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Webb gets the attention, but I want to see Wheeler

EddieNYG : 11/14/2017 10:57 am
Seeing Davis Webb in action will give us fans the idea of what we have at QB behind Eli Manning. With a potential top 3 pick and a potential franchise QB being available to pick, it would be nice to know if Webb is the future or not.

However, I really want to see what we have in Wheeler. He's been active many games this year and has seen very limited action.

Why is he not playing over Hart?

Hart has not earned the right to play.

With Pugh out, why don't we see Wheeler at RT and let the guy learn and grow on the line.

He can't be worse than Hart, can he?
needed a year in the weight room if I remember correctly  
viggie : 11/14/2017 11:01 am : link
has good technique but needs to get bigger.
I've always found it interesting the way NFL  
Thatís Gold, Jerry : 11/14/2017 11:09 am : link
teams and coaches think in this regards when a season is obviously over in terms of making the playoffs. Even veteran coaches who did not need to worry about their future seem to be reluctant to do as is being suggested here, unless there are injuries that dictate this is all you have.

I would like to see Wheeler also. I would have to imagine he's been lifting since the summer and hence stronger than he was.

Further, with the current situation, I think Mr. Slickback is thinking more of his own survival rather than trying out a kid to see what he can do.
Here is why I hope we never see Webb  
ThatLimerickGuy : 11/14/2017 11:10 am : link
Besides the fact that I legitimately do see Eli as giving us the best chance to win games, I do get the urge to throw Webb in there to "see what he's got".

What if you put Webb in for the last 3-4 games and he plays just OK?- some rookie mistakes but gives the offense a little juice with his mobility and does some good things.

What do you do then? Do you say "Ok let's build with this guy and see what happens" or do you say "With a top 3 pick we gotta get one of these young studs"?

I'd say let Eli play this thing out in 2017, draft the QB you want, and then let the rookie and Webb battle it out next year for the backup, all of the time understanding that one or the other is going to start in '19.

QB is like no other position in pro sports. You gotta load up until you find one.
Another issue might be that he has never played right tackle.  
Big Blue Blogger : 11/14/2017 11:13 am : link
The team isn't moving Flowers mid-season (and there's no good reason to, given his recent level of play). Although Hart has been pretty bad, there's a high likelihood that Wheeler would be even worse. He doesn't have an NFL body yet, and would be playing out of position.

I'm as curious about Wheeler as anyone, but auditioning him at RT might not be the best way to assess his future value.
RE: Here is why I hope we never see Webb  
PatersonPlank : 11/14/2017 11:19 am : link
In comment 13691845 ThatLimerickGuy said:
Quote:
Besides the fact that I legitimately do see Eli as giving us the best chance to win games, I do get the urge to throw Webb in there to "see what he's got".

What if you put Webb in for the last 3-4 games and he plays just OK?- some rookie mistakes but gives the offense a little juice with his mobility and does some good things.

What do you do then? Do you say "Ok let's build with this guy and see what happens" or do you say "With a top 3 pick we gotta get one of these young studs"?

I'd say let Eli play this thing out in 2017, draft the QB you want, and then let the rookie and Webb battle it out next year for the backup, all of the time understanding that one or the other is going to start in '19.

QB is like no other position in pro sports. You gotta load up until you find one.


My issue with this plan is we would have now spent 2 top picks (2 of our last 6 Rd 1-3 picks) on one position, when we have lots of holes also on the OL, RB, LB, and likely DB. Plus these 2 picks would be spent on positions that won't help us for 2+ years, unlike if we drafted a OT or OG that could start right away.

I'd prefer we make a determination on Webb before the draft. If its thumbs up, then draft an OL player/LB/RB/etc. Thumbs down then draft the QB (if the one you like is there).

I also don't subscribe to the fact that this QB class is so good, and that there are guaranteed franchise QBs there. First, its stupid to call a college senior an NFL franchise QB, they bust all the time so you just don't know. Second, none of these guys are lighting it up. Third, there will be good "franchise guys" there next drat too, maybe even Darnold again.

Finally, I hope everyone realizes that Webbs senior year stats, in the the same conference as Darnold and Rosen, will end up being better than every QB we are discussing (Rosen will be close). So this assumption that whoever we draft is going to be a better QB is flawed.
Just looked it up and I take that back  
PatersonPlank : 11/14/2017 11:23 am : link
Neither Rosen or Darnold's stats will be as good as Webbs. Mayfield and Rudolph will be close to Webbs senior season, but then again they play in a conference where playing defense is optional.
It makes on sense...  
BamaBlue : 11/14/2017 11:25 am : link
to keep Eli in games where the Giants are being blown-out. That seems to be a likely outcome for most of the remaining games. That's when you throw Geno or Webb out there. Why risk injury to Eli in a meaningless game?
On = No  
BamaBlue : 11/14/2017 11:26 am : link
.
We drafted  
ryanmkeane : 11/14/2017 11:37 am : link
Webb in the 3rd because he was thought to be a possible successor to Eli and our roster/team was going to be SB contenders for the next 2 seasons, so it was a great value pick at the time.

Flash forward to reality and we are the joke of the NFL, and Eli looks like he's going to fumble every other time he drops back.

We don't need to just throw Webb in there, but to not give him some playing time would be really stupid, I think.
RE: RE: Here is why I hope we never see Webb  
ThatLimerickGuy : 11/14/2017 11:44 am : link
In comment 13691856 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
In comment 13691845 ThatLimerickGuy said:


Quote:


Besides the fact that I legitimately do see Eli as giving us the best chance to win games, I do get the urge to throw Webb in there to "see what he's got".

What if you put Webb in for the last 3-4 games and he plays just OK?- some rookie mistakes but gives the offense a little juice with his mobility and does some good things.

What do you do then? Do you say "Ok let's build with this guy and see what happens" or do you say "With a top 3 pick we gotta get one of these young studs"?

I'd say let Eli play this thing out in 2017, draft the QB you want, and then let the rookie and Webb battle it out next year for the backup, all of the time understanding that one or the other is going to start in '19.

QB is like no other position in pro sports. You gotta load up until you find one.



My issue with this plan is we would have now spent 2 top picks (2 of our last 6 Rd 1-3 picks) on one position, when we have lots of holes also on the OL, RB, LB, and likely DB. Plus these 2 picks would be spent on positions that won't help us for 2+ years, unlike if we drafted a OT or OG that could start right away.

I'd prefer we make a determination on Webb before the draft. If its thumbs up, then draft an OL player/LB/RB/etc. Thumbs down then draft the QB (if the one you like is there).

I also don't subscribe to the fact that this QB class is so good, and that there are guaranteed franchise QBs there. First, its stupid to call a college senior an NFL franchise QB, they bust all the time so you just don't know. Second, none of these guys are lighting it up. Third, there will be good "franchise guys" there next drat too, maybe even Darnold again.

Finally, I hope everyone realizes that Webbs senior year stats, in the the same conference as Darnold and Rosen, will end up being better than every QB we are discussing (Rosen will be close). So this assumption that whoever we draft is going to be a better QB is flawed.


Good point. I had not thought of it that way
You want to see Wheeler?  
Doomster : 11/14/2017 11:46 am : link
Haven't you learned anything yet? We can't draft OLmen, and you think an undrafted one is the answer?

Let's just put him in the weight room, and voila! Instant lineman...

There are reasons why some guys are not drafted or are drafted late in the rounds...mainly because they suck....
a new regime is not going  
bluepepper : 11/14/2017 11:49 am : link
to put it's eggs in the Webb basket, not when the team has a top 5 pick in a pretty good QB draft. The current regime on the other hand will anoint Webb the QB of the future if he plays half way decently just like they anointed Perkins the starting RB and Hart the starting RT off mediocre at best performances. Wishful thinking like that is what has gotten us in the spot. No more of that. Let's get a real blue-chip prospect in there. And remember there's no law that says you can't have competition at QB.
sorry this thread is supposed to  
bluepepper : 11/14/2017 11:53 am : link
be about Wheeler not Webb. Same logic applies there. Unless he dazzles a new regime is not going to hand him a starting tackle job next year. If he does anything at all the current crew won't bother looking for someone better ala Hart last year.
RE: RE: Here is why I hope we never see Webb  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 11/14/2017 12:25 pm : link
In comment 13691856 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
In comment 13691845 ThatLimerickGuy said:


Quote:


Besides the fact that I legitimately do see Eli as giving us the best chance to win games, I do get the urge to throw Webb in there to "see what he's got".

What if you put Webb in for the last 3-4 games and he plays just OK?- some rookie mistakes but gives the offense a little juice with his mobility and does some good things.

What do you do then? Do you say "Ok let's build with this guy and see what happens" or do you say "With a top 3 pick we gotta get one of these young studs"?

I'd say let Eli play this thing out in 2017, draft the QB you want, and then let the rookie and Webb battle it out next year for the backup, all of the time understanding that one or the other is going to start in '19.

QB is like no other position in pro sports. You gotta load up until you find one.



My issue with this plan is we would have now spent 2 top picks (2 of our last 6 Rd 1-3 picks) on one position, when we have lots of holes also on the OL, RB, LB, and likely DB. Plus these 2 picks would be spent on positions that won't help us for 2+ years, unlike if we drafted a OT or OG that could start right away.

I'd prefer we make a determination on Webb before the draft. If its thumbs up, then draft an OL player/LB/RB/etc. Thumbs down then draft the QB (if the one you like is there).

I also don't subscribe to the fact that this QB class is so good, and that there are guaranteed franchise QBs there. First, its stupid to call a college senior an NFL franchise QB, they bust all the time so you just don't know. Second, none of these guys are lighting it up. Third, there will be good "franchise guys" there next drat too, maybe even Darnold again.

Finally, I hope everyone realizes that Webbs senior year stats, in the the same conference as Darnold and Rosen, will end up being better than every QB we are discussing (Rosen will be close). So this assumption that whoever we draft is going to be a better QB is flawed.


Except Webb played in a spread offense that inflates the passing stats, while Rosen, and Darnold played in more pro-style offenses. Dranold and Rosen also had to compete and probably beat out some serious talent to become starters at their schools. Webb lost to Mahomes in a competition.

Also Darnold and Rosen probably have better mechanics then Webb (Pre Draft at least).

I like Webb, but that doesn't mean you don't take a QB in the top of round 1, because I would much rather have our next QB compete against another solid talent and let the best player win. The loser can be turned into a pick if its a close battle. Nothing wrong with that.
I guess you could try all sorts of players and  
idiotsavant : 11/14/2017 12:48 pm : link
Configurations.

Just start Geno if you do that - to protect your real QB.

And in no way use it as an excuse to not invest madly in OL both via high draft picks and the top free agents.

It's long over due.
The idea that fans think they have the right  
blueblood : 11/14/2017 12:50 pm : link
" to see what we have" has gotten beyond ridiculous to me.
Yeah.... fans  
BamaBlue : 11/14/2017 12:59 pm : link
buy your tickets and hoodies and shut the hell up.
Webb  
Giantslifer : 11/14/2017 1:12 pm : link
Simple fact- Eli is done. It is time to start looking for next QB.
The process of finding Eli's replacement has to start NOW. Why wait?
Find a way to let Eli go out on his terms, but his time is over.

All player and coaching positions are up for grabs effective today.
Outside of last year the Giants have been the epitome of mediocrity, If it takes 2 years to rebuild a consistent winner - so be it

Do you want this team to turn into the JESTS, or worse cowboys?
RE: Here is why I hope we never see Webb  
bigbluescot : 11/14/2017 1:26 pm : link
In comment 13691845 ThatLimerickGuy said:
Quote:
Besides the fact that I legitimately do see Eli as giving us the best chance to win games, I do get the urge to throw Webb in there to "see what he's got".

What if you put Webb in for the last 3-4 games and he plays just OK?- some rookie mistakes but gives the offense a little juice with his mobility and does some good things.

What do you do then? Do you say "Ok let's build with this guy and see what happens" or do you say "With a top 3 pick we gotta get one of these young studs"?

I'd say let Eli play this thing out in 2017, draft the QB you want, and then let the rookie and Webb battle it out next year for the backup, all of the time understanding that one or the other is going to start in '19.

QB is like no other position in pro sports. You gotta load up until you find one.


Was reading an ex-coach, might have been Gruden, saying that sitting a QB as the 3rd QB doesn't really work anymore as the practice limitations really hamper reps. You want to develop a QB in the background you need to commit to one as the 2nd QB.
bigbluescot: I agree - limited reps have become a big problem.  
Big Blue Blogger : 11/14/2017 1:40 pm : link
With Webb, the idea may have been to use scout team reps to at least help him get comfortable under center. At some point, though, you need to let him run the real offense - preferably with the starters. Of course, the "real" offense may be quite different next year anyway.

The CBA restrictions are also a huge problem for young, raw offensive linemen like Wheeler and Bisnowaty. They might suck anyway, but how are they supposed to master their craft without hitting anybody?
RE: Here is why I hope we never see Webb  
ThreePoints : 11/14/2017 1:40 pm : link
In comment 13691845 ThatLimerickGuy said:
Quote:
Besides the fact that I legitimately do see Eli as giving us the best chance to win games, I do get the urge to throw Webb in there to "see what he's got".

What if you put Webb in for the last 3-4 games and he plays just OK?- some rookie mistakes but gives the offense a little juice with his mobility and does some good things.

What do you do then? Do you say "Ok let's build with this guy and see what happens" or do you say "With a top 3 pick we gotta get one of these young studs"?

I'd say let Eli play this thing out in 2017, draft the QB you want, and then let the rookie and Webb battle it out next year for the backup, all of the time understanding that one or the other is going to start in '19.

QB is like no other position in pro sports. You gotta load up until you find one.


This isn't a great comparison, but that's a bit of what happened with Johnny Manziel. Sat on the bench most of his rookie year. When the season was slipping away, they played in three games, and he was hurt in the last game of the season.

What if they played him in 6 games, rather than three? Would the Browns have seen something different? Basically, the Browns played Manziel but still didn't know what they had. Long story short, they had nothing.

Like I said, bad comparison. But I'd rather the Giants have tape on Webb than no tape at all.
For those who want to see the future at QB now  
idiotsavant : 11/14/2017 1:41 pm : link
Why would you throw them into this clusterfuvk?

I mean. Wouldn't that be like having a starter marriage with a 300lb wife beater?

How's that going to help you next time around?
Remember David Carr as a Rookie  
Samiam : 11/14/2017 1:55 pm : link
Carr was the 1st player taken in the draft if I remember correctly. Played behind a bad OL and took a horrible beating and was never the same QB after. Who know if his career would have been different.

Why would you want Webb behind an OL that has a horror show like Hart at RT and not great players alongside in pass protection. They have a pretty ordinary at best running game. And, one of the starting WRs is really a Practice Squad player. What do you get by putting someone barely familiar with the offense in that situation if you care about him going forward. It's stupidity.
RE: Another issue might be that he has never played right tackle.  
old man : 11/14/2017 2:11 pm : link
In comment 13691850 Big Blue Blogger said:
[quote] The team isn't moving Flowers mid-season (and there's no good reason to, given his recent level of play). Although Hart has been pretty bad, there's a high likelihood that Wheeler would be even worse. He doesn't have an NFL body yet, and would be playing out of position.

I'm as curious about Wheeler as anyone, but auditioning him at RT might not be the best way to assess his future value. [/quote

Can he do any worse than Hart for 1. series? Minimum.
RE: RE: Here is why I hope we never see Webb  
mitch300 : 11/14/2017 2:18 pm : link
In comment 13691856 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
In comment 13691845 ThatLimerickGuy said:


Quote:


Besides the fact that I legitimately do see Eli as giving us the best chance to win games, I do get the urge to throw Webb in there to "see what he's got".

What if you put Webb in for the last 3-4 games and he plays just OK?- some rookie mistakes but gives the offense a little juice with his mobility and does some good things.

What do you do then? Do you say "Ok let's build with this guy and see what happens" or do you say "With a top 3 pick we gotta get one of these young studs"?

I'd say let Eli play this thing out in 2017, draft the QB you want, and then let the rookie and Webb battle it out next year for the backup, all of the time understanding that one or the other is going to start in '19.

QB is like no other position in pro sports. You gotta load up until you find one.



My issue with this plan is we would have now spent 2 top picks (2 of our last 6 Rd 1-3 picks) on one position, when we have lots of holes also on the OL, RB, LB, and likely DB. Plus these 2 picks would be spent on positions that won't help us for 2+ years, unlike if we drafted a OT or OG that could start right away.

I'd prefer we make a determination on Webb before the draft. If its thumbs up, then draft an OL player/LB/RB/etc. Thumbs down then draft the QB (if the one you like is there).

I also don't subscribe to the fact that this QB class is so good, and that there are guaranteed franchise QBs there. First, its stupid to call a college senior an NFL franchise QB, they bust all the time so you just don't know. Second, none of these guys are lighting it up. Third, there will be good "franchise guys" there next drat too, maybe even Darnold again.

Finally, I hope everyone realizes that Webbs senior year stats, in the the same conference as Darnold and Rosen, will end up being better than every QB we are discussing (Rosen will be close). So this assumption that whoever we draft is going to be a better QB is flawed.

I agree 100%. Everyone saying just draft a QB and let him and Webb fight it out, when you have so many other holes to fill can be a waste of a pick.
RE: Remember David Carr as a Rookie  
ajr2456 : 11/14/2017 3:01 pm : link
In comment 13692094 Samiam said:
Quote:
Carr was the 1st player taken in the draft if I remember correctly. Played behind a bad OL and took a horrible beating and was never the same QB after. Who know if his career would have been different.

Why would you want Webb behind an OL that has a horror show like Hart at RT and not great players alongside in pass protection. They have a pretty ordinary at best running game. And, one of the starting WRs is really a Practice Squad player. What do you get by putting someone barely familiar with the offense in that situation if you care about him going forward. It's stupidity.


Carr played a decent amount of years in the league, yes most of it as a backup. The shell shocked by the bad oline is a fun story, but I think the reality was he just wasn't very good
i doubt If Webb plays that Giants  
joeinpa : 11/14/2017 3:37 pm : link
Could definitively decide they should pass on Darnold or Rosen should they be there when Giants pick

I could think of worst scenarios than having two young quarterbacks battling it out when time comes.
I wanted to see Wheeler weeks ago.  
Matt M. : 11/14/2017 3:52 pm : link
Even knowing he needs work, he can't really be worse than Hart, can he? I think he has the potential to be the diamond in the rough steal as an UDFA.
It makes a lot of sense to see Wheeler now, as well  
Matt M. : 11/14/2017 3:58 pm : link
since Flowers has improved and seems a lock to be the one holdover from this OL, whether it is at LT or RT. They need to see what Wheeler can do to see if OT, OG, or OC is their priority in the draft. Personally, and I don't know who the FA OCs are, but I would try to nab a top veteran OC to be able to come in and anchor the OL right away. They realistically need a minimum of OC and at least 1 OG (more likely 2, as I wouldn't re-sign Pugh at this point). Throw in a potential need for an OT...and that is just to start. Depth will also be needed. OL and LB may very well be all they focus on this offseason.
RE: needed a year in the weight room if I remember correctly  
mrvax : 11/14/2017 5:42 pm : link
In comment 13691826 viggie said:
Quote:
has good technique but needs to get bigger.


Too bad we lost Snee to Jacksonville. He had obviously mastered PEDs.
Is Wheeler usually active?  
mrvax : 11/14/2017 5:47 pm : link
If so, we can hope Hart catches a cold and is out for Sunday.

Sometimes coaches (Coughlin) need a swift kick in the ass to get a young guy some playing time.

RE: RE: RE: Here is why I hope we never see Webb  
ThatLimerickGuy : 11/14/2017 6:30 pm : link
In comment 13691979 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
In comment 13691856 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


In comment 13691845 ThatLimerickGuy said:


Quote:


Besides the fact that I legitimately do see Eli as giving us the best chance to win games, I do get the urge to throw Webb in there to "see what he's got".

What if you put Webb in for the last 3-4 games and he plays just OK?- some rookie mistakes but gives the offense a little juice with his mobility and does some good things.

What do you do then? Do you say "Ok let's build with this guy and see what happens" or do you say "With a top 3 pick we gotta get one of these young studs"?

I'd say let Eli play this thing out in 2017, draft the QB you want, and then let the rookie and Webb battle it out next year for the backup, all of the time understanding that one or the other is going to start in '19.

QB is like no other position in pro sports. You gotta load up until you find one.



My issue with this plan is we would have now spent 2 top picks (2 of our last 6 Rd 1-3 picks) on one position, when we have lots of holes also on the OL, RB, LB, and likely DB. Plus these 2 picks would be spent on positions that won't help us for 2+ years, unlike if we drafted a OT or OG that could start right away.

I'd prefer we make a determination on Webb before the draft. If its thumbs up, then draft an OL player/LB/RB/etc. Thumbs down then draft the QB (if the one you like is there).

I also don't subscribe to the fact that this QB class is so good, and that there are guaranteed franchise QBs there. First, its stupid to call a college senior an NFL franchise QB, they bust all the time so you just don't know. Second, none of these guys are lighting it up. Third, there will be good "franchise guys" there next drat too, maybe even Darnold again.

Finally, I hope everyone realizes that Webbs senior year stats, in the the same conference as Darnold and Rosen, will end up being better than every QB we are discussing (Rosen will be close). So this assumption that whoever we draft is going to be a better QB is flawed.



Except Webb played in a spread offense that inflates the passing stats, while Rosen, and Darnold played in more pro-style offenses. Dranold and Rosen also had to compete and probably beat out some serious talent to become starters at their schools. Webb lost to Mahomes in a competition.

Also Darnold and Rosen probably have better mechanics then Webb (Pre Draft at least).

I like Webb, but that doesn't mean you don't take a QB in the top of round 1, because I would much rather have our next QB compete against another solid talent and let the best player win. The loser can be turned into a pick if its a close battle. Nothing wrong with that.


Quick correction- Webb didn't get beat out by Mahomes per se- Webb got hurt and Mahomes came in and flashed at TT and the coaches went with the young guy. If Webb didn't get hurt Pat Mahomes would be the starting QB for Texas Tech this weekend.
One more thing, Webb played his senior year with all freshman and  
PatersonPlank : 11/14/2017 7:20 pm : link
sopohmore WR's if I remember correctly. Cal lost their top 5 WR's to graduation.
Wheeler  
Breeze_94 : 11/14/2017 9:54 pm : link
looked pretty good on film vs Takk McKinley in colelge but you could tell he needed to bulk up. He has great feet though.
Wheeler needs to play now  
Jay on the Island : 11/15/2017 11:12 am : link
He can't be worse than Hart at RT. It is very important to see if he is a legitimate option to start next season. If he plays well that would be a huge development for the future of the offensive line.
Eh, you're likely to see something even uglier  
JonC : 11/15/2017 12:01 pm : link
Backups are what they are for a reason, put multiple backups in there and you'll have what you see even moreso than the starters. And that's when players get injured and possibly you destroy any confidence they might have had.
RE: Is Wheeler usually active?  
HomerJones45 : 11/15/2017 12:12 pm : link
In comment 13692381 mrvax said:
Quote:
If so, we can hope Hart catches a cold and is out for Sunday.

Sometimes coaches (Coughlin) need a swift kick in the ass to get a young guy some playing time.
That canard again? Even you may have learned by now that the "young guys" Reese furnished for the most part sucked or are you still waiting for Jernigan, Barden, McCants etc to become a big stars?
RE: Wheeler needs to play now  
HomerJones45 : 11/15/2017 12:12 pm : link
In comment 13692909 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
He can't be worse than Hart at RT. It is very important to see if he is a legitimate option to start next season. If he plays well that would be a huge development for the future of the offensive line.
Yes he can and Hart blows.
Looking forward  
EddieNYG : 11/19/2017 11:15 am : link
To Wheeler's first start today!
Who gets to  
XBRONX : 11/19/2017 11:23 am : link
block Justin Houston?
RE: Who gets to  
EddieNYG : 11/19/2017 12:11 pm : link
In comment 13696615 XBRONX said:
Quote:
block Justin Houston?


Let's see what he can do.

Only way to know if we have something or not.
RE: Who gets to  
Big Blue Blogger : 11/19/2017 12:39 pm : link
XBRONX said:
Quote:
block Justin Houston?
By most accounts, Houston isn't quite the same player he was three years ago. He's still a very dangerous pass-rusher, but the injuries have taken a toll. If he dominates today, nobody should say, "Well, sure - that was Justin Houston out there. What do you expect?"
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