that are must keeps for next season. Shepard, OBJ, ENgram, Snacks, and Collins. Tomlinson has potential and Eli/Webb maybe? You can make the case to jettison anyone else on the roster in my opinion. That's sad.
If you count him in then you need to count Apple in also both are not playing well why include one not the other. Please don’t say effort because they have both been abused at times but they are way to young to throw away after one bad season. Let’s be clear this team has talent but I see the players not performing as individuals and groups. If your going to rebuild then you have to look at your young guys which is something I hope we see as this season continues.
We might have said the same thing in 1983 or 2003. Â
In 1983, Lawrence Taylor was the obvious cornerstone. Mark Haynes was a keeper (though he would wear out his welcome by 1985), and Terry Kinard showed some promise as a rookie. Van Pelt and Kelley were done; Carson, Martin and Jennings looked too worn down to be part of a major rebuild. On offense, Earnest Gray was the only guy who did anything in 1983 - mostly compiling stats in ugly losses - and he was too erratic to be a real #1 WR. Most fans had written off Simms. Morris had made no impression in two pro seasons. The offensive line was a disaster. Ali Haji-Sheikh would have been a consensus keeper, and his wheels came off the next year.
In some ways, 2003 was even grimmer. Shockey was the young stud. Umenyiora had obvious talent, though he hadn't done much as a rookie. Strahan, Barber and Toomer turned out to have plenty left in the tank, but a lot of fans were ready to jettison all three as aging relics of Fassel's "Country Club", and figured they wouldn't last long under Coughlin. The offensive line was, again, a wasteland: Seubert was wrecked, Petitgout's back made him a permanent question mark, Diehl was a nice young utility player and the rest didn't belong in the NFL.
As for 2017/2018, there are only a few positions where I'm pretty sure next year's starters are not on the team: OLB, and a couple of spots along the offensive line, plus maybe one of the top three WR spots. Not that I think the current roster is good. I just have no idea what the prospects are for guys like Apple, Goodson, Thompson, Moss and Gallman, or whether an immediate upgrade will be available at any of their positions.
Unlike a lot of posters, I think the Giants can win with a starting line of Vernon, Harrison, Tomlinson and Pierre-Paul. But they need much better complementary/depth players in the front seven. Maybe Moss can be part of the answer. They might try to retain Kennard, if he fits whatever scheme the team runs next year. For the year or so he managed to stay healthy, he was pretty good. Same with Robinson, but I can't see the team counting on him again.
Should have included Leonard Marshall as a 1983 'keeper'. Â
These are the only 5 players worth keeping in the current system. I content that the "current system" isn't worth keeping and I'd change that long before I'd change players.
with Flowers, he has quietly improved quite a bit although he is still struggling in execution with the run game.
Pugh, and Richburg should also be brought back as long as they are healthy.
Goodson, Kennard, Tomlinson also.
I also like what Orleans Darkwa has done - he has the potential to be a solid player for this team and can contribute (and has contributed!) when healthy.
Bottom line is everything that could go wrong this season, went wrong. The lack of leadership from the very top has allowed this thing to spiral out of control, and in the long run a change will be made and the pieces that grade out higher than others will be here in 2018.
with Flowers, he has quietly improved quite a bit although he is still struggling in execution with the run game.
Pugh, and Richburg should also be brought back as long as they are healthy.
Goodson, Kennard, Tomlinson also.
I also like what Orleans Darkwa has done - he has the potential to be a solid player for this team and can contribute (and has contributed!) when healthy.
Bottom line is everything that could go wrong this season, went wrong. The lack of leadership from the very top has allowed this thing to spiral out of control, and in the long run a change will be made and the pieces that grade out higher than others will be here in 2018.
He's become mediocre at best. And when the roster is in a shambles, you can live with mediocre at best and hit other problem areas - especially if no franchise offensive lineman is immediately available.
to get the ship right. Poor people management is the Giants undoing right now. DRC and Jackrabbit are premier players in this league. A coach should know that get these fellas bought in and the whole defense turn around. Get a proper coach in here and I will not be surprised to see this thing get back on track.
This team needs players who light fires in the collective Â
but I think Flowers is going to be very good over the course of his career. Hard to make the case of must-keep for anyone else.
I agree.
I agree as well. And I see minority opinion growing. Young players need time to mature and develop, some more than others. Flowers was not only very young when he came to the NFL, but due to injury he was forced to start at the most difficult position on the OL; long before he was ready. He didn't even make it through his second season of development and fans were calling on the team to kick him to the curb. Sometimes you have to be a little more patient with young guys, and place them into positions where they can achieve early success. I think we may find that Eli Apple will develop into a decent CB, and I am one who is not ready to kick him to the curb just yet, and certainly not because he regressed during his sophomore season in the NFL.
but I think Flowers is going to be very good over the course of his career. Hard to make the case of must-keep for anyone else.
I agree.
I agree as well. And I see minority opinion growing. Young players need time to mature and develop, some more than others. Flowers was not only very young when he came to the NFL, but due to injury he was forced to start at the most difficult position on the OL; long before he was ready. He didn't even make it through his second season of development and fans were calling on the team to kick him to the curb. Sometimes you have to be a little more patient with young guys, and place them into positions where they can achieve early success. I think we may find that Eli Apple will develop into a decent CB, and I am one who is not ready to kick him to the curb just yet, and certainly not because he regressed during his sophomore season in the NFL.
I think Apple can be saved. He's still a kid and he's immensely talented.They need a new, strong DC and staff to do it, and keep him the hell away from assholes like Jenkins.
that you could plug into any team and perform very well from day one.
This does nothing to excuse Jerry Reese, as much is to do with -who- the JAGS are and who the developing players are, what positions, what types and who are the street level players forced onto the roster and why.
the Rams have done with Mark Barron. Collins is a downhill player...he really can't cover. Play him close to the LOS and let him use his blitzing skills and ability to stop the run.
There's been very little leadership in 2017, nothing to ignite the pass rush or kick the OL in the arse to get going. Where's the heart?
There has been no truer statement than this right here. We have no leaders, except Eli, but he leads by example, which is why we see the offense trying their best but they simply don't have enough talent. The defense has NO leadership which is why you see a bunch of quitters out there. We need a Strahan, Tuck or Pierce out there. Collins is trying to lead vocally but his own play can't back it up. Same with Casilas.
in the middle of a season like this. Once the season ends and things settle down a bit, I believe the media and fans will soften their stances on who needs to stay and who needs to go.
The league is so momentum-based and if things start off well next year, it's very reasonable to think certain players can return to peak form.
I think guys like Vernon, Jenkins, Flowers and Apple are going to be a part of the team next year.
60-70% of the guys on the 2017 team will be on the 2018 team. Jenkins might be the only big name guy who has played himself off the team for next season. Not sure after all the antics that they can bring him back.
Gallman and Moss have flashed and look like solid role players (or better). And if Goodson can shake the injury bug, he's a definite keeper in the middle.
yeah because he was such a hall of fucking famer. 2 games below .500 lifetime the essence of mediocrity. please
I don't understand where you got that from, his record is 100-85 as a HC in the NFL. He took over a lousy Raiders team and turned them into a Division Champ in his 3rd year. The lost in the AFC Championship game mostly because Gannon got hurt. The Raiders were 4-12 the year before he got there, so thats one reason his record isn't better. Tampa Bay was a little different, they were already a decent team. He was there for 6 years, winning 3 Division Titles and a SB.
IMO he's a very good coach, and still in touch with the NFL through his announcing gig.
Been waiting for someone to point this out since the season began. Right on, I'm afraid. (Missed this thread yesterday and sorry to see it dropping out of sight today.)
Wow Pork, you just beat me.
In some ways, 2003 was even grimmer. Shockey was the young stud. Umenyiora had obvious talent, though he hadn't done much as a rookie. Strahan, Barber and Toomer turned out to have plenty left in the tank, but a lot of fans were ready to jettison all three as aging relics of Fassel's "Country Club", and figured they wouldn't last long under Coughlin. The offensive line was, again, a wasteland: Seubert was wrecked, Petitgout's back made him a permanent question mark, Diehl was a nice young utility player and the rest didn't belong in the NFL.
As for 2017/2018, there are only a few positions where I'm pretty sure next year's starters are not on the team: OLB, and a couple of spots along the offensive line, plus maybe one of the top three WR spots. Not that I think the current roster is good. I just have no idea what the prospects are for guys like Apple, Goodson, Thompson, Moss and Gallman, or whether an immediate upgrade will be available at any of their positions.
Unlike a lot of posters, I think the Giants can win with a starting line of Vernon, Harrison, Tomlinson and Pierre-Paul. But they need much better complementary/depth players in the front seven. Maybe Moss can be part of the answer. They might try to retain Kennard, if he fits whatever scheme the team runs next year. For the year or so he managed to stay healthy, he was pretty good. Same with Robinson, but I can't see the team counting on him again.
he got his money, and that's all that matters to him..the sooner thay figure out a way to jettison him, the better
jenkins can go, too.. 2 big cancers that aint worth a damn, either one of them
Pugh, and Richburg should also be brought back as long as they are healthy.
Goodson, Kennard, Tomlinson also.
I also like what Orleans Darkwa has done - he has the potential to be a solid player for this team and can contribute (and has contributed!) when healthy.
Bottom line is everything that could go wrong this season, went wrong. The lack of leadership from the very top has allowed this thing to spiral out of control, and in the long run a change will be made and the pieces that grade out higher than others will be here in 2018.
Pugh, and Richburg should also be brought back as long as they are healthy.
Goodson, Kennard, Tomlinson also.
I also like what Orleans Darkwa has done - he has the potential to be a solid player for this team and can contribute (and has contributed!) when healthy.
Bottom line is everything that could go wrong this season, went wrong. The lack of leadership from the very top has allowed this thing to spiral out of control, and in the long run a change will be made and the pieces that grade out higher than others will be here in 2018.
He's become mediocre at best. And when the roster is in a shambles, you can live with mediocre at best and hit other problem areas - especially if no franchise offensive lineman is immediately available.
I agree.
Quote:
but I think Flowers is going to be very good over the course of his career. Hard to make the case of must-keep for anyone else.
I agree.
Quote:
In comment 13692630 Pork Chop said:
Quote:
but I think Flowers is going to be very good over the course of his career. Hard to make the case of must-keep for anyone else.
I agree.
I agree as well. And I see minority opinion growing. Young players need time to mature and develop, some more than others. Flowers was not only very young when he came to the NFL, but due to injury he was forced to start at the most difficult position on the OL; long before he was ready. He didn't even make it through his second season of development and fans were calling on the team to kick him to the curb. Sometimes you have to be a little more patient with young guys, and place them into positions where they can achieve early success. I think we may find that Eli Apple will develop into a decent CB, and I am one who is not ready to kick him to the curb just yet, and certainly not because he regressed during his sophomore season in the NFL.
I think Apple can be saved. He's still a kid and he's immensely talented.They need a new, strong DC and staff to do it, and keep him the hell away from assholes like Jenkins.
This does nothing to excuse Jerry Reese, as much is to do with -who- the JAGS are and who the developing players are, what positions, what types and who are the street level players forced onto the roster and why.
Coaching, expectations, hope, style of play.
Fix these and the list will grow or change.
The true answer lies somewhere in the middle, obviously.
This team needs the right leadership and motivation from the coaching staff - which the current regime can't provide.
There has been no truer statement than this right here. We have no leaders, except Eli, but he leads by example, which is why we see the offense trying their best but they simply don't have enough talent. The defense has NO leadership which is why you see a bunch of quitters out there. We need a Strahan, Tuck or Pierce out there. Collins is trying to lead vocally but his own play can't back it up. Same with Casilas.
Yep.
yeah because he was such a hall of fucking famer. 2 games below .500 lifetime the essence of mediocrity. please
The league is so momentum-based and if things start off well next year, it's very reasonable to think certain players can return to peak form.
I think guys like Vernon, Jenkins, Flowers and Apple are going to be a part of the team next year.
Quote:
.
yeah because he was such a hall of fucking famer. 2 games below .500 lifetime the essence of mediocrity. please
I don't understand where you got that from, his record is 100-85 as a HC in the NFL. He took over a lousy Raiders team and turned them into a Division Champ in his 3rd year. The lost in the AFC Championship game mostly because Gannon got hurt. The Raiders were 4-12 the year before he got there, so thats one reason his record isn't better. Tampa Bay was a little different, they were already a decent team. He was there for 6 years, winning 3 Division Titles and a SB.
IMO he's a very good coach, and still in touch with the NFL through his announcing gig.
Eli -- but draft his replacement
OBJ
Sheppard
Engram
Flowers
Vernon
Snacks
Goodson
Collins
DeOssie
That's 10. The rest are JAGs