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Sy'56 Giants-Rams Game Review Now Available...

Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/8/2017 1:27 pm
Some very good insights despite the terrible loss...
Game Review: Los Angeles Rams 51 Ė New York Giants 17 - ( New Window )
Wow  
The_Boss : 11/8/2017 1:34 pm : link
Sy giving up on Apple pretty fast
back up the truck. Reese, McHandley, Spags, Ross, the scouts  
Victor in CT : 11/8/2017 2:00 pm : link
everyone. Start again. And I agree, Eli would be wise to approve a trade to a young up and coming team that needs a veteran QB to lead them
RE: Wow  
Sy'56 : 11/8/2017 2:07 pm : link
In comment 13682212 The_Boss said:
Quote:
Sy giving up on Apple pretty fast


Talent is there and it is legit.

But his approach has maddened me as much as any negative part of the 2017 season
Eli Apple clearly has the physical ability to play this game at a high  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 11/8/2017 2:18 pm : link
level, but everything about him this season from his poor play, poor attitude/unwillingness to accept responsibility for poor play, and finally this complete lack of effort displayed at times Sunday has been a glaring negative.

I'd argue that an underrated "turning point" was the 2 drives directly after the 3rd & 33 TD. On first down, Eli Manning misses an open Sterling Shepard on a deep pass. The Giants go 3 & out. On the following possession, Jared Goff hits an open Sammy Watkins on a deep pass and just like that it was 24-7. The dichotomy there was rather depressing.
the problem  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/8/2017 2:20 pm : link
with all of this losing is the Giants are a young team and losing can become a habit.

2007 and 2011 is an eternity ago and almost all of those guys are long gone.
Eli to Jacksonville - Not Easy  
Rong5611 : 11/8/2017 2:36 pm : link
In addition to the trade clause waiver, he'd have to do a major re-structure, I think.

That said, I would not be so quick to get rid of him.
Hell no to the 'trade Eli' idea  
est1986 : 11/8/2017 2:52 pm : link
Best QB in Franchise History isn't getting traded. Plus he has a no trade clause and he has said he wants to play with the Giants. Maybe they ask him to take less $ to help re-sign their own OL guys. Sign a Tackle for him. Sign a LB and a CB. Draft Barkley and Nelson. Get back OBJ, Marshall, get a coach that wont call the most predictable game ever or suspend their top CB's and keep everyone healthy and boom!
Guys like Marshall are part of the problem. Good riddance  
Victor in CT : 11/8/2017 2:56 pm : link
.......
RE: the problem  
The_Boss : 11/8/2017 2:58 pm : link
In comment 13682281 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
with all of this losing is the Giants are a young team and losing can become a habit.

2007 and 2011 is an eternity ago and almost all of those guys are long gone.



Can become a habit?
7-9
6-10
6-10
** 11-5 **
1-7 (and counting)

This has been, save for an aberration last year, a losing program.
I've been talking about this crossroads  
Thatís Gold, Jerry : 11/8/2017 2:58 pm : link
for a long time and Sy basically said as much in his review.

This is the tough part...unless you truly believe we can make one more run with Eli and make the moves necessary to do so then you keep him which is why I simply cannot understand how the Mara/Tisches could sit by idly and watch Jerry Reese do nothing to help the offensive line and therefore, help Eli. It simply makes no senses.

If the decision is made to rebuild then Eli, sadly, has to go. But, I reiterate, Eli is far from the problem of this franchise and I remain convinced that a good offensive line, what appears now to be a sound running game, and with everyone back healthy, we can fairly evaluate Eli. But trying to evaluate and blame Eli based on this mess is a huge mistake.
RE: Hell no to the 'trade Eli' idea  
Diver_Down : 11/8/2017 3:18 pm : link
In comment 13682346 est1986 said:
Quote:
Best QB in Franchise History isn't getting traded. Plus he has a no trade clause and he has said he wants to play with the Giants. Maybe they ask him to take less $ to help re-sign their own OL guys. Sign a Tackle for him. Sign a LB and a CB. Draft Barkley and Nelson. Get back OBJ, Marshall, get a coach that wont call the most predictable game ever or suspend their top CB's and keep everyone healthy and boom!


You want him to take less money next season? He will earn $11 million in salary. How much less do you want him to make? He isn't going to play for vet. min.
Sy, I;m also high on Moss,  
Jim in Forest Hills : 11/8/2017 3:23 pm : link
He sheds well and plays with a lot of energy. Really excited about him as the 3rd DE next year with a year of strength training.
Thanks Sy.  
Racer : 11/8/2017 3:23 pm : link
With the NY writers being sensational and the four-letter-network tweeters chumming for clicks, your stuff is essentially the only thing being written about this team that's worth reading.
RE: Eli to Jacksonville - Not Easy  
Diver_Down : 11/8/2017 3:28 pm : link
In comment 13682311 Rong5611 said:
Quote:
In addition to the trade clause waiver, he'd have to do a major re-structure, I think.

That said, I would not be so quick to get rid of him.


Why would he have to do a major restructure? If the NTC is waived and a trade is negotiated within 3 days of the beginning of the league year, then Jax gets the player and the final 2 years of his existing contract. Next year, he has a salary of $11 M and the following year a salary of $12 M. If anything, Eli would be wise to wait out the Giants. With a $5M roster bonus due on the 3rd day, he has no incentive to play nice and allow any trade partner get a player at below market value. With no offset language, he can collect the $5M roster bonus and see how the draft plays out. If a QB is taken, he might decide that he wants no part in being a tutor and demand a trade. That $5M roster bonus would not have to be paid back and it would be tacked onto the dead cap hit which accelerates into the cap next season (in the event of a trade). The only cap relief the Giants get is if Eli is released and they can spread the dead cap hit over 2 years.
So other then Bisnowaty,  
Simms11 : 11/8/2017 3:32 pm : link
Reese had another solid draft? All are contributing this year, except Webb (who looked fairly solid in pre-season) and actually look like decent players. I'm afraid to say that this may just save Reese?! McAdoo on the other hand?!

Thanks Sy  
adamg : 11/8/2017 4:07 pm : link
I agree with most all of what you wrote. Do you have a feeling Apple could bounce back and have an attitude adjustment if they bring in the right coach? It would seem his problems stem from the systemic problems of the Giants, i.e. their coaching staff.
I laughed  
lugnut : 11/8/2017 4:42 pm : link
"Bobby Hart continued his 2017 campaign to let the league know he canít be a starting tackle in this league."
RE: Thanks Sy  
old man : 11/8/2017 4:49 pm : link
In comment 13682547 adamg said:
Quote:
I agree with most all of what you wrote. Do you have a feeling Apple could bounce back and have an attitude adjustment if they bring in the right coach? It would seem his problems stem from the systemic problems of the Giants, i.e. their coaching staff.


IMHO: If winning will give you a positive footballing attitude like losing gives you a negative one...you play at football but you're not a football player..since..it's. All. About. You.
Thanks Sy  
kennyd : 11/8/2017 7:32 pm : link
Some good insight as always, thanks. You deserve a medal for sitting through that mess and analyzing it. I could barely stomach it the first time.
another guy  
bc4life : 11/8/2017 8:31 pm : link
who wants to fire the coach who made the playoffs last year.

Lost 1st wrs, questionable OL, poor running game and an immobile QB. Couple of games they lost were close - had they won them - people would be talking about making a run, getting hot at the right time.

He's not coaching scared, he's suspending top guys who screw up. And that's when his job is on the line.

I think the bigger issue is scouting and personnel decisions. OL - they have 2 1st rounders, a 1st round FA, and a 2nd round FA - and the value isn't close to that

Also, JPP a huge disappointment, DRC, Jenkins, and Apple = 3 selfish pricks
Eli  
Rolyrock : 11/9/2017 3:45 am : link
What draft pick(s) would he be worth?
RE: another guy  
HomerJones45 : 11/9/2017 7:58 am : link
In comment 13682934 bc4life said:
Quote:
who wants to fire the coach who made the playoffs last year.

Lost 1st wrs, questionable OL, poor running game and an immobile QB. Couple of games they lost were close - had they won them - people would be talking about making a run, getting hot at the right time.

He's not coaching scared, he's suspending top guys who screw up. And that's when his job is on the line.

I think the bigger issue is scouting and personnel decisions. OL - they have 2 1st rounders, a 1st round FA, and a 2nd round FA - and the value isn't close to that

Also, JPP a huge disappointment, DRC, Jenkins, and Apple = 3 selfish pricks
Oh yeah, huge playoff run last year off the backs of 5 games against rookie qb's (4 in his own division) and a 200 million defensive spend and couldn't win the division. You guys act like no one else could have possibly made the playoffs with that. Was promptly buried in the playoff game. His offense (which is supposedly his core competency) had trouble reaching the magical 20 point barrier last year and has sucked all this year. Those "selfish pricks" carried him last year. Maybe they are tired of carrying this clown. Say goodbye to a mistake.
tired of carrying him  
bc4life : 11/9/2017 8:18 am : link
It's about the team - they broke team rules. He ain't TC - you follow the rules, they are the highest payed players on the team. Don't see Snacks, Eli, even Beckham getting fined or suspended.

The old "They only won because the teams had weaknesses" - but ignore all the injuries and personnel issues team had this year. Firing a coach a year after a playoff season is asinine.
the injury excuse is lame. they were 0-4,well on the way to 0-5 before  
Victor in CT : 11/9/2017 8:42 am : link
anybody was out. They won a bunch of games that could have gone either way last year. That doesn't happen 2 years in a row. McHandley's "offense" is a joke. A blind man can see it coming a million miles away. Though you can't blame BM for them, Quinn and Spagnoulo suck. They all shuld have been canned along with Reese 2 years ago. If he's so fucking smart, explain why he's refused to use two TEs for 5 weeks to help the OL, had Ellison nailed to the bench, Adams nailed under it. He's in way over his head.
RE: the problem  
jvm52106 : 11/9/2017 8:45 am : link
In comment 13682281 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
with all of this losing is the Giants are a young team and losing can become a habit.

2007 and 2011 is an eternity ago and almost all of those guys are long gone.


We also have a lack of leadership on this team. There are no Strahans, no Rolle's, no Pierce's etc.. This teams best player is NEVER going to be a leader and our best defensive player (Harrison) is not really a team leader. We need a couple of vets to settle things down on the defensive side and we need a guy on offense who will reign in some of the other players.

It is scary how much of a leadership void this team has.

BTW if HC candidates come up I am all for Josh McDaniels getting another chance and bring Mike Vrabel from the Texans with you..
RE: tired of carrying him  
HomerJones45 : 11/9/2017 8:56 am : link
In comment 13683124 bc4life said:
Quote:
It's about the team - they broke team rules. He ain't TC - you follow the rules, they are the highest payed players on the team. Don't see Snacks, Eli, even Beckham getting fined or suspended.

The old "They only won because the teams had weaknesses" - but ignore all the injuries and personnel issues team had this year. Firing a coach a year after a playoff season is asinine.
you have an offense predicated on sending wideouts into the short middle against lb and safeties and wonder why they got hurt.the offensive scheme stinks. When a guy fails at his core competency, there is nothing left.
RE: the injury excuse is lame. they were 0-4,well on the way to 0-5 before  
HomerJones45 : 11/9/2017 9:01 am : link
In comment 13683153 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
anybody was out. They won a bunch of games that could have gone either way last year. That doesn't happen 2 years in a row. McHandley's "offense" is a joke. A blind man can see it coming a million miles away. Though you can't blame BM for them, Quinn and Spagnoulo suck. They all shuld have been canned along with Reese 2 years ago. If he's so fucking smart, explain why he's refused to use two TEs for 5 weeks to help the OL, had Ellison nailed to the bench, Adams nailed under it. He's in way over his head.
oh its even better with Ellison. McAddoofus kkept braying in August how they felt Ellison had been "underutilized" in Minnesota and the proceeds to utilize him less and in fewer ways than Minnesota. Dumb as a bag of hammers.
Agree on all points  
AcesUp : 11/9/2017 9:38 am : link
This team has to go into a full rebuild this offseason, everything is lining up for it. As terrible as this season has been it actually presents a real opportunity to get away from the franchise's mediocrity balancing act of the last 6 years. With a top 5 draft pick and some nice pieces on the roster, we should have the pick of the litter when it comes to coaches and GMs. Get the best possible guys in place and let them pick their QB of the future at the top of the draft. By the 2019 season, we can be set up for the next decade and contending again if we play our cards right.

Also agree completely on Eli. He's not done, you can win with him, but you better have Top 3 talent on your roster to do so...and we're a couple seasons away from that at best. Jacksonville almost makes too much sense. There's the obvious Coughlin connection, but from a roster standpoint, the only real piece they are missing is a competent veteran quarterback. The team is practically built for Eli - stellar defense, maturing OL, multiple weapons in the passing game with one of the best young RBs in the game. If I'm Jacksonville, I make the trade offer....if I'm the Giants, I take it...and if I'm Eli, I don't hesitate to waive the trade clause.
Well, for one,  
Doomster : 11/9/2017 5:09 pm : link
Eli is not getting paid 10.5 M and 11.5 M, over the next two seasons......It's 16.5 and 17.5 if he is on the roster.....

The Giants would be doing him a favor by trading him.....this OL is possibly going to need, 4 new starters and Bisnowaty and Wheeler are not the answers.....neither is Fluker....

Eli needs weapons....healthy weapons.....he needs a running game.....this team needs a rebuild and if he and the Giants come to a meeting of the minds regarding him leaving, I am all for it, because he has been wasted for the last 6 seasons...I still think he can play, but not behind any line we have, and definitely not with Mac.....

Sy, for the life of me, how you did not pick JPP for one of the duds, is beyond me.....I expect guys like Jerry and Munson to be duds.....I don't expect JPP to be one....he made on play that I saw...another tackle was a gift where Gurley cut back right into him....don't even remember the 3rd tackle...but I do remember, the runs that went by him, especially two of the last three plays by the Rams on their final td.....that was a pathetic performance by one of the so-called leaders on defense....

As for this team, it's the same thing every week....mistake after mistake after mistake.....but at least we had another good week of practice....
RE: Well, for one,  
Diver_Down : 11/9/2017 5:20 pm : link
In comment 13684041 Doomster said:
Quote:
Eli is not getting paid 10.5 M and 11.5 M, over the next two seasons......It's 16.5 and 17.5 if he is on the roster.....


His salary is indeed $10.5 M and $11.5 M. He has additional bonuses that will push his cash received to $16 M and $17 M. You have to be clear how you phrase his earnings. He very well could receive a $5M roster bonus as a cheap insurance policy until after the draft unfolds. He very well could receive $500K workout bonus to serve as competition in OTAs. These bonuses are independent of his salary. He could receive both bonuses and still be traded/released.
Apple  
Dragon : 11/9/2017 6:36 pm : link
You want to give away a 22 year old 1st round pick at CB who is playing as well as all the other guys on this team but he is the reason why they are 1-7. However you think teams in the NFL canít wait to trade for a 37 year old statue QB who each week shows more and more declining skills. Eli is very overrated because he has a clean history but his days as a solid starting QB are quickly counting down. How long before or will they see what they have in Webb the entire world knows what we have in Eli. Just know this Eli did not loose the game neither did Apple but they both had played a big part in the loss as did all the other players.

We are 1-7 because this team deserves to be 1-7 and in truth they will be very lucky to win 4 games. Nothing has gone right but itís been a team effort to get where they are everyone has role in this seasons record but most of all they are just not special talents at more than five or six positions on this team. Every team started out wanting to win now they are praying to do all the things required to win a game because the talent is just not very good.
We should cut Apple??  
Jimmy Googs : 11/9/2017 7:40 pm : link
Never a fan of the pick nor how he has played in his 2 years but unloading players taken this high in the draft without thinking thru that it could be due to the clear ineffectiveness of our development/coaching is shortsighted.

Who have we really drafted in recent years and are happy with their overall development?

The list is short...
Nice write-up Sy -  
short lease : 11/10/2017 8:16 am : link
agree with your closing thoughts but, it would physically pain me to see Eli suit-up in another team's uniform.

As long as the move/trade has HIS (Eli's) blessing (maybe he wants to see if he can get 1 more - like his brother did with a talented Denver team), I will have to support it/his decision. He deserves that much. Reece certainly let him down and wasted some of a very talented QB's productive years because of Reece's poor talent evaluation.

It can be done ... just because you win a SB doesn't mean you have to rebuild the team from the bottom up the next year. How does NE do it every year? They always have a legit shot at the playoffs every year ....

Anyway, thanks.
We are saying the same thing, just differently.....  
Doomster : 11/10/2017 8:45 am : link
RE: Well, for one,
Diver_Down : 11/9/2017 5:20 pm : link : reply
In comment 13684041 Doomster said:
Quote:
Eli is not getting paid 10.5 M and 11.5 M, over the next two seasons......It's 16.5 and 17.5 if he is on the roster.....


His salary is indeed $10.5 M and $11.5 M. He has additional bonuses that will push his cash received to $16 M and $17 M. You have to be clear how you phrase his earnings. He very well could receive a $5M roster bonus as a cheap insurance policy until after the draft unfolds. He very well could receive $500K workout bonus to serve as competition in OTAs. These bonuses are independent of his salary. He could receive both bonuses and still be traded/released.


Those bonuses are in the contract.....

For example, if he is on the roster after the third day of the NFL league year, you WILL have to pay him 10.5 plus 5 plus .5 for a total of 16M in salary, and he will be a 22.2M cap hit for 2018.....

However, if you find a team to trade him to:

one, he has to negate the no trade clause....

two, he will only do that if he is going to a better situation than with the Giants.....

and three, he will not be going there to play for 11.5M....he will want to get his contract renegotiated before being traded.....

A trade would be in the best interests for both sides.....it saves the Giants 5.5M each season, and they can split the cap hit over two seasons, I think, even if traded, giving them a net of 5.3M per season...so we are talking almost 11M per season, which can be used on that OL or used on OBj or Collins or whoever....

It's going to take several seasons to concentrate on rebuilding this OL, and the rest of the team....we have been working on this OL for 6 seasons, and we aren't even close...Eli can't wait anymore.....he needs to go to a team, that has better protection, a running game, receivers, and an OC/HC that has a clue about utilizing his talents....we have seen him wasted for 6 seasons....I'd rather see him go out with a chance at another title with another team, than face the uncertainty of what direction this team is going in....
Not going to quote as it is just getting messed up.  
Diver_Down : 11/10/2017 9:16 am : link
But a veteran's salary is only guaranteed if it is explicitly stated in the contract or they are on the 53 man roster for the first game. So as I outlined above, there is a possibility that the bonuses are paid and the salary is not. Eli could serve as insurance and competition during the off-season and still be released/traded before the 53 man roster is set. Yes, I'm aware of the NTC. I've been reminding others for the past couple of months.

Any trade, regardless of when, does not allow the Giants to spread the cap hit. We eat it when he is traded. If there is no room, then we must make room when the transaction goes through. The only cap relief comes if he is released whereby he can be designated a June 1st cut.

Yes, any trade would likely entail a reworking of the remaining contract terms, but it is not required. Regardless, any new terms are the responsibility of the new team.

So as people suggest a trade, they must understand the components. If you are the Giants, you are looking to save future salary/bonuses and receive draft pick compensation. The down side is that the Giants must be able to absorb the dead cap hit. If you are Eli, the first hurdle is the 3 days at the beginning of the league year. Teams cannot inquire about another player under contract until the league year opens. So the clock to work a trade (draft pick compensation, Eli agreeing to waive the NTC, Reworking a contract by the new team) begins counting down within the 72 hours. Eli doesn't have a lot of incentive to cooperate in the 3 day window. If he is released, he becomes a free agent able to negotiate a current market contract with any team. He can just wait out the 3 days and collect $5M. With no offset language, the bonus is guaranteed. Keep in mind the Brown trade between the Texans/Seahawks began back in training camp. Seahawks GM (Schneider) stated such and it took nearly 2 months to work the trade for a disgruntled player holding out and criticizing the owner. I wouldn't bet on a trade being worked out in 3 days. Also, the trading team, might want to wait out the Giants if it is expected that Eli will be released. If they have to rework a contract why not just do it without giving up draft pick compensation? Not much incentive to give up draft picks for the privilege of reworking a contract to reflect current market conditions.

Bottom line is that a trade will likely not happen. If the draft falls the Giants way, they can decide that competition between Webb and the draft pick will suffice. If Eli is retained, then he'll likely be the starting QB. Mara isn't going to be thrilled paying $16M to watch Eli hold a clipboard. The only way Webb/rookie take over for Eli is injury to Eli or obvious decline by Eli and clear-cut better play by the new guy. If the level of play by Eli and the new guy is even, then Eli still gives us the best chance to win. When the team is eliminated from playoffs, then we'll see a transition.
TY Sy great review  
Bluesbreaker : 11/10/2017 1:17 pm : link
Want to trade someone and turn the team around it's OBJ
someone will over pay for this super star .
If he loses that jet speed say another freak injury like the
Cleveland game which still pisses me off . OBJ is going to
garner a Kings ransom . We can let Eli finish his career as
a Giant prepare Webb to be the starter in two years barring
injury to Eli . Parlay the picks into specific needs starting
with the O-line RB and LB positions . I would let Marshal
come back and compete . Get rid of Vernon or JPP we still
have free agency guys like Trai Turner G Eric Wood C and
a prominent Lb Melvin Ingram .
Let Richberg walk . Many moves to make but we have to get
the run game and the pass rush going again .
MARSHALL?  
Doomster : 11/10/2017 1:56 pm : link
Bub-bye!
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