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NFT: 11/14 Knicks Chat. The Cleveland Aftermath

LawrenceTaylor56 : 11/14/2017 6:35 am
Last nights loss was like riding your favorite ride at the amusement park, only to then have the ride end by having your nuts smashed into a pole. 23 point lead.. damn.

Couple Notes/Opinions:

Two things I believe were the biggest factors in the loss. KP having an off-night (including 2 crunch free throws), and Hornaceks lack of adjustments and coaching. I don't know why Kanter wasn't getting much burn in the 4th, and why Ntilkina wasn't in over Sweaty Morpheus earlier.

-Frank was eating on defense. 6 steals. Offensively, I'd like to see him look to shoot more. I don't know if it's lack of confidence in his shot, but he can shoot.

-Kanter. Another great game. What's not to love about this guy? Stuck up for our rookie. Would love to keep this guy on our team. Had a couple nice quotes.
Quote:
“You ain’t coming to my house and playing that water bottle flip game again,” Kanter said, referring to what James and other Cavs did during their blowout victory at the Garden last season. “I don’t care who you are. What do you call yourself, King, Queen, Princess, whatever you are. We’re going to fight. Nobody out there is going to punk us.”


-Hardaway JR had another nice game. 28 pts, 10 Rebounds, 5 assists. I'm sure some will find a play or two in the game to keep with their agenda of hating him.

-Love KP, but he needs to be careful going forward with his theatrics to flopping. I mentioned in the game thread if maybe his sleeve was effecting him a little bit? Maybe. But he was shut down by LeBron when guarded.

All in all, a great game for the young squad. They made the Cavs actually give a shit in November. It took Kyle Korver to go immortal, LeBron to play defense, a less than stellar game from KP for them to win this game. Sitting at 7-6 after 13 games. I'll take it. Onto the Jazz this Wednesday.
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Embiid turns the ball over a LOT, though  
Greg from LI : 11/14/2017 12:49 pm : link
Almost 5 a game is a ton for a guy who isn't a ballhandler. Giannis is at 3.3, for example, and he plays a lot of point forward.
IDK why I'm surprised, but the amount of media members  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 11/14/2017 1:01 pm : link
willing to fawn over Lebron even when it's crystal clear he's being a jackass is crazy.

LeBron being a jackass is actually mental chess or leadership... it's not simply that he's being a jackass. There has to be some safe, rational area for criticism beyond drunken Pete Vescey-ville.
RE: Embiid turns the ball over a LOT, though  
DanMetroMan : 11/14/2017 1:04 pm : link
In comment 13692007 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Almost 5 a game is a ton for a guy who isn't a ballhandler. Giannis is at 3.3, for example, and he plays a lot of point forward.


In fairness Embiid DOES handle the ball more than your standard big. I'd say his closest comp would be Cousins who himself is averaging 5.4 turnovers per game so far this year (3.5 for his career but closer to 4 since he became a star). Only question with Embiid is health otherwise he's a superstar with a chance top 3 player.
The worst part about blowing that game last night  
nygiants16 : 11/14/2017 1:12 pm : link
is having to listen to espn sucking off lebron acting like he carried the cavs by hinself...

stephen a basically said frabk should respect lebron and that lebron did nothing wrong, how can any self claimed knick fan not be happy with the team standing up to
lebron?

and now lebron continues to troll on twitter about how he owns madison square garden and the knicks, yup completely ignorw the fact knicks went into cleveland and whooped the cavs...

god i hate lebron and the cavs, i wojld love to play them in the playoffs and knock them out
Westchester  
DanMetroMan : 11/14/2017 1:20 pm : link
today

Hayes 20 and 5, 3 steals 8-12, 3/4 from 3 (Not sure he's an NBA talent but has played well in the G)

The Green Kornet with 24 and 5, 9-18, 5-12 from 3

Burke 24 and 4 8-18
Adam  
DanMetroMan : 11/14/2017 1:22 pm : link
Silver you bald genius, Knicks vs. Lakers feud coming next season.
nygiants16  
PaulBlakeTSU : 11/14/2017 1:22 pm : link
Screamin A Smith is never worth paying attention to.
RE: RE: LeBron  
nygiants16 : 11/14/2017 1:23 pm : link
In comment 13691835 mfsd said:
Quote:
In comment 13691821 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


Posted on Instagram how he’s the king of ny. Dudes such a cornball



He’s a great basketball player. Who often acts like a bitch.


what a disrespectful pjece of shit...

kanter responded "new york already has a king and his is kristaps porzingis"
RE: RE: LeBron  
WideRight : 11/14/2017 1:37 pm : link
In comment 13691835 mfsd said:
Quote:
In comment 13691821 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


Posted on Instagram how he’s the king of ny. Dudes such a cornball



He’s a great basketball player. Who often acts like a bitch.



He's a bitch who happen to be good at basketball
Props  
DanMetroMan : 11/14/2017 1:39 pm : link
to Lebron. He's a wrestling fan and he's playing the heel perfectly.
RE: Props  
nygiants16 : 11/14/2017 1:43 pm : link
In comment 13692070 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
to Lebron. He's a wrestling fan and he's playing the heel perfectly.


i thought he said he didnt want to be the bad guy anynore?
RE: RE: Props  
DanMetroMan : 11/14/2017 1:48 pm : link
In comment 13692079 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13692070 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


to Lebron. He's a wrestling fan and he's playing the heel perfectly.



i thought he said he didnt want to be the bad guy anynore?


And yet he's posting gifs of him as the joker as MSG explodes. He's having fun. I understand why Knicks fans are going nutty but on his end he's likely loving this. It's classic heel play for a wrestler.
RE: I will add  
PhiPsi125 : 11/14/2017 1:59 pm : link
In comment 13691936 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
that as much as I enjoyed watching the Knicks last night, I don't like this habit of Porzingis flopping to sell fouls. Was he getting fouled? Perhaps, but plays down low get physical both ways. And Porzingis is just faling to the ground to get calls. I think it's cheap.


They were playing him VERY physical last night. Arms draped all over him, grabbing his jersey, getting dragged to the ground. I’m sure some of it was exaggerated but he doesn’t put on a show about it lik Lebron and other players. Lebron is an all time great flopper. He’s such a joke.
RE: RE: RE: Props  
nygiants16 : 11/14/2017 1:59 pm : link
In comment 13692085 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
In comment 13692079 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


In comment 13692070 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


to Lebron. He's a wrestling fan and he's playing the heel perfectly.



i thought he said he didnt want to be the bad guy anynore?



And yet he's posting gifs of him as the joker as MSG explodes. He's having fun. I understand why Knicks fans are going nutty but on his end he's likely loving this. It's classic heel play for a wrestler.


oh i get exactly what he ia doing
RE: as crazy as it may sound and it is very very early  
blueblood : 11/14/2017 2:19 pm : link
In comment 13691642 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
but are the knicks 1 piece away at small forward from competing in the east?

you have a potential defensive stalwart at point, thjr who is averaging 18 4 and 3, kp averaging 30 and kanter averaging a double-double...

is it crazy to think that?


Nope because thats exactly what I was thinking last night. Ive been looking an nbadraft all day to see who are the small forwards coming out this year
RE: The worst part about blowing that game last night  
Stu11 : 11/14/2017 2:20 pm : link
In comment 13692036 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
is having to listen to espn sucking off lebron acting like he carried the cavs by hinself...

stephen a basically said frabk should respect lebron and that lebron did nothing wrong, how can any self claimed knick fan not be happy with the team standing up to
lebron?

and now lebron continues to troll on twitter about how he owns madison square garden and the knicks, yup completely ignorw the fact knicks went into cleveland and whooped the cavs...

god i hate lebron and the cavs, i wojld love to play them in the playoffs and knock them out

I know listen the guy made some big plays down the stretch, but that game is not even close for him at the end if Korver and company don't go like 10 for 11 on 3's in the 4th
Miles Bridges fits the Knicks profile.  
bceagle05 : 11/14/2017 2:26 pm : link
He has that "New York grit" KP was talking about a few days ago. But that would be a pretty slow-footed frontcourt with Bridges, KP and Kanter/Willy. I'd like a better athlete who can penetrate a bit.
And by the way I am really coming around to keeping this core together  
Stu11 : 11/14/2017 2:29 pm : link
and building from it. Some guys on the periphery may come and go like Lee/O'Quinn/Noah and the vet pg's...but I can see building a winning team around the rest depending on KP and Frank's ceilings. While the Hardaway deal was surely no bargain, it won't be an albatross either. He can play, and there is still upside there. We'll see how this plays out the remainder of the season but taking a look at the East the Knicks should be in the mix for a playoff spot as long as the bottom doesn't fall out or injuries hit. So the dream of landing a franchise type guy at the top of the draft may be moot. Obviously thanks to Noah and that horrific contract adding through free agency will be tough, but fuck all those guys, they just laugh us off any way. We have a solid young core who wants to be here. Lets see how it works out.
Noah  
DanMetroMan : 11/14/2017 2:36 pm : link
and Baker seem like "lolKnicks" moves. At least Hardaway you see flashes of what they hope for. Noah and Baker...not so much.
RE: Miles Bridges fits the Knicks profile.  
Greg from LI : 11/14/2017 2:38 pm : link
In comment 13692127 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
He has that "New York grit" KP was talking about a few days ago. But that would be a pretty slow-footed frontcourt with Bridges, KP and Kanter/Willy. I'd like a better athlete who can penetrate a bit.


He likely ends up going higher than the Knicks pick, but Kevin Knox is a guy that fits the Knicks' needs.
I'm  
DanMetroMan : 11/14/2017 2:43 pm : link
not going to lose my shit if a strong defensive 5 is the pick. I don't see any scenario in which both Kanter and Willy are here long term and I think both would do well with a strong defensive partner. Obviously I would prefer a stud 3 but there are worse outcomes.
RE: Miles Bridges fits the Knicks profile.  
nygiants16 : 11/14/2017 2:45 pm : link
In comment 13692127 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
He has that "New York grit" KP was talking about a few days ago. But that would be a pretty slow-footed frontcourt with Bridges, KP and Kanter/Willy. I'd like a better athlete who can penetrate a bit.


i loved mjles bridges last year before he went back to school
Jarred Vanderbilt  
DanMetroMan : 11/14/2017 2:50 pm : link
is one to monitor. Could be very intriguing if he can improve his range, Troy Brown
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: SI  
ajr2456 : 11/14/2017 3:13 pm : link
In comment 13691926 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
In comment 13691863 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 13691848 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


In comment 13691834 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


In comment 13691820 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


19. New York Knicks KNICKS | MITCHELL ROBINSON, C | 19 YEARS OLD

Robinson will remain a bit of an enigma after leaving Western Kentucky to prepare for the draft on his own. He has the size, length and talent to be a first-round pick, but he’s far from a lock at this stage given everything that can happen between now and next spring, when he’ll be able to work out for teams. Most NBA scouts have only seen him in quick spurts and in All-Star settings, and his feel for the game leaves something to be desired, so it’s a little concerning that he won’t play competitively at all this season. Robinson could be a valuable shot-blocker and lob catcher around the basket, and should benefit from being part of a thinner draft class.


They have him passing on Musa, a kid I've been keeping my eyes on for a while. Another teen Euro, I think he'd be a sweet addition to Frank/KP (linked highlights below) Link - ( New Window )


I understand that most of these guys aren't here long term, but really, another center?



I think you go BPA when you have a team like the Knicks do. Willy and Kanter are both 1 way players as it is so if this kid is a defensive/athletic type he might be a nice add (not my first choice). As I said I'm digging Musa.



I haven’t seen much of Musa recently but didn’t he struggle to play off the ball?



Reportedly scouts were "blown away" how far his game has come over the past 2 months from pure scorer to a more well rounded game. Keep in mind he'll only be 19 in May aka assuming he comes over next season he'll be approx the same age Frank is this season for us. he's very, very young and already showing he can handle the pro game. On the EXTREME high end you are looking at a Manu type.


I'll have to go watch some more. What's your thoughts on Bonga?
RE: I didn't say he invented it  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/14/2017 3:19 pm : link
In comment 13691969 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
but he's making a habit of it this season and he keeps falling to the ground, and sometimes smirking after. It looks bad.


It's really hard to feel the same as you do about it knowing LeBron and so many other guys have made flopping around for whistles part of how they got to win championships.
Bonga  
DanMetroMan : 11/14/2017 3:23 pm : link
certainly sounds like another guy to keep our eye on. He might be an especially intriguing fit with Frank considering Bonga is a guy who can even run the offense as a point forward type. I think his shot will dictate how good he can be but KP/Bonga/Frank could be a truly dynamic defensive trio with that length. Hard to say with these teen euros, one year to the next and the development can change exponentially. I (like most people) am extremely high on Kevin Wilson so if he likes Bonga (or doesn't) I trust him to make that call.
The  
DanMetroMan : 11/14/2017 3:25 pm : link
NBA really should enforce anti-flopping more but because they don't it's hard to fault the players for doing it.
.  
DanMetroMan : 11/14/2017 4:46 pm : link
Andy Bailey‏Verified account
@AndrewDBailey
11m11 minutes ago
More
Top 20 in the NBA so far, according to the avg of their ranks in PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, WS, RPM & RPM Wins:

1-Harden
2-Curry
3-Giannis
4-LeBron
5-AD
6-Jokic
7-KD
8-Capela
9-Horford
10-Otto
11-Boogie
12-Drummond
13-Dame
14-Kyrie
15-Tyreke
16-Adams
17-Kemba
18-BobCov
19-PG
20-Pau
KP isn't one of the top 20 players right now?  
Greg from LI : 11/14/2017 4:56 pm : link
Geddafuckouttahere
RE: KP isn't one of the top 20 players right now?  
Giantology : 11/14/2017 5:01 pm : link
In comment 13692312 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Geddafuckouttahere


#1 in our hearts
600 year old Pay is better?  
Greg from LI : 11/14/2017 5:14 pm : link
Sure he is!
Who needs KP when you can have Tyreke Evans?  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 11/14/2017 5:16 pm : link
...
Pau  
Greg from LI : 11/14/2017 5:16 pm : link
Curse you autocorrect
RE: KP isn't one of the top 20 players right now?  
DanMetroMan : 11/14/2017 5:21 pm : link
In comment 13692312 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Geddafuckouttahere



He explained the results. If you have an issue with the stats he used that's fine but it's not like he interjected his opinion. I couldn't tell you WHY KP isn't top 20 but my guess is at least one of the stats he lags behind which pulled down his average. No biggy.
I  
DanMetroMan : 11/14/2017 5:27 pm : link
don't even particularly know how VORP works but KP "only" has a .4 VORP (not in the top 25) whereas the leader has a 1.6 (Harden) so that may have something to do with it. For what it's worth ESPN's new fangled stat has KP #7 in the NBA which I think is kind of silly as well because Curry is still better than KP by any reasonable measure. This guy has him #2, ESPN has him #9. I don't fully understand some of the NBA advanced numbers ie Capela is considered a God by the numbers.
Too right  
manh george : 11/14/2017 6:48 pm : link
Quote:
DanMetroMan

Hard to say with these teen euros, one year to the next and the development can change exponentially.


Which is one of the reasons why LeBron's anti-Jackson gobbledygook with a bank shot at Frank Ntilikina was so stupid.

1) Ok, Smith looks like a stud, and is a better overall player than Frank today.

2) LeBron has no idea how much Frank will improve, or how quickly. Neither do any of us. I KNOW he will be a great defender. I expect that he will be a very good shooter. I don't know how much more athletic he will get with US strength training techniques.

I know he is very long, has soft hands, and good vision, and already has quick enough hands to make some remarkable defensive plays for a skinny 19 year old.

Which one will be better in two years? No idea. I like our chances. I like Smith's chances, too.
In the end, people are always going to be biased towards the american  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/14/2017 8:54 pm : link
college player they feel like they can actually project.

The Knicks still drafted a 19 year old pass-first (8.3 assists per 36 minutes) Point Guard who is currently first in steals per 100 possessions and second in deflections per 36 minutes. Anyone in these threads would have signed up for this without question. They just didn't expect it from him.

He's already exceeded my expectations in that he doesn't look surprised by the step up in competition, he's already showed that late-game situations don't bother him and he is confident enough not to be intimidated by the biggest star in the sport trying to make him look bad. He needs to work on his offense, yes, and that's perfectly fine. He is what they needed, a guy that is more concerned with making the offense and players around him better.





Frank's defense is scary good.  
bceagle05 : 11/14/2017 9:00 pm : link
I loved that steal of Wade he had when he wasn't even guarding him - just used his Inspector Gadget arms to pluck it away while Wade was driving toward the paint.
C'mon now. We are Knicks fans here and want Frank to do well, but  
Jim in Hoboken : 11/14/2017 9:08 pm : link
if you ask other basketball fans whom they'd rather have, 99% would say Dennis Smith Jr. Go look at the highlights of the Mavs-Cavs game, and I feel confident in saying that Frank won't ever develop anything close to the type of prowess on offense that Smith has already shown, also at 19 years old.

Would you turn down Harden or Curry because they don't play defense and are ball hogs? Of course not. Except for Paul and Wall, which other celebrated PG's actually play defense? Most importantly, at the end of games, when opposing teams double Porzingis, can you give the ball to Frank and have him make a play for you? I don't know, maybe he will eventually be able to, but I already know Smith can.

If Smith's knee holds up, he's the better player. Let's be honest, we'd all be ecstatic if Smith was on the Knicks. LeBron is a douche, fuck him, but there is some truth to what he said.

Frank's defense has certainly impressed, but his offensive game is still so rudimentary. For our sake, let's hope all your projections for his offense come true down the line.
fair post Jim.  
Del Shofner : 11/14/2017 9:15 pm : link
.
I think Frank is perfect for this Knicks team  
moespree : 11/14/2017 9:17 pm : link
His play meshes well with KP. I can't say if Smith Jr. would. I actually have some doubts. I think Frank and KP can develop into a deadly pick and roll tandem.

And Frank is going to be an elite defender in this version of modern day NBA. There are going to be certain players who will be clueless what to do against that type of aggressive in your face defense.
Not everyone on a basketball court is going to be a 20 point scorer  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/14/2017 9:20 pm : link
or has to be. I don't know Smith's game. I know he makes a lot of highlights, but especially considering that the Knicks have had a transcendent scorer in his prime on this team very recently, I feel like it's a little funny that we might be putting too much weight on scoring and undervaluing the worth of a true PG, especially when the current NBA is incredibly guard-driven. They're so hard to find. Guys who can score aren't.
Good points Jim.  
bceagle05 : 11/14/2017 9:28 pm : link
Let's face it - ideally you want one of each in your backcourt, right? A scorer and a defensive stopper. Houston had that with Harden and Beverly, Golden State has it with Steph and Klay (obviously Klay is great offensively, too).

As it pertains to the Knicks, Smith Jr. and Hardaway Jr. would be excellent offensively and woeful defensively. Frank and Hardaway complement each other, but the Knicks will need to find a little more scoring if they want to become serious contenders. Timmy is fine for the time being, but we'll need to upgrade that spot or find a SF who can score the basketball.
why does frank have to be a gret offensive player  
nygiants16 : 11/14/2017 9:32 pm : link
to be better than smith? if he is an eljte defender and averaging 14 and 8 is that not a star player?

he changes the game on the defensive end and smith effects the offensive end they are 2 completely different players...

if smith goes put and drops 24 and has 5 assists, he roughly accounted for 34 points that game

frank has 10 points 7 assists and 6 steals, lets say 4 of them led to scores... that is 28 points he directly effected...

you see frank does not need to go out and score 20 points to effect a game, if smith scores 10 points did he effect the game?



I get that Frank is different, and on the Knicks it's certain  
Jim in Hoboken : 11/14/2017 9:33 pm : link
refreshing. Having a ball-dominant forward in Anthony is different than a ball-dominant PG who can drive and dish or create for others. Smith has shown he can do that off penetration. Having a penetrating PG who can score on his own and create for others would've done wonders for this offense. Defense is important, I fully realize that, but not when you are sacrificing offense for it. Can Frank develop a legitimate offense game befitting of a top echelon NBA PG? We don't know, you can project all you want, but it's wishful thinking at this point.

Listen, we are not a star-studded roster missing a glue piece. KP is the only real piece we have, I guarantee that most of us would've envisioned KP + DSJ being 2/3 of the Big Three had we drafted Smith Jr.

It is what it is, I am not here to bash Frank. I want him to do well. He surprised me by standing up to LeBron last night, that was awesome. But his offense has a long way to go, and you can't argue that.
Having to fill a need for a scoring wing is a MUCH easier thing  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/14/2017 9:34 pm : link
to have to do than having to fill a hole at PG. The last 15 years of Knicks basketball has literally been trying one combo guard after another because you simply can't get into draft position to get a real PG prospect.

Even though I think traditional position roles are essentially dead these days, they do lack that attacking wing player, and that would be something of a missing piece for this offense, but those guys actually do fall in the draft.
Jim  
BigBlueShock : 11/14/2017 9:35 pm : link
That part about Smiths knee holding up should be highlighted, not thrown in as some kind of far off conclusion. His knee injury is real and a major reason that he dropped in the draft. Maybe you're comfortable using a top 8 pick on a guy with major injury concerns, but I'm not. Maybe Smith overcomes those concerns but you can't blame the Knicks for passing.
and i am not saying frank doesnt have to get more agressive  
nygiants16 : 11/14/2017 9:35 pm : link
he still has a lot of work to do and needs to shoot the ball when he is open and stop being so passive
I pointed out about how I want Frank to be more aggressive  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 11/14/2017 10:53 pm : link
on offense. Also take note that Frank is the youngest guy in the league right now. He will develop his offense, and I think he will be a better all around player than Smith Jr.
I want Frank to be more aggressive, too.  
manh george : 11/14/2017 11:31 pm : link
However, at this point in his career, I would have been pretty surprised to see Frank crashing down the lane on a regular basis. The kid is as green as grass. Consider this:

Quote:
On October 15, 2015, Ntilikina logged his first EuroLeague minutes (with SIG Strasbourg), scoring one point in 12 minutes and 16 seconds of play against KK Crvena Zvezda. He saw the court in 32 contests during the 2015–16 Pro A season, scoring 1.3 points per game, and he was named the league's "Best Young Player"


That's right, his Euroleague career started exactly two years ago, and in the season that followed, he was averaging 1.3 points per game.

Consider the progression to a year later:

Quote:
He was spectacular in helping France's Under-18 national team win the 2016 FIBA Europe Under-18 Championship, scoring 31 points, including 7-for-10 from three-point range, in the championship game against the Under-18 Lithuanian team.[19] He averaged 15.2 points, 4.5 assists, 2.8 rebounds, and 2.2 steals a game in the tournament, draining 50 percent of his field goal attempts, including 58.6 percent of his shots from long distance,[20] en route to Most Valuable Player honors.


The kid is hundreds of miles from being a seasoned pro. I think he has a world of upside. He will also get bigger and stronger, starting at 6'5" 190 now. What if he were to grow another inch and add 20 pounds over a couple of years? He could be a monster.

Btw, good analysis of the Cleveland loss, linked. 1) Hornacek stayed with Enes too long when Cleveland went smallball. 2) Quick flare screens and space for Korver to get off his notoriously quick three-point shot devastated the Knicks in the fourth quarter, and it was a symptom of Hornacek’s resistance to playing his wing defenders, Lance Thomas and Courtney Lee, and trusting his team with Porzingis at center. Two big men together didn't work when the Cavaliers shooters got hot. Who was going to chase out to the arc? A. Neither.
Link - ( New Window )
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