Would you agree that Eli has had pretty much no weapons on offense to throw to outside of Evan Engram?
Let's look at Evan Engram in relation to the rest of the TE's in the NFL:
He's 5th in receptions with 40
He's 8th in yards with 443
He's 2nd in the league in TD's with 5
I read this morning that Evan Engram is the first rookie TE since the merger in 1970 to reach 400 yards and 5 TD's through 8 games.
So my question is this: Is Eli in decline except when he's throwing to Engram?
Engram is a tough cover. He gets open. On any team he's putting up stats.
Have his skills declined, sure just like Big Ben and Rivers.
Is he still a top 1/3 QB, yes he is.
Is he the real problem here, no he's not.
One way to help him out might be to consider Gary Kubiak as the offensive coordinator in the event that the coaching staff is overhauled. Kubiak employs the stretch handoffs and play action off that as well as anyone, allowing for deeper drops and more downfield passing (which better fits Eli's strengths than McAdoo does). Kubiak also has experience with older, immobile quarterbacks named Manning.
I think a coaching staff of Mike Smith as head coach and Gary Kubiak as OC could help, and is within the realm of the realistic.
Quote:
then you might have an argument about this so-called decline, but he's not. There is plenty of zip on the ball.
You could have God Almighty qb this trash offense and it would have issues. Get rid of the doofus HC-OC and get a legitimate NFL offensive scheme in here and Manning should be able to execute it at a high level.
So you think at age 37, his skills are not in decline?
One way to help him out might be to consider Gary Kubiak as the offensive coordinator in the event that the coaching staff is overhauled. Kubiak employs the stretch handoffs and play action off that as well as anyone, allowing for deeper drops and more downfield passing (which better fits Eli's strengths than McAdoo does). Kubiak also has experience with older, immobile quarterbacks named Manning.
I think a coaching staff of Mike Smith as head coach and Gary Kubiak as OC could help, and is within the realm of the realistic.
I think your first sentence is what a lot of people are missing. He might not look like he's totally shot now, but that could be the case day one next season. It's a risky game when your QB starts to decline.
I see a QB who can still make all of the throws. I see a QB who hasn’t missed any games and hasn’t sustained any injuries. Statistically he’s been solid. We haven’t even seen one of those 3-4 pick games (knock on wood) that he would have in his prime years. Not that it matters at this point.
Personally I think he could play at a SB winning level for the next 4 seasons unless he sustains a fluke injury. Whether the organization can build a SB caliber staff and team around him is a different story.
If you feel the same, then it doesn’t make sense to blow it up and draft a QB. If you don’t feel the same about Eli, and there’s been plenty of anti-Eli people out there for years, then obviously you want to go in another direction. It’s as simple as that.
How anyone could sit there with a straight face and say that is beyond me.
That said, I think Eli will play out his contract with the Giants, and I also think that with the right moves this offseason, the Giants (and Eli) will win again.
No one (or very few) has said that he's the problem with the team. But to deny that he's in decline and that his physical decline is a problem with this team is just ignoring reality.
How anyone could sit there with a straight face and say that is beyond me.
Arguing semantics. Is he the QB of ‘11? No. Can he still play at a level capable of winning a championship? Definitely.
If it's what we saw from Peyton Manning in Denver a couple years ago, that bar is pretty low - so technically, yes. That would be true.
Sure, if you gave Eli a strong ground game, good pass protecting OL and a few weapons, I think he'd do just fine.
Years ago, Eli could have done more with less. But that's not the case now. So, for that reason, I fail to see how anyone could really argue that he isn't or hasn't declined.
He can still play - but he's not going to carry this offense or win us many games on his own shoulders.
1. Being Anti-Eli
2. Blaming Eli for ALL of the teams problems
3. Suggesting that other QBs are perfect
Why do these narratives always get thrown out there? Why can’t it be that people are incredibly appreciative of Eli and what he has done for this team and he will always be a legend, while simultaneously acknowledging that his best days may be behind him? Thats not being anti Eli, blaming him for all of the problems or suggesting that other QBs don’t miss some throws.
I brought this up in another thread and promptly got called anti Eli, lol. Typical response, though and cements my point.
He is not and has not been the problem with why this team is 1-8. If the D made stops in the 3 games they led in the 4th quarter they'd be 4-5 and we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
I see a QB who can still make all of the throws. I see a QB who hasn’t missed any games and hasn’t sustained any injuries. Statistically he’s been solid. We haven’t even seen one of those 3-4 pick games (knock on wood) that he would have in his prime years. Not that it matters at this point.
Personally I think he could play at a SB winning level for the next 4 seasons unless he sustains a fluke injury. Whether the organization can build a SB caliber staff and team around him is a different story.
If you feel the same, then it doesn’t make sense to blow it up and draft a QB. If you don’t feel the same about Eli, and there’s been plenty of anti-Eli people out there for years, then obviously you want to go in another direction. It’s as simple as that.
All the throws? Eli hasn’t thrown 10+ yards to the field side consistently in a couple of years
How anyone could sit there with a straight face and say that is beyond me.
So, I don't think there is any need to panic and believe Eli will finish out his contract here and play just fine. I do think it is necessary to spend a #1 pick on a qb in 2018 (which makes the Webb pick unfathomable: they don't need a developmental prospect, they need a successor. That #3 could have been spent elsewhere.)
Quote:
If you don' think Eli is in any sort of decline, it means you still believe he is in the prime of his career.
How anyone could sit there with a straight face and say that is beyond me.
You are conflating to separate questions: Have his skills declined? and Is it time to prepare for the future? I think the answer to the first question is no and the answer to the second question is yes. I can see Manning have a Favre like end to his career: Favre threw for 10000 yards and 66 td's AFTER leaving GB at age 38. Right now, Brees and Brady are both older than Eli and no one is talking about declining skills.
So, I don't think there is any need to panic and believe Eli will finish out his contract here and play just fine. I do think it is necessary to spend a #1 pick on a qb in 2018 (which makes the Webb pick unfathomable: they don't need a developmental prospect, they need a successor. That #3 could have been spent elsewhere.)
I completely disagree that his skills have not declined at all. He's 36 years old. It would almost be hard to believe if they hadn't.
I can also assure you that a 2009-esque Favre season in Minnesota is not in the cards for Eli.
Eli has had a heck of a career - but he's not Brett Favre.
Quote:
If you don' think Eli is in any sort of decline, it means you still believe he is in the prime of his career.
How anyone could sit there with a straight face and say that is beyond me.
You are conflating to separate questions: Have his skills declined? and Is it time to prepare for the future? I think the answer to the first question is no and the answer to the second question is yes. I can see Manning have a Favre like end to his career: Favre threw for 10000 yards and 66 td's AFTER leaving GB at age 38. Right now, Brees and Brady are both older than Eli and no one is talking about declining skills.
So, I don't think there is any need to panic and believe Eli will finish out his contract here and play just fine. I do think it is necessary to spend a #1 pick on a qb in 2018 (which makes the Webb pick unfathomable: they don't need a developmental prospect, they need a successor. That #3 could have been spent elsewhere.)
The Webb pick was unfathomable? Why? How do you know that he’s not any good? How do you know he can’t be the successor? They were going to take a QB at some point and I’m sure they weren’t planning on having a top 3 pick this year when they made the Webb pick.
It’s funny, they take a guy that they think can be Eli’s successor in a couple of years and they still get killed for wasting a pick because now they will have a chance to land a top 3 pick.
If it's what we saw from Peyton Manning in Denver a couple years ago, that bar is pretty low - so technically, yes. That would be true.
Sure, if you gave Eli a strong ground game, good pass protecting OL and a few weapons, I think he'd do just fine.
Years ago, Eli could have done more with less. But that's not the case now. So, for that reason, I fail to see how anyone could really argue that he isn't or hasn't declined.
He can still play - but he's not going to carry this offense or win us many games on his own shoulders.
The thing is this wouldn’t even be a conversation if the Giants were looking at picking in the 20’s in the ‘18 draft. But because the Giants are looking at a top 5 pick, they HAVE to draft Eli’s successor. I disagree with that approach. That approach is the reason why the Colts are in the situation they’re currently in.
The Peyton point is ridiculous. Eli obviously looks better than Peyton in Denver and he doesn’t need an all-world defense to win games. In GB last year I saw a QB more than capable of making a playoff run. Not his fault the receivers didn’t show up.
Like I said earlier, it all comes down to what you think about Eli. If you think he’s washed, then you draft a QB, hope he’s not a bust, and hope the FO can build a new OL before the new QB has to play. If you think he can still play, you use the ‘18 draft as an opportunity to correct the bad decisions of the Reese administration.
2. Have his skills eroded to the point that he cannot help his team win? Not at all.
How anyone could sit there with a straight face and say that is beyond me.
Quote:
Well, what really is a "level capable of winning a championship" ?
If it's what we saw from Peyton Manning in Denver a couple years ago, that bar is pretty low - so technically, yes. That would be true.
Sure, if you gave Eli a strong ground game, good pass protecting OL and a few weapons, I think he'd do just fine.
Years ago, Eli could have done more with less. But that's not the case now. So, for that reason, I fail to see how anyone could really argue that he isn't or hasn't declined.
He can still play - but he's not going to carry this offense or win us many games on his own shoulders.
The thing is this wouldn’t even be a conversation if the Giants were looking at picking in the 20’s in the ‘18 draft. But because the Giants are looking at a top 5 pick, they HAVE to draft Eli’s successor. I disagree with that approach. That approach is the reason why the Colts are in the situation they’re currently in.
The Peyton point is ridiculous. Eli obviously looks better than Peyton in Denver and he doesn’t need an all-world defense to win games. In GB last year I saw a QB more than capable of making a playoff run. Not his fault the receivers didn’t show up.
Like I said earlier, it all comes down to what you think about Eli. If you think he’s washed, then you draft a QB, hope he’s not a bust, and hope the FO can build a new OL before the new QB has to play. If you think he can still play, you use the ‘18 draft as an opportunity to correct the bad decisions of the Reese administration.
The point wasn't to compare him to Peyton side by side - the point was that "a QB you can win with" can cover an extremely wide-range of possibilities.
Peyton was terrible at the end - but Denver still won a Super Bowl with him. So, if you say you can still win with a particular QB, it doesn't really say much about the QB at all.
Bottom line is that to win with Eli now you need to provide him with much more than he would have needed ~5 years ago.
The Giants should draft the player they feel will have the greatest net value to the team regardless of how they view Eli.
Even if you think Eli hasn't diminished that much, it's still unrealistic to expect much more out of him so if there's a QB they really like, they should draft him. Whether they want him to be the starter ASAP or not.
The longer we try to win with Eli, the more expensive it's going to get to put that team around him because the longer we try to do this, the better it's going to need to be.
I don't.
What did he have around him in 2015 besides Beckham?
He was markedly better that year than he was last year or this year. And that was only two years ago.
You don't want to believe Eli is declining, so you choose not to.
Quote:
I believe you would have seen the same thing five years ago.
I don't.
What did he have around him in 2015 besides Beckham?
He was markedly better that year than he was last year or this year. And that was only two years ago.
Playbook changed, offense went in the tank. That's what was obvious, to me.
You don't want to believe Eli is declining, so you choose not to.
I don't think so, I think I'm seeing things very clearly, and called many of them early last season. I was one of the few on the board that did, that early.
If the move is to go forward with him, then the team needs to stop fucking around regarding protection. If the Giants have a time machine they should hire Joe Gibbs and Joe Bugel to run the offense.
Max protections, play action, move the pocket.
It should be fairly easy to see if it's so obvious. Is he one hopping balls to receivers? Deep ball not getting there? What exactly is so obviously in decline?
If the move is to go forward with him, then the team needs to stop fucking around regarding protection. If the Giants have a time machine they should hire Joe Gibbs and Joe Bugel to run the offense.
Max protections, play action, move the pocket.
Agreed.
And I'm not against drafting his successor this year in the first round, either.
You can do both, build the team to win now and groom his replacement at the same time. I don't understand why it has to be either or.
We've had that a few times THIS season. We still haven't been able to eclipse 30 points offensively in about 20 consecutive tries now and still lost every game aside from the game we played in Denver where Eli barely even completed 10 passes.
That win has become even less impressive now after knowing that Denver hasn't won since and have been terrible.
Quote:
you put an average line in front of Eli this offseason with any semblance of a run game, you will see him perform next season.
We've had that a few times THIS season. We still haven't been able to eclipse 30 points offensively in about 20 consecutive tries now and still lost every game aside from the game we played in Denver where Eli barely even completed 10 passes.
That win has become even less impressive now after knowing that Denver hasn't won since and have been terrible.
So Eli went off a cliff after 2015, from having two of his best seasons, because of this decline? That's what you're saying?
And the fact that we haven't scored 30 points is also because of this?
I'm going to vehemently disagree. That is McAdoo's offense, not Eli Manning.
You're making it sound like he's going to have to get to a point where he's just spiking 3 out of every 5 throws into the ground until you believe he's actually declining.
His pocket awareness has declined, he's missed several throws that he should be capable of making, he's still turning the ball over far too often.
If a QB needs absolutely ideal circumstances to succeed, then I think you have to wonder how good that QB still is.
The change in playstyle from Coughlin to McAdoo was painfully obvious, and now should be crystal clear.
Quote:
In comment 13690327 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
you put an average line in front of Eli this offseason with any semblance of a run game, you will see him perform next season.
We've had that a few times THIS season. We still haven't been able to eclipse 30 points offensively in about 20 consecutive tries now and still lost every game aside from the game we played in Denver where Eli barely even completed 10 passes.
That win has become even less impressive now after knowing that Denver hasn't won since and have been terrible.
So Eli went off a cliff after 2015, from having two of his best seasons, because of this decline? That's what you're saying?
And the fact that we haven't scored 30 points is also because of this?
I'm going to vehemently disagree. That is McAdoo's offense, not Eli Manning.
Look at the season Brett Favre had in 2009 and look how bad he was the very next year.
When players get this old, they can hit a wall fast. The declines aren't always extremely gradual and long-lasting.
You're making it sound like he's going to have to get to a point where he's just spiking 3 out of every 5 throws into the ground until you believe he's actually declining.
His pocket awareness has declined, he's missed several throws that he should be capable of making, he's still turning the ball over far too often.
If a QB needs absolutely ideal circumstances to succeed, then I think you have to wonder how good that QB still is.
They don't need to be ideal, just decent. Getting hit as your throwing in under 2 seconds is sub standard conditions.
Give him a line and a running game he's going to perform!! Way to go out on a limb
Quote:
They say that arm strength is actually one of the LAST things you'll see go with a QB.
You're making it sound like he's going to have to get to a point where he's just spiking 3 out of every 5 throws into the ground until you believe he's actually declining.
His pocket awareness has declined, he's missed several throws that he should be capable of making, he's still turning the ball over far too often.
If a QB needs absolutely ideal circumstances to succeed, then I think you have to wonder how good that QB still is.
They don't need to be ideal, just decent. Getting hit as your throwing in under 2 seconds is sub standard conditions.
That's not what's happening every time he throws the ball. It's an over-exaggeration.
It seems like you don't want to lay a single shred of blame at Eli's feet for anything. It's all everyone else. The coach, the line, the other players.
Roethlisberger is having a crappy year too. These guys aren't young anymore. The vast majority of QB's don't last this long.
Quote:
In comment 13690343 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13690327 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
you put an average line in front of Eli this offseason with any semblance of a run game, you will see him perform next season.
We've had that a few times THIS season. We still haven't been able to eclipse 30 points offensively in about 20 consecutive tries now and still lost every game aside from the game we played in Denver where Eli barely even completed 10 passes.
That win has become even less impressive now after knowing that Denver hasn't won since and have been terrible.
So Eli went off a cliff after 2015, from having two of his best seasons, because of this decline? That's what you're saying?
And the fact that we haven't scored 30 points is also because of this?
I'm going to vehemently disagree. That is McAdoo's offense, not Eli Manning.
Look at the season Brett Favre had in 2009 and look how bad he was the very next year.
When players get this old, they can hit a wall fast. The declines aren't always extremely gradual and long-lasting.
Favre was 41! Eli is 36. And secondly, in one of Favre's final games before getting KO'd, he threw for a career high 446 yards and brought the Vikings back from 14 down to win in overtime against the Cardinals.
Eli is not Favre, but Favre's career was ultimately due to injury, then concussion, not from "hitting a wall".
for me, this is about starting new across the board. it is my sincere hope as a Giants fan that we wipe the slate clean this off season and build a new organization... GM, HC, coordinators, several key players... and with that I want to turn the page on Eli by 2018/19 at least.
He has had some amazing moments and seasons for sure but he is not the guy I want going forward for the next several years. I want a big, mobile QB who can extend a play with his feet and is an 11th athlete on the field.
When i think of Eli, I think "smart" and "poised"... those have been his big strengths. and that has made up for his lack of accuracy and athleticism. But he is less poised today than he was several years ago... justified or not, that is a big detriment to his game.
I just don't want us making decision for the next decade around a 36/37 year old statue of QB who is skittish in the pocket and isn't accurate. So I am not trying to run him out of town, but I want is to take advantage of our very high draft pick and new management/coaching staff to get a team together that has a coordinated identity and is built for the long haul.
Eli will never decline. All he's missing is an elite OL... and a great ground game.. and a better defense on the other side of the ball... and more skill players.
Once he has all of that, he'll prove everyone wrong!
Eli will never decline. All he's missing is an elite OL... and a great ground game.. and a better defense on the other side of the ball... and more skill players.
Once he has all of that, he'll prove everyone wrong!
I didn't say any of that. You're overstating. It's unnecessary.
Regardless, he was 41. Eli is 36.
Quote:
Okay, Britt...
Eli will never decline. All he's missing is an elite OL... and a great ground game.. and a better defense on the other side of the ball... and more skill players.
Once he has all of that, he'll prove everyone wrong!
I didn't say any of that. You're overstating. It's unnecessary.
Because you're completely unwilling to acknowledge that Eli is responsible for anything detrimental to the current state of the football team.
You want to blame every single factor besides him.
Drew Brees has had less average time to throw than Eli has and is having a very strong season.
Not sure why it's so hard to admit that it's likely Eli has declined a bit but is also being hurt by circumstances. Like I said in my first response - it can be, and likely IS both.