoo was brought back as the head coach because the Giants believed it would be in the best interest of Eli not to bring another offensive system on him as he gets ready to retire. They wanted to win one more championship with him. So they decided to push Coughlin out but still kind of keep continuity at the same time.
Last year the offense was a joke, but was masked by the defense not blowing games. The Dallas game and the Detroit game showed the offense never got better, the defense got exposed, and the wheels came off. To me, there is no reason to keep McAdoo around anymore because he didn't deliver the main reason why he was here, to win a title with Eli. And once you get that Super Bowl under your belt, you earn the respect that he's tried to assume he just has. And the team has tuned him out.
As I said yesterday, McAdoo has become a combination of Handley's poor handling of the press with Greg Schiano's hard ass attitude despite not really gaining that respect of the team. Simply put, McAdoo is not ready to be a head coach.
And Reese needs to go because the roster put together has been poor since 2012. The Giants have really had the talent of a 4-5 win team the past few years. Coughlin coaxed a couple more wins out of them, and was helped by playing some bad teams along with way with bad QBs. Essentially they are the 0-6 team of 2013, but don't get the fun of playing a bunch of bad QBs in a row to hide the stink.
With such a high pick coming, and Eli at the end, it's time to start it all over.
The bigger question to me, does Mara undo the George Young org structure and bring in a head coach with has control of personnel too. To me, that's the level of organizational change we should be talking about.
C. Root hard for losses. Go enjoy my college team, hurricanes who have picked a good year to become good again. Focus on horse racing. Anything but the Giants. If they retain either of the 2 it will sorely test my fandom. There are plenty of ways to beat myself up. Rooting for morons shouldn’t be one of them
clean house. McAdoo was brought back as the head coach because the Giants believed it would be in the best interest of Eli not to bring another offensive system on him as he gets ready to retire. They wanted to win one more championship with him. So they decided to push Coughlin out but still kind of keep continuity at the same time.
Last year the offense was a joke, but was masked by the defense not blowing games. The Dallas game and the Detroit game showed the offense never got better, the defense got exposed, and the wheels came off. To me, there is no reason to keep McAdoo around anymore because he didn't deliver the main reason why he was here, to win a title with Eli. And once you get that Super Bowl under your belt, you earn the respect that he's tried to assume he just has. And the team has tuned him out.
As I said yesterday, McAdoo has become a combination of Handley's poor handling of the press with Greg Schiano's hard ass attitude despite not really gaining that respect of the team. Simply put, McAdoo is not ready to be a head coach.
And Reese needs to go because the roster put together has been poor since 2012. The Giants have really had the talent of a 4-5 win team the past few years. Coughlin coaxed a couple more wins out of them, and was helped by playing some bad teams along with way with bad QBs. Essentially they are the 0-6 team of 2013, but don't get the fun of playing a bunch of bad QBs in a row to hide the stink.
With such a high pick coming, and Eli at the end, it's time to start it all over.
The bigger question to me, does Mara undo the George Young org structure and bring in a head coach with has control of personnel too. To me, that's the level of organizational change we should be talking about.
Spot on post Matt. Might I add that a return to a power running game with a deep passing attack with in cuts, seems, post and corners will do wonders for Eli.
This team needs leadership on an off the field as well. I wish Eli would say something and stop being a good soldier.
Burn it down puts us in browns territory and perpetuates the G-men as the laughing stock of the NFC east for more than 1 or 2 seasons. Its not time to start over at QB when we don't think we have the next franchise QB. Just have some guys and maybe some picks.
I think it's funny that people still think Coughlin 'coaxed' Â
It's obvious now that this team has had no identity for some time - leading back to before Coughlin was dismissed. They didn't just chuck him out the door because they thought the problems were all on coaching.
It's not just a matter of bad personnel - it's personnel that doesn't fit into a coherent scheme, and that's been a problem going on 6 years now. That's on both the coaches and the FO.
That's why they need a clean sweep - but it's imperative that they clean house, and add a FO and coach (if they don't consolidate the power structure as Matt suggests) that are on the same page. One vision for the team, executed by two groups in unison.
If that doesn't happen, we're in for more of the same.
Ready to move on from Reese for sure. Though I was Reese supporter for a long time. Still want to give McAdoo a chance, but am quickly souring on him with this weeks loss. Liked McAdoo out of the gate. Maybe he was promoted too early. Easy to say that now with hindsight.
this team has become a laughingstock, im not even sure the owner has the stomach for a complete rebuild. Teams at crossroads like back when league made George Young our GM, imo
clean house. McAdoo was brought back as the head coach because the Giants believed it would be in the best interest of Eli not to bring another offensive system on him as he gets ready to retire. They wanted to win one more championship with him. So they decided to push Coughlin out but still kind of keep continuity at the same time.
Last year the offense was a joke, but was masked by the defense not blowing games. The Dallas game and the Detroit game showed the offense never got better, the defense got exposed, and the wheels came off. To me, there is no reason to keep McAdoo around anymore because he didn't deliver the main reason why he was here, to win a title with Eli. And once you get that Super Bowl under your belt, you earn the respect that he's tried to assume he just has. And the team has tuned him out.
As I said yesterday, McAdoo has become a combination of Handley's poor handling of the press with Greg Schiano's hard ass attitude despite not really gaining that respect of the team. Simply put, McAdoo is not ready to be a head coach.
And Reese needs to go because the roster put together has been poor since 2012. The Giants have really had the talent of a 4-5 win team the past few years. Coughlin coaxed a couple more wins out of them, and was helped by playing some bad teams along with way with bad QBs. Essentially they are the 0-6 team of 2013, but don't get the fun of playing a bunch of bad QBs in a row to hide the stink.
With such a high pick coming, and Eli at the end, it's time to start it all over.
The bigger question to me, does Mara undo the George Young org structure and bring in a head coach with has control of personnel too. To me, that's the level of organizational change we should be talking about.
I would add in the idiotic way he uses phrases and names for things that already have names, as if it is being some sort of visionary, as another way he loses credibility. Sure, it seems small but imagine you are a Veteran player and suddenly your coach is talking taking better care of the Duke. It sounds dumb and it becomes even more dumb when the team struggles. Heavy Handed is another one. That just comes off as a stupid. The more they struggle the more that will stand out.
It is like the small habit your significant other has that you don't really care for but because everything else is great it doesn't stand out as much. Then you hit some tough times or issues and suddenly that habit becomes irritating, aggravating and a source or scorn and ridicule. That is what I see with BM and his dumb ass way of naming things that don't need cute nicknames or catch phrases..
McAdoo is running this team like King Joffrey. He never takes responsibility. Its always someone else's fault. DRC and Jenkens complain ? Off with their heads! He micromanages, has no feel for the game, he has pissed off players that have no history of being malcontents and I believe he isn't getting along with his assistants. He inherited a pretty good offense, he has a good Defensive coordinator and good defensive personnel and there is no way, based on that, that this team should be 1 - 7 this year. Nor should they have had the horrible offense they showed last year.
I have mixed feelings about Reese. Based in the Giants record, he should go too, but I have trouble putting a finger on what he should have done instead or what will improve if he's replaced. Its easy to say that he drafted so and so who was a bust. Its harder to say who he should have drafted instead. Other than Matt Dodge I have a hard time thinking of a draft pick that looked bad right when he made it. He's been criticized with staying with over the hill players to long. The worst was David Diehl but that was a long time ago. Besides the Giants have been overly loyal to veterans for as long as I've been following them.
As far as Spags, I'd like to see what he can do either as an HC or working for a decent HC. He's already coached a Super Bowl defense and last year he coached probably the best defense in the NFL. This year he's had to deal with injuries, and offense that can't stay on the field, and I believe , interference from McAdoo. Ditto for Quinn.
If the Maras want to keep Eli, I think you need to keep Reese and Mac. Might be the worse thing, but it means you are not starting really starting over and blowing up the team. I do, however, fire just about every other coach. Spags is over rated, Sullivan was never that good as an OC and Quinn should have been let go years ago. I don't think this staff is Mac's staff. I think it is the Mara's staff.
If the new coaching staff succeeds, You may need to keep them both longer When it fails though you move on from them all
If the Maras decide to move on from Eli. I start this year and evaluate Webb. Fire everyone and go into a true rebuilding. This gives the New GM the opportunity to draft his QB, Hire his coach and have a staff built in his image.
If the Maras want to keep Eli, I think you need to keep Reese and Mac. Might be the worse thing, but it means you are not starting really starting over and blowing up the team. I do, however, fire just about every other coach. Spags is over rated, Sullivan was never that good as an OC and Quinn should have been let go years ago. I don't think this staff is Mac's staff. I think it is the Mara's staff.
If the new coaching staff succeeds, You may need to keep them both longer When it fails though you move on from them all
If the Maras decide to move on from Eli. I start this year and evaluate Webb. Fire everyone and go into a true rebuilding. This gives the New GM the opportunity to draft his QB, Hire his coach and have a staff built in his image.
I don't think you need to keep the current people in place. I think the ideal situation would be to completely overhaul both Staffs grab a QB early and let him sit and learn under Eli for a year with the new Coaching staff.
If the Maras want to keep Eli, I think you need to keep Reese and Mac. Might be the worse thing, but it means you are not starting really starting over and blowing up the team. I do, however, fire just about every other coach. Spags is over rated, Sullivan was never that good as an OC and Quinn should have been let go years ago. I don't think this staff is Mac's staff. I think it is the Mara's staff.
If the new coaching staff succeeds, You may need to keep them both longer When it fails though you move on from them all
If the Maras decide to move on from Eli. I start this year and evaluate Webb. Fire everyone and go into a true rebuilding. This gives the New GM the opportunity to draft his QB, Hire his coach and have a staff built in his image.
I don't think you need to keep the current people in place. I think the ideal situation would be to completely overhaul both Staffs grab a QB early and let him sit and learn under Eli for a year with the new Coaching staff.
Here is the thing about that, and I've given this thought and was going to start a thread on it, but we'll have plenty of time to do so in January on. For the sake of arguement, let's say the Giants pick in the top 3, and even possibly first overall (not out of the question right now). They draft a QB, and have to pay him accordingly. Can the Giants afford to suck up that much cap space on 2 QBs? Are the almost forced to make a move with Eli? The ideal situation would be give him a year to learn. So that would also mean, do the Giants approach Eli and ask him to take a massive pay cut? We saw how all this went with Kerry Collins in 2004 when Eli was drafted. This will be a fascinating story to watch leading up to the draft if things stay to form right now.
35 = are for a complete overhaul of Coaching and GM staff
2 = are for firing Reese
2 = are for firing McAdoo
1 = Sarcastically saying stay the course..lol
1 = Other
If the Maras want to keep Eli, I think you need to keep Reese and Mac. Might be the worse thing, but it means you are not starting really starting over and blowing up the team. I do, however, fire just about every other coach. Spags is over rated, Sullivan was never that good as an OC and Quinn should have been let go years ago. I don't think this staff is Mac's staff. I think it is the Mara's staff.
If the new coaching staff succeeds, You may need to keep them both longer When it fails though you move on from them all
If the Maras decide to move on from Eli. I start this year and evaluate Webb. Fire everyone and go into a true rebuilding. This gives the New GM the opportunity to draft his QB, Hire his coach and have a staff built in his image.
I don't think you need to keep the current people in place. I think the ideal situation would be to completely overhaul both Staffs grab a QB early and let him sit and learn under Eli for a year with the new Coaching staff.
Here is the thing about that, and I've given this thought and was going to start a thread on it, but we'll have plenty of time to do so in January on. For the sake of arguement, let's say the Giants pick in the top 3, and even possibly first overall (not out of the question right now). They draft a QB, and have to pay him accordingly. Can the Giants afford to suck up that much cap space on 2 QBs? Are the almost forced to make a move with Eli? The ideal situation would be give him a year to learn. So that would also mean, do the Giants approach Eli and ask him to take a massive pay cut? We saw how all this went with Kerry Collins in 2004 when Eli was drafted. This will be a fascinating story to watch leading up to the draft if things stay to form right now.
Good point, you would be looking at at least 10M a year for a top 3 QB drafted
Everyone has to go, but it shouldn't stop there. As many players should be jettisoned (where possible and for appropriate value) as possible.
I'd like to see an influx of new ideas. I'm tired of overemphasizing particular areas of the roster at the expense of others, and I'm tired of having the same weaknesses being exposed.
Above everything I think this team needs to be more fluid in how it approaches talent scouting, acquisition, and incorporation into the gameplan. If I were tasked with writing a mission statement, that would be it.
And I mean everybody I re-watch that show Finding Giants a few weeks back and the scouts on that show didn't give me a good feeling at all of how we are looking for talent. My only exemption is who ever is scouting WRs we seem to be above average in the league and identify those guys in UDFA and with our Draft choices
http://www.strawpoll.me/14340763 Strawpoll - ( New Window )
Links not working
I clicked on New Window and it seems to work,
It works if I cut off the numbers and just go to the main page. Should have tried that from the start, I think too much into it now. Thanks for the link for future reference though
I usually err on the side of continuity and stability Â
Then hire Nick Caserio as the next GM and let him decide on a coach (hopefully not McDaniels)
Belichick my have a crap coaching tree but he has a decent tree of successful executives that learned from him.
but the atmosphere around the organization due to their record and the bloodlust of the anti-McAdoo clan has made even incremental changes impossible.
Reese deserves to go and any new GM should be allowed to have a hand in choosing the head coach he works with. If that means McAdoo has to go, so be it.
I think this team's struggles is more of an indictment on the coaching than anything. I'd go for gradual change rather than burning it all down. I think there's a lot of talent on the team. I think this talent is capable of winning. I just don't think it's being properly utilized by the coaching staff.
I'm down on Eli, but I don't even think we need to start with the QB and rebuild right now. I think a couple more weapons on O and D, a couple more pieces on the OL and we can contend next year. OBJ, Shep, and Engram together with whichever backfield playmaker they get in the draft coming up, we can have a vibrant offense with Eli heading the unit. I don't know that Mac is the guy who can field that team though.
I also am down on Spags. For how good he looked last year, this year he looks worse. The defense has been floundering for weeks, more of a problem than our anemic O, which is saying something. I think injuries are a part of it, but having no discipline in the secondary with the suspensions and lazy play says a lot about Spags too IMO.
A whole new coaching staff would do a lot more good than burning it all down, that's my vote.
No one will be fired unless they can be replaced by someone Â
1) Keep Reese
2) See how McAdoo does in the 2nd half of the season. He would need a minimum of 1 more win and to be competitive in 4 other games. Competitive being a loss by a TD or less. If he can do at least that give him another year. Jimmy Johnson went 1-15 in his rookie year and then went on to win 2 consecutive Super Bowls 3 seasons later.
35 = are for a complete overhaul of Coaching and GM staff
2 = are for firing Reese
2 = are for firing McAdoo
1 = Sarcastically saying stay the course..lol
1 = Other
44 = are for a complete overhaul of Coaching and GM staff
2 = are for firing Reese
4 = Are for firing McAdoo
2 = Other
1 = a special request to save CiP
If you want to blame Reese for this season or this game then you also need to credit him for two Super Bowl years and two other playoff years including just last year. That is the best record in the NFC East over that time period. Here are two articles that made a strong case that Reese has actually been a good GM. As the one points out in the 2007 draft Aaron Ross, Steve Smith, Jay Alford, Kevin Boss, Zak DeOssie, Michael Johnson, and Ahmad Bradshaw all played a role in the Giants Super Bowl 42 win over the then undefeated New England Patriots.
The one looks at his draft picks from 2007-2014. It credits 6 of those 8 drafts as good and makes a good case. Beyond that here is a take on his other three drafts. Two of these three recent drafts look to also be good.
For the 2017 draft class at the midway point in 2017, a Beacher Report panel has selected Evan Engram as the top tight end rookie and Dalvin Tomlinson as the top defensive tackle rookie. Both players made their list of the top 25 rookies. PFF has Tomlinson as their 7th top rookie thru 8 weeks. These were talented picks at positions of need.
The 2016 draft class has four of the six picks as solid players. Sterling Shepard made the Pro Football Writers Association all Rookie Team. In 2017 before he was injured Shepard led all receivers in yards from the slot. Darian Thompson back from injury has made PFF's top 5 graded Giants in the previous two games. Darian is PFFs highest graded Giant from the 2016 draft. In his rookie season Eli Apple made the All Rookie Team of Gil Brandt from NFL.com. In 2017 Eli Apple has been graded by PFF as their first and second top graded Giant over the last two games. Apple has had his bad plays but he has also shown the potential to be a great cornerback. Sixth round pick Jerell Adams is PFF's second higest graded tight end among 2016 drafted tight ends. Jerell is one of six active players for WRs/TEs that in 2016 had zero drops with a completion percentage of 75% or better on 10 or more targets. He has had zero drops in his two years.
The 2015 draft class has given us safety Landon Collins, who in his rookie year made PFWA All-Rookie Team. Then in 2016 made First-team All-Pro and the Pro Bowl. The Giants traded up in the draft to get him. The Giants have lost three of their six 2015 draft players. However using Pro Football Reference's Approximate Value (AV) data the remaining Giants players rate at 40 AV which compares positively against the other NFC East teams remaining 2015 draft players of Dallas (16), Eagles (17) and the Redskins (44).
By the way I appreciate your polite question. I expected to get slaughtered for my vote.
I'll give Mac some credit for modernizing the strength and conditioning program, but that seems to be the only positive. His playcalling was horrendous, his offense struggles to put up 20 points a game, we're one of the worst teams as far as ToP, and now it looks like he's lost the locker room.
Reese also needs to go. I'll give him some credit because he found a few players this season, but overall his vision for the team has been wrong. Eli is at his best when stretching the field. I know the CBA presented us some issues but, jeeze, did we have to transition the polar opposite offense? I'm not even going to go into the offensive line.
and gogiants... I am fascinated by your response. assuming you are serious, what have you seen to think McAdoo deserves to stay the HC of the NYG?
See my prior post on Reese. As for McAdoo my arguments are not as fact based. I just feel he deserves the rest of the season to see ow he responds.
There is still half a season of football to play. Rightfully so the Giants organization is going to reserve judgement and give McAdoo the rest of the season to turn things around. A brutal loss but it is one game. At the midway point they have either won or were close to winning in four of the eight games. If he can improve that in the remaining eight then maybe he stays. After going 11-5 record and the playoffs his first year, McAdoo has definitely been challenged his 2nd year. How he responds will say a lot about him and his future here. So far he has made the tough decisions to discipline players, give up play-calling, adjust the offensive line and running back rotations. Some of these adjustments helped contribute to a convincing Denver win that most gave the Giants no chance in.
McAdoo was recognized early in his career by Mike McCarthy as a good coach. McCarthy interviewed Ben for the New Orleans offensive quality control coordinator. McCarthy has kept Ben with him to the 49ers and the Packers. When playing the giants in 2016 this is what McCarthy hasd to say about Ben - “He is definitely a stickler for the details, tremendous work ethic, so we know that we are going to see a very well-prepared football team come Sunday night.” The Giants saw great things in Ben to choose him as head coach. After an 11-5 rookie year, I can't see deciding everyone was wrong because of one terrible season. The loss of the three receivers has got to be factored into the decision. In 1989 first year coach Jimmy Johnson went 1-15 with the Cowboys. Jerry Jones stuck with him and Jimmy went on to win two consecutive Super Bowls three seasons later.
McAdoo has the traits that you look for in a head coach - intelligence, exceptional work ethic, player oriented, able to discipline, focused on winning, philosophy that coincides with Giants organization, experience working up thru the ranks, recommendations from respected football coaches, team oriented, ability to change. He is still the head coach they hired two years ago and the one that took them to the playoffs his first year. Many great coaches started off badly.
I think people assume this team has given up on McAdoo. I'm not saying no one has. But most of this team to me is still giving all they can to win. Does anyone really think that Eli Manning, Shepard, Engram, Ellison, Darkwa, Gallman, the O-Line, Snacks, Tomlinson,etc, have given up. I don't see it. If anyone has given up I am convinced Ben will replace them with someone who has not. I think you have to wait an see how the second half of the season goes
It's telling that the few exceptions need so many words to try to explain themselves. Its simple in reality. Neither Jerry nor Mac are very good at what they do and the sooner ownership admits the mistake the very much better.
They're humans, so you never want to see someone lose their job, but it's time to clean house. McAdoo is in over his head and Reese has ran through his 9 lives. The results yielded from last years FA class bought him some time, but the poor roster construction year after year has finally come to a head.
I REALLY feel bad for Eli. His last productive years in the league were wasted.
I can't agree on McAdoo - to me, the evidence is overwhelming that he is not the right guy. The team is not responding which speaks to his leadership skills but even more than that, he has shown no aptitude for building a high powered Offense, which was his forte and reason for being hired.
Reese is more interesting... he has been at the helm for some quality draft picks and FA signings in his years and certainly, he has some hardware on his resume... but big picture I see a team that doesn't make sense. I see a team that is badly constructed (in addition to being badly coached). and by the way, he needs to own the McAdoo hiring in the first place.
bottom line, this team/org stinks so bad that it needs to be gutted and a fresh vision is required.
This organization needs a complete knockdown and rebuild. We need a new shopper of groceries, a new chef and new, fresh produce.
I have been completely unimpressed with Giants ownership lately - between botching the Coughlin departure after doing it two years too late and the tone deaf reaction to the Josh Brown incident, betting on an unproven McAdoo to lead the team, failing to take action on Reese, the Meh-Tlife stadium investment and letting past performance and high draft status dictate the automatic spots on the team for certain players, they have instilled a culture of complacency, mediocrity and lack of accountability.
and gogiants... I am fascinated by your response. assuming you are serious, what have you seen to think McAdoo deserves to stay the HC of the NYG?
See my prior post on Reese. As for McAdoo my arguments are not as fact based. I just feel he deserves the rest of the season to see ow he responds.
There is still half a season of football to play. Rightfully so the Giants organization is going to reserve judgement and give McAdoo the rest of the season to turn things around. A brutal loss but it is one game. At the midway point they have either won or were close to winning in four of the eight games. If he can improve that in the remaining eight then maybe he stays. After going 11-5 record and the playoffs his first year, McAdoo has definitely been challenged his 2nd year. How he responds will say a lot about him and his future here. So far he has made the tough decisions to discipline players, give up play-calling, adjust the offensive line and running back rotations. Some of these adjustments helped contribute to a convincing Denver win that most gave the Giants no chance in.
McAdoo was recognized early in his career by Mike McCarthy as a good coach. McCarthy interviewed Ben for the New Orleans offensive quality control coordinator. McCarthy has kept Ben with him to the 49ers and the Packers. When playing the giants in 2016 this is what McCarthy hasd to say about Ben - “He is definitely a stickler for the details, tremendous work ethic, so we know that we are going to see a very well-prepared football team come Sunday night.” The Giants saw great things in Ben to choose him as head coach. After an 11-5 rookie year, I can't see deciding everyone was wrong because of one terrible season. The loss of the three receivers has got to be factored into the decision. In 1989 first year coach Jimmy Johnson went 1-15 with the Cowboys. Jerry Jones stuck with him and Jimmy went on to win two consecutive Super Bowls three seasons later.
McAdoo has the traits that you look for in a head coach - intelligence, exceptional work ethic, player oriented, able to discipline, focused on winning, philosophy that coincides with Giants organization, experience working up thru the ranks, recommendations from respected football coaches, team oriented, ability to change. He is still the head coach they hired two years ago and the one that took them to the playoffs his first year. Many great coaches started off badly.
I think people assume this team has given up on McAdoo. I'm not saying no one has. But most of this team to me is still giving all they can to win. Does anyone really think that Eli Manning, Shepard, Engram, Ellison, Darkwa, Gallman, the O-Line, Snacks, Tomlinson,etc, have given up. I don't see it. If anyone has given up I am convinced Ben will replace them with someone who has not. I think you have to wait an see how the second half of the season goes
That's a fair take. What would be the cut off point for if he stays or goes at the end of the season?
Because you didn't specify "when". McAdoo has clearly lost the locker room. It is intolerable to allow the circus to continue. He and Reese should both be fired now. Finish the season with interim GM/coaches and start the search for a new GM now.
I would put McAdoo's cut off point at 1 more win and competitive (loss by 1 TD or less) in 4 other games.
I think he would need at least 4 wins which aren't going to happen. Where it's really going to send Mara through the roof is when we get the second round of our divisional rivals at home. Francesa made a great point today about how Giants Stadium could literally be filled with the stadium filled with 80% of Cowboys and Eagle fans and how that would make Mara lose his mind.
longer be considered untouchable. Eli's cap hit is huge for team that sucks and needs so much talent. We can lose just as easily without Eli's contract wringing this kind of money in a losing effort, tough decisions to be made and do these owners have the balls for it is the question...
RE: with the current state of this team Eli can no Â
longer be considered untouchable. Eli's cap hit is huge for team that sucks and needs so much talent. We can lose just as easily without Eli's contract wringing this kind of money in a losing effort, tough decisions to be made and do these owners have the balls for it is the question...
The problem is you end up with a ton of dead money and no QB
I don't give a shit about anything else.
But Reese/Ross have to be shown the door.
They won't get rid of him completely but they need to get him out of player personnel and move him into the PR side of the team
love the practices!
C
I don't know what he actually does there - but I'd rather take my chances that his new role ensures he does nothing.
I know some of you support the team no matter what. That's admirable. I know the tickets have already been paid for. But if we want changes, make a statement. Nobody but Chiefs fans should be at our next home game.
OK, C but for God's sakes - absolutely NOT to hire a Giants retread in the FO and a Patriots coordinator.
You can't keep any of them.
MacADunce should go today
I’m assuming we’re talking Special Ed special. Because that is true.
Mara needs a full clean slate, GM, all staff all coaches.
... Tom Quinn will stay, he has pictures on someone (only thing I can come up with)
Last year the offense was a joke, but was masked by the defense not blowing games. The Dallas game and the Detroit game showed the offense never got better, the defense got exposed, and the wheels came off. To me, there is no reason to keep McAdoo around anymore because he didn't deliver the main reason why he was here, to win a title with Eli. And once you get that Super Bowl under your belt, you earn the respect that he's tried to assume he just has. And the team has tuned him out.
As I said yesterday, McAdoo has become a combination of Handley's poor handling of the press with Greg Schiano's hard ass attitude despite not really gaining that respect of the team. Simply put, McAdoo is not ready to be a head coach.
And Reese needs to go because the roster put together has been poor since 2012. The Giants have really had the talent of a 4-5 win team the past few years. Coughlin coaxed a couple more wins out of them, and was helped by playing some bad teams along with way with bad QBs. Essentially they are the 0-6 team of 2013, but don't get the fun of playing a bunch of bad QBs in a row to hide the stink.
With such a high pick coming, and Eli at the end, it's time to start it all over.
The bigger question to me, does Mara undo the George Young org structure and bring in a head coach with has control of personnel too. To me, that's the level of organizational change we should be talking about.
Last year the offense was a joke, but was masked by the defense not blowing games. The Dallas game and the Detroit game showed the offense never got better, the defense got exposed, and the wheels came off. To me, there is no reason to keep McAdoo around anymore because he didn't deliver the main reason why he was here, to win a title with Eli. And once you get that Super Bowl under your belt, you earn the respect that he's tried to assume he just has. And the team has tuned him out.
As I said yesterday, McAdoo has become a combination of Handley's poor handling of the press with Greg Schiano's hard ass attitude despite not really gaining that respect of the team. Simply put, McAdoo is not ready to be a head coach.
And Reese needs to go because the roster put together has been poor since 2012. The Giants have really had the talent of a 4-5 win team the past few years. Coughlin coaxed a couple more wins out of them, and was helped by playing some bad teams along with way with bad QBs. Essentially they are the 0-6 team of 2013, but don't get the fun of playing a bunch of bad QBs in a row to hide the stink.
With such a high pick coming, and Eli at the end, it's time to start it all over.
The bigger question to me, does Mara undo the George Young org structure and bring in a head coach with has control of personnel too. To me, that's the level of organizational change we should be talking about.
Spot on post Matt. Might I add that a return to a power running game with a deep passing attack with in cuts, seems, post and corners will do wonders for Eli.
This team needs leadership on an off the field as well. I wish Eli would say something and stop being a good soldier.
It's obvious now that this team has had no identity for some time - leading back to before Coughlin was dismissed. They didn't just chuck him out the door because they thought the problems were all on coaching.
It's not just a matter of bad personnel - it's personnel that doesn't fit into a coherent scheme, and that's been a problem going on 6 years now. That's on both the coaches and the FO.
That's why they need a clean sweep - but it's imperative that they clean house, and add a FO and coach (if they don't consolidate the power structure as Matt suggests) that are on the same page. One vision for the team, executed by two groups in unison.
If that doesn't happen, we're in for more of the same.
Cookie Monster says option C
http://www.strawpoll.me/14340763
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Reese needs to go. Not hitting on enough draft picks, and huge salary cap dollars tied into way under performing players.
love the practices!
That's just mean lol
The scouting staff probably needs an overhaul, too.
Last year the offense was a joke, but was masked by the defense not blowing games. The Dallas game and the Detroit game showed the offense never got better, the defense got exposed, and the wheels came off. To me, there is no reason to keep McAdoo around anymore because he didn't deliver the main reason why he was here, to win a title with Eli. And once you get that Super Bowl under your belt, you earn the respect that he's tried to assume he just has. And the team has tuned him out.
As I said yesterday, McAdoo has become a combination of Handley's poor handling of the press with Greg Schiano's hard ass attitude despite not really gaining that respect of the team. Simply put, McAdoo is not ready to be a head coach.
And Reese needs to go because the roster put together has been poor since 2012. The Giants have really had the talent of a 4-5 win team the past few years. Coughlin coaxed a couple more wins out of them, and was helped by playing some bad teams along with way with bad QBs. Essentially they are the 0-6 team of 2013, but don't get the fun of playing a bunch of bad QBs in a row to hide the stink.
With such a high pick coming, and Eli at the end, it's time to start it all over.
The bigger question to me, does Mara undo the George Young org structure and bring in a head coach with has control of personnel too. To me, that's the level of organizational change we should be talking about.
I would add in the idiotic way he uses phrases and names for things that already have names, as if it is being some sort of visionary, as another way he loses credibility. Sure, it seems small but imagine you are a Veteran player and suddenly your coach is talking taking better care of the Duke. It sounds dumb and it becomes even more dumb when the team struggles. Heavy Handed is another one. That just comes off as a stupid. The more they struggle the more that will stand out.
It is like the small habit your significant other has that you don't really care for but because everything else is great it doesn't stand out as much. Then you hit some tough times or issues and suddenly that habit becomes irritating, aggravating and a source or scorn and ridicule. That is what I see with BM and his dumb ass way of naming things that don't need cute nicknames or catch phrases..
http://www.strawpoll.me/14340763 Strawpoll - ( New Window )
Links not working
I have mixed feelings about Reese. Based in the Giants record, he should go too, but I have trouble putting a finger on what he should have done instead or what will improve if he's replaced. Its easy to say that he drafted so and so who was a bust. Its harder to say who he should have drafted instead. Other than Matt Dodge I have a hard time thinking of a draft pick that looked bad right when he made it. He's been criticized with staying with over the hill players to long. The worst was David Diehl but that was a long time ago. Besides the Giants have been overly loyal to veterans for as long as I've been following them.
As far as Spags, I'd like to see what he can do either as an HC or working for a decent HC. He's already coached a Super Bowl defense and last year he coached probably the best defense in the NFL. This year he's had to deal with injuries, and offense that can't stay on the field, and I believe , interference from McAdoo. Ditto for Quinn.
If the Maras want to keep Eli, I think you need to keep Reese and Mac. Might be the worse thing, but it means you are not starting really starting over and blowing up the team. I do, however, fire just about every other coach. Spags is over rated, Sullivan was never that good as an OC and Quinn should have been let go years ago. I don't think this staff is Mac's staff. I think it is the Mara's staff.
If the new coaching staff succeeds, You may need to keep them both longer When it fails though you move on from them all
If the Maras decide to move on from Eli. I start this year and evaluate Webb. Fire everyone and go into a true rebuilding. This gives the New GM the opportunity to draft his QB, Hire his coach and have a staff built in his image.
If the Maras want to keep Eli, I think you need to keep Reese and Mac. Might be the worse thing, but it means you are not starting really starting over and blowing up the team. I do, however, fire just about every other coach. Spags is over rated, Sullivan was never that good as an OC and Quinn should have been let go years ago. I don't think this staff is Mac's staff. I think it is the Mara's staff.
If the new coaching staff succeeds, You may need to keep them both longer When it fails though you move on from them all
If the Maras decide to move on from Eli. I start this year and evaluate Webb. Fire everyone and go into a true rebuilding. This gives the New GM the opportunity to draft his QB, Hire his coach and have a staff built in his image.
I don't think you need to keep the current people in place. I think the ideal situation would be to completely overhaul both Staffs grab a QB early and let him sit and learn under Eli for a year with the new Coaching staff.
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as in it depends.
If the Maras want to keep Eli, I think you need to keep Reese and Mac. Might be the worse thing, but it means you are not starting really starting over and blowing up the team. I do, however, fire just about every other coach. Spags is over rated, Sullivan was never that good as an OC and Quinn should have been let go years ago. I don't think this staff is Mac's staff. I think it is the Mara's staff.
If the new coaching staff succeeds, You may need to keep them both longer When it fails though you move on from them all
If the Maras decide to move on from Eli. I start this year and evaluate Webb. Fire everyone and go into a true rebuilding. This gives the New GM the opportunity to draft his QB, Hire his coach and have a staff built in his image.
I don't think you need to keep the current people in place. I think the ideal situation would be to completely overhaul both Staffs grab a QB early and let him sit and learn under Eli for a year with the new Coaching staff.
Here is the thing about that, and I've given this thought and was going to start a thread on it, but we'll have plenty of time to do so in January on. For the sake of arguement, let's say the Giants pick in the top 3, and even possibly first overall (not out of the question right now). They draft a QB, and have to pay him accordingly. Can the Giants afford to suck up that much cap space on 2 QBs? Are the almost forced to make a move with Eli? The ideal situation would be give him a year to learn. So that would also mean, do the Giants approach Eli and ask him to take a massive pay cut? We saw how all this went with Kerry Collins in 2004 when Eli was drafted. This will be a fascinating story to watch leading up to the draft if things stay to form right now.
2 = are for firing Reese
2 = are for firing McAdoo
1 = Sarcastically saying stay the course..lol
1 = Other
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In comment 13679005 cjd2404 said:
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as in it depends.
If the Maras want to keep Eli, I think you need to keep Reese and Mac. Might be the worse thing, but it means you are not starting really starting over and blowing up the team. I do, however, fire just about every other coach. Spags is over rated, Sullivan was never that good as an OC and Quinn should have been let go years ago. I don't think this staff is Mac's staff. I think it is the Mara's staff.
If the new coaching staff succeeds, You may need to keep them both longer When it fails though you move on from them all
If the Maras decide to move on from Eli. I start this year and evaluate Webb. Fire everyone and go into a true rebuilding. This gives the New GM the opportunity to draft his QB, Hire his coach and have a staff built in his image.
I don't think you need to keep the current people in place. I think the ideal situation would be to completely overhaul both Staffs grab a QB early and let him sit and learn under Eli for a year with the new Coaching staff.
Here is the thing about that, and I've given this thought and was going to start a thread on it, but we'll have plenty of time to do so in January on. For the sake of arguement, let's say the Giants pick in the top 3, and even possibly first overall (not out of the question right now). They draft a QB, and have to pay him accordingly. Can the Giants afford to suck up that much cap space on 2 QBs? Are the almost forced to make a move with Eli? The ideal situation would be give him a year to learn. So that would also mean, do the Giants approach Eli and ask him to take a massive pay cut? We saw how all this went with Kerry Collins in 2004 when Eli was drafted. This will be a fascinating story to watch leading up to the draft if things stay to form right now.
Good point, you would be looking at at least 10M a year for a top 3 QB drafted
I'd like to see an influx of new ideas. I'm tired of overemphasizing particular areas of the roster at the expense of others, and I'm tired of having the same weaknesses being exposed.
Above everything I think this team needs to be more fluid in how it approaches talent scouting, acquisition, and incorporation into the gameplan. If I were tasked with writing a mission statement, that would be it.
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Remake your thread and include this link:
http://www.strawpoll.me/14340763 Strawpoll - ( New Window )
Links not working
I clicked on New Window and it seems to work,
Reese selected McAdoo. They are a team. Reese got a pass with Coughlin as he inherited him.
If you keep McAdoo it will inhibit the choice of GMs. Most GMs will want to bring in their own regime.
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In comment 13678869 Dodge said:
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Remake your thread and include this link:
http://www.strawpoll.me/14340763 Strawpoll - ( New Window )
Links not working
I clicked on New Window and it seems to work,
It works if I cut off the numbers and just go to the main page. Should have tried that from the start, I think too much into it now. Thanks for the link for future reference though
Belichick my have a crap coaching tree but he has a decent tree of successful executives that learned from him.
Link from Dec 16 about execs from his tree.
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Reese deserves to go and any new GM should be allowed to have a hand in choosing the head coach he works with. If that means McAdoo has to go, so be it.
http://www.strawpoll.me/14340763 Strawpoll - ( New Window )
For the record, I want C, but in a hurry, I just selected Fire Reese. So I'm the one vote that skews the poll (right now).
I'm down on Eli, but I don't even think we need to start with the QB and rebuild right now. I think a couple more weapons on O and D, a couple more pieces on the OL and we can contend next year. OBJ, Shep, and Engram together with whichever backfield playmaker they get in the draft coming up, we can have a vibrant offense with Eli heading the unit. I don't know that Mac is the guy who can field that team though.
I also am down on Spags. For how good he looked last year, this year he looks worse. The defense has been floundering for weeks, more of a problem than our anemic O, which is saying something. I think injuries are a part of it, but having no discipline in the secondary with the suspensions and lazy play says a lot about Spags too IMO.
A whole new coaching staff would do a lot more good than burning it all down, that's my vote.
2) See how McAdoo does in the 2nd half of the season. He would need a minimum of 1 more win and to be competitive in 4 other games. Competitive being a loss by a TD or less. If he can do at least that give him another year. Jimmy Johnson went 1-15 in his rookie year and then went on to win 2 consecutive Super Bowls 3 seasons later.
2 = are for firing Reese
2 = are for firing McAdoo
1 = Sarcastically saying stay the course..lol
1 = Other
44 = are for a complete overhaul of Coaching and GM staff
2 = are for firing Reese
4 = Are for firing McAdoo
2 = Other
1 = a special request to save CiP
wow, please explain.
wow, please explain.
Sure, here are my arguments on Reese -
If you want to blame Reese for this season or this game then you also need to credit him for two Super Bowl years and two other playoff years including just last year. That is the best record in the NFC East over that time period. Here are two articles that made a strong case that Reese has actually been a good GM. As the one points out in the 2007 draft Aaron Ross, Steve Smith, Jay Alford, Kevin Boss, Zak DeOssie, Michael Johnson, and Ahmad Bradshaw all played a role in the Giants Super Bowl 42 win over the then undefeated New England Patriots.
https://gmenhq.com/2015/07/22/new-york-giants-the-draft-history-of-jerry-reese/
http://lastwordonprofootball.com/2017/10/31/jerry-reese-not-blame-season/
The one looks at his draft picks from 2007-2014. It credits 6 of those 8 drafts as good and makes a good case. Beyond that here is a take on his other three drafts. Two of these three recent drafts look to also be good.
For the 2017 draft class at the midway point in 2017, a Beacher Report panel has selected Evan Engram as the top tight end rookie and Dalvin Tomlinson as the top defensive tackle rookie. Both players made their list of the top 25 rookies. PFF has Tomlinson as their 7th top rookie thru 8 weeks. These were talented picks at positions of need.
The 2016 draft class has four of the six picks as solid players. Sterling Shepard made the Pro Football Writers Association all Rookie Team. In 2017 before he was injured Shepard led all receivers in yards from the slot. Darian Thompson back from injury has made PFF's top 5 graded Giants in the previous two games. Darian is PFFs highest graded Giant from the 2016 draft. In his rookie season Eli Apple made the All Rookie Team of Gil Brandt from NFL.com. In 2017 Eli Apple has been graded by PFF as their first and second top graded Giant over the last two games. Apple has had his bad plays but he has also shown the potential to be a great cornerback. Sixth round pick Jerell Adams is PFF's second higest graded tight end among 2016 drafted tight ends. Jerell is one of six active players for WRs/TEs that in 2016 had zero drops with a completion percentage of 75% or better on 10 or more targets. He has had zero drops in his two years.
The 2015 draft class has given us safety Landon Collins, who in his rookie year made PFWA All-Rookie Team. Then in 2016 made First-team All-Pro and the Pro Bowl. The Giants traded up in the draft to get him. The Giants have lost three of their six 2015 draft players. However using Pro Football Reference's Approximate Value (AV) data the remaining Giants players rate at 40 AV which compares positively against the other NFC East teams remaining 2015 draft players of Dallas (16), Eagles (17) and the Redskins (44).
By the way I appreciate your polite question. I expected to get slaughtered for my vote.
<<Ducking>>
Oh, OK. C.
Reese also needs to go. I'll give him some credit because he found a few players this season, but overall his vision for the team has been wrong. Eli is at his best when stretching the field. I know the CBA presented us some issues but, jeeze, did we have to transition the polar opposite offense? I'm not even going to go into the offensive line.
See my prior post on Reese. As for McAdoo my arguments are not as fact based. I just feel he deserves the rest of the season to see ow he responds.
There is still half a season of football to play. Rightfully so the Giants organization is going to reserve judgement and give McAdoo the rest of the season to turn things around. A brutal loss but it is one game. At the midway point they have either won or were close to winning in four of the eight games. If he can improve that in the remaining eight then maybe he stays. After going 11-5 record and the playoffs his first year, McAdoo has definitely been challenged his 2nd year. How he responds will say a lot about him and his future here. So far he has made the tough decisions to discipline players, give up play-calling, adjust the offensive line and running back rotations. Some of these adjustments helped contribute to a convincing Denver win that most gave the Giants no chance in.
McAdoo was recognized early in his career by Mike McCarthy as a good coach. McCarthy interviewed Ben for the New Orleans offensive quality control coordinator. McCarthy has kept Ben with him to the 49ers and the Packers. When playing the giants in 2016 this is what McCarthy hasd to say about Ben - “He is definitely a stickler for the details, tremendous work ethic, so we know that we are going to see a very well-prepared football team come Sunday night.” The Giants saw great things in Ben to choose him as head coach. After an 11-5 rookie year, I can't see deciding everyone was wrong because of one terrible season. The loss of the three receivers has got to be factored into the decision. In 1989 first year coach Jimmy Johnson went 1-15 with the Cowboys. Jerry Jones stuck with him and Jimmy went on to win two consecutive Super Bowls three seasons later.
McAdoo has the traits that you look for in a head coach - intelligence, exceptional work ethic, player oriented, able to discipline, focused on winning, philosophy that coincides with Giants organization, experience working up thru the ranks, recommendations from respected football coaches, team oriented, ability to change. He is still the head coach they hired two years ago and the one that took them to the playoffs his first year. Many great coaches started off badly.
I think people assume this team has given up on McAdoo. I'm not saying no one has. But most of this team to me is still giving all they can to win. Does anyone really think that Eli Manning, Shepard, Engram, Ellison, Darkwa, Gallman, the O-Line, Snacks, Tomlinson,etc, have given up. I don't see it. If anyone has given up I am convinced Ben will replace them with someone who has not. I think you have to wait an see how the second half of the season goes
I REALLY feel bad for Eli. His last productive years in the league were wasted.
I can't agree on McAdoo - to me, the evidence is overwhelming that he is not the right guy. The team is not responding which speaks to his leadership skills but even more than that, he has shown no aptitude for building a high powered Offense, which was his forte and reason for being hired.
Reese is more interesting... he has been at the helm for some quality draft picks and FA signings in his years and certainly, he has some hardware on his resume... but big picture I see a team that doesn't make sense. I see a team that is badly constructed (in addition to being badly coached). and by the way, he needs to own the McAdoo hiring in the first place.
bottom line, this team/org stinks so bad that it needs to be gutted and a fresh vision is required.
I have been completely unimpressed with Giants ownership lately - between botching the Coughlin departure after doing it two years too late and the tone deaf reaction to the Josh Brown incident, betting on an unproven McAdoo to lead the team, failing to take action on Reese, the Meh-Tlife stadium investment and letting past performance and high draft status dictate the automatic spots on the team for certain players, they have instilled a culture of complacency, mediocrity and lack of accountability.
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and gogiants... I am fascinated by your response. assuming you are serious, what have you seen to think McAdoo deserves to stay the HC of the NYG?
See my prior post on Reese. As for McAdoo my arguments are not as fact based. I just feel he deserves the rest of the season to see ow he responds.
There is still half a season of football to play. Rightfully so the Giants organization is going to reserve judgement and give McAdoo the rest of the season to turn things around. A brutal loss but it is one game. At the midway point they have either won or were close to winning in four of the eight games. If he can improve that in the remaining eight then maybe he stays. After going 11-5 record and the playoffs his first year, McAdoo has definitely been challenged his 2nd year. How he responds will say a lot about him and his future here. So far he has made the tough decisions to discipline players, give up play-calling, adjust the offensive line and running back rotations. Some of these adjustments helped contribute to a convincing Denver win that most gave the Giants no chance in.
McAdoo was recognized early in his career by Mike McCarthy as a good coach. McCarthy interviewed Ben for the New Orleans offensive quality control coordinator. McCarthy has kept Ben with him to the 49ers and the Packers. When playing the giants in 2016 this is what McCarthy hasd to say about Ben - “He is definitely a stickler for the details, tremendous work ethic, so we know that we are going to see a very well-prepared football team come Sunday night.” The Giants saw great things in Ben to choose him as head coach. After an 11-5 rookie year, I can't see deciding everyone was wrong because of one terrible season. The loss of the three receivers has got to be factored into the decision. In 1989 first year coach Jimmy Johnson went 1-15 with the Cowboys. Jerry Jones stuck with him and Jimmy went on to win two consecutive Super Bowls three seasons later.
McAdoo has the traits that you look for in a head coach - intelligence, exceptional work ethic, player oriented, able to discipline, focused on winning, philosophy that coincides with Giants organization, experience working up thru the ranks, recommendations from respected football coaches, team oriented, ability to change. He is still the head coach they hired two years ago and the one that took them to the playoffs his first year. Many great coaches started off badly.
I think people assume this team has given up on McAdoo. I'm not saying no one has. But most of this team to me is still giving all they can to win. Does anyone really think that Eli Manning, Shepard, Engram, Ellison, Darkwa, Gallman, the O-Line, Snacks, Tomlinson,etc, have given up. I don't see it. If anyone has given up I am convinced Ben will replace them with someone who has not. I think you have to wait an see how the second half of the season goes
That's a fair take. What would be the cut off point for if he stays or goes at the end of the season?
It's hard to imagine Mara going along with a house-cleaning that fires all those long time employees. But it's time to let go of some dead wood.
2 just Jerry
4 just mac
Do I have that correct?
4
1
1
Then they fire the waterboy.
"C", if Mc really has lost the players;
I really fear it'll be " D"...in which case I'll lose my chit.
I think he would need at least 4 wins which aren't going to happen. Where it's really going to send Mara through the roof is when we get the second round of our divisional rivals at home. Francesa made a great point today about how Giants Stadium could literally be filled with the stadium filled with 80% of Cowboys and Eagle fans and how that would make Mara lose his mind.
3 for Firing Reese
4 for Firing McAdoo
3 fo Other
The problem is you end up with a ton of dead money and no QB