around an aging quarterback and a clear example of how not to build around an gaining quarterback.
Both from the same draft class, both have won two Super Bowls (although Ben has one more SB appearance), yet Ben has had a consistent playoff team and consistent winner whereas Eli has been in one playoff game since winning Super Bowl 46.
Ben has a very good offensive line with a stud running back, a receiver comparable to OBJ in Antonio Brown(possibly better), has had and continues to have good tight ends. Eli has had OBJ but a terrible offensive line, nowhere near a stud running back and only this year does he have a tight end who scares people.
The results, I think, speak for themselves. Two flagship NFL franchises, one run properly, the other not so much. One aging quarterback who has consistently had a playoff shot and certainly seems to have a good shot at another Super Bowl this season. The other on a team that is a complete disaster.
For two organizations so closely aligned, including family ties, these two teams could not be more different.
If you said the reverse in the 80's, you'd make it look like the Steelers were dogshit.
It is like a broken fucking record that almost every post talks about the construction of the team being complete shit. We get it. But to keep trying to make it out like the Giants are an organizational nightmare and most other teams are pillars of excellent management reeks of anger at the results.
Both the Steelers and giants are in the upper eschelon of the NFL. Both in performance, in championships, and in the prudence their owners show in making personnel decisions. A bad year sucks. An extended period of inconsistent results pisses fans off, but basically it is just the 10,768th instance of bitching.
So the players, ownership, management and coaching sucks ass. We are years away from being a contender again. If you keep telling yourself (and unfortunately us too) that to lower expectations, fine. But is really is just a steaming pile of frustration.
I don't get your point? no one should whine and bitch on a fan forum when their team hasn't been a playoff team for 5 out of 6 years? Also are you trying to say that because Steelers sucked in the 80's its our turn to suck now and we should just accept it because we are an upper echelon team?
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Eli had:
Amani Toomer
Steve Smith
Victor Cruz
Hakeem Nicks
Mario Manningham
Problem for the Giants and Eli is most of his guys never could stay healthy.
Those guys were all healthy for at least the same duration as the players you listed above played for the Steelers (all in their rookie deals -- which back then it took a WR 3 years to get up to speed in the pros). Holmes - 4 yrs in Pitt. Burress - 4 years in Pitt. Randle-El 4 years. Wallace 4 yrs. Sanders 4 yrs.
by the way -- Randle-El? Are you serious with that? The guy never topped a 600 yard season. Might as well talk about Reuben Randle (a 2nd round pick) here.
I think most of us can be proud of Eli's tenure here without making up utter nonsense that he's never had a supporting cast here. He's had a little of 1st and 2nd round picks to throw to here for a decade now -- and for all the deserved crap Reese gets, we can all agree - he does at least know how to draft receivers.
You lose credibility with this. The line 2005-2010 was damn good. I'd put them up against any other line over that same time frame. For a couple years they were arguably the best.
You keep talking about the past decade. What about the past 5+ years? You know, when an older QB needs a supporting cast the most?
Similarly, there is nothing wrong with Eli's arm. He can still make all the throws and there is practically no tougher qb.
If there is a difference, it's that Pittsburgh's scouting has been very, very good. They draft well (Bell was a second rounder, Antonio Brown was a #6)and they find UDFA's. They keep the pipeline filled being able to replace stars like Hines Ward and Sanders. You give a team with a qb like Big Ben and a coach like Tomlin (who is on his way to Canton) a player pipeline like that and there will be consistent success (having the perennial doormat Browns in your division also helps). They aren't constructing a defense every year out of nothing.
+ 1 The most persuasive indictment of why Reese and crew need to be shown the door.
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In comment 13694720 Dnew15 said:
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Eli had:
Amani Toomer
Steve Smith
Victor Cruz
Hakeem Nicks
Mario Manningham
Problem for the Giants and Eli is most of his guys never could stay healthy.
Those guys were all healthy for at least the same duration as the players you listed above played for the Steelers (all in their rookie deals -- which back then it took a WR 3 years to get up to speed in the pros). Holmes - 4 yrs in Pitt. Burress - 4 years in Pitt. Randle-El 4 years. Wallace 4 yrs. Sanders 4 yrs.
by the way -- Randle-El? Are you serious with that? The guy never topped a 600 yard season. Might as well talk about Reuben Randle (a 2nd round pick) here.
I think most of us can be proud of Eli's tenure here without making up utter nonsense that he's never had a supporting cast here. He's had a little of 1st and 2nd round picks to throw to here for a decade now -- and for all the deserved crap Reese gets, we can all agree - he does at least know how to draft receivers.
Smith was here what, few years where he had both knees? Manningham wasn't anything outside NY. Cruz was great one year and was obviously better with a healthy Nicks. Nicks - who lasted wau shorter than you hoped. Again, no success outside.
As for Randle-Randle El. Randle El had good seasons outside Pitt. Why is that a negative? What's Randle done outside NY?
Ev
Every single WR was a starter outside Pittsburgh. The Giants WR's listed were more potential than success.
Steelers as Ben's career has advanced have put more resources into their offense and hoped the defense can be good enough to get by.
They appear to be good enough to beat every team in the NFL except for one who they lost to consistently. Right now, they are on pace to get their shot in a rematch, so we will see how it works out.
Looking at their cap hits for this season...of their top 12 cap hits in 2017, 5 of them are their starting offensive linemen, including 2 of them being paid over $11 million.
Of the starting 11 who played defense for the Steelers last night, their combined cap hit this season was only $23.4 million. Even if you add in the salary of the 3 regulars who were injured and didn't play (Mitchell, Gay, Haden), you only get to $37 million.
To put that in perspective, Vernon's cap hit for the Giants this season by himself is $16 million. Look at the rest of the defensive cap hits and the return on investment this year has been poor.
That tells me they are getting some good return on their defensive draft picks over the last few years.
This is what has KILLED the Giants in the 2nd half of Eli's career. The inability to draft enough quality cost-controlled players.
Steelers are paying Ben, Bell, Brown and their o-line good dollars. But that has been offset by the other guys. Giants have not had the same level of success with their players.
Posting from my phone.
The steelers OL is comprised of 2 1st rd picks C M. Pouncey and G David DeCastro (both of whom have injury histories), a 2nd rd. pick in Marcus Gilbert (who has been up and down), undrafted free agent Roman Foster and Alejandro Villanueva (who they guessed on and got right). Then they drafted LeVeon Bell in the 2nd rd in 2013.
The Giants constructed their line very similarly - 2 1st rounders in Pugh and Flowers, 1 2nd rounder in Richburg and tried to get lucky with Hart a 6th rd. pick.
The Giants also drafted David Wilson in the 1st round of the 2012 draft.
Some of it was missing the mark - some was bad luck - but I agree that the results have been more positive for Steelers than the Giants overall...but I think they mirrored each other in how they tried to build their rosters.
coaching Mike Tomlin has NEVER had a losing record at Pittsburgh
One could make a case that it's not like Pittsburgh was a dominant team in any year that Ben/Tomlin has been there. In their best year, they barely squeaked by the 9-7 Cardinals to win a trophy.
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One could make a case that it's not like Pittsburgh was a dominant team in any year that Ben/Tomlin has been there. In their best year, they barely squeaked by the 9-7 Cardinals to win a trophy.
Huh? They've been 12-4 twice, 11-5 twice and appeared in 2 Super Bowls winning one in the Tomlin era. What exactly do you consider "dominant"?
I was wondering about that.
Add to it, the Steelers in the Tomlin/Roethlisberger era have probably played in the toughest division in the NFL if you take into account the amount of times their rivals have also made the playoffs.
Since the start of 2007:
Pittsburgh: 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2016 *2017
5 AFC North titles, 7 10-win seasons
Baltimore: 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2014
2 AFC North titles, 5 10-win seasons
Cincinnati: 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015
3 AFC North titles, 5 10-win seasons
This has not been a division of mediocrity like others we see. You can say New England has had it easy because of the Jets, Dolphins and Bills. But the AFC North has been anything but that and yet the Steelers have been just a bit better than the others despite the roster turnover as they morphed from a team that was built primarily on defense when Ben started out to them being built now more on offense.
Nor would I use any of the Giants guys to support your position:
Amani Toomer (retired but was on downside of career when Eli got into the picture)
Steve Smith
Victor Cruz
Hakeem Nicks
Mario Manningham
Please tell me exactly what any of these guys did after the Giants? I'm not even sure how much these guys did with Eli when they were actually here.
The Bengals as a regular season team have been a tough opponent for a while now. I fail to see how they are any easier to play than Dallas.
Wins since 2005 (beginning of Eli's career): Dallas 115, Cincinnati 107 (i assumed Cincy's 2 ties in that span equate to 1-1)
Wins since 2011 (latter part of Eli/Ben's careers which is what this thread is apparently about): Cincy 61.5, Dallas 58
Eli - Gallman, Darkwa
Rivers - Top 10 RB in Gordon
Big Ben - Top 3 RB in Bell
Brees - Ingram/Kamara (arguably best tandem)
Ryan - Freeman/Coleman (arguably best tandem)
Smith - Top rookie back in Hunt
Goff - Atguably Top 5 back in Gurley
Wentz - Addai, Blount
Prescott - Elliot
Newton - McCaffery and Stewart
Carr - Lynch
Look at the Jags. The only reason their offense isnt bottom 5 is because of Fournette.
One QB's RBs are different then the rest here guys. For all the talk about this being a passing league now, the best offenses have a special RB or 2 that make their offense go. Eli hasnt had anything CLOSE to the RB's I've listed above since 2012. Think about that.
The Eagles have Addai? No wonder they went out and traded for the RB from Miami.
Its amazing the lengths people will go to make excuses around here.
Steelers are way better than the Giants at drafting and at evaluating talent.
That's why they tend to lose there way and forget who they are.While other teams stick with formulas that win.
Exactly where am I posting that I know more than you, or are you just pissed because I pointed out the uselessness of the post?
One can agree that the results of the team have been disappointing and still not sound like a whiny cunt while doing it.
I think Reese sucks
we need new football management from the top
let me say this
I've been alive for 56 years, for the majority of it, the Giants have been bad to Garbage
Parcells period and Coughlin period is the best we've had
PhiPsi125 : 12:38 pm : link : reply
Nor would I use any of the Giants guys to support your position:
Amani Toomer (retired but was on downside of career when Eli got into the picture)
Steve Smith
Victor Cruz
Hakeem Nicks
Mario Manningham
Please tell me exactly what any of these guys did after the Giants? I'm not even sure how much these guys did with Eli when they were actually here.
That makes no sense. What position am I supporting?
None of those guys did anything post Giants nor have I stated that. In the case of Smith, Cruz, and Nicks I believe they were talented players cut down by injury. Manningham was just an average player imo. You are being stubborn if you don't recognize what these guys did while healthy
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since Tiki. You can say he had Ahmad and Jacobs, both good RB's behind a special OL. I just wish we were able to see Eli when hes not expected to carry the load each and every season. As a 37 year old, you just cant expect that to happen. Look at the RB situations for these others.
Eli - Gallman, Darkwa
Rivers - Top 10 RB in Gordon
Big Ben - Top 3 RB in Bell
Brees - Ingram/Kamara (arguably best tandem)
Ryan - Freeman/Coleman (arguably best tandem)
Smith - Top rookie back in Hunt
Goff - Atguably Top 5 back in Gurley
Wentz - Addai, Blount
Prescott - Elliot
Newton - McCaffery and Stewart
Carr - Lynch
Look at the Jags. The only reason their offense isnt bottom 5 is because of Fournette.
One QB's RBs are different then the rest here guys. For all the talk about this being a passing league now, the best offenses have a special RB or 2 that make their offense go. Eli hasnt had anything CLOSE to the RB's I've listed above since 2012. Think about that.
The Eagles have Addai? No wonder they went out and traded for the RB from Miami.
Ajayi....at this point I bet Joseph Addai would be better than the current crop of rbs we have had the past few years.
Its amazing the lengths people will go to make excuses around here.
Sure, pick the one tandem that was the worst of the bunch to prove my point wrong. Also, who am I making excuses for? Its a fact our offense sucks. Do you really think this offense is talented enough to play with anybody?
2006 - Plax 76-1214-7
2007 - Plax 63-988-10
2008 - Plax 70-1025-12
2009 - Steve Smith 107-1220-7
2010 - Nicks 70-1052-11
2011 - Nicks 76-1192-7
2011 - Cruz 82-1536-9
2012 - Cruz 86-1092-10
2014 - OBJ 91-1305-12
2015 - OBJ 96-1450-13
2016 - OBJ 101-1367-10
Now Reese has had his share of draft screwups starting with Sintim, Austin, Barden, and Flowers is not a good pick at 9. But every GM has draft screwups. But when you get screwups plus losing high draft picks to early career ending injuries, you get serious problems. Does anybody know if the Steelers lost high picks like the Giants?
We get weekly posts discussing who is building a better team and who has a better record and at the end of the day, what the fuck are you going to do about it? Continue to make post after post about how incompetent we are while other teams are excelling?
Even when people keep saying we've missed the playoffs 5 out of 6 years, they do it at a convenient cutoff- right after we won a SB, and I'll still maintain that people here don't appreciate the SB's enough. They expect a winning team and the alternative is made out to be that we're doormats. Outside of this year, that isn't even close to being true.
And from a respect for winning background - I isn't just in the sense that anyone who won a SB should be an icon - it's just that acting like we're a completely shitty team and have been for some time is really offbase.
People are frustrated - so I guess a fan board will continue to get thread after thread repeating the same shit.
Fantastic.
Now Reese has had his share of draft screwups starting with Sintim, Austin, Barden, and Flowers is not a good pick at 9. But every GM has draft screwups. But when you get screwups plus losing high draft picks to early career ending injuries, you get serious problems. Does anybody know if the Steelers lost high picks like the Giants?
His point was fair, your response was not.
Outside of both teams good fortune to achieve the pinnacle of their sport a few times since that 2004 Draft, the year in and year out consistency of Steelers peformance is far more commendable than our own.
And that consistency is clearly seen in their drafts, QB play, offensive lineman and overall Defensive play.
And this with our main guy never missing a snap while Big Ben has been shelved numerous times...
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RE: I'm with MetsAreBack
PhiPsi125 : 12:38 pm : link : reply
Nor would I use any of the Giants guys to support your position:
Amani Toomer (retired but was on downside of career when Eli got into the picture)
Steve Smith
Victor Cruz
Hakeem Nicks
Mario Manningham
Please tell me exactly what any of these guys did after the Giants? I'm not even sure how much these guys did with Eli when they were actually here.
That makes no sense. What position am I supporting?
None of those guys did anything post Giants nor have I stated that. In the case of Smith, Cruz, and Nicks I believe they were talented players cut down by injury. Manningham was just an average player imo. You are being stubborn if you don't recognize what these guys did while healthy
It makes perfect sense. The point you were arguing against was that Ben had a better WR corps that Eli did. You said that you wouldn't use those Pitt receivers as support of that argument because they weren't very good after they left Pitt/Ben. Which is a ridiculous statement in itself. That's just you not recognizing what those Pitt guys did while healthy and playing with Ben. My point was that the Giants receivers I listed did absolutely nothing after they left Eli as well, so your point is moot. Except, the Giants WRs fell off the face of the earth. Plus, it's not like they had this long string of productive years under Eli. Our WRs flamed out pretty fast.
Banks : 11:12 am : link : reply
Randle El sucked. He was unreliable. Santonio Holmes had a single 1000 yard season and was terrible after leaving Ben in his prime without injuries. Wallace has also been a massive disappointment since Ben. Miami and Minny couldn't wait to shed him. I wouldn't use any of these guys to support your position.
LG in NYC : 4:17 pm : link : reply
and yet this OP made a specific point about 2 teams with QB's who were drafted in the same year and forever linked to each other.
His point was fair, your response was not.
His point was that the steelers have built around their AGING QB better than we have when basically both teams have built the same way since both guys were drafted.
It isn't like the Steelers said that Ben was in his 30's so they were going to build in a certain direction, just the same as the Giants didn't either.
It is really just sour grapes about each team's record. One thing the steelers and Giants both are is pretty consistent in their team building in the past 15 years. The steelers have a strong OL, strong LB's and safeties and a solid back. They've also had decent WR's too. They tend to not put much of a premium on TE's or CB's.
The giants on the other hand tend to build with WR's, DL and DB's. They tend to ignore LB's and failed with building a OL.
Don't confuse one plan working vs. one that didn't with the steelers doing something extraordinary to build around Ben.
Tell me in which area the Giants have been better over the past 5 years.
Defense - Steelers except last year ours was better.
OL - Steelers
TE - Steelers until this year.
RB - Steelers
WR - Steelers
Special teams - Steelers
QB - Even
Don't the Giants replace their free agents DT with low cost high quality draftees? The Giants made a conscious decision that they will let their high price DT walk in free agency and replace them with draftees. So far that strategy has worked. In recent years the Giants were not in a position to draft for depth because so many key players were lost to injury and had to be replaced. We can't dismiss the effects that injuries played on Giants drafts.
Eli has has what three top ten defenses around him, Big ben many more. Helps in many ways.
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RE: I'm with MetsAreBack
PhiPsi125 : 12:38 pm : link : reply
Nor would I use any of the Giants guys to support your position:
Amani Toomer (retired but was on downside of career when Eli got into the picture)
Steve Smith
Victor Cruz
Hakeem Nicks
Mario Manningham
Please tell me exactly what any of these guys did after the Giants? I'm not even sure how much these guys did with Eli when they were actually here.
That makes no sense. What position am I supporting?
None of those guys did anything post Giants nor have I stated that. In the case of Smith, Cruz, and Nicks I believe they were talented players cut down by injury. Manningham was just an average player imo. You are being stubborn if you don't recognize what these guys did while healthy
It makes perfect sense. The point you were arguing against was that Ben had a better WR corps that Eli did. You said that you wouldn't use those Pitt receivers as support of that argument because they weren't very good after they left Pitt/Ben. Which is a ridiculous statement in itself. That's just you not recognizing what those Pitt guys did while healthy and playing with Ben. My point was that the Giants receivers I listed did absolutely nothing after they left Eli as well, so your point is moot. Except, the Giants WRs fell off the face of the earth. Plus, it's not like they had this long string of productive years under Eli. Our WRs flamed out pretty fast.
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I'm with MetsAreBack
Banks : 11:12 am : link : reply
Randle El sucked. He was unreliable. Santonio Holmes had a single 1000 yard season and was terrible after leaving Ben in his prime without injuries. Wallace has also been a massive disappointment since Ben. Miami and Minny couldn't wait to shed him. I wouldn't use any of these guys to support your position.
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but I'm scratching my head here wondering why we are trying to make a point about how former giants WRs performed after leaving the team. Those players played here too recently for anyone to pretend to forget WHY they became former giants in the first place. They all left with monster injuries. Of course they went on to do nothing.
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In comment 13694645 CT Charlie said:
Drafting 1(one) OL higher than round 3(THREE) in 6 (six) seasons reflects lack of foresight...sucking at it made it worse.
2013 Rd 1 Pugh
2014 Rd 2 Richburg
2015 Rd 1 Flowers
Sucking perhaps, but 3 high draft picks out of last 6
Yes. He forced 3 high picks by passing on OL other than the pedestrian Beatty. His first 5 years as GM. People want to ignore common sense that he passed on OL like Max Unger for Sintim who didn't fit at all. David Wilson when the OL was in need instead of Cordy Glenn.
We were told there wasn't any tackles worth the 25 th pick over and over. Somehow Ramcyck and Cam Robinson are starting at LT and doing very well. It's not that Engram was a bad pick. But it's a pattern. He wants the sexy playmakers. And when guys fail in that we get Bobby Hart at RT.
The draft process isn't something that really supports absolute determinations.
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Absolutely correct, imv. I haven't done a side by side comparison with Pitt, but it's clear the Giants drafting performance is falling short. When you factor in the high picks spent (and let go) at DT and Prince, those picks in particular really hurt the pipeline on defense.
Don't the Giants replace their free agents DT with low cost high quality draftees? The Giants made a conscious decision that they will let their high price DT walk in free agency and replace them with draftees. So far that strategy has worked. In recent years the Giants were not in a position to draft for depth because so many key players were lost to injury and had to be replaced. We can't dismiss the effects that injuries played on Giants drafts.
Huh? When you let a good player walk, he has to be replaced. So yea, they saved money short term by letting Cofield/Joseph/Hankins walk, but had to spend draft picks to replace them which could’ve be used to improve other areas of the roster.
Additionally, not every replacement pick worked Austin and Bromley haven’t worked out. Plus whatever they saved by letting Cofield walk they gave right back to Canty plus some.
Ultimately, it comes down to a stale roster building philosophy.
Tell me in which area the Giants have been better over the past 5 years.
Defense - Steelers except last year ours was better.
OL - Steelers
TE - Steelers until this year.
RB - Steelers
WR - Steelers
Special teams - Steelers
QB - Even
TE has not been advantage steelers.
I don't know enough about their special teams to comment - do you have some statistics to make your case?
Steelers oline has been notoriously horrible until maybe this year. I say maybe this year because In games I've watched steelers Are giving up a lot of pressure ... Ben made plays at least Thursday (before last night Ben was not having a good year)... and he bought time with some mobility and somehow held onto balls on strip sack attempts that most including #10 fumble.
But then again it was only the terrible 6-3 titans. Kind of like above where the bengals are an easy joke every year ... even if statistically they are even with cowboys and eagles since 2005
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In comment 13694854 JonC said:
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Absolutely correct, imv. I haven't done a side by side comparison with Pitt, but it's clear the Giants drafting performance is falling short. When you factor in the high picks spent (and let go) at DT and Prince, those picks in particular really hurt the pipeline on defense.
Don't the Giants replace their free agents DT with low cost high quality draftees? The Giants made a conscious decision that they will let their high price DT walk in free agency and replace them with draftees. So far that strategy has worked. In recent years the Giants were not in a position to draft for depth because so many key players were lost to injury and had to be replaced. We can't dismiss the effects that injuries played on Giants drafts.
Huh? When you let a good player walk, he has to be replaced. So yea, they saved money short term by letting Cofield/Joseph/Hankins walk, but had to spend draft picks to replace them which could’ve be used to improve other areas of the roster.
Additionally, not every replacement pick worked Austin and Bromley haven’t worked out. Plus whatever they saved by letting Cofield walk they gave right back to Canty plus some.
Ultimately, it comes down to a stale roster building philosophy.
And in the case of Joseph, the Giants let him walk to Minnesota on a 5 year, $31 million deal with $12 million guaranteed...went two years where their interior defense was piss poor...and then decided to pay Snacks 5 years, $46 million with $24 million guaranteed.
Essentially they let Joseph walk and then (in guaranteed money) spent double the money to replace him.
Now, we can say that no one knew Joseph would turn out to be this good. But that is on the Giants for not getting him on the field enough prior to being a FA. Clearly the Vikings were willing to take that chance and were rewarded, while in that same offseason the Giants spent money on guys who if you look at the deals given now, did not provide a good return on investment.