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To the crowd that says NO to re-signing Pugh/Richburg

est1986 : 11/13/2017 6:20 pm
Fluker and Jones are also free agents. John Jerry is signed up, but he should not be a starter entering next season. So other than Flowers who you guys either don't want back at LT or don't want back at all... Please tell us what OL we will have next season... And then tell us how that will be better than this year's group...
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Iím not sure why  
ajr2456 : 11/13/2017 6:22 pm : link
Needing offensive lineman means me should resign players who are always hurt to big money contracts
next year won't be better  
annexOPR : 11/13/2017 6:23 pm : link
but there's also no point in paying these inconsistent injury prone pieces of shit either ..

it's time to blow this roster up.

Vernon, Snacks, Collins, Shepard, Odell, Engram ... everyone else can go.
Itís not gonna get fixed in one offseason  
The_Boss : 11/13/2017 6:27 pm : link
But Iíd rather go in any direction that doesnít include either of these guys. Weíve fielded a shitty OL with them for years now, we can field a shitty line without them. Plus, I would hope the next regime evaluates talent along the OL much better than this incompetent group.
RE: next year won't be better  
section125 : 11/13/2017 6:32 pm : link
In comment 13690881 annexOPR said:
Quote:
but there's also no point in paying these inconsistent injury prone pieces of shit either ..



Pretty cunty attitude. None are POS...if it is determined they are too often injured to be re-signed, so be it. No need for name calling. Phil Simms was constantly injured early in his career, but over came it.
I have felt  
TrueBlue56 : 11/13/2017 6:35 pm : link
That you build the pieces. Flowers is here, so you get a free agent or 2. Preferably a veteran like a jahri Evans and you scout offensive line heavily and hopefully you can find a plug in player.

When Coughlin came on in 2004 our oline was a mess. He brought in a bunch of offensive linemen via free agency and we drafted Snee. This is the formula.

1 or 2 pieces will begin the process. Rome wasn't built in a year and the offensive line will not be a quick fix.
Ok I get the injury thing but..  
est1986 : 11/13/2017 6:35 pm : link
What OL would you have out there next year? Do you not have any idea of who you would want to bring in for a look? Right now we have Flowers, Jerry, Bisnowaty and Wheeler for next season LOL wtf are we going to do if we don't sign Pugh and/or Richburg?
RE: Ok I get the injury thing but..  
The_Boss : 11/13/2017 6:37 pm : link
In comment 13690900 est1986 said:
Quote:
What OL would you have out there next year? Do you not have any idea of who you would want to bring in for a look? Right now we have Flowers, Jerry, Bisnowaty and Wheeler for next season LOL wtf are we going to do if we don't sign Pugh and/or Richburg?


The new HC and GM will figure it out. Iím almost 100% confident we wonít field an OL without a LG and C.
So those that don't want Pugh and Richburg back  
est1986 : 11/13/2017 6:38 pm : link
Are already willing to submit that our OL is going to suck next year too? I'm not asking how to we get an all pro OL together I'm simply saying if we don't resign our top two OL then what is the OL we field next season going to look like and how will it not be worse off?
RE: So those that don't want Pugh and Richburg back  
The_Boss : 11/13/2017 6:43 pm : link
In comment 13690908 est1986 said:
Quote:
Are already willing to submit that our OL is going to suck next year too? I'm not asking how to we get an all pro OL together I'm simply saying if we don't resign our top two OL then what is the OL we field next season going to look like and how will it not be worse off?


Bret Jones is, at the very least, serviceable. You can get through a year with him as your starter until you find a long term viable solution. And who is to say the next GM wonít actually hit on an OG in the draft? I know itís a foreign thought given the incompetence of Reese and Co, but maybe it actually happens?
RE: So those that don't want Pugh and Richburg back  
lecky : 11/13/2017 6:44 pm : link
In comment 13690908 est1986 said:
Quote:
Are already willing to submit that our OL is going to suck next year too? I'm not asking how to we get an all pro OL together I'm simply saying if we don't resign our top two OL then what is the OL we field next season going to look like and how will it not be worse off?


Not so sure it is the players that are the problem and more the scheme. New England started 3 rookie O Lineman last year the first game and won a super bowl. The play calling on this team has sucked for the past 4 years and that coincides with Odell Beckham. Which probably explains why when he is not on the field the Giants do not score. A good O Line coach and a good offensive coordinator with the help of an NFL viable QB, which Eli may or may not be will improve any line they put out there.
The players suck  
Fish : 11/13/2017 6:51 pm : link
And the scheme sucks.

Letís talk about scheme - you run the ball. Establish the run, let your linemen gain confidence. Make the other team stop you. Then when they do, you throw up top to Odell and crew. Instead we threw the ball more and more with or without Odell on field. Oline never learned how to pass block because they either suck or donít get it.

Example. Against cowboys opening night, Sean Lee knew our game plan better than we did. So why not load up with 2 TE and FB and smash mouth. Oh right Perkins is trash. But that shouldíve been the gameplan. Scheme and players suck.
this line sucks with them  
annexOPR : 11/13/2017 7:07 pm : link
no point in overpaying just so we can have some recognizable names not getting the job done
I know what Iím about  
King Quis : 11/13/2017 7:19 pm : link
To say is blasphemy .... but I think we should trade Eli Manning before the start of season the benefits are:

- will only count 6 mil per year on the next 2 season we would save 16 mil to go towards the new OL.

- with the 9 mil plus that we save from not resigning Pugh / Richburg weíd have a min of 26 mill of cap space with arguably 2 of the first 33-34 pics in the draft

- bring fluker back at a similar deal, spread the 26 plus mil over three OL positions and draft one in the 2nd rd.

- get a QB to battle w/ Webb for the Keys to the Franchise
That's the same mentality  
Sarcastic Sam : 11/13/2017 7:23 pm : link
that had us give $38 million to Will Beatty.

Pass. HARD.
The masses don't want to sign anyone that has ever been injured  
djm : 11/13/2017 7:25 pm : link
And damn the gm that signs any player that ends up getting hurt.

Pugh is a very good lineman. Richburg seems to have regressed but he's going to start somewhere and likely ends up as a solid to good player when all is said n done.
Richburg out for the year with a concussion  
Breeze_94 : 11/13/2017 7:25 pm : link
is definitely concerning for long-term health reasons. On a side note, it may decrease his value. If the Giants can sign him to a good deal, I would be all aboard. He is still young and has top 5 center potential IMO.

Also: it is odd that he suffered a severe concussion. He is one of the few guys on the team wearing one of those new VICIS helmets that are supposed to have a flexible outer shell to protect against concussions.
Let Weston walk.  
Diver_Down : 11/13/2017 7:39 pm : link
Jones is a RFA. Because he was not drafted, we can't offer the original round tender. And he won't be tendered at a 1st round or 2nd round. We will likely settle for a low-level tender with right of first refusal. I actually think Jones has done better than Richburg. Jones isn't great, but he doesn't get shoved back as nearly as often than Richburg. It wouldn't be terrible if we actually work out a 2-3 year deal with him.

Flowers is under contract. Him and Wheeler need to compete for LT. Hopefully, Wheeler is up to the task.

Guards: Ideally, Jerry doesn't play. Has Fluker reestablished his value? I don't see anyone clamoring to sign him. Perhaps a short-term incentive laden contract might persuade him. A few UFA guards that are in their late 20's and coming from a team that has proven to run the ball in no particular order. Bare minimum qualifications, but that is where we are. 1. Josh Kline (28) Titans, 2. Senio Kelemete (27) Saints, 3. Chris Hubbard (26) Pitt, 4. Jonathan Cooper (27) Dallas, 5. Andrew Norwell (26) Car
Jones might be the second  
Carl in CT : 11/13/2017 7:40 pm : link
Best center in the NFC. He has been that good. Pugh is overrated.
The reason why I say  
King Quis : 11/13/2017 7:41 pm : link
Make the move with Eli is simple. I donít trust our ability to resign OBJ / Collins and supply an above average line before Eli would turn 40... I just donít see this being a quick fix guys.
Jones  
Marty866b : 11/13/2017 7:49 pm : link
Has been a very pleasant surprise. No way the Giants even offer Richburg a contract and I would very surprised if they signed Pugh. Guy just can't stay on the field. So we will field and new offensive line next season. Can't be any worse then what we have seen this year.
Jones at Center  
Rjanyg : 11/13/2017 7:52 pm : link
Fluker at RG. Maybe bring back Pugh but it will cost a good chunk of money. If Pugh comes back he can play RT or LG. Flowers will play one OT position depending on who NYG drafts. I would love Nelson from ND to play LG. A line of Flower, Nelson, Jones, Fluker, Pugh is a good line. Bisnowaty, Wheeler and Hart all under contract with an additional Center/Guard added as well.
Pugh  
Fish : 11/13/2017 7:54 pm : link
Goes to philly for less money. Thatís my bet.
Jones at Center  
Rjanyg : 11/13/2017 7:54 pm : link
Fluker at RG. Maybe bring back Pugh but it will cost a good chunk of money. If Pugh comes back he can play RT or LG. Flowers will play one OT position depending on who NYG drafts. I would love Nelson from ND to play LG. A line of Flower, Nelson, Jones, Fluker, Pugh is a good line. Bisnowaty, Wheeler and Hart all under contract with an additional Center/Guard added as well.
Pugh has missed time with concussions too  
GeorgeAdams33 : 11/13/2017 7:55 pm : link
These guys are not what we want moving forward. Flowers is improving. Fluker is improving. Jones is playing better than expected. I would find a left guard (Quentin Nelson-Notre Dame in trade up from our 2nd round slot) and a RT (probably a FA) and keep building with another C prospect (Billy Smith-Ohio St.) in the 3rd round. Our top pick will likely be a QB or RB-Saquon Barkley.
they are not siamese twins  
idiotsavant : 11/13/2017 7:58 pm : link
probably even richburg knows -he- is gone.

Expect at least two, maybe three, new, high value line starters, a line centric GM, a line centric HC, a new OC and a new Line coach.

Hopefully a group with some success -together- to a certain extent.
RE: Pugh  
Diver_Down : 11/13/2017 7:59 pm : link
In comment 13691060 Fish said:
Quote:
Goes to philly for less money. Thatís my bet.


I would hope so. At least we will be able to get pressure on Wentz twice a year.
Trade down  
WillVAB : 11/13/2017 7:59 pm : link
Take Quenton Nelson (OG) and Orlando Brown (OT). Sign Swanson or Schewenke as your Center.

Flowers-Nelson-Swanson-Jerry-Brown

Another option would be to take Nelson after a trade down then take another guard in the 2nd or 3rd and hope Wheeler can hold down RT. Use the other 1st and other 2nd on a pass rusher and true LB.

Itís not that tough to fix if the Giants commit to it.
Giants will do their best  
Rory : 11/13/2017 8:07 pm : link
To resign one of the 2.

Fans need to wake up and understand that NCAA offensive lineman are not game ready coming out of college anymore. Look around the league and the last top 10 players coming out of college have all been slow or have outright busted

Vets who know the game and have chemistry are likelier to build a solid line around However, you have to pay for that chemistry.
Ask the Vikings  
Stan in LA : 11/13/2017 8:28 pm : link
Who changed all 5 position from last year and now are 7-2.
Has Pugh Played an Entire Season?  
Samiam : 11/13/2017 8:33 pm : link
Seems to me heís missed a few games every year since heís been here, any truth to that?
RE: Pugh has missed time with concussions too  
Rjanyg : 11/13/2017 8:33 pm : link
In comment 13691062 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
These guys are not what we want moving forward. Flowers is improving. Fluker is improving. Jones is playing better than expected. I would find a left guard (Quentin Nelson-Notre Dame in trade up from our 2nd round slot) and a RT (probably a FA) and keep building with another C prospect (Billy Smith-Ohio St.) in the 3rd round. Our top pick will likely be a QB or RB-Saquon Barkley.


Agreed.
RE: Giants will do their best  
WillVAB : 11/13/2017 8:36 pm : link
In comment 13691086 Rory said:
Quote:
To resign one of the 2.

Fans need to wake up and understand that NCAA offensive lineman are not game ready coming out of college anymore. Look around the league and the last top 10 players coming out of college have all been slow or have outright busted

Vets who know the game and have chemistry are likelier to build a solid line around However, you have to pay for that chemistry.


Where are you getting these facts from? Cam Robinson and Ryan Ramcyzk prove exactly the opposite.
.  
idiotsavant : 11/13/2017 8:38 pm : link
Pugh/Nelson/Jones\Gabe Jackson\Flowers

(new coach, oc, ol coach and system, +1 RB)
The  
AcidTest : 11/13/2017 8:39 pm : link
quickest way to ruin your cap is to overpay out of desperation.
The Saints O Line is great.  
Rjanyg : 11/13/2017 8:40 pm : link
Armstead at LT, Peat LG, Warford RG, Ramchyck RT

They really built an excellent OL. I think you guys saw they score 6 rushing TD's in Buffalo.
RE: Has Pugh Played an Entire Season?  
Diver_Down : 11/13/2017 8:45 pm : link
In comment 13691158 Samiam said:
Quote:
Seems to me heís missed a few games every year since heís been here, any truth to that?


He played 16 games his rookie year. Every year since, he has missed multiple games. So far this year, he has only missed 1 full game. His sore back started going into the bye. He missed the 2nd half yesterday, and I won't be surprised if he misses this week.
RE: The  
King Quis : 11/13/2017 8:45 pm : link
In comment 13691176 AcidTest said:
Quote:
quickest way to ruin your cap is to overpay out of desperation.





This !!!!
and probably draft another quality and hefty OG/C  
idiotsavant : 11/13/2017 8:46 pm : link
prospect high as well.
RE: Ask the Vikings  
jeffusedtobeonwebtv : 11/13/2017 9:03 pm : link
In comment 13691141 Stan in LA said:
Quote:
Who changed all 5 position from last year and now are 7-2.


Not only did they change their entire O-line, but they have that record playing Case Keenum, their 3rd string quarterback.

But they also do not have McAdoo as their coach! Or Reese as their GM!
It won't happen  
RetroJint : 11/13/2017 9:09 pm : link
because Reese went rent-a-line this season , but if these guys came back intact next season, they would mesh into a good unit. Pugh is gone . Westburg is probably gone. Fluker might find a taker. So it will start all over next year.
You can't overpay mediocrity or unavailability  
SLIM_ : 11/13/2017 9:19 pm : link
LT - Flowers. Worst case is he is at RT.

LG - Jerry. I'll say it again for the nth time. If he is your 5th best lineman, your line might be pretty good. If he is 4th, you still could be average.

C - Jones. Outside of Richburg being a number 2 pick, I haven't seen anything in about 2 years that shows Jones is a downgrade to Richburg. It's possible, he comes back but it would be for significantly less than originally thought.

RG - Fluker. If we can sign him for a similar deal that Jerry got this year, I would consider it.

RT - FA. At minimum an average one.

Draft - At least one 1st/2nd day pick. If you can get a Tackle early great, you may go with an interior player within the 1st 4 rounds also (with an eye on ultimately replacing Jerry/Jones.)

RE: RE: Giants will do their best  
Rory : 11/13/2017 9:33 pm : link
In comment 13691167 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 13691086 Rory said:


Quote:


To resign one of the 2.

Fans need to wake up and understand that NCAA offensive lineman are not game ready coming out of college anymore. Look around the league and the last top 10 players coming out of college have all been slow or have outright busted

Vets who know the game and have chemistry are likelier to build a solid line around However, you have to pay for that chemistry.



Where are you getting these facts from? Cam Robinson and Ryan Ramcyzk prove exactly the opposite.


Look who those guys are playing next too, those are elite lines.

Eric Fisher, Luke Joeckel, Jake Long, Greg Robinson prove my point.
RE: I know what Iím about  
MBavaro : 11/13/2017 9:36 pm : link
In comment 13690993 King Quis said:
Quote:
To say is blasphemy .... but I think we should trade Eli Manning before the start of season the benefits are:

- will only count 6 mil per year on the next 2 season we would save 16 mil to go towards the new OL.

- with the 9 mil plus that we save from not resigning Pugh / Richburg weíd have a min of 26 mill of cap space with arguably 2 of the first 33-34 pics in the draft

- bring fluker back at a similar deal, spread the 26 plus mil over three OL positions and draft one in the 2nd rd.

- get a QB to battle w/ Webb for the Keys to the Franchise


You do know that Eli has a.........................

A fuck it, nevermind......
It's a good question...  
Dan in the Springs : 11/13/2017 11:19 pm : link
because we have very few guys under contract next season, and we all want upgrades at every position as well.

Just because we don't have anyone under contract doesn't mean that we have to sign our own FA. The problems with Pugh/Richburg are health related as much as anything else. Additionally there could be problems with asking price.

If the asking price is right for each of them, I'm okay with bringing them back to compete for jobs. Unfortunately you can't really count on guys who are injured to be regular players for you, so we better have a strong plan A. Or these guys better be priced to be plan B's.

We also have a dire situation at LB if you look at who is under contract next year. The GM has its work cut out for them, that's for sure.
Pugh  
Dragon : 11/14/2017 12:49 am : link
Not sure at this time if the back is a real problem but he picked a bad time to develop a major concern. Iíll admit he could be the best RT presently on the team plus he brings a great deal of versatility but he is not worth more than 5-7 million for four years in a front loaded deal.

Our OL has two guys with a real future Flowers and Jones the Rest all come with many skills, injury and upside questions. Play these guys let them gain something from this season and judge them for game time experience not practice or PS. Check the league PS and waiver wires we donít have anyone at this time who canít be easily replaced on our OL. I donít buy the they need to work together they need to do their job then help if they can. We have some young kids now is the time to get them on the field see what you really have not what you think you have.
RE: Pugh  
Diver_Down : 11/14/2017 7:08 am : link
In comment 13691514 Dragon said:
Quote:
Not sure at this time if the back is a real problem but he picked a bad time to develop a major concern. Iíll admit he could be the best RT presently on the team plus he brings a great deal of versatility but he is not worth more than 5-7 million for four years in a front loaded deal.

Our OL has two guys with a real future Flowers and Jones the Rest all come with many skills, injury and upside questions. Play these guys let them gain something from this season and judge them for game time experience not practice or PS. Check the league PS and waiver wires we donít have anyone at this time who canít be easily replaced on our OL. I donít buy the they need to work together they need to do their job then help if they can. We have some young kids now is the time to get them on the field see what you really have not what you think you have.


Dragon has a valid point. The season is over except for evaluation purposes. We should be poaching other team's practice squads and get a good look for the remaining practice/game time. If they absolutely suck, then you release them and find another. Keep turning over the rocks and we are bound to find some talent. That should go for our LB situation. Every Tuesday should come with announcements of new signings. What is the downside? We are going to lose another game?
sorry  
gidiefor : Mod : 11/14/2017 7:21 am : link
I'm not paying them $10 million each to play in three or four games next year
salary cap forces you to cut bait on injury prone types. I also don't  
Victor in CT : 11/14/2017 8:19 am : link
think either of them are very good besidies being injury prone, so I wouldn't commit long term big $$.

As for scheme, wasn't the great Solari supposed to fix the mess that Flaherty supposedly left behind? That's what lots of people said here. Worked out well.
I guess Flats got his skills back at JAX, where they can actually run the ball and protect their QB
Put me in the let them walk camp  
JonC : 11/14/2017 8:27 am : link
Both are frequently unavailable, both are not remotely worth $10M per.

As another poster said, the desperate mentality got us stuck with Beatty, whom was a similar profile of NFL player.

It's going to be a huge challenge for this regime to rebuild the OL quickly.

RE: sorry  
njm : 11/14/2017 8:31 am : link
In comment 13691549 gidiefor said:
Quote:
I'm not paying them $10 million each to play in three or four games next year


Question is, will anyone else? The assumption in this thread seems to be that their injuries won't affect their market value. I'd suggest waiting to see what the market truly is. If they can be signed at a "discount" and you can add some young OL talent for the future in the draft it could be a plan.
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