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To the crowd that says NO to re-signing Pugh/Richburg

est1986 : 11/13/2017 6:20 pm
Fluker and Jones are also free agents. John Jerry is signed up, but he should not be a starter entering next season. So other than Flowers who you guys either don't want back at LT or don't want back at all... Please tell us what OL we will have next season... And then tell us how that will be better than this year's group...
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they are not siamese twins  
idiotsavant : 11/13/2017 7:58 pm : link
probably even richburg knows -he- is gone.

Expect at least two, maybe three, new, high value line starters, a line centric GM, a line centric HC, a new OC and a new Line coach.

Hopefully a group with some success -together- to a certain extent.
RE: Pugh  
Diver_Down : 11/13/2017 7:59 pm : link
In comment 13691060 Fish said:
Quote:
Goes to philly for less money. Thatís my bet.


I would hope so. At least we will be able to get pressure on Wentz twice a year.
Trade down  
WillVAB : 11/13/2017 7:59 pm : link
Take Quenton Nelson (OG) and Orlando Brown (OT). Sign Swanson or Schewenke as your Center.

Flowers-Nelson-Swanson-Jerry-Brown

Another option would be to take Nelson after a trade down then take another guard in the 2nd or 3rd and hope Wheeler can hold down RT. Use the other 1st and other 2nd on a pass rusher and true LB.

Itís not that tough to fix if the Giants commit to it.
Giants will do their best  
Rory : 11/13/2017 8:07 pm : link
To resign one of the 2.

Fans need to wake up and understand that NCAA offensive lineman are not game ready coming out of college anymore. Look around the league and the last top 10 players coming out of college have all been slow or have outright busted

Vets who know the game and have chemistry are likelier to build a solid line around However, you have to pay for that chemistry.
Ask the Vikings  
Stan in LA : 11/13/2017 8:28 pm : link
Who changed all 5 position from last year and now are 7-2.
Has Pugh Played an Entire Season?  
Samiam : 11/13/2017 8:33 pm : link
Seems to me heís missed a few games every year since heís been here, any truth to that?
RE: Pugh has missed time with concussions too  
Rjanyg : 11/13/2017 8:33 pm : link
In comment 13691062 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
These guys are not what we want moving forward. Flowers is improving. Fluker is improving. Jones is playing better than expected. I would find a left guard (Quentin Nelson-Notre Dame in trade up from our 2nd round slot) and a RT (probably a FA) and keep building with another C prospect (Billy Smith-Ohio St.) in the 3rd round. Our top pick will likely be a QB or RB-Saquon Barkley.


Agreed.
RE: Giants will do their best  
WillVAB : 11/13/2017 8:36 pm : link
In comment 13691086 Rory said:
Quote:
To resign one of the 2.

Fans need to wake up and understand that NCAA offensive lineman are not game ready coming out of college anymore. Look around the league and the last top 10 players coming out of college have all been slow or have outright busted

Vets who know the game and have chemistry are likelier to build a solid line around However, you have to pay for that chemistry.


Where are you getting these facts from? Cam Robinson and Ryan Ramcyzk prove exactly the opposite.
.  
idiotsavant : 11/13/2017 8:38 pm : link
Pugh/Nelson/Jones\Gabe Jackson\Flowers

(new coach, oc, ol coach and system, +1 RB)
The  
AcidTest : 11/13/2017 8:39 pm : link
quickest way to ruin your cap is to overpay out of desperation.
The Saints O Line is great.  
Rjanyg : 11/13/2017 8:40 pm : link
Armstead at LT, Peat LG, Warford RG, Ramchyck RT

They really built an excellent OL. I think you guys saw they score 6 rushing TD's in Buffalo.
RE: Has Pugh Played an Entire Season?  
Diver_Down : 11/13/2017 8:45 pm : link
In comment 13691158 Samiam said:
Quote:
Seems to me heís missed a few games every year since heís been here, any truth to that?


He played 16 games his rookie year. Every year since, he has missed multiple games. So far this year, he has only missed 1 full game. His sore back started going into the bye. He missed the 2nd half yesterday, and I won't be surprised if he misses this week.
RE: The  
King Quis : 11/13/2017 8:45 pm : link
In comment 13691176 AcidTest said:
Quote:
quickest way to ruin your cap is to overpay out of desperation.





This !!!!
and probably draft another quality and hefty OG/C  
idiotsavant : 11/13/2017 8:46 pm : link
prospect high as well.
RE: Ask the Vikings  
jeffusedtobeonwebtv : 11/13/2017 9:03 pm : link
In comment 13691141 Stan in LA said:
Quote:
Who changed all 5 position from last year and now are 7-2.


Not only did they change their entire O-line, but they have that record playing Case Keenum, their 3rd string quarterback.

But they also do not have McAdoo as their coach! Or Reese as their GM!
It won't happen  
RetroJint : 11/13/2017 9:09 pm : link
because Reese went rent-a-line this season , but if these guys came back intact next season, they would mesh into a good unit. Pugh is gone . Westburg is probably gone. Fluker might find a taker. So it will start all over next year.
You can't overpay mediocrity or unavailability  
SLIM_ : 11/13/2017 9:19 pm : link
LT - Flowers. Worst case is he is at RT.

LG - Jerry. I'll say it again for the nth time. If he is your 5th best lineman, your line might be pretty good. If he is 4th, you still could be average.

C - Jones. Outside of Richburg being a number 2 pick, I haven't seen anything in about 2 years that shows Jones is a downgrade to Richburg. It's possible, he comes back but it would be for significantly less than originally thought.

RG - Fluker. If we can sign him for a similar deal that Jerry got this year, I would consider it.

RT - FA. At minimum an average one.

Draft - At least one 1st/2nd day pick. If you can get a Tackle early great, you may go with an interior player within the 1st 4 rounds also (with an eye on ultimately replacing Jerry/Jones.)

RE: RE: Giants will do their best  
Rory : 11/13/2017 9:33 pm : link
In comment 13691167 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 13691086 Rory said:


Quote:


To resign one of the 2.

Fans need to wake up and understand that NCAA offensive lineman are not game ready coming out of college anymore. Look around the league and the last top 10 players coming out of college have all been slow or have outright busted

Vets who know the game and have chemistry are likelier to build a solid line around However, you have to pay for that chemistry.



Where are you getting these facts from? Cam Robinson and Ryan Ramcyzk prove exactly the opposite.


Look who those guys are playing next too, those are elite lines.

Eric Fisher, Luke Joeckel, Jake Long, Greg Robinson prove my point.
RE: I know what Iím about  
MBavaro : 11/13/2017 9:36 pm : link
In comment 13690993 King Quis said:
Quote:
To say is blasphemy .... but I think we should trade Eli Manning before the start of season the benefits are:

- will only count 6 mil per year on the next 2 season we would save 16 mil to go towards the new OL.

- with the 9 mil plus that we save from not resigning Pugh / Richburg weíd have a min of 26 mill of cap space with arguably 2 of the first 33-34 pics in the draft

- bring fluker back at a similar deal, spread the 26 plus mil over three OL positions and draft one in the 2nd rd.

- get a QB to battle w/ Webb for the Keys to the Franchise


You do know that Eli has a.........................

A fuck it, nevermind......
It's a good question...  
Dan in the Springs : 11/13/2017 11:19 pm : link
because we have very few guys under contract next season, and we all want upgrades at every position as well.

Just because we don't have anyone under contract doesn't mean that we have to sign our own FA. The problems with Pugh/Richburg are health related as much as anything else. Additionally there could be problems with asking price.

If the asking price is right for each of them, I'm okay with bringing them back to compete for jobs. Unfortunately you can't really count on guys who are injured to be regular players for you, so we better have a strong plan A. Or these guys better be priced to be plan B's.

We also have a dire situation at LB if you look at who is under contract next year. The GM has its work cut out for them, that's for sure.
Pugh  
Dragon : 11/14/2017 12:49 am : link
Not sure at this time if the back is a real problem but he picked a bad time to develop a major concern. Iíll admit he could be the best RT presently on the team plus he brings a great deal of versatility but he is not worth more than 5-7 million for four years in a front loaded deal.

Our OL has two guys with a real future Flowers and Jones the Rest all come with many skills, injury and upside questions. Play these guys let them gain something from this season and judge them for game time experience not practice or PS. Check the league PS and waiver wires we donít have anyone at this time who canít be easily replaced on our OL. I donít buy the they need to work together they need to do their job then help if they can. We have some young kids now is the time to get them on the field see what you really have not what you think you have.
RE: Pugh  
Diver_Down : 11/14/2017 7:08 am : link
In comment 13691514 Dragon said:
Quote:
Not sure at this time if the back is a real problem but he picked a bad time to develop a major concern. Iíll admit he could be the best RT presently on the team plus he brings a great deal of versatility but he is not worth more than 5-7 million for four years in a front loaded deal.

Our OL has two guys with a real future Flowers and Jones the Rest all come with many skills, injury and upside questions. Play these guys let them gain something from this season and judge them for game time experience not practice or PS. Check the league PS and waiver wires we donít have anyone at this time who canít be easily replaced on our OL. I donít buy the they need to work together they need to do their job then help if they can. We have some young kids now is the time to get them on the field see what you really have not what you think you have.


Dragon has a valid point. The season is over except for evaluation purposes. We should be poaching other team's practice squads and get a good look for the remaining practice/game time. If they absolutely suck, then you release them and find another. Keep turning over the rocks and we are bound to find some talent. That should go for our LB situation. Every Tuesday should come with announcements of new signings. What is the downside? We are going to lose another game?
sorry  
gidiefor : Mod : 11/14/2017 7:21 am : link
I'm not paying them $10 million each to play in three or four games next year
salary cap forces you to cut bait on injury prone types. I also don't  
Victor in CT : 11/14/2017 8:19 am : link
think either of them are very good besidies being injury prone, so I wouldn't commit long term big $$.

As for scheme, wasn't the great Solari supposed to fix the mess that Flaherty supposedly left behind? That's what lots of people said here. Worked out well.
I guess Flats got his skills back at JAX, where they can actually run the ball and protect their QB
Put me in the let them walk camp  
JonC : 11/14/2017 8:27 am : link
Both are frequently unavailable, both are not remotely worth $10M per.

As another poster said, the desperate mentality got us stuck with Beatty, whom was a similar profile of NFL player.

It's going to be a huge challenge for this regime to rebuild the OL quickly.

RE: sorry  
njm : 11/14/2017 8:31 am : link
In comment 13691549 gidiefor said:
Quote:
I'm not paying them $10 million each to play in three or four games next year


Question is, will anyone else? The assumption in this thread seems to be that their injuries won't affect their market value. I'd suggest waiting to see what the market truly is. If they can be signed at a "discount" and you can add some young OL talent for the future in the draft it could be a plan.
...  
christian : 11/14/2017 8:34 am : link
Pugh is the more versatile, talented player. Let him gauge the market, and if the value is there he's in the conversation.

If he can be had for 25M guaranteed (big if), he's essentially a flat cost.
RE: Put me in the let them walk camp  
The_Boss : 11/14/2017 8:59 am : link
In comment 13691609 JonC said:
Quote:
Both are frequently unavailable, both are not remotely worth $10M per.

As another poster said, the desperate mentality got us stuck with Beatty, whom was a similar profile of NFL player.

It's going to be a huge challenge for this regime to rebuild the OL quickly.


Iíd rather just let the next regime rebuild it.
RE: Iím not sure why  
Beer Man : 11/14/2017 9:04 am : link
In comment 13690880 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Needing offensive lineman means me should resign players who are always hurt to big money contracts
+1. We have enough overpaid players sitting on the sidelines come Sundays. I think you resign Fluker. I believe Jones has a option. I like Justin P, but he can't stay healthy a full season. I am one of a few that likes Rich, but why overpay for him when there has been no drop-off with a cheaper Jones playing.
Fluker  
NikkiMac : 11/14/2017 9:17 am : link
Where on the tape is he playing so well I donít see it almost got Eli killed last week against the Rams didnít look to much better against the 49ers

I wouldnít resign him or Richburg and I would cut Jerry and B Hart and start from there with Flowers Pugh jones wheeler and cut Biznotaway too bring back Geddis and halapio
I'm curious what the staff currently thinks of Bisnowaty and Wheeler.  
Big Blue Blogger : 11/14/2017 10:06 am : link
Maybe it doesn't matter, since the Maras might fire everybody anyway. But we might get a small clue at the end of the regular season, from whether the Giants sign Bisnowaty to a reserve/future contract. They will almost certainly offer him one (it costs nothing), and I expect that he and his agent will consider the Giants - with their gaping holes at LG, RG and RT - his best opportunity.
I said,  
Doomster : 11/14/2017 10:11 am : link
this OL is going to be a clusterf*ck next season....we couldn't fix it in 7 seasons, and you think it will be fixed next year?

Fluker is not starter material, because he sucks in pass blocking.....

Flowers is under contract for one more year....do you want to re-sign him? I mean he can't run block in short yardage situations and after 2 seconds his pass blocking is suspect...

Pugh/Richburg could be the reincarnation of Baas/Schwartz...

I have no idea where you start...after 7 seasons we do not have one building block in this OL....and when you hear names like Wheeler and Bisnowaty, you just have to shake your head and say, "here we go again."
RE: Put me in the let them walk camp  
Kyle in NY : 11/14/2017 10:12 am : link
In comment 13691609 JonC said:
Quote:
Both are frequently unavailable, both are not remotely worth $10M per.

As another poster said, the desperate mentality got us stuck with Beatty, whom was a similar profile of NFL player.

It's going to be a huge challenge for this regime to rebuild the OL quickly.


Good point on Beatty. Situation feels similar.

Richburg's lack of ability to get movement in the run game has been a hindrance to the offense and these concussion issues are worrisome.

Pugh has performed admirably and has been a good soldier moving all around the line. But durability remains a concern and he's been good but not great.

With some big money deals on the horizon for actual elite players at their position like Odell and Collins (I'm still a believer despite a tough season), tough decisions will need to be made.

Seems counter-intuitive to rebuild the OL by letting maybe your two best guys go. But can't pay good players elite money. Otherwise you end up with the mess we have a defensive end.
RE: Put me in the let them walk camp  
BrettNYG10 : 11/14/2017 10:15 am : link
In comment 13691609 JonC said:
Quote:
Both are frequently unavailable, both are not remotely worth $10M per.

As another poster said, the desperate mentality got us stuck with Beatty, whom was a similar profile of NFL player.

It's going to be a huge challenge for this regime to rebuild the OL quickly.
...

This regime? :(
Important detail WIDELY overlooked in the posts above  
rich in DC : 11/14/2017 10:27 am : link
There will almost certainly be a new coach, new staff and new GM next season.

As a result, there will likely be a significant change in what offense the team runs. In today's game, the offensive scheme has as much to do with the offensive line play as the skill level.

It is important to note that not every OL fits every scheme. Flowers probably can start in most systems, but might not be a LT in some of them. Pugh, Jones and others have athletic limitations that might not mesh with a new system. Thus, we are VERY much putting the cart before the horse if you are trying to decide who returns on the OL bases solely on FA or who is injured or not.

Remember as well that if the Giants bring in an experienced head coach who brings in an experienced staff, they are likely to have relationships with players around the league and familiarity with the new offensive scheme that will favor certain OL over others.

Anyone claiming that they what next year's needs on the OL are or who is a "must sign" is fooling themselves until the new coach and staff is brought in and we know what scheme will be run.
Doomster: I don't mean to suggest they build around Wheeler/Bisnowaty.  
Big Blue Blogger : 11/14/2017 10:34 am : link
The first step in the rebuild, though, is to assess what they have. Richburg and Pugh are big decisions. So is Flowers's Year Five option. Whether to pursue Fluker and tender Jones are also significant questions. Then, way down the significance scale, are end-of-the-bench guys like Wheeler and Bisnowaty. Any good SWOT analysis includes all the relevant assets, even those with near-zero value.
not much to add here  
Banks : 11/14/2017 11:02 am : link
I'm in the camp that says make an offer to Pugh, but don't overpay. If he walks we are worse in the short term, but long term it should work out. This reminds me of the Beatty situation a couple years ago. He wasn't all that great and coming off a meh year, but given a limited FA pool and hoping he'd improve, he got paid big. I wouldn't want to see a repeat of that, particularly given that we are in rebuild mode.
my memory is getting fuzzy and misspoke  
Banks : 11/14/2017 11:09 am : link
I think Beatty finally had a good year before his big deal and then fell back off the cliff. Either way, my point was we paid quite a bit for a guy that didn't show much save one year and probably shouldn't do that with Pugh. Richburg has been a massive disappointment after so much promise. I'd just let him walk
No to Richberg  
Bluesbreaker : 11/14/2017 11:15 am : link
he is not a top five center and Jones is a backup problem with Pugh is health otherwise he is our best lineman .
Flowers is having a decent season . I doubt we are gonna
take Nelson that high even though he is the best lineman in the draft . Were most likely taking a QB although I would rather gamble on Webb and take Barkley .
If Reese is at the helm we will stay put I hope he is gone
and get a GM that isn't afraid to make some deals on guy
that have value to get more picks in the draft .
the ideal line next year  
hitdog42 : 11/14/2017 11:21 am : link
is a combo of flowers, jones, pugh, fluker, and a stud... that stud either comes at the top of the draft or via free agency... and given the versatility of Pugh... that stud can be a guard or a tackle.

if you get a new/good/less stubborn coach out there... with that group, i think the offense will be absolutely fine.
the 2nd WR spot will also be an area of focus but that isnt the topic of this thread
RE: Important detail WIDELY overlooked in the posts above  
BigBlueinChicago : 11/14/2017 11:23 am : link
In comment 13691779 rich in DC said:
Quote:
There will almost certainly be a new coach, new staff and new GM next season.

As a result, there will likely be a significant change in what offense the team runs. In today's game, the offensive scheme has as much to do with the offensive line play as the skill level.

It is important to note that not every OL fits every scheme. Flowers probably can start in most systems, but might not be a LT in some of them. Pugh, Jones and others have athletic limitations that might not mesh with a new system. Thus, we are VERY much putting the cart before the horse if you are trying to decide who returns on the OL bases solely on FA or who is injured or not.

Remember as well that if the Giants bring in an experienced head coach who brings in an experienced staff, they are likely to have relationships with players around the league and familiarity with the new offensive scheme that will favor certain OL over others.

Anyone claiming that they what next year's needs on the OL are or who is a "must sign" is fooling themselves until the new coach and staff is brought in and we know what scheme will be run.


+1

This is why any decision on ANY player has to be put on hold until we know what is going to happen after December 31.
RE: Put me in the let them walk camp  
Racer : 11/14/2017 12:11 pm : link
In comment 13691609 JonC said:
Quote:

As another poster said, the desperate mentality got us stuck with Beatty, whom was a similar profile of NFL player.


Actually, this is one of my favorite Reese topics. Somebody mentioned within the last couple of weeks that he's been historically a little jumpy when it comes to decision making, or words to that effect. I always thought he wanted certainty at LT in the face of the new CBA (and the resulting horde of FAs) and penned Beatty early rather than let the market play itself out, and got lousy value as a result.

I don't think it was desparation, I think it was not having the balls to ante up at the big boys table. In particular would like to hear YOUR opinion on how that situation played out, Sir.
RE: RE: Put me in the let them walk camp  
JonC : 11/14/2017 12:30 pm : link
In comment 13691965 Racer said:
Quote:
In comment 13691609 JonC said:


Quote:



As another poster said, the desperate mentality got us stuck with Beatty, whom was a similar profile of NFL player.




Actually, this is one of my favorite Reese topics. Somebody mentioned within the last couple of weeks that he's been historically a little jumpy when it comes to decision making, or words to that effect. I always thought he wanted certainty at LT in the face of the new CBA (and the resulting horde of FAs) and penned Beatty early rather than let the market play itself out, and got lousy value as a result.

I don't think it was desparation, I think it was not having the balls to ante up at the big boys table. In particular would like to hear YOUR opinion on how that situation played out, Sir.


I think it was overrating his own draft pick, which allowed him to go the path of least resistance.
+2 Chicago  
idiotsavant : 11/14/2017 12:57 pm : link
And add the new GM to that as a prerequisite. A OL centric one.
RE: RE: RE: Put me in the let them walk camp  
Racer : 11/14/2017 1:09 pm : link
In comment 13691986 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 13691609 JonC said:

Quote:

I think it was overrating his own draft pick, which allowed him to go the path of least resistance.


Nothing new there. This despite the fact he was known to the outside world as 'a dancer' with 'no punch'. Thanks.
The Will Beatty contract has been beaten to death on this board.  
Big Blue Blogger : 11/14/2017 1:19 pm : link
If he had continued to play at his 2012 level, or even avoided the off-season 2015 injury and played a couple more years at his 2014 level, that contract would have been a non-issue. He was awful in 2013. So were a lot of Giants. That team turned the ball over 44 times.
I'd keep Flowers, Pugh, and one of RB/Jones  
PatersonPlank : 11/14/2017 1:42 pm : link
The rest can go if they want, or stay for a contract that is good for the team.
cubed  
JonC : 11/14/2017 1:43 pm : link
It wasn't the average-level contract value so much as quickly doubling down on Beatty that I disliked. He didn't make much sense drafted where he was, but he definitely fit the profile of what they looked for.
RE: The Will Beatty contract has been beaten to death on this board.  
Racer : 11/14/2017 2:32 pm : link
In comment 13692045 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:


Maybe, but I don't recall commentary about timing of that FA season and JR for some reason 'doubling down' as JonC puts it before the market had even gotten momentum.

BBI discussion volume isn't always proportional to discussion value. That goes for posters and topics both.
RE: RE: Has Pugh Played an Entire Season?  
Diver_Down : 11/15/2017 9:08 am : link
In comment 13691191 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 13691158 Samiam said:


Quote:


Seems to me heís missed a few games every year since heís been here, any truth to that?



He played 16 games his rookie year. Every year since, he has missed multiple games. So far this year, he has only missed 1 full game. His sore back started going into the bye. He missed the 2nd half yesterday, and I won't be surprised if he misses this week.


As expected, Pugh will be missing more games.
Pugh Keeping His Streak Going - ( New Window )
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