The Giants have all but telegraphed that a QB is a top consideration in early rounds next April. I think the top 3 qbs are Rosen, Darnold, and Mayfield. And all three had strong performances yesterday.
1. Sam Darnold - I think he is actually the all around best QB of the three, but has more to learn. Love his arm, love his demeanor. Comes from a blue collar background. Best described as having an aw shucks attitude. Who does that sound like? He has started to make better decisions with the football, but still forces the issue when the team needs to make a play. He had great upside, but if the Browns earn the number 1 pick, I bet he stays in school.
2. Josh Rosen - I love this kids arm talent. You watch him and you see elite passing ability. He is putting up great numbers while leading an offense that has very little talent. He is getting better at sensing pressure and manages not to take sacks despite lacking elite athleticism. However, the word continues to be that Rosen is arrogant, may not be personally liked by his teammates, and is described as simply being an ass. Who knows what is true and what isn't, but he is a lightning rod at this point, and do the Giants need any more of those.
3. Baker Mayfield - This kid can just play ball! I've paid more and more attention to him, and he impresses every week. The knock on him is two fold. Is he too short, and is he strictly an off script player? My amateur opinion is no, he can run an offense, probably a version of the west coast, on script, and if the 6'0" Drew Brees can be a hall of Fame player, Mayfield can start in this league. If the Giants are going to go forward with even 80% of the offensive line they currently have, then a mobile but pass first qb is on the list. He does have an alcohol related incident in his past. But he is a proven leader, fiery player, leads by example, and is a winner. Maybe scouts are making too much of his height.
So BBI, who do you want? I can see good arguments for all three. If I'm the Giants, I think the following.
1. Cleveland gets the first pick. And Darnold stays in school. So he won't be an option.
2. Love Rosens talent, but I just can't add his red flags to this team right now. Not after this season.
3. I go with Mayfield (today, could change my mind) height be damned. If you have OBJ, Engram, and a commitment to the run game, then you can easily scheme around him being the height of Brees.
How bout you BBI?
Did anyone see Linval Joseph today? We have DRC instead, super good idea. So we piss away all that money on a fragile CB who gets suspended and has been a failure every place he's been. We could have paid Linval and spent that money on the OL or LBs but no, we needed a loud mouthed CB who quits on his team and again has never won a thing. This organization sucks from the owner all the way down, who gives a fuck what pick we have?
Joey, you seem more negative than usual. I won't argue about how poorly the team has played, or how little confidence we should have in Reese and company, but I still don't want Tunsil, would take OBJ over an OC every time. Valid point on Gurly over Flowers,but he did come into the league with major injury concerns.
Completely with you on the play of Apple and DRC. We can throw Jenkins in there too.
Rosen is not Jewish. His mother isn’t and his father is an Atheist. Josh has not identified as Jewish.mode=2&thread=559811&show_all=1#13686964]13686964[/url] Milton said:
I want the QB who wins the talent contest, not the popularity contest.
Wonder no more, they don't watch them, but they continue to arrogantly spout uninformed opinions.
Quote:
Allen looked excellent last night until injuring his shoulder or throwing arm. I’ve watched probably +90% of Allen’s snaps this season and it amazes me to see the lack of talent around him and the toughness that he displays. His playing style resembles a mix of Favre/Romo/Roethlisberger.
I like Allen but have not watched enough of him to have an informed opinion yet. My worry is that Allen is all big arm, and little touch. Love his story though.
Josh sort of grew into himself just recently and at times he comes across as a superhero just realizing he has a special gift as he fires howotizers to pedestrian wide receivers when he probably should tuck the ball or check down. Building off of that point, you get the feeling that Allen forces some balls because if he waited for clear separation then he would only attempt a few passes each game, thus he takes more risks than he should due to his desire to move the ball and that supreme trust in his arm. Again, you can’t really overstate just how poor his supporting talent is.
Quote:
Are the two top rated guys and it isn't even close. Reading the opinions here I wonder if posters actually watch the games ?
Wonder no more, they don't watch them, but they continue to arrogantly spout uninformed opinions.
No doubt top two are Darnold and Rosen
Quote:
In comment 13686939 BurberryManning said:
Quote:
Allen looked excellent last night until injuring his shoulder or throwing arm. I’ve watched probably +90% of Allen’s snaps this season and it amazes me to see the lack of talent around him and the toughness that he displays. His playing style resembles a mix of Favre/Romo/Roethlisberger.
I like Allen but have not watched enough of him to have an informed opinion yet. My worry is that Allen is all big arm, and little touch. Love his story though.
Allen’s touch is difficult to evaluate but a great point, Emil.
Josh sort of grew into himself just recently and at times he comes across as a superhero just realizing he has a special gift as he fires howotizers to pedestrian wide receivers when he probably should tuck the ball or check down. Building off of that point, you get the feeling that Allen forces some balls because if he waited for clear separation then he would only attempt a few passes each game, thus he takes more risks than he should due to his desire to move the ball and that supreme trust in his arm. Again, you can’t really overstate just how poor his supporting talent is.
All very true
You have to think this all comes down to the interview.
Darnold needs to stay in school.
Not a fan of Jackson, but he might be a NFL QB.
I prefer the 'none of the above' answer.
If a trade down is possible go OL.Or else you will David Carr-itis and young QB. Any variety of teams should want our spot to grab a QB, and if a top 5 team, swap out and try to get an OL at 5 and again at 37(or move up from there if possible).
But since our NYFG are the anti-Belichick re: disclosure, it'll be QB or BPA.
Quote:
In comment 13687309 Emil said:
Quote:
In comment 13686939 BurberryManning said:
Quote:
Allen looked excellent last night until injuring his shoulder or throwing arm. I’ve watched probably +90% of Allen’s snaps this season and it amazes me to see the lack of talent around him and the toughness that he displays. His playing style resembles a mix of Favre/Romo/Roethlisberger.
I like Allen but have not watched enough of him to have an informed opinion yet. My worry is that Allen is all big arm, and little touch. Love his story though.
Allen’s touch is difficult to evaluate but a great point, Emil.
Josh sort of grew into himself just recently and at times he comes across as a superhero just realizing he has a special gift as he fires howotizers to pedestrian wide receivers when he probably should tuck the ball or check down. Building off of that point, you get the feeling that Allen forces some balls because if he waited for clear separation then he would only attempt a few passes each game, thus he takes more risks than he should due to his desire to move the ball and that supreme trust in his arm. Again, you can’t really overstate just how poor his supporting talent is.
All very true
You have to think this all comes down to the interview.
I’m a big fan of Allen but I’ll add that I have a lingering question with regards to his intelligence; forgive my cosmopolitan bias but Allen’s interviews buttress the “small town farm hand” label that he’s been given, whereas a guy like Rosen was groomed to be an engaging and articulate public personality. Allen’s passion for the game is unquestionable but I’d like to be more sure of his ability to process complex schemes at a high rate. To your point, interviews should shed much more light on this subject.
Rosen is not Jewish. His mother isn’t and his father is an Atheist.
Did anyone see Linval Joseph today? We have DRC instead, super good idea. So we piss away all that money on a fragile CB who gets suspended and has been a failure every place he's been. We could have paid Linval and spent that money on the OL or LBs but no, we needed a loud mouthed CB who quits on his team and again has never won a thing. This organization sucks from the owner all the way down, who gives a fuck what pick we have?
And Pugh the year before Beckham could’ve been Deandre Hopkins.
There is zero chance of this happening. Mara isn't like fans. He knows what Eli represents. He's playing as long as he wants.
Quote:
2018 will be Eli’s farewell tour as a Giant.
There is zero chance of this happening. Mara isn't like fans. He knows what Eli represents. He's playing as long as he wants.
I love Eli, but this is a ridiculous take.
I love the ‘trade the pick crowd’. I’m sure the Browns love those extra picks they got for Wentz.
Love Grier as a prospect but reports are he’s staying
Quote:
Rosen the best pocket passer. Allen probably the biggest upside. Mayfield is not a high first round QB.
Not high on Jackson. He is run first qb through and through. I'm not confident his game translates. Great athlete who happens to play qb.
Jackson is not a run first Qb.
That's the guy I want.
Doomed for year by drafting their future QB? Eli’s isn’t playing 10 more years you know that right?
Dropping morsels like this is how you get ants.
than a Darnold or Rosen, could have a higher ceiling.
Allen doesn't even have any receivers this year!
Darnold or Rosen might have a higher floor.
Eli is going to cost 45 mill. against the cap, the next
two years, most likely won't be a pretty divorce.
I agree with trading down. They have so many needs. You can start with defensive backs who actually want to play tackle football. You have linebackers who are mediocre at best. And finally on defense, you have d-linemen who never get near the quarterback. And you very well might need 5 new starters on the O-line.
Quote:
In comment 13687045 jeff57 said:
Quote:
Rosen the best pocket passer. Allen probably the biggest upside. Mayfield is not a high first round QB.
Not high on Jackson. He is run first qb through and through. I'm not confident his game translates. Great athlete who happens to play qb.
Jackson is not a run first Qb.
Yeah. He's only thrown for 3000 yards and 21 TDs.
I would be very happy to see the Giants draft a QB with their first pick and then have him sit for not just one year, but two years, while Eli plays out his contract. There is a lot of talent on the Giants despite what we're now witnessing. Last year wasn't a mirage and OBJ didn't suffer a career-altering injury, just a season-ending one. And for all the talk of Eli being done, check out last year's playoff game vs the Packers. With the right pieces surrounding him, Eli is still a winning QB.
I would be very happy to see the Giants draft a QB with their first pick and then have him sit for not just one year, but two years, while Eli plays out his contract. There is a lot of talent on the Giants despite what we're now witnessing. Last year wasn't a mirage and OBJ didn't suffer a career-altering injury, just a season-ending one. And for all the talk of Eli being done, check out last year's playoff game vs the Packers. With the right pieces surrounding him, Eli is still a winning QB.
So Milton, you don't mind the QB being a 45 mill. cap hit the next two years? He is not part of the solution, if folks can't see that....
I would say one year max.
I stated that above when discussing drafting a QB,
with a top 3 pick.
Do you think another organization would take him on as a
45 mill. cap hit the next two years as well? He has a
no trade clause I believe, let's say hypothetically he waived that for this discussion....another organization
would ask him to re-structure his contract, before taking him on, would be my guess in any trade for him.
First, let them move on from the GM and HC...
Well, Rodgers and Rivers did, yes it can happen,
depends on the situation, every situation is different.
If you have absolutely nothing or garbage, obviously a young
QB drafted early will play right away.
Even a guy like Wentz for example, the Vikings lost
their starting QB in Bridgewater, the Eagles traded Bradford. Otherwise at the very least, Bradford would have
at least started the season with Philly.
Eli is not garbage, but not part
of the solution, that is not a knock, that's reality.
In comment 13688521 SterlingArcher said:
Unless you have your heart set on Gettleman or Dorsey, they likely won't get to hire the new GM right now even if they fire Reese immediately because the candidates that are with other teams may not be allowed out of their contracts or allowed to even interview until after the season.
Quote:
2018 will be Eli’s farewell tour as a Giant.
There is zero chance of this happening. Mara isn't like fans. He knows what Eli represents. He's playing as long as he wants.
Aw, that's cute. Not accurate, but cute.
Quote:
Spent the first two and three years of their careers on the bench and they were both able to hit the ground running because of it.
I would be very happy to see the Giants draft a QB with their first pick and then have him sit for not just one year, but two years, while Eli plays out his contract. There is a lot of talent on the Giants despite what we're now witnessing. Last year wasn't a mirage and OBJ didn't suffer a career-altering injury, just a season-ending one. And for all the talk of Eli being done, check out last year's playoff game vs the Packers. With the right pieces surrounding him, Eli is still a winning QB.
So Milton, you don't mind the QB being a 45 mill. cap hit the next two years? He is not part of the solution, if folks can't see that....
I would say one year max.
I stated that above when discussing drafting a QB,
with a top 3 pick.
My position stems from the belief that the Giants are fully capable of being a contender again next year, but that doesn't mean you pass up a golden opportunity to land the team's future franchise QB if there is one staring you in the face when you're on the clock (and it has to be a QB you love the same way you loved Eli in 2004, there is no need to reach for a QB just because you have the first pick). And vice versa, just because you invested the first pick in the draft on a QB doesn't mean you have to go into rebuild mode. You can have your cake and eat it too. If Eli were younger and had more years left on his contract it would be more problematic, but Eli's age and the two years left on his deal makes the circumstances practically ideal.
Let's talk about the cost. Forget about the cap numbers, all that matters is future real dollars, of which Eli is due $16M in 2018 and $17M in 2019 (from OverTheCap). When you consider what Webb and Rosen/Darnold will be making on their rookie deals in '18 and '19, the total real dollar outlay and subsequent cap hits for the QB position in those years is really quite manageable and very much a bargain. If they have to wait two years to transition to Rosen/Darnold (both of whom don't turn 21 until next year) they will still have three years of rookie rights remaining before they have to pay retail prices. And with a new coaching staff coming in and everyone learning new systems on both offense and defense, who better to lead the offense (and mentor the young QBs) during the learning process than Eli.
In any case, we're probably not that far apart in opinion, because if you can say "one year max" than you can agree on another year if Eli leads the Giants into the playoffs. And I can agree on reducing it to one year if Eli and the offense perform poorly and the Giants miss the playoffs by several games.
Funny? Sad? Maybe both, yes but spot on.
I respectfully disagree. Of the $33MM in real dollars owed to Eli over the next two season, $10MM of it comes in the form of roster bonuses. If Eli were to be released, it's possible that at 37 (or 38), he does not approach $33MM/2 years (or $17MM/1 year). But if he agrees to waive his NTC in exchange for converting his roster bonuses to guaranteed salary, he has a very real incentive.
That said, it's most likely a moot point because I don't see Eli waiving his NTC either way. And it's possible that he'd get near (or more than) the $33MM remaining on his deal (either in AAV or additional years or both). But it's not so absurd as to say he has no incentive at all.