around an aging quarterback and a clear example of how not to build around an gaining quarterback.
Both from the same draft class, both have won two Super Bowls (although Ben has one more SB appearance), yet Ben has had a consistent playoff team and consistent winner whereas Eli has been in one playoff game since winning Super Bowl 46.
Ben has a very good offensive line with a stud running back, a receiver comparable to OBJ in Antonio Brown(possibly better), has had and continues to have good tight ends. Eli has had OBJ but a terrible offensive line, nowhere near a stud running back and only this year does he have a tight end who scares people.
The results, I think, speak for themselves. Two flagship NFL franchises, one run properly, the other not so much. One aging quarterback who has consistently had a playoff shot and certainly seems to have a good shot at another Super Bowl this season. The other on a team that is a complete disaster.
For two organizations so closely aligned, including family ties, these two teams could not be more different.
i hope we now build from the trenches out.
If you said the reverse in the 80's, you'd make it look like the Steelers were dogshit.
It is like a broken fucking record that almost every post talks about the construction of the team being complete shit. We get it. But to keep trying to make it out like the Giants are an organizational nightmare and most other teams are pillars of excellent management reeks of anger at the results.
Both the Steelers and giants are in the upper eschelon of the NFL. Both in performance, in championships, and in the prudence their owners show in making personnel decisions. A bad year sucks. An extended period of inconsistent results pisses fans off, but basically it is just the 10,768th instance of bitching.
So the players, ownership, management and coaching sucks ass. We are years away from being a contender again. If you keep telling yourself (and unfortunately us too) that to lower expectations, fine. But is really is just a steaming pile of frustration.
Crawl back into your hole...
Exactly where am I posting that I know more than you, or are you just pissed because I pointed out the uselessness of the post?
One can agree that the results of the team have been disappointing and still not sound like a whiny cunt while doing it.
I think the OP really overestimates the TE "talent" - yes, Heath Miller was reliable (nothing sexy, but a reliable player) for years, but the last couple of years its been Jesse James. That's not better than what Eli's had with Shockey, healthy Ballard, Boss, Engram, etc.
He's had Brown and Bell (and obviously Hines Ward back in his prime). Martavis Bryant is JAG. Smith-Schuester looks terrific - but we're 10 games into his career. The talent around Ben hasnt been much better than Eli's throughout their careers.
Where the Steelers have been better - is they've fielded a consistently good defense over the years. Ours varies widely one year to the next.
There is validity to the argument that Pitt has hit on its priority positions: 3-4 LBs, RB and WR, while Reese has missed on his.
On the defensive side, a year ago their investments looked shrewd. Now, not so much.
Let’s not forget the coach. I know Tomlin isn’t perfect and I’m sure there are Steeler fans that don’t like him but he sure seems like a good coach to me. Has Tomlin had a 1-8 team at any point in his time with the Steelers?
I believe part of the problem with the offense is Eli s lack of mobility, but that doesn't change the fact that the o-line play has been bad.
the blame will fall on Reese. Two 1 s and a high 2 have not panned out as expected and he will pay with his job
As to the defense the argument that it's because of the offense never fit for me this season. They have been bad on their own
Similarly, there is nothing wrong with Eli's arm. He can still make all the throws and there is practically no tougher qb.
If there is a difference, it's that Pittsburgh's scouting has been very, very good. They draft well (Bell was a second rounder, Antonio Brown was a #6)and they find UDFA's. They keep the pipeline filled being able to replace stars like Hines Ward and Sanders. You give a team with a qb like Big Ben and a coach like Tomlin (who is on his way to Canton) a player pipeline like that and there will be consistent success (having the perennial doormat Browns in your division also helps). They aren't constructing a defense every year out of nothing.
The one thing that Pittsburgh does is they are constantly adding to the front 7 on defense. They have really good LB and with Tuitt and Hayward they have a great line. The secondary is pretty good but the front 7 makes them better.
Just like Bell makes the whole offense better. He forces the defense to respect the run in any formation and this opens up things in the passing game.
This my friends is called complimentary football ; )
they also have consistently decent coaching.
doesn't mean the Giants are the CLE Browns but they haven't done as good a job maximising the last few years of their franchise QB.
is this really a question?
Eli - Gallman, Darkwa
Rivers - Top 10 RB in Gordon
Big Ben - Top 3 RB in Bell
Brees - Ingram/Kamara (arguably best tandem)
Ryan - Freeman/Coleman (arguably best tandem)
Smith - Top rookie back in Hunt
Goff - Atguably Top 5 back in Gurley
Wentz - Addai, Blount
Prescott - Elliot
Newton - McCaffery and Stewart
Carr - Lynch
Look at the Jags. The only reason their offense isnt bottom 5 is because of Fournette.
One QB's RBs are different then the rest here guys. For all the talk about this being a passing league now, the best offenses have a special RB or 2 that make their offense go. Eli hasnt had anything CLOSE to the RB's I've listed above since 2012. Think about that.
On the defensive side, a year ago their inve
stments looked shrewd. Now, not so much.
+1.
I will add that Reeses 'actions' have been slow and as was mentioned 'reactionary'.
Drafting 1(one) OL higher than round 3(THREE) in 6 (six) seasons reflects lack of foresight...sucking at it made it worse.
And other than Goff...who was coming around until injury...and Sintim...who was a square peg for a round hole...We are STILL waiting for a LB drafted higher than round 3.
And buying a D speaks for itself.
Evaluation.
Drafting 1(one) OL higher than round 3(THREE) in 6 (six) seasons reflects lack of foresight...sucking at it made it worse.
2013 Rd 1 Pugh
2014 Rd 2 Richburg
2015 Rd 1 Flowers
Sucking perhaps, but 3 high draft picks out of last 6
I think the OP really overestimates the TE "talent" - yes, Heath Miller was reliable (nothing sexy, but a reliable player) for years, but the last couple of years its been Jesse James. That's not better than what Eli's had with Shockey, healthy Ballard, Boss, Engram, etc.
He's had Brown and Bell (and obviously Hines Ward back in his prime). Martavis Bryant is JAG. Smith-Schuester looks terrific - but we're 10 games into his career. The talent around Ben hasnt been much better than Eli's throughout their careers.
Where the Steelers have been better - is they've fielded a consistently good defense over the years. Ours varies widely one year to the next.
Other wide receivers Ben has had:
Plaxico Burress
Antwaan Randle-El
Santonio Holmes
Mike Wallace
Emmanuel Sanders
Not even close to being equal.
Amani Toomer
Steve Smith
Victor Cruz
Hakeem Nicks
Mario Manningham
Amani Toomer
Steve Smith
Victor Cruz
Hakeem Nicks
Mario Manningham
Don't forget Plaxico Burress
Re: Ben, he plays old. Doesn’t have the mobility anymore. Home road splits suck. Probably a week or two away from busting out the walking boot to milk the next faux injury.
One could make a case that it's not like Pittsburgh was a dominant team in any year that Ben/Tomlin has been there. In their best year, they barely squeaked by the 9-7 Cardinals to win a trophy.
Amani Toomer
Steve Smith
Victor Cruz
Hakeem Nicks
Mario Manningham
Problem for the Giants and Eli is most of his guys never could stay healthy.
This has been a great era of Giants football overall, though now it is collapsing, but there was a lot of wasted opportunity with how this franchise could not build a long term defense or o line after 2012.
Also, this tean has not had a starting RB since Jacob's and Bradshaw retired.
How is this possible?
This has been a great era of Giants football overall, though now it is collapsing, but there was a lot of wasted opportunity with how this franchise could not build a long term defense or o line after 2012.
Also, this tean has not had a starting RB since Jacob's and Bradshaw retired.
How is this possible?
IMO, I don't think this has been a relevant team since 2012. They've been, quite frankly, no more relevant than the Bears or Tampa. The talent is not there, save Odell. If not for him, this team and staff would have been blown up 2-3 years ago.
I couldn't disagree more with this. O'Hara was a pro bowl Center while here. Suebert was a VERY good LG. McKenzie was a rock at RT and played at a Pro Bowl level. Diehl was a solid LT. The line was probably the best Giants OL in its history.
If you said the reverse in the 80's, you'd make it look like the Steelers were dogshit.
It is like a broken fucking record that almost every post talks about the construction of the team being complete shit. We get it. But to keep trying to make it out like the Giants are an organizational nightmare and most other teams are pillars of excellent management reeks of anger at the results.
Both the Steelers and giants are in the upper eschelon of the NFL. Both in performance, in championships, and in the prudence their owners show in making personnel decisions. A bad year sucks. An extended period of inconsistent results pisses fans off, but basically it is just the 10,768th instance of bitching.
So the players, ownership, management and coaching sucks ass. We are years away from being a contender again. If you keep telling yourself (and unfortunately us too) that to lower expectations, fine. But is really is just a steaming pile of frustration.
I don't get your point? no one should whine and bitch on a fan forum when their team hasn't been a playoff team for 5 out of 6 years? Also are you trying to say that because Steelers sucked in the 80's its our turn to suck now and we should just accept it because we are an upper echelon team?
Quote:
Eli had:
Amani Toomer
Steve Smith
Victor Cruz
Hakeem Nicks
Mario Manningham
Problem for the Giants and Eli is most of his guys never could stay healthy.
Those guys were all healthy for at least the same duration as the players you listed above played for the Steelers (all in their rookie deals -- which back then it took a WR 3 years to get up to speed in the pros). Holmes - 4 yrs in Pitt. Burress - 4 years in Pitt. Randle-El 4 years. Wallace 4 yrs. Sanders 4 yrs.
by the way -- Randle-El? Are you serious with that? The guy never topped a 600 yard season. Might as well talk about Reuben Randle (a 2nd round pick) here.
I think most of us can be proud of Eli's tenure here without making up utter nonsense that he's never had a supporting cast here. He's had a little of 1st and 2nd round picks to throw to here for a decade now -- and for all the deserved crap Reese gets, we can all agree - he does at least know how to draft receivers.
You lose credibility with this. The line 2005-2010 was damn good. I'd put them up against any other line over that same time frame. For a couple years they were arguably the best.
You keep talking about the past decade. What about the past 5+ years? You know, when an older QB needs a supporting cast the most?
Similarly, there is nothing wrong with Eli's arm. He can still make all the throws and there is practically no tougher qb.
If there is a difference, it's that Pittsburgh's scouting has been very, very good. They draft well (Bell was a second rounder, Antonio Brown was a #6)and they find UDFA's. They keep the pipeline filled being able to replace stars like Hines Ward and Sanders. You give a team with a qb like Big Ben and a coach like Tomlin (who is on his way to Canton) a player pipeline like that and there will be consistent success (having the perennial doormat Browns in your division also helps). They aren't constructing a defense every year out of nothing.
+ 1 The most persuasive indictment of why Reese and crew need to be shown the door.
Quote:
In comment 13694720 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
Eli had:
Amani Toomer
Steve Smith
Victor Cruz
Hakeem Nicks
Mario Manningham
Problem for the Giants and Eli is most of his guys never could stay healthy.
Those guys were all healthy for at least the same duration as the players you listed above played for the Steelers (all in their rookie deals -- which back then it took a WR 3 years to get up to speed in the pros). Holmes - 4 yrs in Pitt. Burress - 4 years in Pitt. Randle-El 4 years. Wallace 4 yrs. Sanders 4 yrs.
by the way -- Randle-El? Are you serious with that? The guy never topped a 600 yard season. Might as well talk about Reuben Randle (a 2nd round pick) here.
I think most of us can be proud of Eli's tenure here without making up utter nonsense that he's never had a supporting cast here. He's had a little of 1st and 2nd round picks to throw to here for a decade now -- and for all the deserved crap Reese gets, we can all agree - he does at least know how to draft receivers.
Smith was here what, few years where he had both knees? Manningham wasn't anything outside NY. Cruz was great one year and was obviously better with a healthy Nicks. Nicks - who lasted wau shorter than you hoped. Again, no success outside.
As for Randle-Randle El. Randle El had good seasons outside Pitt. Why is that a negative? What's Randle done outside NY?
Ev
Every single WR was a starter outside Pittsburgh. The Giants WR's listed were more potential than success.
Steelers as Ben's career has advanced have put more resources into their offense and hoped the defense can be good enough to get by.
They appear to be good enough to beat every team in the NFL except for one who they lost to consistently. Right now, they are on pace to get their shot in a rematch, so we will see how it works out.
Looking at their cap hits for this season...of their top 12 cap hits in 2017, 5 of them are their starting offensive linemen, including 2 of them being paid over $11 million.
Of the starting 11 who played defense for the Steelers last night, their combined cap hit this season was only $23.4 million. Even if you add in the salary of the 3 regulars who were injured and didn't play (Mitchell, Gay, Haden), you only get to $37 million.
To put that in perspective, Vernon's cap hit for the Giants this season by himself is $16 million. Look at the rest of the defensive cap hits and the return on investment this year has been poor.
That tells me they are getting some good return on their defensive draft picks over the last few years.
This is what has KILLED the Giants in the 2nd half of Eli's career. The inability to draft enough quality cost-controlled players.
Steelers are paying Ben, Bell, Brown and their o-line good dollars. But that has been offset by the other guys. Giants have not had the same level of success with their players.
Posting from my phone.
The steelers OL is comprised of 2 1st rd picks C M. Pouncey and G David DeCastro (both of whom have injury histories), a 2nd rd. pick in Marcus Gilbert (who has been up and down), undrafted free agent Roman Foster and Alejandro Villanueva (who they guessed on and got right). Then they drafted LeVeon Bell in the 2nd rd in 2013.
The Giants constructed their line very similarly - 2 1st rounders in Pugh and Flowers, 1 2nd rounder in Richburg and tried to get lucky with Hart a 6th rd. pick.
The Giants also drafted David Wilson in the 1st round of the 2012 draft.
Some of it was missing the mark - some was bad luck - but I agree that the results have been more positive for Steelers than the Giants overall...but I think they mirrored each other in how they tried to build their rosters.
coaching Mike Tomlin has NEVER had a losing record at Pittsburgh