Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner
 

Archived Thread

Wide Receiver Odell Beckham, Jr. in another context...

M.S. : 11/11/2017 10:36 am
What I have absolutely hated about the NY Giants offense is the 100% reliance on our super star wide receiver to break a play and take it to the house. Game after game.

Of course, it's fun to watch the amazing, sheer talent of OBJ, but the over-reliance on this guy masked a terrible flaw we are all too familiar with -- the absolute inability to control the tempo of a game with an effective blend of running and passing.

There has been no f-ing diversity to the Giants attack and the team ain't going anywhere until that gets fixed!

And that also means OBJ in a different context, where his out-of-this-world skills complement a lethal offensive attack rather than being the ENTIRE attack.

For those of a certain age, think back to the sleek Paul Warfield of the Miami Dolphins and what he brought to the table in the context of a multi-weapon offense behind a wonderful offensive line.

So here's the bottom line. We can either all drool over the supernova OBJ stats and continue our losing ways, or we can win championships with this guy being part of an integrated offense in which case his overall stats should go down.

.  
arcarsenal : 11/11/2017 10:44 am : link
You can still have a WR catching 90 balls in a strong offensive attack. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Atlanta had the best offense in football last year and Jones caught 83 balls for 1409 yards in just 14 games.

Your point here is sort of misguided. It's not that Beckham's numbers need to go down in the name of balance, it's that the numbers elsewhere need to go UP. I.e.. in the run game, more contributions from other pass catchers, etc.
RE: .  
M.S. : 11/11/2017 10:53 am : link
In comment 13685775 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
You can still have a WR catching 90 balls in a strong offensive attack. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Atlanta had the best offense in football last year and Jones caught 83 balls for 1409 yards in just 14 games.

Your point here is sort of misguided. It's not that Beckham's numbers need to go down in the name of balance, it's that the numbers elsewhere need to go UP. I.e.. in the run game, more contributions from other pass catchers, etc.

Either OBJ's stats go down or the number of passes thrown his way go down. Otherwise, it will be years and years of losing football.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 11/11/2017 10:56 am : link
In comment 13685787 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 13685775 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


You can still have a WR catching 90 balls in a strong offensive attack. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Atlanta had the best offense in football last year and Jones caught 83 balls for 1409 yards in just 14 games.

Your point here is sort of misguided. It's not that Beckham's numbers need to go down in the name of balance, it's that the numbers elsewhere need to go UP. I.e.. in the run game, more contributions from other pass catchers, etc.


Either OBJ's stats go down or the number of passes thrown his way go down. Otherwise, it will be years and years of losing football.


Says who?

Antonio Brown was targeted nearly 200 times in 2015 and had 136 receptions.

The Steelers had a top 5 offense.

Again - Beckham's production or target share does NOT need to decrease for the Giants offense to improve - everything around him does.
RE: RE: .  
ajr2456 : 11/11/2017 10:59 am : link
In comment 13685787 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 13685775 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


You can still have a WR catching 90 balls in a strong offensive attack. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Atlanta had the best offense in football last year and Jones caught 83 balls for 1409 yards in just 14 games.

Your point here is sort of misguided. It's not that Beckham's numbers need to go down in the name of balance, it's that the numbers elsewhere need to go UP. I.e.. in the run game, more contributions from other pass catchers, etc.


Either OBJ's stats go down or the number of passes thrown his way go down. Otherwise, it will be years and years of losing football.


You totally ignored Arcs point. Isnít the best way to score points to get the ball in your best players hands? The rest of the offense should compliment Odell and a running game, not Odell complimenting the rest of the offense.

Ideally you have an offense where Odell is catching 80-90 balls, a running game averaging 4-5 ypc and complimentary passing weapons that can get open when Odell isnít.
RE: RE: .  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/11/2017 11:01 am : link
In comment 13685787 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 13685775 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


You can still have a WR catching 90 balls in a strong offensive attack. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Atlanta had the best offense in football last year and Jones caught 83 balls for 1409 yards in just 14 games.

Your point here is sort of misguided. It's not that Beckham's numbers need to go down in the name of balance, it's that the numbers elsewhere need to go UP. I.e.. in the run game, more contributions from other pass catchers, etc.


Either OBJ's stats go down or the number of passes thrown his way go down. Otherwise, it will be years and years of losing football.

I agree with arc - I think you're slightly off the mark on this one. The rest of the offense needs to improve, which will keep drives alive longer, resulting in more offensive plays overall (and therefore more opportunities for contributions by the rest of the skill position players, by extension). In other words, Beckham can maintain his current statistical levels but if the rest of the offense improves, the percentage of contribution he represents will go down (as a function of a larger denominator).

It seems as though you're looking at the offense as a zero sum scenario when it's anything but. The offense needs to increase the the total array in order to improve; that doesn't require less contribution by Beckham.
Eh  
BigBlueShock : 11/11/2017 11:01 am : link
The OL struggles and inability to run the ball far precede Beckhams arrival. Blaming him for everything is getting absolutely ridiculous at this point. Perhaps he gets so many balls thrown his way because he's literally the only competent option? Every other WR has had problems consistently getting open. And there is still no run game.

Coughlin used to always preach balance. Even after Beckhams arrival. The only problem was, no matter how many times they ran the ball, they couldn't do it. You only recognize Beckhams numbers because he was literally the only one capable of putting them up.

This place has lost its damn mind.
RE: Eh  
M.S. : 11/11/2017 11:26 am : link
In comment 13685797 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
The OL struggles and inability to run the ball far precede Beckhams arrival. Blaming him for everything is getting absolutely ridiculous at this point. Perhaps he gets so many balls thrown his way because he's literally the only competent option? Every other WR has had problems consistently getting open. And there is still no run game.

Coughlin used to always preach balance. Even after Beckhams arrival. The only problem was, no matter how many times they ran the ball, they couldn't do it. You only recognize Beckhams numbers because he was literally the only one capable of putting them up.

This place has lost its damn mind.

Not blaming OBJ for anything. The blame is the over-reliance of the Giants offense on OBJ because the rest of the offense sucks.
RE: RE: RE: .  
M.S. : 11/11/2017 11:28 am : link
In comment 13685792 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 13685787 M.S. said:


Quote:


In comment 13685775 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


You can still have a WR catching 90 balls in a strong offensive attack. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Atlanta had the best offense in football last year and Jones caught 83 balls for 1409 yards in just 14 games.

Your point here is sort of misguided. It's not that Beckham's numbers need to go down in the name of balance, it's that the numbers elsewhere need to go UP. I.e.. in the run game, more contributions from other pass catchers, etc.


Either OBJ's stats go down or the number of passes thrown his way go down. Otherwise, it will be years and years of losing football.



You totally ignored Arcs point. Isnít the best way to score points to get the ball in your best players hands? The rest of the offense should compliment Odell and a running game, not Odell complimenting the rest of the offense.

Ideally you have an offense where Odell is catching 80-90 balls, a running game averaging 4-5 ypc and complimentary passing weapons that can get open when Odell isnít.

For the Giants offense to ever amount to anything, the complementing is a seamless 2-way street. Other players must complement OBJ... and OBJ must complement other players. If that doesn't happen, we are FUCKED. For years to come. Absolutely FUCKED.
.  
arcarsenal : 11/11/2017 11:32 am : link
There are two separate points here...

The Giants are over-reliant on Beckham offensively. That part is true.

However, the notion that his numbers need to decline in order for the Giants to improve simply is not.

The Giants offense hasn't been struggling because of Beckham's production-share, they've been struggling because they haven't been getting enough elsewhere.

We've largely struggled to run the football since Beckham has been here. A more effective ground game would extend drives and create more plays - which would mean that there would still be as many targets/opportunities for Beckham to make big plays.

His numbers absolutely do not have to decrease for the overall productivity of the offense to increase.

I can give you endless examples of top-tier offenses that had a WR have a big statistical season.
RE: .  
M.S. : 11/11/2017 11:37 am : link
In comment 13685833 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
There are two separate points here...

The Giants are over-reliant on Beckham offensively. That part is true.

However, the notion that his numbers need to decline in order for the Giants to improve simply is not.

The Giants offense hasn't been struggling because of Beckham's production-share, they've been struggling because they haven't been getting enough elsewhere.

We've largely struggled to run the football since Beckham has been here. A more effective ground game would extend drives and create more plays - which would mean that there would still be as many targets/opportunities for Beckham to make big plays.

His numbers absolutely do not have to decrease for the overall productivity of the offense to increase.

I can give you endless examples of top-tier offenses that had a WR have a big statistical season.

You're point is well made.
If anything the of Beckham should open up the field  
Larry in Pencilvania : 11/11/2017 11:51 am : link
For guys like Sheppard, Engram and a competent number two WR and running game. Unfortunately the offense is awful at this time. Playmakers need to make plays and make those around them better
RE: .  
Larry in Pencilvania : 11/11/2017 11:56 am : link
In comment 13685833 arcarsenal said:
Quote:


I can give you endless examples of top-tier offenses that had a WR have a big statistical season.


Hell the 2011 giants had 2 1000+ yard receivers and still had solid production from Ballard and Manningham
The Math is easy in this case  
pivo : 11/11/2017 12:04 pm : link
If you average a mediocre 50 offensive plays a game, that's 800 plays a season. If your superstar gets 150 looks a season, the other 650 plays need to be better. Simple.
two different personas  
Elite Mobster #32 : 11/11/2017 12:31 pm : link
Warfield was No Frills Quiet soft spoken.

Well guess what ? We got Odell Beckham the best in the league. He's not like that!
WE scored 420 points  
Doomster : 11/11/2017 12:35 pm : link
in TC's last year, with OBj......we scored 310 last year....and this year we are on pace for 258.....

Exactly, who was the offensive guru?
RE: .  
FStubbs : 11/11/2017 1:48 pm : link
In comment 13685833 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
There are two separate points here...

The Giants are over-reliant on Beckham offensively. That part is true.

However, the notion that his numbers need to decline in order for the Giants to improve simply is not.

The Giants offense hasn't been struggling because of Beckham's production-share, they've been struggling because they haven't been getting enough elsewhere.

We've largely struggled to run the football since Beckham has been here. A more effective ground game would extend drives and create more plays - which would mean that there would still be as many targets/opportunities for Beckham to make big plays.

His numbers absolutely do not have to decrease for the overall productivity of the offense to increase.

I can give you endless examples of top-tier offenses that had a WR have a big statistical season.


This. If anything if the offense had been more competent, Odell might even have BETTER numbers as defenses can't just key in on him.
If the rest of the offense was consistently productive...  
Dan in the Springs : 11/11/2017 2:17 pm : link
OBJ would lead the league in every stat. He's all the opposing defenses have to worry about. Could you imagine him in consistent man coverage single high?
Boom.....  
Bluesbreaker : 11/11/2017 3:27 pm : link
If the rest of the offense was consistently productive...
Dan in the Springs : 2:17 pm : link : reply
OBJ would lead the league in every stat. He's all the opposing defenses have to worry about. Could you imagine him in consistent man coverage single high?

Problem is and always has been quality RB Quality OL ..
The ability to run the ball is what makes Eli a top notch QB
the front office has blown it far too long ...
The selection of MacHandley just complicated it .
Improve the offensive line  
joeinpa : 11/11/2017 3:28 pm : link
More first downs = more plays= balanced offense
What we all know:  
old man : 11/11/2017 5:21 pm : link
(Even a fair+)Run game opens up the passing game, because the LB and secondary will 'lean' towards the interior. That 1/2-1 step lean will usually make the quick out, short out, screen , quick slant work... even Mcs 3rd and 4 route on a 3rd and 6 down because of that small but important extra space.
Staying within the context of Mcs background, when Lacy and other backs would gain 3-4-5 yards, the quick outs to Cobb and especially Nelson on 3rd down would move the chains.
All that said,it wouldnt perclude OBJ from a high # of targets but instead a running game would make the other receivers better targets, enhancing what OBJ CAN do.
But our Silly Putty OL(TY JR :-( )> clusterfail.
Brutal post  
UConn4523 : 11/11/2017 6:40 pm : link
these ultimatum ideas are so lazy.
No offense  
hitdog42 : 11/11/2017 7:11 pm : link
But this isnít a very accurate assessment of why obj has stats, why the offense stinks, or anything for that matter.
Back to the Corner