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Let me ask the Eli is in decline crowd something....

Britt in VA : 11/13/2017 9:54 am
Would you agree that Eli has had pretty much no weapons on offense to throw to outside of Evan Engram?

Let's look at Evan Engram in relation to the rest of the TE's in the NFL:

He's 5th in receptions with 40
He's 8th in yards with 443
He's 2nd in the league in TD's with 5

I read this morning that Evan Engram is the first rookie TE since the merger in 1970 to reach 400 yards and 5 TD's through 8 games.

So my question is this: Is Eli in decline except when he's throwing to Engram?
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Eli is not, and never has been, a gifted thrower  
Go Terps : 11/13/2017 7:04 pm : link
in the class of Favre or the alien-level Marino. I think that works to his advantage as he ages, because it's not as if he's been leaning on a ridiculous arm to this point anyway.

I also think that the marriage with McAdoo has been a failure. It was always a strange union: McAdoo wants the ball thrown short and quickly; Eli's never been accurate or mechanically consistent enough to maximize the YAC potential of a West Coast style offense. If they're going to stick with Eli through 2018 and possibly beyond, the offense should be shifted radically to something based on running the ball and throwing the ball downfield off that. We already have two good tight ends on the roster, so that's a start.

McAdoo is cooked, we can all agree on that. If the next offense resembles his or is something that would traditionally be labeled as "West Coast", the Giants would probably be best served moving on from Eli in some form after this season.

What a colossal fuckup these last 5 years have been.
RE: RE: arc nails it.  
ajr2456 : 11/13/2017 7:05 pm : link
In comment 13690951 JCin332 said:
Quote:
In comment 13690895 Giants_ROK said:


Quote:


And WTF was that bowling with the football fumble, yesterday?

That had to be one of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen.





How embarrassing was this dumbass..?


We havenít won a playoff game in 6 years and only been once.

I donít think anywhere here doesnít appreciate Eli for the two Super Bowls, but we see the writing is on the wall and has been for two years.
RE: RE: arc nails it.  
Giants_ROK : 11/13/2017 7:05 pm : link
In comment 13690951 JCin332 said:
Quote:
In comment 13690895 Giants_ROK said:


Quote:


And WTF was that bowling with the football fumble, yesterday?

That had to be one of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen.





How embarrassing was this dumbass..?

Yes, Eli's two Super Bowl MVP's erase that bonehead play in yesterday's game.

The last appearance was when, six years ago? Keep living in the past, chief.
RE: RE: The most frustrating aspect of this topic is the perception  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/13/2017 7:07 pm : link
In comment 13690934 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 13690898 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


that saying Eli is in decline is some kind of insult to the guy.

He's 37 years old. It's normal to decline. Brady is declining. To think Eli isn't capable of trending down at an age where quarterbacks usually do wind down is some homer talk.



I think Eli's an average QB right now. I think he spent most of his career in the 6-12 range (and importantly, was largely consistently in that range outside of 2013 - and even). That's not that big of a decline.

Maybe he can get back to above-average play, but I don't think he can carry an offense like he did in 2009-2011, and even 14/15.


I don't think you're wrong here. But as with everything, it's dependent on other factors. If you believe he can still be an above average QB, that's totally fine. But he needs help around him more than at any point in his career. Can this be fixed in time to make use of Eli while he's still effective? Are we going to land in the top 5 of the draft with a chance to possibly take a franchise QB prospect and pass because Eli might have 2 years left?
.  
arcarsenal : 11/13/2017 7:13 pm : link
It's annoying when you can't criticize anything about Eli without people getting super-defensive.

I am WAY closer to being an Eli homer than a detractor. I have always given him the benefit of the doubt, I have always leaned towards defending him rather than criticizing him.

I just can't sit here with a straight face while people try to claim that Eli hasn't declined at all. Come on. The guy is 36 years old. It's not a slight towards the guy - it's part of a natural career arc.

I also have said several times that I think he can still play QB in the NFL. The problem is that the longer the Giants try to win with Eli, the longer the laundry list of things they'll need in addition to Eli will also continue to lengthen.

I would be completely on board with trying to be a run-first offense that leaned more on play-action passing and defense - I just don't think the Giants can make that transformation quickly enough for it to work while Eli is still a decent QB.

And then you may be building a system that is less-ideal for the next guy if he's got a different skillset.

I think the Giants would be smart to start making plans for life after Eli sooner than later. A year too late would be far worse than a year too soon.

I'm as sentimental as anyone when it comes to Eli - but you have to remove that from the equation if you want to be truly objective here.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 11/13/2017 7:14 pm : link
I'm with you, TTH. Even if someone were to think Eli's going to be great the next 2-3 years, you'd have to think the risk is heightened for a falloff.

I think the bigger discussion is whether any of these QBs are worth the top 3-5 pick, because I think even people who don't think Eli's fallen off are willing to admit the time for an heir is nearing.
RE: RE: RE: arc nails it.  
JCin332 : 11/13/2017 7:33 pm : link
In comment 13690961 Giants_ROK said:
Quote:
In comment 13690951 JCin332 said:


Quote:


In comment 13690895 Giants_ROK said:


Quote:


And WTF was that bowling with the football fumble, yesterday?

That had to be one of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen.





How embarrassing was this dumbass..?


Yes, Eli's two Super Bowl MVP's erase that bonehead play in yesterday's game.

The last appearance was when, six years ago? Keep living in the past, chief.




Go root for the Eagles...
RE: RE: RE: RE: arc nails it.  
ajr2456 : 11/13/2017 7:39 pm : link
In comment 13691019 JCin332 said:
Quote:
In comment 13690961 Giants_ROK said:


Quote:


In comment 13690951 JCin332 said:


Quote:


In comment 13690895 Giants_ROK said:


Quote:


And WTF was that bowling with the football fumble, yesterday?

That had to be one of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen.





How embarrassing was this dumbass..?


Yes, Eli's two Super Bowl MVP's erase that bonehead play in yesterday's game.

The last appearance was when, six years ago? Keep living in the past, chief.





Go root for the Eagles...


You must be 14 years old
.  
arcarsenal : 11/13/2017 7:45 pm : link
Photos of Eli from a decade ago aren't constructive responses to this debate. Nor is telling someone to go root for the Eagles just because they think Eli may be in a decline.

Some of you guys need to grow up.
RE: RE: arc nails it.  
Sarcastic Sam : 11/13/2017 7:48 pm : link
In comment 13690951 JCin332 said:
Quote:
In comment 13690895 Giants_ROK said:


Quote:


And WTF was that bowling with the football fumble, yesterday?

That had to be one of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen.





How embarrassing was this dumbass..?


I'm shocked he didn't fumble the Lombardi.
RE: .  
JCin332 : 11/13/2017 7:56 pm : link
In comment 13691043 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Photos of Eli from a decade ago aren't constructive responses to this debate. Nor is telling someone to go root for the Eagles just because they think Eli may be in a decline.

Some of you guys need to grow up.


Actually arc if you read those 2 dopes post the last several days you would understand my responses...

They are of the ilk of hysterical crybabies..

Here is one of ROK's posts as an example:

Quote:
That stat-compiling goofball
Giants_ROK : 11/11/2017 11:56 pm : link : reply
can't get gone fast enough.


As far as constructive maybe you shouldn't take yourself so seriously..?


I have been watching this team and going to games since the '70's and believe me the QB situation could be much worse and the odds of finding another QB like Manning are very remote...

He may be declining but I believe he still can win and is a top 10 QB...he is having as good a year as Brees and Ben but does not have their supporting casts...if he did I have no doubt the Giants would be in playoff contention...

The problem I have is how some of these so called "fans" deal with adversity...I would love to see how they deal with it in their own lives...

Go root for the Eagles?  
Giants_ROK : 11/13/2017 7:57 pm : link
Brilliant response.

Tough to admit that the guy who delivered in some big spots isn't delivering anymore?

Yeah, yeah. Team sport and all that. How about the franchise player elevate the play of those around him?

He's not doing it.
JCin332:  
Giants_ROK : 11/13/2017 8:01 pm : link
the quote of mine you post was a joke and a sarcastic reply to Les in TO's thread equating Eli with Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 11/13/2017 8:02 pm : link
In comment 13691064 JCin332 said:
Quote:
In comment 13691043 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Photos of Eli from a decade ago aren't constructive responses to this debate. Nor is telling someone to go root for the Eagles just because they think Eli may be in a decline.

Some of you guys need to grow up.



Actually arc if you read those 2 dopes post the last several days you would understand my responses...

They are of the ilk of hysterical crybabies..

Here is one of ROK's posts as an example:



Quote:


That stat-compiling goofball
Giants_ROK : 11/11/2017 11:56 pm : link : reply
can't get gone fast enough.



As far as constructive maybe you shouldn't take yourself so seriously..?


I have been watching this team and going to games since the '70's and believe me the QB situation could be much worse and the odds of finding another QB like Manning are very remote...

He may be declining but I believe he still can win and is a top 10 QB...he is having as good a year as Brees and Ben but does not have their supporting casts...if he did I have no doubt the Giants would be in playoff contention...

The problem I have is how some of these so called "fans" deal with adversity...I would love to see how they deal with it in their own lives...


Ben has sucked this year. If Eli is "as good as Ben" right now, that's not a great barometer.
That's my point he is having  
JCin332 : 11/13/2017 8:11 pm : link
a better year yet his team is 1-8...

And dumbass on here post lists saying Ben's still a top 10 QB...
RE: .  
Jim in Forest Hills : 11/13/2017 8:59 pm : link
In comment 13690981 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
It's annoying when you can't criticize anything about Eli without people getting super-defensive.

I am WAY closer to being an Eli homer than a detractor. I have always given him the benefit of the doubt, I have always leaned towards defending him rather than criticizing him.

I just can't sit here with a straight face while people try to claim that Eli hasn't declined at all. Come on. The guy is 36 years old. It's not a slight towards the guy - it's part of a natural career arc.

I also have said several times that I think he can still play QB in the NFL. The problem is that the longer the Giants try to win with Eli, the longer the laundry list of things they'll need in addition to Eli will also continue to lengthen.

I would be completely on board with trying to be a run-first offense that leaned more on play-action passing and defense - I just don't think the Giants can make that transformation quickly enough for it to work while Eli is still a decent QB.

And then you may be building a system that is less-ideal for the next guy if he's got a different skillset.

I think the Giants would be smart to start making plans for life after Eli sooner than later. A year too late would be far worse than a year too soon.

I'm as sentimental as anyone when it comes to Eli - but you have to remove that from the equation if you want to be truly objective here.


Agreed, I feel like they missed that window last year. Look Engram is a nice piece, but they needed to double down on OL. Cam Robinson or Ramczyk in the first. Then an OG in the 2nd. Instead of Engram you have Ellison and Adams, two big TEs to help run block. Maybe draft that Texas RB Foreman in the 3rd. Keep Hankins. Or Whitworth too. No to Webb, all in on Eli.

Thats all Reese. He didn't see it.
RE: Yeah, agreed...  
Rover : 11/13/2017 9:15 pm : link
In comment 13689593 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
but even despite that, Engram is having a historic season for a rookie TE.

The Giants have no WR, their defense stinks, they fall behind by a lot...hence they have a lot of SOFT garbage time stats...and since they have NO WR...somebody has to get the catches.
RE: RE: Yeah, agreed...  
B in ALB : 11/13/2017 9:18 pm : link
In comment 13691260 Rover said:
Quote:
In comment 13689593 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


but even despite that, Engram is having a historic season for a rookie TE.


The Giants have no WR, their defense stinks, they fall behind by a lot...hence they have a lot of SOFT garbage time stats...and since they have NO WR...somebody has to get the catches.


Shepard was complete shit yesterday. So was Tavares King.

GoldenTee with the knowledge as usual.
RE: RE: Yeah, agreed...  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/13/2017 9:18 pm : link
In comment 13691260 Rover said:
Quote:
In comment 13689593 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


but even despite that, Engram is having a historic season for a rookie TE.


The Giants have no WR, their defense stinks, they fall behind by a lot...hence they have a lot of SOFT garbage time stats...and since they have NO WR...somebody has to get the catches.


Wasn't Engram's TD in the first half?
...  
christian : 11/13/2017 9:44 pm : link
These are circular zero sum arguments. For a small minority any meaningful consideration that Manning isn't what he once was is a personal affront.

Britt doesn't really want to talk about football. He wants to setup trip wires he can fall into, and wig out when anyone responds.

No matter how bad the loss, how embarrassed the team gets, rest assured as the clock winds down there will be a thread praising Manning, condoning Manning, and if all else fails at least blaming other players so Manning has company.

Point of fact there is no good way to judge the logical erosion of skill of the QB with the depths of how bad this team is. If the past is any indication, aging quarterbacks don't hold up. Maybe Manning is the victim of an awful team. Maybe he's benifiting from the plausible deniability of being just one passenger in this train wreck.

What's obvious to me at least, the 2011 version of Manning brilliantly carried a flawed team to unbelievable heights. The 6 years older version isn't carrying them to more than a few victories.

The finances of the team probably dictate we'll get another chance or two to find out who this version of Manning is. The medium term cap construction should keep this team together for a few more years, they have decent coin to spend and will pick near the top in every round.

If I had to guess, Manning has enough to get a more functionally coached team on another run. But if he doesn't we certainly can bet there will be plenty of excuses.
RE: RE: .  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/13/2017 9:54 pm : link
In comment 13690424 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13690410 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Dan Marino posted a 23 TD/15 INT season in 1998 at 37. He was 7th in the league in pass yards, the Dolphins finished 10-6.

By nearly any measure, people probably would have said "hey, Dan can still sling it! We can still win with him"

The very next season, he threw just 12 TD passes to 17 INT's in 11 games and wound up with a 5-6 record. His completion% and QBR hit career lows, and he was finished.

I guess that's what you guys are going to need to see before you're willing to accept that it's probably time to start planning for life beyond #10.



How many times do I have to say that I want them to draft his replacement in the first round? Is that not planning for life beyond?

As far as the decline aspect, he's healthy and never missed a game. I don't see the decline that so many state as an obvious thing to see. I find it impossible to evaluate what Eli is or isn't under these conditions. I'm frankly surprised that so many are convinced that he's in obvious decline.

I wouldn't want to evaluate what Webb is or isn't in these conditions, either.

I'd compare physical decline to baseball (if you'll allow me to compare across sports). It's not always so obvious that a hitter just strikes out all the time and goes from great to awful overnight. But all sports are a game of inches. A matter of slight degrees. In baseball, it takes a quarter of an inch to go from barreling up a middle-in fastball into the stands, to lofting it to the warning track; it takes a split second of timing to go from driving the ball into the gap to pushing it foul.

The same can be said for football. The decline for a QB is not as obvious as him coming up short on all of his throws - it can be that his release is just a split second slower which lets the defense react and takes away the YAC opportunities; it can be that he has to wind up just a little bit more on his deep ball which causes him to spray or overthrow on long passes.

Eli doesn't appear to be old and broken down, but I don't think that's the proper definition of in decline. Rather, that's the definition of absolutely finished. Are there some here who seem to think Eli falls into the latter camp and not the former? Yes, I won't deny that - there are obviously some posters who are vehemently anti-Eli. But if you're finding yourself arguing against them, you're choosing to fight against the most unreasonable position because it gives you the most shelter within your own bias (in the same way that it's much easier on the other side of the debate to point out those posters who claim that Eli has more years on his arm than on his contract).

Eli is definitely in decline, as are most QBs who reach his age (and many don't even make it as long as he has). To point to the rare exceptions like Brady, Brees or Favre isn't to prove that Eli is not declining any more than anyone else can point to players even younger than Eli who clearly did decline physically.

Could the Giants still win with Eli? Yes. A physically declining QB is not a complete obstacle to winning - we saw it with Eli's own brother who was much more obviously declining (and closer to absolutely finished) than Eli is. But we also saw Denver basically get caught with their pants down as far as being prepared for life after Peyton and now are paying the price for it while they still have a team that would likely be competitive if only they had competent QB play.

It's only prudent to prepare for life after Eli.
Even in the Broncos example, Peyton was basically a walking corpse  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/13/2017 10:08 pm : link
Their defense was just out of this world. They would have carried anyone that year, IMO.
RE: Even in the Broncos example, Peyton was basically a walking corpse  
christian : 11/13/2017 10:14 pm : link
In comment 13691394 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Their defense was just out of this world. They would have carried anyone that year, IMO.


Thankfully this Manning has a functional arm, which gets him ahead of Broncos era Peyton.

Unfortunately the Giants don't have a generationally great defense.

RE: ...  
Jim in Forest Hills : 11/13/2017 10:18 pm : link
In comment 13691342 christian said:
Quote:
These are circular zero sum arguments. For a small minority any meaningful consideration that Manning isn't what he once was is a personal affront.

Britt doesn't really want to talk about football. He wants to setup trip wires he can fall into, and wig out when anyone responds.

No matter how bad the loss, how embarrassed the team gets, rest assured as the clock winds down there will be a thread praising Manning, condoning Manning, and if all else fails at least blaming other players so Manning has company.

Point of fact there is no good way to judge the logical erosion of skill of the QB with the depths of how bad this team is. If the past is any indication, aging quarterbacks don't hold up. Maybe Manning is the victim of an awful team. Maybe he's benifiting from the plausible deniability of being just one passenger in this train wreck.

What's obvious to me at least, the 2011 version of Manning brilliantly carried a flawed team to unbelievable heights. The 6 years older version isn't carrying them to more than a few victories.

The finances of the team probably dictate we'll get another chance or two to find out who this version of Manning is. The medium term cap construction should keep this team together for a few more years, they have decent coin to spend and will pick near the top in every round.

If I had to guess, Manning has enough to get a more functionally coached team on another run. But if he doesn't we certainly can bet there will be plenty of excuses.


Sadly this is true. Not as obvious as dep but the same MO.
Okay, so I'm a bad poster that doesn't want to talk football....  
Britt in VA : 11/14/2017 9:50 am : link
Got it.

Just because I don't prescribe to the group think and buzz words that happen here on a regular basis....

Just like last year, when everybody called me a Coughlin lover for pointing out there was a problem with our offense as early as October, and I got shouted down.... I couldn't see that we were 11-5, McAdoo was playing his hand perfectly and purposely, we didn't need to score 20 points because we were winning.... I didn't want to talk football, I just wanted to talk about how great Coughlin was...
....  
BrettNYG10 : 11/14/2017 9:55 am : link
I think this is a great point:

Quote:
The decline for a QB is not as obvious as him coming up short on all of his throws - it can be that his release is just a split second slower which lets the defense react and takes away the YAC opportunities; it can be that he has to wind up just a little bit more on his deep ball which causes him to spray or overthrow on long passes.
RE: ....  
Britt in VA : 11/14/2017 10:16 am : link
In comment 13691721 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
I think this is a great point:



Quote:


The decline for a QB is not as obvious as him coming up short on all of his throws - it can be that his release is just a split second slower which lets the defense react and takes away the YAC opportunities; it can be that he has to wind up just a little bit more on his deep ball which causes him to spray or overthrow on long passes.



Now, I know I'm setting a trap for myself to fall into, here.......

But when the defense only has to rush 3 or 4 guys, and allows the other 7 or 8 guys to drop into coverage and flood all the passing lanes, and 95% of our passing plays are under 15 yards, and two of those three or four guys are getting to the QB and hitting him in the two seconds he has to release the ball.... I'd argue it's hard to evaluate exactly whether he's in decline or not.

And while I will not argue that father time of course will make somebody naturally decline physically, let's say from 31-36, I don't see the deep chasm cliff that many here claim to see and state the decline as if it's a physical, obvious decline for all to see.

If he still can physically make all the throws, and you factor in the difficult circumstances that I cited above, then I would argue it's hard to see what exactly we have in him.

Personally, I choose to base my opinion on what I've seen from him over his career, rather than speculate without much evidence on what may be happening.

As far as preparing for life after Manning, I'm all for it. I've stated to draft his replacement in the first round this year.

All I'm saying is... You draft his replacement, you let the new coach and GM get the roster straight, then you roll the dice with Manning again next year while you groom his replacement. If Manning can't get it done, you put in his replacement and move on.

I think it's a logical plan. In fact, I think everything I just posted is pretty damn logical, but I know it's doesn't appease the cut or trade Manning crowd (even though I guarantee neither of those are going to happen, but I guess they are more worthy of discussion than what actually IS going to happen, which is the likely scenario I just outlined).
....  
BrettNYG10 : 11/14/2017 10:41 am : link
I agree with much of your post. I think people acting like Eli is irreparably cooked are foolish. He's not there yet. Those people are an obnoxious minority. I think Eli can succeed but might need a bit more help than he had when he gave us good offenses during the Gilbride era and in 2014/2015.

I also think last season's pedestrian (not bad - but not good, either) year is more of an indictment than this season. The weapons weren't all that different from 14/15. But Eli's had 'meh' years before.

My understanding of the cap stuff is that Eli will almost certainly be here next year. I can see a bounce back year for the team. I don't think we're as far off from a playoff spot as it feels right now. Better coaching, some new talent, etc. I'd be very surprised at a Browns/49ers stretch of mediocrity, unless we mess up Eli's successor.
Britt  
Modus Operandi : 11/14/2017 10:57 am : link
Fine. Let's assume Eli isn't in decline.

This team will require 1-2 years to fix the woes at minimum. Let's again assume that we get lucky in the draft and pick up 1-2 stud OK. Those OK will take time to develop.

We are now talking about a 38-39 y/o QB making over $20M per season. At what point are you comfortable moving forward? Because many of us have alr easy reached that conclusion.
OL, not OK  
Modus Operandi : 11/14/2017 10:58 am : link
.
RE: Britt  
Britt in VA : 11/14/2017 11:07 am : link
In comment 13691819 Modus Operandi said:
Quote:
Fine. Let's assume Eli isn't in decline.

This team will require 1-2 years to fix the woes at minimum. Let's again assume that we get lucky in the draft and pick up 1-2 stud OK. Those OK will take time to develop.

We are now talking about a 38-39 y/o QB making over $20M per season. At what point are you comfortable moving forward? Because many of us have alr easy reached that conclusion.


I don't think it will take 2 years to rebuild. I've said it before and I've said it again, this league is built to go from worst to first in a single offseason. That's parity.

The Giants did it last year. McAdoo wasn't a good enough coach to build on it, because his offense was garbage, but with the right offensive coach, and the addition of a linemen or two, this team can compete, and there is talent on the roster on both sides.

Jerry Reese's failure has been the offensive line. A new GM might be able to come in and correct it. I don't believe we have to scrap Pugh, Richberg, and Flowers, I just think a vet or two playing next to them or in between them can make all the difference. Right now, we have crap across the board.

As for Eli, I'd draft his successor and let him play out his contract, OR until he shows he can't do the job any longer and it's time to put the rookie in and let the chips fall where they may. Warner was clearly shot when Eli was put in there, despite the 5-2 record. If Eli is performing like that, then put in the rookie next year.

But if you're winning, and Eli's playing at a level you're comfortable with, you let him keep playing until he can't. Aaron Rodgers sat for what? 3 years behind Favre? That worked out well for everybody.

Having a veteran QB of Eli's caliber is an asset to a new coach/GM, not a detriment, for multiple reasons.
Speaking of Warner, a lot of people probably (rightfully)  
Britt in VA : 11/14/2017 11:10 am : link
argued he was done after the Giants. He went on to some success after that.
And he definitely looked in decline....  
Britt in VA : 11/14/2017 11:11 am : link
much more so than Eli did.

A testament to any QB being able to succeed in better circumstances.
And there's another horsesh-t narrative floating around the groupthink  
Britt in VA : 11/14/2017 11:40 am : link
tank lately that letting a rookie QB sit and groom him is a thing of the past....

That's bullsh-t. Rodgers sat behind Favre for three years. Rivers behind Brees...

The only reason a QB is thrust into playing time without grooming him first is because that team likely didn't have a QB to begin with.

As much as people refuse to acknowledge it, having a capable Eli for another two years, as well as a high first round draft pick to use on a QB this year (and Webb too), is actually a great scenario. I'd venture to even say it's the IDEAL scenario.
RE: And he definitely looked in decline....  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/14/2017 12:03 pm : link
In comment 13691849 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
much more so than Eli did.

A testament to any QB being able to succeed in better circumstances.

Warner is a very good example for your position on this debate, Britt. No question about that. It's worth noting, however, that Warner was only 33 during that year he spent with the Giants.

I think you can make the case on the other side that Donovan McNabb is an example of the opposite. 2008 looked like the start of the decline, then he bounced back a little bit in 2009, then fell off a cliff with Washington and Minnesota after that.

Rich Gannon went from first team All-Pro in his age 37 season to a combined 10 games and 1,800 yards passing over the next two years.

Steve Young went from a Pro Bowl season in his age 37 season (though despite excellent counting stats, his completion rate started to slip that year) to 3 games and 446 yards at age 38 (which would be his final season).

Dan Marino began his decline in 1996 at age 35, though many point to Jimmy Johnson being brought on as head coach and treating Marino as a game manager in a run-heavy scheme. What they don't realize is that in 1997, Marino led the league in attempts and completions, but his completion percentage and interceptions increased and both continued to increase in 1998 and 1999. I think Marino is probably the best example of a HOF QB being a franchise icon and how difficult it is to say goodbye.

In the interest of fairness and full disclosure, Marino's Dolphins did make the playoffs in each of his final three seasons. So that does support your argument, absolutely.

I think we have discussed this enough that, to some degree, we actually do agree. Where I disagree is the idea that "you let him play until he can't" because that's begging for another season like this one, ultimately. I don't think we'll see Eli trot himself out there like a broken down Namath on the Rams, though. I suspect he'll retire at the end of his contract or maybe even the end of next season, depending on how things go for him and the team and whether or not there is a young QB pushing him out of his role.

If I had to bet on it, I think the Giants draft a QB with their 1st round pick this coming draft and attempt to build a solid line around Eli one more time in 2018 (which also serves the purpose of giving the rookie a good line when his time comes). It does benefit the Giants to give a premium rookie QB prospect an opportunity to learn from Eli, and the convenient thing is that the way you'd build a roster to cushion a rookie QB is also the way you'd need to build the roster in order for Eli to be effective at this point.
.  
Britt in VA : 11/14/2017 12:08 pm : link
Quote:
I think we have discussed this enough that, to some degree, we actually do agree. Where I disagree is the idea that "you let him play until he can't"


But you're hedging your bets for when that time comes with a 1st round QB prospect and Webb waiting in the wings, learning. As soon as you see he's not capable anymore, there's your opening to put in the guy you've been grooming.

Quote:
If I had to bet on it, I think the Giants draft a QB with their 1st round pick this coming draft and attempt to build a solid line around Eli one more time in 2018 (which also serves the purpose of giving the rookie a good line when his time comes). It does benefit the Giants to give a premium rookie QB prospect an opportunity to learn from Eli, and the convenient thing is that the way you'd build a roster to cushion a rookie QB is also the way you'd need to build the roster in order for Eli to be effective at this point.


It's a win/win, and like I said, the ideal scenario for Eli, the new coach, and the new QB.
RE: RE: And he definitely looked in decline....  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/14/2017 12:25 pm : link
In comment 13691955 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
Dan Marino began his decline in 1996 at age 35, though many point to Jimmy Johnson being brought on as head coach and treating Marino as a game manager in a run-heavy scheme. What they don't realize is that in 1997, Marino led the league in attempts and completions, but his completion percentage and interceptions increased and both continued to increase in 1998 and 1999. I think Marino is probably the best example of a HOF QB being a franchise icon and how difficult it is to say goodbye.

For the sake of accuracy, Marino's completion percentage decreased and his interceptions increased each year from 1996 on.
I don't like bringing up other quarterbacks to make a case  
Go Terps : 11/14/2017 12:49 pm : link
Eli is not Warner, or Marino, or Favre, or anyone else. What happened with them has no bearing here, and any assessment should be made based on what we're seeing from Eli himself.

In watching him throw, I don't see any issues. The issues I see have to do with pocket presence and awareness. Logic tells me that could be remedied through an improved offensive line and (just as importantly) a different offensive system.

Regardless, the Giants should be planning for his replacement.
RE: I don't like bringing up other quarterbacks to make a case  
Britt in VA : 11/14/2017 12:55 pm : link
In comment 13692005 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Eli is not Warner, or Marino, or Favre, or anyone else. What happened with them has no bearing here, and any assessment should be made based on what we're seeing from Eli himself.

In watching him throw, I don't see any issues. The issues I see have to do with pocket presence and awareness. Logic tells me that could be remedied through an improved offensive line and (just as importantly) a different offensive system.

Regardless, the Giants should be planning for his replacement.


Agree with the bold and they should be seeking/planning for his replacement, as any smart business would.
RE: Okay, so I'm a bad poster that doesn't want to talk football....  
christian : 11/14/2017 4:24 pm : link
In comment 13691716 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Got it.

Just because I don't prescribe to the group think and buzz words that happen here on a regular basis....

Just like last year, when everybody called me a Coughlin lover for pointing out there was a problem with our offense as early as October, and I got shouted down.... I couldn't see that we were 11-5, McAdoo was playing his hand perfectly and purposely, we didn't need to score 20 points because we were winning.... I didn't want to talk football, I just wanted to talk about how great Coughlin was...


You are a bad poster who doesn't want to really talk football in the immediate aftermath of games. You regularly fire off a defensive post of Manning, and then fire insults right of the bat or quickly thereafter.

It has nothing to do with group think or buzz words. You want to defend your point of view and find the most bizarre and childish moments to do it.

You've gone as far as to say we owe Eli Manning an apology. Really try that on for size dude - on an internet message board you outright said other strangers owe a complete other stranger an apology.
Actually Britt is a great poster...you on the other hand the jury  
JCin332 : 11/14/2017 6:39 pm : link
is still out...

The point is Eli has done nothing but act with class and dignity and represented this franchise well despite being surrounded with shit talent a lot of his career...

Maybe people on here should learn something from it so they can become better at dealing with adversity...

Comments about the entertainment  
Giants_ROK : 11/14/2017 6:53 pm : link
business are indicators of how we deal with adversity?

Let me tell you how I deal with adversity: I laugh in its face.
RE: RE: Okay, so I'm a bad poster that doesn't want to talk football....  
Britt in VA : 11/14/2017 7:24 pm : link
In comment 13692269 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 13691716 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


Got it.

Just because I don't prescribe to the group think and buzz words that happen here on a regular basis....

Just like last year, when everybody called me a Coughlin lover for pointing out there was a problem with our offense as early as October, and I got shouted down.... I couldn't see that we were 11-5, McAdoo was playing his hand perfectly and purposely, we didn't need to score 20 points because we were winning.... I didn't want to talk football, I just wanted to talk about how great Coughlin was...



You are a bad poster who doesn't want to really talk football in the immediate aftermath of games. You regularly fire off a defensive post of Manning, and then fire insults right of the bat or quickly thereafter.

It has nothing to do with group think or buzz words. You want to defend your point of view and find the most bizarre and childish moments to do it.

You've gone as far as to say we owe Eli Manning an apology. Really try that on for size dude - on an internet message board you outright said other strangers owe a complete other stranger an apology.


I think it's ironic that you mention that I start insulting everybody. I thought about that and went back and read this very long thread. I can't find one insult directed at anybody on this thread, from me. I feel like everything I posted, even though it was my opinion, was related to the conversation at hand and backed up with logic. Any questions I asked were legitimate and relevant to the discussion. In your two posts on the thread, you sit back and insult me, call me a bad poster, tell me I'm behaving in a bizarre and childlike fashion. Please point out where on this very, very long thread where I've insulted anybody?

As far as saying some fans owed Eli an apology, it was surely in the figurative sense. I did not expect anybody to actually write him a letter.

Finally, when is an appropriate time to post my feelings? This was posted at 10am Monday morning. Is that the immediate aftermath, or is there a time limit? Just checking for future reference.
...  
christian : 11/14/2017 7:54 pm : link
OK bud fair enough.
Britt..  
EricJ : 11/14/2017 9:16 pm : link
I don't think you can truly measure a QBs effectiveness by looking solely at stats similar to what you wrote in the opening post.

Engram is Eli's safety net catching a lot of shorter passes and then doing something with them. That is great. However, what you are not capturing (in addition to some drops) are the high number of missed throws at critical times in the game. Or missed throws which would have been obvious TDs. On the stat line, it shows up as a simple incompletion.

What also does not show up in the stat line is how easy it is for teams to defend us because Eli poses no threat at all to leak out of the pocket. It absolutely changes the coverage schemes.

Now, I am not saying that we should get rid of Eli now. (We have nobody else at the moment.) However, his skills absolutely have been declining AND if the Giants do not begin planning for the NEAR future and find a quality QB who has the skill sets needed to compete in today's game, then we will be experiencing more seasons like this one.
"He can play as long as he wants"  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/14/2017 9:28 pm : link
or any similar such ideas are really hard to take.

The only way that line of thinking ends is by trying to blame everyone in the organization around the QB for not helping him enough while we watch handfuls of younger QBs step into the league and do impressive things.
RE:  
Les in TO : 11/14/2017 9:48 pm : link
In comment 13692579 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
or any similar such ideas are really hard to take.

The only way that line of thinking ends is by trying to blame everyone in the organization around the QB for not helping him enough while we watch handfuls of younger QBs step into the league and do impressive things.
bingo
Yeah, bingo....  
Britt in VA : 11/15/2017 6:17 am : link
except I didn't say that....

Quote:
As for Eli, I'd draft his successor and let him play out his contract, OR until he shows he can't do the job any longer and it's time to put the rookie in and let the chips fall where they may. Warner was clearly shot when Eli was put in there, despite the 5-2 record. If Eli is performing like that, then put in the rookie next year.

But if you're winning, and Eli's playing at a level you're comfortable with, you let him keep playing until he can't. Aaron Rodgers sat for what? 3 years behind Favre? That worked out well for everybody.

Having a veteran QB of Eli's caliber is an asset to a new coach/GM, not a detriment, for multiple reasons.
Seriously none of this matters because thankfully  
SethFromAstoria : 11/15/2017 8:56 am : link
The owners are not basing any decision on anything besides whether the guy is capable and even capable to excel rather than the loss of any loyalty to a player who should once again be lauded for handling one more wasted year of his career as though it's as much his fault as anyone even.


But it's insanely hilarious that we can now judge Eli as in decline because of an imperceptible half a second delay or whatever else... While not just stating the obvious and ending this analysis because he has no one to run, no one to catch. Wow.
RE: Seriously none of this matters because thankfully  
Britt in VA : 11/15/2017 9:20 am : link
In comment 13692730 SethFromAstoria said:
Quote:
The owners are not basing any decision on anything besides whether the guy is capable and even capable to excel rather than the loss of any loyalty to a player who should once again be lauded for handling one more wasted year of his career as though it's as much his fault as anyone even.


But it's insanely hilarious that we can now judge Eli as in decline because of an imperceptible half a second delay or whatever else... While not just stating the obvious and ending this analysis because he has no one to run, no one to catch. Wow.


Barring catastrophic injury, I agree, Eli is the starting QB in 2018. I put the chance of them trading him or cutting him at pretty much 0%.
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