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Let me ask the Eli is in decline crowd something....

Britt in VA : 11/13/2017 9:54 am
Would you agree that Eli has had pretty much no weapons on offense to throw to outside of Evan Engram?

Let's look at Evan Engram in relation to the rest of the TE's in the NFL:

He's 5th in receptions with 40
He's 8th in yards with 443
He's 2nd in the league in TD's with 5

I read this morning that Evan Engram is the first rookie TE since the merger in 1970 to reach 400 yards and 5 TD's through 8 games.

So my question is this: Is Eli in decline except when he's throwing to Engram?
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McAdoo’s system does not coach to Eli’s strengths..  
Sean : 11/13/2017 9:56 am : link
Eli is best when he’s pushing the ball down the field. That is not how McAdoo wants to play offense.
Yeah, agreed...  
Britt in VA : 11/13/2017 9:57 am : link
but even despite that, Engram is having a historic season for a rookie TE.
Except for the forced fumble  
NorwoodWideRight : 11/13/2017 9:58 am : link
and the fact that Eli can't, and never has been able to hit receivers in stride, he looked pretty good yesterday. Most of his throws were pretty sharp. He didn't look like a QB in decline. This week.
He had a good day throwing the ball to Shepard...  
figgy2989 : 11/13/2017 10:00 am : link
But Eli is good for a bad turnover at least once a game. Yesterday was no different
RE: He had a good day throwing the ball to Shepard...  
Britt in VA : 11/13/2017 10:00 am : link
In comment 13689608 figgy2989 said:
Quote:
But Eli is good for a bad turnover at least once a game. Yesterday was no different


Is that anything new, though?
RE: McAdoo’s system does not coach to Eli’s strengths..  
JohnB : 11/13/2017 10:01 am : link
In comment 13689586 Sean said:
Quote:
Eli is best when he’s pushing the ball down the field. That is not how McAdoo wants to play offense.


100% in agreement! Eli is not a WCO QB. Dinking and dunking isn't him. McAdoo and Eli aren't a good fit.

Eli has been missing  
section125 : 11/13/2017 10:02 am : link
deep throws all year. He can still sling it, but he deep throws have been awfully inaccurate going on two years, even when there is time and the receivers are very open.

Can he still play well enough to win, absolutely. Still better than 1/2 the league, but not much...
Eli does throw to receivers in stride  
BBelle21 : 11/13/2017 10:04 am : link
We’ve all seen it many many many times over his 14 year career
I would agree he is short on weapons and  
Jimmy Googs : 11/13/2017 10:05 am : link
he is still in decline.

Been going on for 2 seasons now with respect to long balls and patience in pocket, eyes dropping. Always had the inaccuracy issue and throwing behind guys but now it's more...
RE: Eli has been missing  
Britt in VA : 11/13/2017 10:05 am : link
In comment 13689618 section125 said:
Quote:
deep throws all year. He can still sling it, but he deep throws have been awfully inaccurate going on two years, even when there is time and the receivers are very open.

Can he still play well enough to win, absolutely. Still better than 1/2 the league, but not much...


Eli has also been missing all of his starting receivers most of the year, as well. Chemistry is important.
That's not the point  
oldutican : 11/13/2017 10:06 am : link
Given his age and where the team is now, the Giants are highly unlikely to be a contender with Eli at QB. They will get a shot at a top QB in the draft. I don't pretend to know if any of the QBs will be worth a top 3 pick, but if one is, you pick him and let him play. The days of sitting and grooming a QB seem to be over. Guys with talent come in and hold their own or better. You also have Webb as insurance. Nothing wrong with having 2 young QBs. This scenario becomes more likely if you have a new GM and coach who want to build their own team & identity.
The only system that works for Eli  
SHO'NUFF : 11/13/2017 10:07 am : link
is a system where the O-line can hold their blocks for more than 2 seconds.
How much chemistry does that San Fran QB  
Jimmy Googs : 11/13/2017 10:07 am : link
have with his receivers??

Come on...
Not to be negative  
Elite Mobster #32 : 11/13/2017 10:09 am : link
I worry about Evan Engram reaching for Eli' passes. So far Eli has played better when throwing to Engram.
The system is designed to  
Simms11 : 11/13/2017 10:09 am : link
get the ball out of Eli’s hands quicker and into playmakers hands to get yards. There’s the occasional throw downfield to keep defenses honest, but this system actually does suit Eli at this stage of his career. Oline is not helping. RT yesterday was an adventure and Eli was sacked or pressured consistently from that side. We will never be able to chuck the ball downfield consistently with this Oline and an immobile QB.
He's tough to evaluate  
family progtitioner : 11/13/2017 10:09 am : link
On one hand he clearly lacks talent around him. The offensive system appears to favor a mobile qb and teams have definitely figured it out.

On the other, he goes down with little or sometimes no contact. The most important stats for a QB, scoring and yrds/catch are horrendous and he turns the ball over way too much.

He's not 2011 Eli but he's not quite Bledsoe yet either. I'd like to see him in a better system with some talent around him but I think that ship has sailed. He's too old to start a rebuild around and surrounding him with adequate talent might take years.
Maybe Engram is making Eli look better than he is at this point?  
GiantFilthy : 11/13/2017 10:12 am : link
Just as Eli used to do for average receives in the past?
RE: RE: Eli has been missing  
section125 : 11/13/2017 10:13 am : link
In comment 13689628 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13689618 section125 said:


Quote:


deep throws all year. He can still sling it, but he deep throws have been awfully inaccurate going on two years, even when there is time and the receivers are very open.

Can he still play well enough to win, absolutely. Still better than 1/2 the league, but not much...



Eli has also been missing all of his starting receivers most of the year, as well. Chemistry is important.


He has missed a wide open Shepard and others. He has missed Engram. I don't buy the chemistry except on read plays. A guy running open down the middle or a throw to the pillion (King last week) should not be badly missed.
By the Way Eli killed off his weapons early in preseason  
Elite Mobster #32 : 11/13/2017 10:14 am : link
My wish is for Engram to develop with a young QB peer like himself. Odell needs a young guy like him 25 throwing and developing with him as well.

The trend in the league is to play the young QB's the old vet stuff is not really working aside from Drew Brees and Brady.

The other teams are making the transition. Its hard to let go of Eli because he has never been hurt.
Sorry Britt...  
M.S. : 11/13/2017 10:15 am : link
...but your example is besides the point IMO.

We've got at least two division rivals who are set at QB for the next decade, and we have a HOF QB who's in self-preservation mode.

When the chips were stacked against Eli (no o-line and no receivers), he didn't exactly inspire the team. Maybe no one could in those circumstances...

...but, then again, it would have required a QB who could extend plays with his legs. Eli, in stark contrast, is looking for a soft spot on the field to plant his carcass.

So, what do we have in Eli? A guy that needs just about everything perfect in front of him in order to succeed. And a guy who looks very, very old in comparison with the young studs in Philly and Dallas.

Team needs to move on from Eli. That process will begin for real when the Giants select a QB in the Top 3 picks of 2018 Draft.
jeez Louise - are you obessessed or what?!  
LG in NYC : 11/13/2017 10:17 am : link
Your opening post doesn't even make sense... so Eli has no receivers to throw to so his one consistent weapon all year has gotten a lot of production? and that tells us what exactly?

Eli looked good yesterday aside from the fumble. Crisp passes, good accuracy for the most part. Again, nothing was eye-pooping but that's ok. He was good enough to win on another day with a better defense and had Pugh stayed in the game. Again what is the big news here?

You seem to want to constantly argue against people who offer any criticism of his game, or suggest there is value in seeing what Webb can do, or (gasp) suggest that Eli may not be the QB past next year.

For all of Eli's strengths, he is not athletic, not particularly accurate, and doesn't throw the long ball particularly well anymore. And while he is smart, he is also good for 1 or 2 boneheaded plays/throws per game, it seems.

That isn't b/c he WR's got hurt in Game 6 (or 5, whatever it was)... this has been the case for a while now... so don't blame it on injuries.

all that said, give Eli a line and some weapons and he will be fine. Beyond that, I don't get your incessant chirping about him. you must have other thoughts that occupy your head, no?
Britt  
BigBlueShock : 11/13/2017 10:18 am : link
When you say the “Eli is in decline crowd”, are you suggesting that he’s not? At 36 do you think he’s still the same exact guy that he was a decade ago? Sorry man but Father Time is undefeated. It happens to everyone. It’s happened to all of his draft companions as well. It’s ok to admit it.
Although Eli is in a system that is supposed to allow him to  
Elite Mobster #32 : 11/13/2017 10:18 am : link
get the ball out quicker, that's not his strength.

He cant make those short passes accurately. He throws them high. He can throw downfield a lot better so that's what he should do.
until the Defense mailed it in, I thought the offense was looking  
Victor in CT : 11/13/2017 10:19 am : link
pretty good. They were running the ball and mixing it up. They actually had the FULLBACK play!! Looked more like the TC/KG offense. Once the D shit the bed and they had to throw every down it was all over.
.  
arcarsenal : 11/13/2017 10:20 am : link
Believe it or not, it can actually be true that Eli is declining and the decline is being magnified by the lack of weapons on the offensive side of the ball right now.

In fact, I'd assume that's exactly what we're seeing.

Circumstances have not been on #10's side this year - but let's not act like he's done himself a ton of favors, either. He hasn't played well and he didn't play well last year, either.

It's possible that he's just nearing the end here.

Not everyone is Tom Brady.
I think the incessant chirping that he's the problem with this team  
Britt in VA : 11/13/2017 10:20 am : link
is equally annoying, especially when you factor in that it's been going on since 2009, if not earlier.

That said, I think Eli will play out his contract with the Giants, and I also think that with the right moves this offseason, the Giants (and Eli) will win again.
RE: RE: RE: Eli has been missing  
HomerJones45 : 11/13/2017 10:23 am : link
In comment 13689665 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13689628 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13689618 section125 said:


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deep throws all year. He can still sling it, but he deep throws have been awfully inaccurate going on two years, even when there is time and the receivers are very open.

Can he still play well enough to win, absolutely. Still better than 1/2 the league, but not much...



Eli has also been missing all of his starting receivers most of the year, as well. Chemistry is important.



He has missed a wide open Shepard and others. He has missed Engram. I don't buy the chemistry except on read plays. A guy running open down the middle or a throw to the pillion (King last week) should not be badly missed.
You need to watch other qb's- they all miss. As for the deep throws, we simply do not throw down the field. Longest pass play yesterday was 26 yards on Shepard's catch and run. No one else caught a pass in excess of 15 yards. We averaged less than 10 yards a catch. The Browns yesterday had pass plays of 35, 38, 18 and 19.

It's a bad offense. When Kizer is allowed to throw the ball down the field and Manning is not, there is a problem with the offense.
Of course Eli can still play at a high level  
greatgrandpa : 11/13/2017 10:24 am : link
But age and hits have clearly taken their toll on him. His courage to stand in the pocket till the last second is still there but his accuracy is down and his mobility is zero. He simply cannot move very far even in the pocket. Like any good QB He needs a great line and a running game to excel. He has neither (thanks Reece) and now has rookies or just inexperienced receivers running routes. He is forcing throws due to pressure and its probably a combination of (poor) route running, pressure to release the ball and the fact that Eli's 'wobblers' that used to find their mark in a crowd seem to come in higher (due to a bit of a loss of arm strength) and result in overthrows/incompletions. The question is not can Eli still play. The question is does the team do a rebuild around a 38-39 year old extremely immobile QB? Do they ask him if he will accept a trade to a contender for another shot at a Superbowl given the Giants are going to have 30 or so new players next year and might be 8-8. Does he want to end his career in New York? Its still his choice as to a trade.
The chemistry issue is a cop out  
ajr2456 : 11/13/2017 10:24 am : link
This is what, week 4 without Odell and Marshall? Roger Lewis and King were in training camp.

He made some good throws yesterday, and that's going to happen because he's an NFL QB. Favre could probably go out there and make a couple of great throws in a game.

However, he also made a number of bad throws - the hospital ball to King being one.

His deep ball, which was once his strength has been inaccurate even when he has time.

Both can be true that Eli's skills are in decline, and he lacks talent around him at the moment.
NorwoodWideRight.....  
I Love Clams Casino : 11/13/2017 10:24 am : link
what was with the bogus McAdoo post man?
RE: .  
BrettNYG10 : 11/13/2017 10:25 am : link
In comment 13689698 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Believe it or not, it can actually be true that Eli is declining and the decline is being magnified by the lack of weapons on the offensive side of the ball right now.

In fact, I'd assume that's exactly what we're seeing.

Circumstances have not been on #10's side this year - but let's not act like he's done himself a ton of favors, either. He hasn't played well and he didn't play well last year, either.

It's possible that he's just nearing the end here.

Not everyone is Tom Brady.


Yeah, I think Eli can still be successful if the offense is well-built. I don't know if he's going to be able to elevate offenses the way he has in the past (2009-2011, etc., even as recent as 14/15). Maybe he can, but if the opportunity presents itself to draft an elite QB, I think you take it.

If Eli doesn't retire as a Giant because of that young QB pushing for time, I'd be happy to see him go elsewhere and succeed.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Eli has been missing  
ajr2456 : 11/13/2017 10:26 am : link
In comment 13689709 HomerJones45 said:
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In comment 13689665 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 13689628 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13689618 section125 said:


Quote:


deep throws all year. He can still sling it, but he deep throws have been awfully inaccurate going on two years, even when there is time and the receivers are very open.

Can he still play well enough to win, absolutely. Still better than 1/2 the league, but not much...



Eli has also been missing all of his starting receivers most of the year, as well. Chemistry is important.



He has missed a wide open Shepard and others. He has missed Engram. I don't buy the chemistry except on read plays. A guy running open down the middle or a throw to the pillion (King last week) should not be badly missed.

You need to watch other qb's- they all miss. As for the deep throws, we simply do not throw down the field. Longest pass play yesterday was 26 yards on Shepard's catch and run. No one else caught a pass in excess of 15 yards. We averaged less than 10 yards a catch. The Browns yesterday had pass plays of 35, 38, 18 and 19.

It's a bad offense. When Kizer is allowed to throw the ball down the field and Manning is not, there is a problem with the offense.


We've taken deep shots all year. You're only looking at the ones that are caught, but did you tally up the deep passes that were incomplete?
RE: I think the incessant chirping that he's the problem with this team  
family progtitioner : 11/13/2017 10:28 am : link
In comment 13689701 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
is equally annoying, especially when you factor in that it's been going on since 2009, if not earlier.

That said, I think Eli will play out his contract with the Giants, and I also think that with the right moves this offseason, the Giants (and Eli) will win again.


I think there's like 2 people on this site who think he's been a problem since 2009. C'mon, the vast, overwhelming consensus on this site is that Reese has not drafted well at all and has been unable to assemble a team (esp O line) around him. Mac doesn't help and the injuries are just the cherry on top this year. That combined with him declining and now having poor pocket presence is what has led to this shitshow
RE: .  
Greg from LI : 11/13/2017 10:29 am : link
In comment 13689698 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Believe it or not, it can actually be true that Eli is declining and the decline is being magnified by the lack of weapons on the offensive side of the ball right now.


It's pretty obviously the case. The team around him sucks, but he's still not making plays that are there.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Eli has been missing  
section125 : 11/13/2017 10:34 am : link
In comment 13689709 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 13689665 section125 said:


Quote: o

You need to watch other qb's- they all miss. As for the deep throws, we simply do not throw down the field. Longest pass play yesterday was 26 yards on Shepard's catch and run. No one else caught a pass in excess of 15 yards. We averaged less than 10 yards a catch. The Browns yesterday had pass plays of 35, 38, 18 and 19.

It's a bad offense. When Kizer is allowed to throw the ball down the field and Manning is not, there is a problem with the offense.


Of course other QBs miss. Eli is still throwing down field and he missing and that is why you can't remember he is throwing down field. Every QB misses some deep throws, and Eli was always reliable on deep passes, but now he is missing. That throw to Shepard last week was brutally bad - it wasn't even close. I cannot remember the game earlier where he missed two or three open guys deep. Even if underthrown, they would have set up the offense.
The dude is 37  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 11/13/2017 10:34 am : link
At some point you guys are going to have to let this go. He is in decline. Yes, the team sucks, but it is obvious he is in decline if you're not wearing blue and red glasses.

Lots if folks are in so much denial that they propose that he has a few years in him, YEARS. There is obviously a lot of delusion on this topic.
A couple things...  
silverfox : 11/13/2017 10:38 am : link
1) He doesn't fit. This offense is not the kind that ELI should be playing in. This offense in its current form needs anything but a slow, fumbling, pocket QB...and an aging one at that.

2) He looks old, plays old, and can't hold onto the damn ball. He is good for at least one turnover a game and he had many games where he had more than one. Defenses are licking their chops playing against Eli. He is no threat to them any longer. His long ball isn't that great anymore and he rarely ever hits a receiver in stride. The receivers almost always have to make contortions or leap tall buildings to catch his damn passes.

He had his glory...now its time to face reality. He can't carry the team anymore and frankly he never seemed like the LEADER type. He's a passive guy that this team doesn't need. In fact, they don't need any passive guys on this team. They need young, hungry, aggressive, fearless players. He plays like a $20 mil QB playing poorly...he knows he gets paid either way and knows they won't bench him. Its pretty obvious.
If he was throwing balloon balls like his brother did at the end  
HomerJones45 : 11/13/2017 10:39 am : link
then you might have an argument about this so-called decline, but he's not. There is plenty of zip on the ball.

You could have God Almighty qb this trash offense and it would have issues. Get rid of the doofus HC-OC and get a legitimate NFL offensive scheme in here and Manning should be able to execute it at a high level.
RE: If he was throwing balloon balls like his brother did at the end  
ajr2456 : 11/13/2017 10:41 am : link
In comment 13689746 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
then you might have an argument about this so-called decline, but he's not. There is plenty of zip on the ball.

You could have God Almighty qb this trash offense and it would have issues. Get rid of the doofus HC-OC and get a legitimate NFL offensive scheme in here and Manning should be able to execute it at a high level.


So you think at age 37, his skills are not in decline?
RE: If he was throwing balloon balls like his brother did at the end  
arcarsenal : 11/13/2017 10:43 am : link
In comment 13689746 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
then you might have an argument about this so-called decline, but he's not. There is plenty of zip on the ball.

You could have God Almighty qb this trash offense and it would have issues. Get rid of the doofus HC-OC and get a legitimate NFL offensive scheme in here and Manning should be able to execute it at a high level.


If you can't see any decline in ability here - I don't know what to tell you.

It's there.
RE: RE: If he was throwing balloon balls like his brother did at the end  
Britt in VA : 11/13/2017 10:44 am : link
In comment 13689755 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 13689746 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


then you might have an argument about this so-called decline, but he's not. There is plenty of zip on the ball.

You could have God Almighty qb this trash offense and it would have issues. Get rid of the doofus HC-OC and get a legitimate NFL offensive scheme in here and Manning should be able to execute it at a high level.



So you think at age 37, his skills are not in decline?


I think it is overstated.
Its funny  
gmen9892 : 11/13/2017 10:44 am : link
Looking at Eli's stats this year, hes actually putting together a pretty solid season. This is without OBJ for most of the season. Eli is still good for a mind-numbing mistake every once in awhile (see fumble from yesterday), but he can still chuck it. There was a play where he was throwing an corner route to Shepard deep down the field, and had Shepard not come up lame early in the route, would have been dropped on a dime deep down the field.

He is capable of making all the throws still, if given the time (which he has been getting more of later in the season). Just wish he had the weapons and a healthy Pugh to settle down the OL even more.
RE: Its funny  
Britt in VA : 11/13/2017 10:45 am : link
In comment 13689764 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
Looking at Eli's stats this year, hes actually putting together a pretty solid season. This is without OBJ for most of the season. Eli is still good for a mind-numbing mistake every once in awhile (see fumble from yesterday), but he can still chuck it. There was a play where he was throwing an corner route to Shepard deep down the field, and had Shepard not come up lame early in the route, would have been dropped on a dime deep down the field.

He is capable of making all the throws still, if given the time (which he has been getting more of later in the season). Just wish he had the weapons and a healthy Pugh to settle down the OL even more.


That's all I've been saying.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 11/13/2017 10:46 am : link
In comment 13689716 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 13689698 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Believe it or not, it can actually be true that Eli is declining and the decline is being magnified by the lack of weapons on the offensive side of the ball right now.

In fact, I'd assume that's exactly what we're seeing.

Circumstances have not been on #10's side this year - but let's not act like he's done himself a ton of favors, either. He hasn't played well and he didn't play well last year, either.

It's possible that he's just nearing the end here.

Not everyone is Tom Brady.



Yeah, I think Eli can still be successful if the offense is well-built. I don't know if he's going to be able to elevate offenses the way he has in the past (2009-2011, etc., even as recent as 14/15). Maybe he can, but if the opportunity presents itself to draft an elite QB, I think you take it.

If Eli doesn't retire as a Giant because of that young QB pushing for time, I'd be happy to see him go elsewhere and succeed.


I agree - I don't think he's shot, but I think for an offense to be good with Eli now, it has to be really built to his strengths. He'd need a strong running game, good pass pro, and good weapons.

This isn't a player who is going to elevate the guys around him at this stage.

And it's nothing against Eli. Some fans seem to take this personally or feel like it's a slight.

Of course, there are people who have been trying to bury the guy for years or blame EVERYTHING on him - which also isn't fair.

But if people still can't admit that he's declining at this point, I'm not sure what to tell them. That part is clear even if this is not all his fault.
RE: The dude is 37  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/13/2017 10:48 am : link
In comment 13689731 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
At some point you guys are going to have to let this go. He is in decline. Yes, the team sucks, but it is obvious he is in decline if you're not wearing blue and red glasses.

Lots if folks are in so much denial that they propose that he has a few years in him, YEARS. There is obviously a lot of delusion on this topic.


It's an obsession at this point.
couple things  
hitdog42 : 11/13/2017 10:49 am : link
1) he is in decline
2) he has played fine in recent weeks in the grand scheme--- far from the biggest issue.
3) garbage time stats are helping him out so referencing the numbers ... when the offense clearly struggles to put up points... its kind of a reach


Shepherd is a weapon  
jeff57 : 11/13/2017 10:54 am : link
.
RE: RE: .  
old man : 11/13/2017 11:14 am : link
In comment 13689723 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 13689698 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Believe it or not, it can actually be true that Eli is declining and the decline is being magnified by the lack of weapons on the offensive side of the ball right now.



It's pretty obviously the case. The team around him sucks, but he's still not making plays that are there.


As an Eli fanboy....yes they are in decline.
He compounds his fails with his passes to the turf, his easy fumbling, his forcing plays.
His buttparking are a form of business decisions for survival thanks to lack of confidence in his OL since the SF playoff game in '11. By 2014 the improvement on a scale of 10 was 3; in 2017 the improvement over'12 is -2.
Thank you JR.
Declining enough to retire? No.
A 2 year window? Likely, and a 3 year max.
1 year with a sufficient OL and the weapons back...and a D that won't tank should be worth 5- 6 wins and a top 12-15 pick.
RE: RE: RE: If he was throwing balloon balls like his brother did at the end  
ajr2456 : 11/13/2017 11:38 am : link
In comment 13689763 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13689755 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 13689746 HomerJones45 said:


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then you might have an argument about this so-called decline, but he's not. There is plenty of zip on the ball.

You could have God Almighty qb this trash offense and it would have issues. Get rid of the doofus HC-OC and get a legitimate NFL offensive scheme in here and Manning should be able to execute it at a high level.



So you think at age 37, his skills are not in decline?



I think it is overstated.


You realize his skills are going to decline more next year, and more the year after? He could fall of the cliff next year. It's always better to move on from a player a year early rather than a year too late.
He might be the easiest QB in the league to scheme against  
JerseyCityJoe : 11/13/2017 11:45 am : link
Fair or unfair nobody is afraid of Eli coming to town.
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