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Microcosm of bigger debate: OBJ vs A Donald

dee-fense : 11/12/2017 11:50 am
There are various debates that perpetuate here:

Should GM (old or new) have more focus on trenches. (vs idealogy of taking WR and DBs higher on most occasions..yes they did draft 3 of our OL high and missed for most part but largely focus has been less on trenches that some here would prefer, me included).

Is the new NFL "basketball on grass" really the best path to SB.

Is OBJ a transcendent talent that breaks all generally accepted rules of managing a player (from discipline to cap hit).

I don't post often and this year is such a bad time to be on this board. But I have been a fan since '68, love the Gmen through thick and thin (it's fun to ride the crests and valleys as it parallels life's challenges and teaches perserverence and its rewards...but that's me, others can bail out if they want...no judgement here).

I think I think that in hindsight I might argue that taking ADonald would have put this team in a better position today. But it is just a smaller part of the larger discussion. Obviously it's not all OBJ's fault we have had all bad teams since he has been here (other than last year and one could argue his "routine" didn't lead to playoff greatness, boat trip or not doesn't matter. Chips are down. LT wins the game, OBJ did not. You can take (largely OBJ out of a game. You can't take LT out of a game with some plan...just ask Joe Gibbs. You can't take ADonald out of a game either.

I waited forever for Parcells to make us great again. Lionel Manuel, Steven Baker, Bobby Johnson....woohoo. Get my point?
New England never takes a WR high. Other than Moss, who has been an OBJ-like talent that Tom Brady has helped him win 5 SBs? (And Moss didn't even get 1 as our D made it impossible most would argue).

So I think trenches and Deefense are hallmarks of any great football team. Heck Robert Kraft even said to Mara they wouldn't have beaten Gmen in last SB (ie, Falcon D folded unlike our SB teams' great defenses).

Can't argue OBJ is not amazing talent. But I don't care about the fantasy football culture of today. I care about The New York Football Giants as a bedrock of excellence in the NFL. Where has that gone? Maybe the same place as LT, Harry Carson, Michael Strahan, Carl Banks...the dustbins of Gmen history I guess.

I guess I'm officially an old timer now. But I still love watching a Bears '85 or Ravens '00 defense (to saying nothing or the joy of watching our great SB winning Ds) knock the snot out of a team and just impose its' will on another team. Isn't that was football was supposed to be about. Just being more physically dominant. Most GMs and astute NFL competition assessors will still say so...even our own Phil Simms who was a tough bugger would say, "we beat teams cuz our big guys would beat up their big guys. We don't win those games without LT dominating"

Long winded for some but I hope either Reese or Mara adjust and get back to truly being dominant in trenches and on D instead of just talking about being "heavy handed.'


Curious if you could turn the clock back, would you take Donald instead of OBJ. I would. Hypothetical? Sure but maybe a ideology worth thinking about in today's fantasy culture. (And not a complete coincidence to me that NFL interest is on the wane as fantasy focus has grown...but who knows? We can save that for another day)

Go Gmen. Let's get this turned around! Enjoy your Sunday however you choose to enjoy this season.

DEE-FENSE



Wouldn't mind a first two round selection  
adamg : 11/12/2017 12:01 pm : link
Going Bradley Chubb and Billy Price.

I think the biggest issue with the FO has been the inability to address OL issues with FA. Schwartz was a huge misstep not just because he failed to show up on game day but it seemed to limit the FO in its use of FA to address OL in the years since, like they're snake-bit.

Hopefully this is the year they do go all out in that regard.
In a redraft  
thomasa510 : 11/12/2017 12:01 pm : link
In a redraft knowing what I know now I go obj. He's the transcends talent that is harder to replace.
The dominant WR may not have the same impact  
est1986 : 11/12/2017 12:01 pm : link
As a dominant 3 down DT (I think Donald is more impactful to a gameplan).... But no player does more to boost my franchise's value than OBJ.... It's like asking if you would take Kobe or Lebron in the late 2000's.
Last 7 years  
eclipz928 : 11/12/2017 12:06 pm : link
2010 Draft
Jason Pierre-Paul - 1st Rd, DE
Linval Joseph - 2nd Rd, DT

2011 Draft
Marvin Austin - 2nd Rd, DT

2013 Draft
Jonathan Hankins - 2nd Rd, DT
Damontre Moore - 3rd Rd, DE

2014 Draft
Jay Bromley - 3rd Rd, DT

2015 Draft
Owamagbe Odighizuwa - 3rd Rd, DE

2017 Draft
Dalvin Tomlinson - 2nd Rd, DT
Avery Moss - 5th Rd, DE

It hasn't always worked out, but this team consistently has given attention to the Defensive Line in the draft. Devoting more 1st round and high draft picks would have meant neglecting other areas of need.
The game of football is still won in the trenches.  
Britt in VA : 11/12/2017 12:20 pm : link
.
I'd take Zack Martin.  
LauderdaleMatty : 11/12/2017 12:25 pm : link
WRs are a dime a dozen. Martin would have anchored a shitty line and made Eli better
RE: Last 7 years  
WillVAB : 11/12/2017 12:25 pm : link
In comment 13686575 eclipz928 said:
Quote:
2010 Draft
Jason Pierre-Paul - 1st Rd, DE
Linval Joseph - 2nd Rd, DT

2011 Draft
Marvin Austin - 2nd Rd, DT

2013 Draft
Jonathan Hankins - 2nd Rd, DT
Damontre Moore - 3rd Rd, DE

2014 Draft
Jay Bromley - 3rd Rd, DT

2015 Draft
Owamagbe Odighizuwa - 3rd Rd, DE

2017 Draft
Dalvin Tomlinson - 2nd Rd, DT
Avery Moss - 5th Rd, DE

It hasn't always worked out, but this team consistently has given attention to the Defensive Line in the draft. Devoting more 1st round and high draft picks would have meant neglecting other areas of need.


This is disingenuous. The real story is Reese hasnít made anywhere near the commitment to pass rushers as they did 10 years ago. The past high pick DE was JPP and that was 10 years ago. The DT picks over the years were the result of mismanagement of players under team control. They let LJ walk so they drafted Hankins. They let Hankins walk so they drafted Tomlinson.
With the amount of grief Odell gets  
ajr2456 : 11/12/2017 12:27 pm : link
I canít imagine what this board would be like when Donald held out this year.

I donít think passing up on Donald hurt the Giants. Odell+Snacks+Tomlinson is probably a better haul. Tomlinson has played well of late.
RE: RE: Last 7 years  
ajr2456 : 11/12/2017 12:29 pm : link
In comment 13686591 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 13686575 eclipz928 said:


Quote:


2010 Draft
Jason Pierre-Paul - 1st Rd, DE
Linval Joseph - 2nd Rd, DT

2011 Draft
Marvin Austin - 2nd Rd, DT

2013 Draft
Jonathan Hankins - 2nd Rd, DT
Damontre Moore - 3rd Rd, DE

2014 Draft
Jay Bromley - 3rd Rd, DT

2015 Draft
Owamagbe Odighizuwa - 3rd Rd, DE

2017 Draft
Dalvin Tomlinson - 2nd Rd, DT
Avery Moss - 5th Rd, DE

It hasn't always worked out, but this team consistently has given attention to the Defensive Line in the draft. Devoting more 1st round and high draft picks would have meant neglecting other areas of need.



This is disingenuous. The real story is Reese hasnít made anywhere near the commitment to pass rushers as they did 10 years ago. The past high pick DE was JPP and that was 10 years ago. The DT picks over the years were the result of mismanagement of players under team control. They let LJ walk so they drafted Hankins. They let Hankins walk so they drafted Tomlinson.


The Hankins-Tomlinson one seems to be negligible but LJ has turned into one of the best DTs in the league
Still... you win games and championships in the trenches...  
EricJ : 11/12/2017 12:39 pm : link
if your team is weak in that area, it does not matter what kind of generational WR you have.

The team would be better if we were able to assemble a dominant OL with a dominant run game and surround that with average WRs. So, not that these guys are available or anything but imagine our team as follows...
Dominant OL
Darkwa at RB
Engram at TE
Guys "like" this at WR (good enough to win)
Shepard
Golden Tate
Funchess
Robbie Anderson
Ok  
NikkiMac : 11/12/2017 12:47 pm : link
So what can we get for OBJ ?...
Very interesting discussion, but not sure how its relevant  
Emil : 11/12/2017 1:02 pm : link
Sure you win in the trenches, I share that view, but it's not like the organization has ignored the DL. Our starting 4 when healthy is very good. Let's also not forget, for better or for worse that Donald does not fit what the Giants look for in a DT. He is simply undersized for the Giants preference. It's possible they would never have taken him.

Another factor is have you seen how expensive good DTs are in this league? Donald is going to get a bigger contract than Suh did, which was 6 years 114 mil. That's a huge contract for a player who doesn't have anything to do, directly, with scoring TDs. Also, top echelon DTs tend to cost a little less than good DEs, who I would argue make a bigger difference vs the run and pass week to week. I actually think the Giants approach to the DT position in today's NFL makes a lot of sense.
RE: Ok  
Emil : 11/12/2017 1:02 pm : link
In comment 13686608 NikkiMac said:
Quote:
So what can we get for OBJ ?...


Don't even think that is a serious consideration. He is part of the solution going forward.
Same here ...  
Bluesbreaker : 11/12/2017 1:17 pm : link
Wouldn't mind a first two round selection
adamg : 12:01 pm : link : reply
Going Bradley Chubb and Billy Price.

I think the biggest issue with the FO has been the inability to address OL issues with FA. Schwartz was a huge misstep not just because he failed to show up on game day but it seemed to limit the FO in its use of FA to address OL in the years since, like they're snake-bit.

Hopefully this is the year they do go all out in that regard.

If Barkley is gone and someone wants to move up you could
possibly get Chub DL he is a beast we need pass rush too .
Then take a RB at the top of round #2
RE: Same here ...  
adamg : 11/12/2017 1:21 pm : link
In comment 13686643 Bluesbreaker said:
Quote:
Wouldn't mind a first two round selection
adamg : 12:01 pm : link : reply
Going Bradley Chubb and Billy Price.

I think the biggest issue with the FO has been the inability to address OL issues with FA. Schwartz was a huge misstep not just because he failed to show up on game day but it seemed to limit the FO in its use of FA to address OL in the years since, like they're snake-bit.

Hopefully this is the year they do go all out in that regard.

If Barkley is gone and someone wants to move up you could
possibly get Chub DL he is a beast we need pass rush too .
Then take a RB at the top of round #2


There are a lot of good RBs coming out. If Barkley isn't in the cards, we can get a good one in the third.
OBJ sells more jerseys and brings in new fans  
SHO'NUFF : 11/12/2017 1:53 pm : link
the casual fan won't know about the trenches.
"I care about The New York Football Giants as a bedrock of excellence"  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/12/2017 2:25 pm : link
Where has that gone?

More like what years are you talking about? They haven't been anything close to consistently excellent since LT played here. Even everybody's favorite saint Tom Coughlin missed the playoffs a bunch.
That draft,  
mrvax : 11/12/2017 2:36 pm : link
I went all in for Donald. In hindsight, I stay with OBJ.
Donald is great, but  
section125 : 11/12/2017 3:11 pm : link
OBJ is better and would have a greater impact on a game's outcome. That is not a knock on Donald, one of the best DLineman in the NFL.
RE: The game of football is still won in the trenches.  
Tesla : 11/12/2017 3:21 pm : link
In comment 13686585 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
.


So New England has been the best team in football over the past 15 years because of their dominant offensive and defensive lines?
Take Donald over OBJ  
joe48 : 11/12/2017 6:15 pm : link
Take defense. OBJ too much drama. Donald is a game changer on defense.
Beckham, Donald and Martin  
Ira : 11/12/2017 6:20 pm : link
You can't go wrong with any of them.
Have to ask  
SethFromAstoria : 11/12/2017 6:52 pm : link
This without being rude so bear with me and sorry if I insult your complete confusion if you say Donald. I've now referenced this a few times but at the town Hal prior to the season John Mara said they basically would have a full team of Beckham in an ideal world.

The quick point about the drama and Odell Beckham is if you've ever watched a giant game with him in it, there is no way you can tell me there is a single game that Odell didn't care or try to win more than everyone aside from the QB. The whole thing g about him is a myth that the team laughs at or acts fed up to get the media off their asses. He plays injured, he runs hard on every route.....

It's a shame that the media managed to damage his image based on one game that they snowballed into this idea that the team thinks he is lazy and a bad teammate etc... They don't think it. And he will be here. Signed. Get used to it. And good for us because he is the type of player you hope to find and doubt is possible
I think the bigger debate is overall roster construction  
Bockman : 11/12/2017 6:59 pm : link
and resulting prioritization of certain positions over others. It's hinted at in regards to Donald vs OBJ but that's not the straw that's breaking the Giants' back at the moment.

O-Line play is down across the league and the successful teams will adjust as soon as they can. The entire league is basically shitty o-line, quick passes and bend-but-don't-break defenses.

I feel like the first team that bases their roster on amazing O- and D-lines and throws deep a ton will dominate the NFL. In that system, the skill position players basically won't matter much.
Although I Would  
Spike13 : 11/12/2017 7:51 pm : link
Use Beckum, to stockpile picks, and get back to trench warfare, I don't think Donald!s talent is equal to that of Beckum. OBJ, is a threat to change the game, on any play. I've seen Donald, have less than stellar games, and to be quite frank, Ziggy Ansah, played much better against us then Donald, did. From a fans perspective, I have only seen two defensive ends control the LOS, in my lifetime, and that was White, & Strahan. If Donald possessed that kind of talent, it would warrant picking him over OBJ.

On an aside, one thing that confused me with Spags, this year was his use of the Linebacking corps. Our LB'ers' were exposed in coverage, yet again, all year. IMHO, our LB'ers, are built for short burst, downhill play, and should be attacking the LOS, more. I am also of the opinion that our defense would have been better in a 3-4 base this year, as our ends have gotten upfield, but have not contained all year.
RE: Take Donald over OBJ  
ajr2456 : 11/12/2017 7:59 pm : link
In comment 13687454 joe48 said:
Quote:
Take defense. OBJ too much drama. Donald is a game changer on defense.


Darnold held out of camp this offseason..
I wanted Donald in that draft  
AcesUp : 11/12/2017 8:08 pm : link
But OBJ has the rare ability to completely take over a game. The key word is "rare", there really aren't that many non-QBs that can make that case. Maybe 2 or 3 other guys?

He's not just a matchup problem for defenses, he's carried our entire offense and broken off game defining plays with regularity. Donald is a monster, the best at his position, but he just doesn't have the same impact. Baggage and all, it's still a no brainer.
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