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Raanan: "Curious calls" by Steve Spagnuolo

Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/11/2017 10:44 am
Quote:
Among the complaints that have surfaced in recent weeks is Spagnuolo having complicated the Giantsí defense to the point of players not knowing their assignments during games. In particular, they have been criticized for having gotten away from what works best with their personnel -- press-man on the outside -- and running more deceptive zones instead.

It has created mass confusion and far too many miscommunications.

...

The Giantsí answer for this Sunday against the San Francisco 49ers and beyond is to simplify things. Expect them to call fewer coverages and concentrate on what theyíve done best over the past year and a half.

Curious calls: More has been less for Giants' defense under Steve Spagnuolo - ( New Window )
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arcarsenal : 11/11/2017 10:45 am : link
Wasn't this the same stuff everyone was complaining about when Fewell was here?
RE: .  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/11/2017 10:47 am : link
In comment 13685777 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Wasn't this the same stuff everyone was complaining about when Fewell was here?


We've heard this many times over the years... seems like on both offense and defense ... under various regimes...
Ground hog day  
bradshaw44 : 11/11/2017 10:51 am : link
...
what a mess  
sundayatone : 11/11/2017 10:52 am : link
and 8 games to go,sadly, the end is not near.
Problem is  
Sammo85 : 11/11/2017 10:53 am : link
The pass rush on the outside has been poor from last year. The LB group is also playing much slower. Casillas isnít any good to begin with. Robinson is not playing like he did last year. Goodson has been out and overall meh when heís been in.

I expect them to win tomorrow but they will then promptly get slaughtered several weeks straight.
Ah, the old  
Pete in MD : 11/11/2017 10:56 am : link
"simplify the offense/defense" plan.
Iíve been surprised that for the most part  
mfsd : 11/11/2017 11:25 am : link
the pitchforks have been out for McAdoo while Spags has largely gotten a pass. This is a defense that was excellent last season, and despite a couple key injuries really has no business being as embarrassing as it has been

Everyone deserves some blame for this disaster
I have been a huge Spagnuolo fan  
Powerclean765 : 11/11/2017 11:25 am : link
but it appears he's butchered a highly talented D.
The Offense and Specials stunk last year but the D was good - he doesn't have any excuses.

I remember his "graduate school" stuff with the D during camp. He is asking too much of his players. That's what happens when you have 6 All Pros - you're imagination goes wild.

I'm mixed on whether I want him to return. Shocked I'm saying that after last year. We even had the Parcels and the '86 Giants gushing how good they were. Shocking butcher job by Spags & Co.
*Apologies  
Powerclean765 : 11/11/2017 11:26 am : link
Parcells.
RE: RE: .  
old man : 11/11/2017 11:26 am : link
In comment 13685780 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 13685777 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Wasn't this the same stuff everyone was complaining about when Fewell was here?



We've heard this many times over the years... seems like on both offense and defense ... under various regimes...


I think in part OC geniuses have designed similar looking plays that force D's to recognize which one of the variations it is, and react accordingly to that play. The more they have to process to get the correct play, the longer it takes...the longer it takes means 11 guys have to all see the right variation correctly, and act REACT accordingly. D's by nature are a reactive group as it is...keep them in the processing mode longer; advantage grows to the O. Getting the right players on D to process quickly enough out of the 11 to stop or limit gains really puts the D at a disadvantage. So easy to see or guess the play incorrectly and you're already a 2 steps behind.
Also doesn't help when your D starters on on the sidelines.
That said, SS seems to be guessing D calls , and with the wrong players on the field a lot this season.
Murphy's Law season.
Here come the excuses  
Massgman : 11/11/2017 11:46 am : link
Blah blah blah
well lucky for them tomorrow  
micky : 11/11/2017 11:51 am : link
they can be all confused and all and still have a cakewalk of a game vs the 9'ers. believe it or not Niners are way worse.

easy week to get away with bad play
Simplify...  
KingBlue : 11/11/2017 11:58 am : link
I totally agree with this....




- Jersey Joe
RE: well lucky for them tomorrow  
Danny Kanell : 11/11/2017 11:59 am : link
In comment 13685844 micky said:
Quote:
they can be all confused and all and still have a cakewalk of a game vs the 9'ers. believe it or not Niners are way worse.

easy week to get away with bad play


I think we are going to lose tomorrow. This is the biggest mess of a Giant team Iíve seen in my 35 years of being a fan. This team is a disaster.
DTs  
idiotsavant : 11/11/2017 12:09 pm : link
Rookie, a decent one, but a rookie, two jags and a pro-bowler in snacks.

DEs. Three injured, one new jag and one with potential.

LBs. Goodson and Casillas are vastly over rated.

DRC out, then possibly the best individual player on the team, in jackrabbit Jenkins, out. Possibly last week had some elements of protest on this front.

Zone: looks like Sometimes it synchs and provides ints .

I do prefer corners in man overall though.

No coach is safe here right now big picture.
.  
arcarsenal : 11/11/2017 12:11 pm : link
Injuries and suspensions aren't really even an excuse - this defense wasn't the same as last year from night one in Dallas.

Things have obviously gotten worse as a result of some of the above and the way this season has gone in general - but the defense just hasn't resembled that same unit we saw for most of last year at any point this year.

Spagnuolo deserves criticism.
Why is it  
BigBlueinChicago : 11/11/2017 12:12 pm : link
that when the defense is sucking its always due to the defense being "too complicated" and thus, needs to be simplified?

I forget what game it was . maybe 3rd.  
idiotsavant : 11/11/2017 12:24 pm : link
One of those very timely, well needed, game changing type heroic sack fumbles. Got the turnover.

O comes out in 11. Typical macadoo / sully - passive blocking, short pass, INT gave the ball right back.

Seems like little by little some on D started to mail it in.

But. To be fair. Nobody is safe.
.  
Stan in LA : 11/11/2017 12:25 pm : link
RE: .  
arcarsenal : 11/11/2017 12:26 pm : link
In comment 13685871 Stan in LA said:
Quote:


How'd things go in 2015?
Let's face it....  
Doomster : 11/11/2017 12:28 pm : link
whenever our guy catches a pass, he is almost immediately tackled.....

Their guys catch a pass, and they are wide pen and still running.....

Eli, 11 ypc, Goff 22 ypc.....
Same story...  
silverfox : 11/11/2017 12:58 pm : link
....different shitty year.
this is why the talent isnt matching the performance this year  
hitdog42 : 11/11/2017 1:12 pm : link
We have press cover man corners playing zone.
we have Pass rushing DEs that are worried more about contain than getting up field.
We have a thumping safety that has been taken out of his position of comfort.
we have DTs dropping into coverage.
Spags is trying to outsmart and outthink the offense and win with his play calls and scheme instead of win with the talent they have on the field.

when coaches make it about their calls and not the players playing fast and free and to their strengths... then the play speaks for itself.

Here are the numbers that count:  
MOOPS : 11/11/2017 1:34 pm : link
Last in scoring in the NFC, tied for 29th in the NFL.
14th of 16 in NFC in points allowed, 25th in points allowed in the NFL.
RE: this is why the talent isnt matching the performance this year  
WillVAB : 11/11/2017 1:35 pm : link
In comment 13685920 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
We have press cover man corners playing zone.
we have Pass rushing DEs that are worried more about contain than getting up field.
We have a thumping safety that has been taken out of his position of comfort.
we have DTs dropping into coverage.
Spags is trying to outsmart and outthink the offense and win with his play calls and scheme instead of win with the talent they have on the field.

when coaches make it about their calls and not the players playing fast and free and to their strengths... then the play speaks for itself.


I think part of the reason is the defense is devoid of talent at the LB position. If the corners are playing man and the QB takes off, they donít have the LBs to clean it up and it results in a big gain. The LBs canít cover, so you have to experiment with exotic zones to mix up the looks for the QB. The LBs canít defend the run sideline to sideline, so the DEs have to prioritize containment otherwise theyíll get gashed off the edge.
So we suck moose balls on both  
idiotsavant : 11/11/2017 1:39 pm : link
Sides
Not playing man press when you have Jenkins and Apple  
est1986 : 11/11/2017 1:50 pm : link
Is killing me. Drc is a man cover guy too. You man up and make them make a play over DRC or Jack Rabbit. This team, particularly the defense, is too good on paper to look this bad. Coaching hasnít helped this team this season.
Will. Probably correct  
idiotsavant : 11/11/2017 1:52 pm : link
Possibly a 5-0-6

Or call it a 4-1-6

Kennard basically would go to the line on every play, do that's your 5th DL. So you get rush and try to stop the run at the line w 5 same time.

Collins would have some lb responsibilities. As you say, sideline, and two additional safeties, Adams and Thompson for usual safety roles.

Keep Street players like munson and slow roster lbs on the bench.
Can get heat on QB with 4  
Rjanyg : 11/11/2017 2:07 pm : link
So Spag's is over-scheming.
Arc's love for Perry Fewell will never be extinguished  
Greg from LI : 11/11/2017 3:12 pm : link
.
RE: Will. Probably correct  
WillVAB : 11/11/2017 3:26 pm : link
In comment 13685956 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
Possibly a 5-0-6

Or call it a 4-1-6

Kennard basically would go to the line on every play, do that's your 5th DL. So you get rush and try to stop the run at the line w 5 same time.

Collins would have some lb responsibilities. As you say, sideline, and two additional safeties, Adams and Thompson for usual safety roles.

Keep Street players like munson and slow roster lbs on the bench.


This is a lost year. This regime or the next one needs to make a little better effort at the LB position besides FA JAGs and late round picks.
For sure will  
idiotsavant : 11/11/2017 3:48 pm : link
Why I favor trade downs. We need to rationalize the team.

Overall I think the lb position may be diverging into safety or linesmen.

Or the rare blue goose true Mike that can also cover or drop to zone very well.
RE: this is why the talent isnt matching the performance this year  
adamg : 11/11/2017 4:09 pm : link
In comment 13685920 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
We have press cover man corners playing zone.
we have Pass rushing DEs that are worried more about contain than getting up field.
We have a thumping safety that has been taken out of his position of comfort.
we have DTs dropping into coverage.
Spags is trying to outsmart and outthink the offense and win with his play calls and scheme instead of win with the talent they have on the field.

when coaches make it about their calls and not the players playing fast and free and to their strengths... then the play speaks for itself.


+1
Hopefully get back to that.  
idiotsavant : 11/11/2017 4:17 pm : link
But Street linebackers may force some variation.
RE: Arc's love for Perry Fewell will never be extinguished  
arcarsenal : 11/11/2017 4:26 pm : link
In comment 13686002 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
.


LOL, it's just funny that these were the same exact things I was reading when he was here.

"He needs to play press man!"

"All of the DB's are confused - no one knows their assignments, blown coverages!"

"We need to be an attacking defense like Spags had!"

Just hoping that maybe now people will realize that personnel does and will always play a major role in performance - which is why this defense was historically horrendous in 2015 under Spagnuolo and one of the best in football the very next year.

And there's no one-size-fits-all way to play defense. Whenever a defense doesn't play well, people think it's because we're not "attacking" enough or playing too much zone.

Playing press man and blitzing do not necessarily make a defense good. If it were that easy, a lot of DC's in this league would be a hell of a lot more successful.
RE: RE: this is why the talent isnt matching the performance this year  
LauderdaleMatty : 11/11/2017 4:29 pm : link
In comment 13685939 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 13685920 hitdog42 said:


Quote:


We have press cover man corners playing zone.
we have Pass rushing DEs that are worried more about contain than getting up field.
We have a thumping safety that has been taken out of his position of comfort.
we have DTs dropping into coverage.
Spags is trying to outsmart and outthink the offense and win with his play calls and scheme instead of win with the talent they have on the field.

when coaches make it about their calls and not the players playing fast and free and to their strengths... then the play speaks for itself.




I think part of the reason is the defense is devoid of talent at the LB position. If the corners are playing man and the QB takes off, they donít have the LBs to clean it up and it results in a big gain. The LBs canít cover, so you have to experiment with exotic zones to mix up the looks for the QB. The LBs canít defend the run sideline to sideline, so the DEs have to prioritize containment otherwise theyíll get gashed off the edge.


Reese has made it obvious he's going To invest other places way before LB. Is what it is. Plenty of people here defended Reese for
This. One day the Giants may have great Linebackers again. But I don't think it will happen until they get a whole new front office
I said this in my Eli Apple thread.  
JoeyBigBlue : 11/11/2017 4:31 pm : link
Our 3 corners are man to man corners. They excel in a man to man scheme. We played man all last season to great success. Iím guessing he switched to zone to stop TEs and and RBs abusing our shitty linebackers in the middle of the field and on the flats respectively.
Which is another reason to play 5-0-6  
idiotsavant : 11/11/2017 4:35 pm : link
Get the lbs off the damn field.

Until we have ones worth using.
Carl Banks has been saying pretty much all year  
jlukes : 11/11/2017 7:35 pm : link
that he doesn't understand why Spags changed the scheme so much from last year
Wait, does this explain why this defense has been pretty lame since  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/11/2017 7:38 pm : link
week 1?
RE: this is why the talent isnt matching the performance this year  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/11/2017 7:42 pm : link
In comment 13685920 hitdog42 said:
Quote:

we have Pass rushing DEs that are worried more about contain than getting up field.
We have a thumping safety that has been taken out of his position of comfort.
we have DTs dropping into coverage.


Well, I think you're getting ahead of yourself a bit.

They were a great run defense last year because of the DEs they had. Not good, great.

And Collins has said himself he's been playing hurt.

And linemen occasionally dropping into coverage has been Spagnuolo's thing since 2007. Sometimes he does that.
The defense will play better tomorrow..  
EricJ : 11/11/2017 7:54 pm : link
not only because they have nowhere to go but UP but because they are playing a 3rd grade offense. With that QB in San Fran, they have no excuse NOT playing man2man.

I see lots of comments about Collins not looking good. In his first year when everyone wanted to call him a bust, I was saying that the guy was just thinking too much. Trying to react to his assignment. Trying to learn where the coach wanted him to be and he was not just playing using instincts. That all came together for him last year. I can see it happening again this year... guys are thinking too much and looking as if they are out of position. Lots of confusion and this is why Collins is not effective.
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