We have had the discussions about how the NFL has taken a hit and the ratings are suffering which in turn means less revenue.
The number of commercials and the other activities that I see now from the NFL in support of the military is overwhelming. It is obvious that they are trying to win some of their fan base back.
My wife, who never watches any games only catches a glimpse as she walks through the room with the game on.... she even noticed in the little exposure that she has to it.
If the NFL is amping up the patriotism, it's for money.
How the Pentagon Paid for NFL Displays of Patriotism - ( New Window )
The NFL-military relationship has always been a symbiotic one. But the anthem has always been tied to football as long as I can remember... even at the high school and collegiate level.
The NFL-military relationship has always been a symbiotic one. But the anthem has always been tied to football as long as I can remember... even at the high school and collegiate level.
I saw Tiki talking about this one his radio/tv show and he said that when he played many if not most of the time they didn't even come out of the locker room until after the Anthem was sung. He said they would come out for warm up and then go back in again until game time.
I've even give you a more memorable example... Whitney Houston at Super Bowl XXV. Giants were out there. We all remember it.
Perhaps there's some middle ground here in acknowledging that not everyone care as much as you or some other public officials sounding off for political expediency and it's okay. Hannibal isn't going to storm the gates. The world will not collapse.
And the NFL will suffer because of it.
I've even give you a more memorable example... Whitney Houston at Super Bowl XXV. Giants were out there. We all remember it.
I don't think he was talking about the SB, And I don't think he meant it never happened but he clearly said they weren't expected to as they are now and that often they weren't out of the locker room when it was sung. He said something along the lines of that he could hardly remember it being a thing back then.
There is a great shot in the '84 tape of LT standing for the anthem with a kids in the stands behind him standing with his jersey on.
I don't go to many games, but the ones I've gone to, the players stand for the anthem.
That article is simply false.
The national anthem is about respecting the country. That can include the soldiers, but is not limited to it.
This is a great country. The most racially diverse and racially tolerant one in the history of the world. I'm sorry you can't see that.
And I believe he criticized Kaepernick about not standing so it's not like he is supporting the idea. He was just almost acting like when did this even become of thing?(they being required to be out there)"we didn't, we were usually still inside" (my paraphrase)
And the NFL will suffer because of it.
Steroids. Physical and sexual abuse of women. Overpaid man children. Greedy owners who move their teams from loyal fan bases and hold municipalities hostage for stadium deals. Dog fights. Etc.
All of that is cool. But you're standing your ground over the national anthem.
Interesting.
Quote:
that during the Super Bowl 25 anthem, he and a few of his teammates were commenting on how hot Whitney Houston was. Let's not pretend the players are standing there reflecting on the sacrifices of soldiers.
The national anthem is about respecting the country. That can include the soldiers, but is not limited to it.
This is a great country. The most racially diverse and racially tolerant one in the history of the world. I'm sorry you can't see that.
That's like...your opinion man. This country has failed many people. It still is and that bothers people. I'm sorry you can't see it.
And yet, you watched today's game. You did. It's okay.
Every country has issues, but I thank God every day that I was fortunate enough to be born an American. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
There are many factors in that...quality of the game has deteriorated, over-saturation, new CBA, rule changes, too many commercials. But mixing politics with sports was stupid. The NFL doesn't know its audience or chose to ignore it. The NFL could have easily avoided this whole thing. You see the same thing with ESPN, who is now set for another round of layoffs.
Regardless, if people believe there is systemic oppression, that does not give one the right to disrupt their place of employment. If I did that, my employer would fire me.
Want to fight oppression? There are infinitely better ways than kneeling during a national anthem. In fact, I would argue that is a lazy tactic. It requires no effort. Put your time and money where your heart is and get involved to enact real - not symbolic - change.
The NFL-military relationship has always been a symbiotic one. But the anthem has always been tied to football as long as I can remember... even at the high school and collegiate level.
Their form of protest may seem lazy, but it cost Kaepernick his career and reputation. Many of these players - including Kaep - do plenty in their communities, but they can shine a much brighter spotlight on this at 1 p.m. on Sunday than they can on Tuesday afternoon at the Boys and Girls Club.
Every country has issues, but I thank God every day that I was fortunate enough to be born an American. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
I'm well aware how fucked up other countries are. My family fled the CCCP in '79 and nearly three decades after the supposed perestroika, little has changed there. The day my family and I became naturalized citizens was probably the proudest day of my life.
You grew up here and the anthem and stars and stripes are a source of pride. That's great. For those of us who were born under religious, cultural, lingual, ethnic oppression under the banner of hammer and sickle, symbols don't mean a great deal.
The source of America's power isn't the flag. It's the Constitution - and specifically individual protections assured under the Bill of Rights. It's fluid and not static. You don't like the law your congress just passed? Go protest. Go try that in Moscow and you'll be joining the half dozen opposition party leaders Putin has locked up in the past 15 years. That's the best case scenario.
There are some similarities in what I've described above and the rhetoric from some elected official(s). Already we've seen the comingling of US political operatives and foreign provocateurs. We've seen the blurring of lines between branches of government. This has always happened to an extent, to be sure, but never this blatant. The final price would be an attack and dismantling of the free press. This has not happened but, once again, You be heard the rhetoric blowing that way for years.
Finally, many would argue that while no country is perfect - as you've said above - it's our obligation to seek to improve the lives of our citizens. All citizens. Acknowledging that systemic problems exist in the judicial system isn't enough. Knowing that middle class wages are stagnant while the income gap grows exponentially isn't enough. We witness what's seemingly become weekly events in our back yards where thousands our own citizens and children are gunned down indiscriminately. We mourn for a few days, are fed some talking points from a prominent lobby group via a congressional proxy and we move on.
Millions of Americans feel this isn't good enough and while you may not agree with the chosen form of protest, and are surely free to protest on your own, please don't conflate our ideas and values. Certainly don't patronize us by offering us a lecture on how much better the US is. Quite honestly, you wouldn't know. For all of our successes, there are countries to do some things better. Rather than take a pigheaded and ultra nationalist and protectionist POV, I think we'd be better served to be pragmatists rather than ideologues.
Sometimes the people at the top need to be protected from themselves.
Quote:
And yet, people from all over the world, from every ethnic, social, political, and economic background want to come HERE. Where people can rise to heights in every corner of our society based on their ability.
Every country has issues, but I thank God every day that I was fortunate enough to be born an American. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
I'm well aware how fucked up other countries are. My family fled the CCCP in '79 and nearly three decades after the supposed perestroika, little has changed there. The day my family and I became naturalized citizens was probably the proudest day of my life.
You grew up here and the anthem and stars and stripes are a source of pride. That's great. For those of us who were born under religious, cultural, lingual, ethnic oppression under the banner of hammer and sickle, symbols don't mean a great deal.
The source of America's power isn't the flag. It's the Constitution - and specifically individual protections assured under the Bill of Rights. It's fluid and not static. You don't like the law your congress just passed? Go protest. Go try that in Moscow and you'll be joining the half dozen opposition party leaders Putin has locked up in the past 15 years. That's the best case scenario.
There are some similarities in what I've described above and the rhetoric from some elected official(s). Already we've seen the comingling of US political operatives and foreign provocateurs. We've seen the blurring of lines between branches of government. This has always happened to an extent, to be sure, but never this blatant. The final price would be an attack and dismantling of the free press. This has not happened but, once again, You be heard the rhetoric blowing that way for years.
Finally, many would argue that while no country is perfect - as you've said above - it's our obligation to seek to improve the lives of our citizens. All citizens. Acknowledging that systemic problems exist in the judicial system isn't enough. Knowing that middle class wages are stagnant while the income gap grows exponentially isn't enough. We witness what's seemingly become weekly events in our back yards where thousands our own citizens and children are gunned down indiscriminately. We mourn for a few days, are fed some talking points from a prominent lobby group via a congressional proxy and we move on.
Millions of Americans feel this isn't good enough and while you may not agree with the chosen form of protest, and are surely free to protest on your own, please don't conflate our ideas and values. Certainly don't patronize us by offering us a lecture on how much better the US is. Quite honestly, you wouldn't know. For all of our successes, there are countries to do some things better. Rather than take a pigheaded and ultra nationalist and protectionist POV, I think we'd be better served to be pragmatists rather than ideologues.
The one thin from your post that I would keep my eyes on, is the free press. One could make a strong argument that we are headed down the path of destroying the free press. Constant "fake news"comments, coupled with limiting press access in the White House could be the first steps.
While I do not agree with the political grandstanding of Kneeling , maybe the players should realize that the point has been made and move on to a dialoge of their greviences.
While I do not agree with the political grandstanding of Kneeling , maybe the players should realize that the point has been made and move on to a dialoge of their greviences.
Or maybe not. It's their protest not yours. Up to them to decide when it's over.
Quote:
For just one minute we can all stand together , despite Political or cultural differences that we are all Americans.
While I do not agree with the political grandstanding of Kneeling , maybe the players should realize that the point has been made and move on to a dialoge of their greviences.
Or maybe not. It's their protest not yours. Up to them to decide when it's over.
And the grievances are cultural, not against NFL
Talking isn't the point. It's constantly making people uncomfortable and putting this in the limelight that motivates the kneelers (from what I understand). Seems to be working. Why should they stop now?
Quote:
that during the Super Bowl 25 anthem, he and a few of his teammates were commenting on how hot Whitney Houston was. Let's not pretend the players are standing there reflecting on the sacrifices of soldiers.
The national anthem is about respecting the country. That can include the soldiers, but is not limited to it.
This is a great country. The most racially diverse and racially tolerant one in the history of the world. I'm sorry you can't see that.
Racially tolerant? Must be nice to live in that world. That's not reality for a lot of Americans.
Even Rome was more racially tolerant.
So, this is about league revenue, the brand, what has happened to it and the leagues' reaction in the form of those ads.
What I can promise you is this. If the ratings and ad revenues continue to suffer, the lost revenue will impact the next round of CBA discussions, the salary cap, etc.
You would also have to believe that the networks themselves who reaped the benefit from short term ratings spikes at the beginning of each game are also seeing the impact. Makes me wonder whether the local producers of each game for the networks have been told to stop focusing on this so much and for the commentators to stick to football.
Beast Mode is an asshole , God bless him. The Giants have one kneeler left , whose mother is a Swiss national , God bless him. Thr Knicks 20-million-dollar-a year, - third-string center wouldn't eat with the cadets at West Point God bless him. A dirt bag like Steve Nash turned his back on the flag for NBA anthems , dishonoribg our country . A Canadian who made tens of millions of dollars in this country, whose military protects both his country and ours . God bless him. God bless them all that they could live and work in this country .
And for the thread starter, the Giants have been on the field and standing for the anthem since the 80s. But I went to the Stadium, Yale Bowl and Shea when they did not. They remained inside the locker room or tunnel.
However, many like Eric cannot get past the optic of men not standing for the flag.
My father is a WWII vet who fought in the Pacific, and honestly, the protest rubs me the wrong way even though I believe the players who State they are not trying to disrespect the military.
But the protest forum is misguided and is hurting the product. No employee has the right to do that to their employer without suffering consequences.
Let s see how players react when the protest begins to impact their personal finances.
Quote:
And yet, people from all over the world, from every ethnic, social, political, and economic background want to come HERE. Where people can rise to heights in every corner of our society based on their ability.
Every country has issues, but I thank God every day that I was fortunate enough to be born an American. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
I'm well aware how fucked up other countries are. My family fled the CCCP in '79 and nearly three decades after the supposed perestroika, little has changed there. The day my family and I became naturalized citizens was probably the proudest day of my life.
You grew up here and the anthem and stars and stripes are a source of pride. That's great. For those of us who were born under religious, cultural, lingual, ethnic oppression under the banner of hammer and sickle, symbols don't mean a great deal.
The source of America's power isn't the flag. It's the Constitution - and specifically individual protections assured under the Bill of Rights. It's fluid and not static. You don't like the law your congress just passed? Go protest. Go try that in Moscow and you'll be joining the half dozen opposition party leaders Putin has locked up in the past 15 years. That's the best case scenario.
There are some similarities in what I've described above and the rhetoric from some elected official(s). Already we've seen the comingling of US political operatives and foreign provocateurs. We've seen the blurring of lines between branches of government. This has always happened to an extent, to be sure, but never this blatant. The final price would be an attack and dismantling of the free press. This has not happened but, once again, You be heard the rhetoric blowing that way for years.
Finally, many would argue that while no country is perfect - as you've said above - it's our obligation to seek to improve the lives of our citizens. All citizens. Acknowledging that systemic problems exist in the judicial system isn't enough. Knowing that middle class wages are stagnant while the income gap grows exponentially isn't enough. We witness what's seemingly become weekly events in our back yards where thousands our own citizens and children are gunned down indiscriminately. We mourn for a few days, are fed some talking points from a prominent lobby group via a congressional proxy and we move on.
Millions of Americans feel this isn't good enough and while you may not agree with the chosen form of protest, and are surely free to protest on your own, please don't conflate our ideas and values. Certainly don't patronize us by offering us a lecture on how much better the US is. Quite honestly, you wouldn't know. For all of our successes, there are countries to do some things better. Rather than take a pigheaded and ultra nationalist and protectionist POV, I think we'd be better served to be pragmatists rather than ideologues.
TIL.....the Bill of Rights is fluid.
Quote:
In comment 13698584 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
And yet, people from all over the world, from every ethnic, social, political, and economic background want to come HERE. Where people can rise to heights in every corner of our society based on their ability.
Every country has issues, but I thank God every day that I was fortunate enough to be born an American. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
I'm well aware how fucked up other countries are. My family fled the CCCP in '79 and nearly three decades after the supposed perestroika, little has changed there. The day my family and I became naturalized citizens was probably the proudest day of my life.
You grew up here and the anthem and stars and stripes are a source of pride. That's great. For those of us who were born under religious, cultural, lingual, ethnic oppression under the banner of hammer and sickle, symbols don't mean a great deal.
The source of America's power isn't the flag. It's the Constitution - and specifically individual protections assured under the Bill of Rights. It's fluid and not static. You don't like the law your congress just passed? Go protest. Go try that in Moscow and you'll be joining the half dozen opposition party leaders Putin has locked up in the past 15 years. That's the best case scenario.
There are some similarities in what I've described above and the rhetoric from some elected official(s). Already we've seen the comingling of US political operatives and foreign provocateurs. We've seen the blurring of lines between branches of government. This has always happened to an extent, to be sure, but never this blatant. The final price would be an attack and dismantling of the free press. This has not happened but, once again, You be heard the rhetoric blowing that way for years.
Finally, many would argue that while no country is perfect - as you've said above - it's our obligation to seek to improve the lives of our citizens. All citizens. Acknowledging that systemic problems exist in the judicial system isn't enough. Knowing that middle class wages are stagnant while the income gap grows exponentially isn't enough. We witness what's seemingly become weekly events in our back yards where thousands our own citizens and children are gunned down indiscriminately. We mourn for a few days, are fed some talking points from a prominent lobby group via a congressional proxy and we move on.
Millions of Americans feel this isn't good enough and while you may not agree with the chosen form of protest, and are surely free to protest on your own, please don't conflate our ideas and values. Certainly don't patronize us by offering us a lecture on how much better the US is. Quite honestly, you wouldn't know. For all of our successes, there are countries to do some things better. Rather than take a pigheaded and ultra nationalist and protectionist POV, I think we'd be better served to be pragmatists rather than ideologues.
TIL.....the Bill of Rights is fluid.
It's been changed 17 times. Fluid.
Not to be confused with the types of fluids you're familiar with during your travels and exploits in the Midwest.
It's the salute to service month. They have it every year so they can sell NFL gear in camo
It's the salute to service month. They have it every year so they can sell NFL gear in camo colorways
How would we feel if one of the USA athletes who won gold knelt, sat or just didn't stand on the podium?
This issue matters greatly to me because when I look at the rest of the world for the most part, I am so glad to be an American!
This is a temper tantrum by over-indulged millionaires who don't appreciate where the butter for their bread comes from....
Best thing they can do is fire Goodell and show Joe Lockhart the door. Not a Jerry fan, but somebody has to be the bad guy and he fits the role.
I guess it depends on your perspective. In some parts of the country, especially the South, some could argue racism is alive and well. In other areas such as the DC or NY area, there is much diversity and relative racial harmony.
To say blacks are oppressed in this country is not truly accurate. Blacks have the same rights whites do. There are laws in place to make sure blacks have the same opportunities (affirmative action, Rooney Rule, etc). Some argue that these laws do more damage by creating resentment, but they also make sure that opportunities are given. African Americans have been CEOs, Movie stars, athletes, judges, lawyers, military generals, senators, congressmen, even the President.
Yes, there are still ignorant asses in this country who can't see past skin color. There is in inherent racism in many people that won't be shaken out. But there are also millions of people who don't see skin color and who see every man as equal.
I don't agree with the protests because 1) I think many are doing it to be "trendy" now, especially when they happen at the college and even high school level.
2) Have they really accomplished anything other than create more resentment?
3) I don't know the answer to this but how many of these guys who are protesting have actually stepped up to improve relations in their communities? If the majority have then hats off. If they haven't then the protest means squat.
We may not achieve the level of racial harmony we need in this country anytime soon but through educating our kids to be tolerant, loving caring individuals we can help the next generation get off on the right foot. This country is still light years ahead of the majority of the world when it comes to equal rights.
You're funny. If it fits your world view, you get very hard-headed. Its always about the money. NFL wants to make money. As much money as possible. So what? Exploiting a common cause can be a win-win. But to say its not about the money.....
Film at 11...
How would we feel if one of the USA athletes who won gold knelt, sat or just didn't stand on the podium?
This issue matters greatly to me because when I look at the rest of the world for the most part, I am so glad to be an American!
Same here! This is a great country!
Love it - ( New Window )
This is a temper tantrum by over-indulged millionaires who don't appreciate where the butter for their bread comes from....
Ah, that "ungrateful" canard. Which only seems to apply to black people.
Here is another cliche that may work better, "don't judge a man until you walk a mile in his shoes".
And, Eric, you can't see that this is how the site's been run these last few years?
If folks think this is overly political, I will delete. I thought this was one of those gray area football/socio-political topics that we've kept up as long as it doesn't get into slamming party politics. If this is offensive to some I will delete.
*******
We're all pissing into the wind at this point. No one is going to change anyone's views on this issue by venting their opinion on it.
One side views this as "forced patriotism" - an offensive expression in and of itself. People around the world still stand for their national anthem. They do at football games in England. They do so for soccer games around the world. They do so for hockey north of the border. It's a sign of respect for the country in which one lives. Its not about race, sexual orientation, the military, or anything else. Its simply about respect for how far weve come as a nation and for what it took, on all our parts, to get us here.
I think the controversy has actually helped in some ways. My son goes to a very racially diverse high school. When this controversy blew up again, the color guard came out with the flag, you could have heard a pin drop. It was dead silent. When the marching band played the national anthem, everyone in the stands, including all of the students sang the anthem. I never in my life heard that happen before - everyone was singing. People had tears in their eyes and posted about this experience on school websites. It was similar to how I felt after the first time I heard the national anthem at an event after 9/11.
To some people, the United States is filled with the worst kind of people society has to offer. While I dont question that those people, unfortunately, exist, I choose to see the other side. The more prevalent side. The side where an African American man was twice elected to be the leader of the free world. I choose to see a nation built from people of all backgrounds coming together and making this the only place on Earth where someone can come with nothing in their pocket and make something of themselves. And in a era of global people movement, I don't see people fleeing the U.S. to move to other countries.
So for me, this only boils down to one thing, and thats having respect for your house. You may disagree with your family, sometimes vehemently, but you respect your house.
I had season tickets until I moved to the South in 1994. There were games where neither team would be on the sideline and it would just be a singer or a band playing the song.
That changed over the years where they would wait until both teams were on the sideline and every now and then you'd get the field-sized flag pulled across or a flyover of jets, but I got the impression, the anthem was there for the fans sake instead of the players.
This idea that players have always stood at attention hanging on every word of the Anthem is a myth and a poorly constructed one, trying to intimate that back then everything stopped for the minute the song lasted.
So pathetic.
And the ratings aren't down because of this issue. Sucking up to the military won't reverse the downward trend. All of us who see the real issues with the NFL will be proven right about that.
Because he sucks at them?
Exactly. He thanks God every day for being born in America. But he conveniently leaves out the being white part.
Some people will never get it.
they cannot force the players to stand and they cannot even really (as a league) say anything negative about the protests or they alienate their players.
now they try and lessen the offense some people may feel about the players chosen method of protest and it's viewed as transparent ploy at protecting their name/image.
damned if you do, damned if you don't.
as for the rest of the thread, just a little mircocosm of the country, no one cares about why anyone else feels they way they do, they just want to piss on it because they feel like they way they feel is the only possible right way to feel. everyone else is Hitler or a libtard.
This is a temper tantrum by over-indulged millionaires who don't appreciate where the butter for their bread comes from....
Neat little trick you have there. What am I am thinking right now, Mr. Kreskin?
How about a little thought experiment? If it were Eli Manning, Tom Brady and Philip Rivers kneeling for the national anthem to protest overtaxation, would they still be as ill-informed or unwilling to great change through traditional means? Or would they still be ungrateful and unpatriotic millionaire who don't appreciate where their bread is buttered?
I suspect many of the same people here who are upset would support them in their cause.
And being able to burn it is what makes the American experience truly exceptional.
I think we lose sight of the fact that they are symbols of all Americans....and the incredibly diverse nation we have. And of the rights, freedoms and obligations we have as citizens.
Politicizing symbolic patriotism has a long and dark history.
It might be a good time to remember Johnson's quote: "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."
It's a lazy way to protest, you don't really mean it, and you're not accomplishing anything, so shut up. Putting their jobs at risk and potentially millions of dollars isn't lazy. When's the last time you risked your career over a cause you believed in? It isn't a free speech issue. The NFL at any time could require that players stand but I imagine they don't want to fight that battle.
It's disrespectful to the greatest country on earth! People come here because it's better than their shitty country/circumstances, so shut up. It was a great country before sufferage. It was a great country during Jim Crow. People speaking out and protesting about these issues made it even better. Why we would ever stop trying to make our world better is beyond me.
If I made such a spectacle at my company, I'd be fired. And if my uncle had tits, he'd be my aunt.
It all pretty much seems to boil down to the same thing: You can protest, but do it in a way that I don't have to hear about it.
I think many of the folks kneeling for the anthem are misguided and misinformed about much of the issues they are concerned about, and I'm pretty sure that I would agree with them on what the proper "fix" is for the current problems we are experiencing- but I commend them for taking a stand and generating all of this talk/controversy...it's how change begins.
But as is too often the case - it is used to further partisan beliefs.
It is nice to know that one can demonstrate without being shot by a military sniper looking to keep people in line. Of course, I guess character assassination is a different thing altogether....
Quote:
And yet, people from all over the world, from every ethnic, social, political, and economic background want to come HERE. Where people can rise to heights in every corner of our society based on their ability.
Every country has issues, but I thank God every day that I was fortunate enough to be born an American. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
I'm well aware how fucked up other countries are. My family fled the CCCP in '79 and nearly three decades after the supposed perestroika, little has changed there. The day my family and I became naturalized citizens was probably the proudest day of my life.
You grew up here and the anthem and stars and stripes are a source of pride. That's great. For those of us who were born under religious, cultural, lingual, ethnic oppression under the banner of hammer and sickle, symbols don't mean a great deal.
The source of America's power isn't the flag. It's the Constitution - and specifically individual protections assured under the Bill of Rights. It's fluid and not static. You don't like the law your congress just passed? Go protest. Go try that in Moscow and you'll be joining the half dozen opposition party leaders Putin has locked up in the past 15 years. That's the best case scenario.
There are some similarities in what I've described above and the rhetoric from some elected official(s). Already we've seen the comingling of US political operatives and foreign provocateurs. We've seen the blurring of lines between branches of government. This has always happened to an extent, to be sure, but never this blatant. The final price would be an attack and dismantling of the free press. This has not happened but, once again, You be heard the rhetoric blowing that way for years.
Finally, many would argue that while no country is perfect - as you've said above - it's our obligation to seek to improve the lives of our citizens. All citizens. Acknowledging that systemic problems exist in the judicial system isn't enough. Knowing that middle class wages are stagnant while the income gap grows exponentially isn't enough. We witness what's seemingly become weekly events in our back yards where thousands our own citizens and children are gunned down indiscriminately. We mourn for a few days, are fed some talking points from a prominent lobby group via a congressional proxy and we move on.
Millions of Americans feel this isn't good enough and while you may not agree with the chosen form of protest, and are surely free to protest on your own, please don't conflate our ideas and values. Certainly don't patronize us by offering us a lecture on how much better the US is. Quite honestly, you wouldn't know. For all of our successes, there are countries to do some things better. Rather than take a pigheaded and ultra nationalist and protectionist POV, I think we'd be better served to be pragmatists rather than ideologues.
"...the Constitution - and specifically individual protections assured under the Bill of Rights. It's fluid and not static".
The Constitution is hardly "fluid". It means what it says. There are ways to change it (see Article V).
The nation started imperfectly (like most nations) but it was our Constitution that was the basis for correcting wrongs to minorities and women; and will be the basis for the remedy for any current injustices.
And I'm not trying to get this thread deleted either. Instead, I'd love it if BBI could give some threads life that can inform all of us, even if they veer toward the political at times. We cannot discuss almost anything of real importance here without it having some associated political themes. But those threads can be gold, despite a few assholes who can't do without name-calling. So, my philosophy would be to screw the assholes but keep the gold.
Yours seems to be to delete threads that could be controversial, except in those instances where you have something to say about the topic.
[quote] In comment 13698670 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
Is giving hot takes on black people not being oppressed in this country based on a few anecdotal experiences. Some people are really oblivious.
Exactly. He thanks God every day for being born in America. But he conveniently leaves out the being white part.
Some people will never get it.
+1
if the cost of freedom includes white guys walking around with 20 automatic guns why can't it also include black NFL players kneeling to protest police brutality during the playing of the national anthem?
[quote] In comment 13698670 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
Is giving hot takes on black people not being oppressed in this country based on a few anecdotal experiences. Some people are really oblivious.
Exactly. He thanks God every day for being born in America. But he conveniently leaves out the being white part.
Some people will never get it.
+1
if the cost of freedom includes white guys walking around with 20 automatic guns why can't it also include black NFL players kneeling to protest police brutality during the playing of the national anthem?
the 2nd amendment is color blind and automatic weapons are illegal, keep your ignorant memes on facebook
That being said, the I have a black nephew anecdote is one of the oldest tricks in the book ... and just incredibly naive. Its a sad look for you.
The one thing I think we've tried to be consistent at recently is that once posts or posters get particularly politically partisan (i.e., naming or slamming parties, politicians, policies), that's the red line. The threads that I recall being deleted are the ones that got into that territory.
As Ray in Arlington mentioned to me several weeks ago, he said, "I'm not sure how you deal with this now that politics and the NFL have become intertwined."
It's a minefield. I think we've allowed these type of threads to continue as long as they didn't violate what I mentioned above. There have been quite a few threads in recent weeks on NFL ratings.
One could argue that we only support diversity of identity, not diversity of thought.
#comeatmebro
It's a lazy way to protest, you don't really mean it, and you're not accomplishing anything, so shut up. Putting their jobs at risk and potentially millions of dollars isn't lazy. When's the last time you risked your career over a cause you believed in? It isn't a free speech issue. The NFL at any time could require that players stand but I imagine they don't want to fight that battle.
It's disrespectful to the greatest country on earth! People come here because it's better than their shitty country/circumstances, so shut up. It was a great country before sufferage. It was a great country during Jim Crow. People speaking out and protesting about these issues made it even better. Why we would ever stop trying to make our world better is beyond me.
If I made such a spectacle at my company, I'd be fired. And if my uncle had tits, he'd be my aunt.
It all pretty much seems to boil down to the same thing: You can protest, but do it in a way that I don't have to hear about it.
I think many of the folks kneeling for the anthem are misguided and misinformed about much of the issues they are concerned about, and I'm pretty sure that I would agree with them on what the proper "fix" is for the current problems we are experiencing- but I commend them for taking a stand and generating all of this talk/controversy...it's how change begins.
Cam!!!
Where have you been all this time?
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In comment 13698584 Eric from BBI said:
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And yet, people from all over the world, from every ethnic, social, political, and economic background want to come HERE. Where people can rise to heights in every corner of our society based on their ability.
Every country has issues, but I thank God every day that I was fortunate enough to be born an American. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
I'm well aware how fucked up other countries are. My family fled the CCCP in '79 and nearly three decades after the supposed perestroika, little has changed there. The day my family and I became naturalized citizens was probably the proudest day of my life.
You grew up here and the anthem and stars and stripes are a source of pride. That's great. For those of us who were born under religious, cultural, lingual, ethnic oppression under the banner of hammer and sickle, symbols don't mean a great deal.
The source of America's power isn't the flag. It's the Constitution - and specifically individual protections assured under the Bill of Rights. It's fluid and not static. You don't like the law your congress just passed? Go protest. Go try that in Moscow and you'll be joining the half dozen opposition party leaders Putin has locked up in the past 15 years. That's the best case scenario.
There are some similarities in what I've described above and the rhetoric from some elected official(s). Already we've seen the comingling of US political operatives and foreign provocateurs. We've seen the blurring of lines between branches of government. This has always happened to an extent, to be sure, but never this blatant. The final price would be an attack and dismantling of the free press. This has not happened but, once again, You be heard the rhetoric blowing that way for years.
Finally, many would argue that while no country is perfect - as you've said above - it's our obligation to seek to improve the lives of our citizens. All citizens. Acknowledging that systemic problems exist in the judicial system isn't enough. Knowing that middle class wages are stagnant while the income gap grows exponentially isn't enough. We witness what's seemingly become weekly events in our back yards where thousands our own citizens and children are gunned down indiscriminately. We mourn for a few days, are fed some talking points from a prominent lobby group via a congressional proxy and we move on.
Millions of Americans feel this isn't good enough and while you may not agree with the chosen form of protest, and are surely free to protest on your own, please don't conflate our ideas and values. Certainly don't patronize us by offering us a lecture on how much better the US is. Quite honestly, you wouldn't know. For all of our successes, there are countries to do some things better. Rather than take a pigheaded and ultra nationalist and protectionist POV, I think we'd be better served to be pragmatists rather than ideologues.
"...the Constitution - and specifically individual protections assured under the Bill of Rights. It's fluid and not static".
The Constitution is hardly "fluid". It means what it says. There are ways to change it (see Article V).
The nation started imperfectly (like most nations) but it was our Constitution that was the basis for correcting wrongs to minorities and women; and will be the basis for the remedy for any current injustices.
Thank you for articulating it better than I could. The point still stands.
Every country has issues, but I thank God every day that I was fortunate enough to be born an American. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
Universities are seeing a dramatic drop in foreign exchange students and admits, so this unfortunately is changing (after consistent rises for 40+ years)
It's true they have always stood, as Eric has pointed out. I've been to games before 2009, and NFL Films has always used players standing in their highlight reels.
But on national TV games before 2009 - specifically MNF games - players didn't necessarily stand because of some sort of timing issue with the game starting on time.
Also - I am very confused that such a small portion of the players - 2% - not standing could cause so much angst.
With all the other issues surrounding the NFL and it's players....there are plenty of other reasons to be disengaged with the game.
It's true they have always stood, as Eric has pointed out. I've been to games before 2009, and NFL Films has always used players standing in their highlight reels.
But on national TV games before 2009 - specifically MNF games - players didn't necessarily stand because of some sort of timing issue with the game starting on time.
Also - I am very confused that such a small portion of the players - 2% - not standing could cause so much angst.
With all the other issues surrounding the NFL and it's players....there are plenty of other reasons to be disengaged with the game.
I posed the very same issue to Eric earlier in the thread about there being a middle ground.
His response was something you'd expect from Winston Churchill during the Battle of Britain.
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for the Anthem.
It's true they have always stood, as Eric has pointed out. I've been to games before 2009, and NFL Films has always used players standing in their highlight reels.
But on national TV games before 2009 - specifically MNF games - players didn't necessarily stand because of some sort of timing issue with the game starting on time.
Also - I am very confused that such a small portion of the players - 2% - not standing could cause so much angst.
With all the other issues surrounding the NFL and it's players....there are plenty of other reasons to be disengaged with the game.
I posed the very same issue to Eric earlier in the thread about there being a middle ground.
His response was something you'd expect from Winston Churchill during the Battle of Britain.
If the players started doing some sort of protest during the game - the part you actually watch - they I think there's a problem that has to be corrected.
And there is precedence during the game - everyone remember Jim McMahon and his headbands?
Before the game? Is it really that big a deal? For about 15 players in the entire league? And where most of those 15 actually are doing stuff in their community as well?
Huge drop in foreign exchange students - ( New Window )
There are many factors in that...quality of the game has deteriorated, over-saturation, new CBA, rule changes, too many commercials. But mixing politics with sports was stupid. The NFL doesn't know its audience or chose to ignore it. The NFL could have easily avoided this whole thing. You see the same thing with ESPN, who is now set for another round of layoffs.
I disagree that the NFL could have avoided this........as PJ said in an earlier post, the NFL could have seriously driven a wedge between the players and owners/teams by requiring them to stand.
And there's also the whole CBA which probably would have brought about a lawsuit.
I actually think Goodel played it about as well as he could have.
So when you talk about the NFL taking a hit due to upset customers choosing to die on the national anthem hill, keep in mind our economy also takes hits from foreigners with money to spend choosing not to live and visit because of those people who want to die on the national anthem hill
Tourism taking a hit - ( New Window )
But for years the NFL could pretty much do/charge anything it wanted. PSL's subscriptions to Sunday Ticket , season tickets where the pre/season games cost as much as the regular season games and were rising meteorically and were required purchases and they STILL sold out.
CTE, the PSL's salaries not just for the players but everyone involved in the NFL (I'm thinking Goodell)and the commercials on tv to fund these are real problems facing the NFL now, all at once too.Throw the kneeling/America issue into this and people are finally saying fuck it and fuck this. I think the NFL needs to really refocus itself, there is no quick fix for this and if they don't rework this we may see the demise of the sport we all love so much.
+1
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You're ungrateful, you don't know how good you have it, so shut up. It's possible to recognize that you are living a charmed life, but still want to do something to improve it for yourself and others...that's what successful people do, keep working to improve.
It's a lazy way to protest, you don't really mean it, and you're not accomplishing anything, so shut up. Putting their jobs at risk and potentially millions of dollars isn't lazy. When's the last time you risked your career over a cause you believed in? It isn't a free speech issue. The NFL at any time could require that players stand but I imagine they don't want to fight that battle.
It's disrespectful to the greatest country on earth! People come here because it's better than their shitty country/circumstances, so shut up. It was a great country before sufferage. It was a great country during Jim Crow. People speaking out and protesting about these issues made it even better. Why we would ever stop trying to make our world better is beyond me.
If I made such a spectacle at my company, I'd be fired. And if my uncle had tits, he'd be my aunt.
It all pretty much seems to boil down to the same thing: You can protest, but do it in a way that I don't have to hear about it.
I think many of the folks kneeling for the anthem are misguided and misinformed about much of the issues they are concerned about, and I'm pretty sure that I would agree with them on what the proper "fix" is for the current problems we are experiencing- but I commend them for taking a stand and generating all of this talk/controversy...it's how change begins.
Cam!!!
Where have you been all this time?
Eh- I have a 2yr old ginger that keeps me busy. With him not having a soul, he's a crazy hell raiser- on the bright side, though- since he doesn't have a soul I don't have to feel guilty if I fuck up raising him.
I've also taken to stopping, saluting, and saying a prayer for America every time I come across an American flag. I'm sure you can imagine how time consuming that can be in the Midwest.
However, because Trump opened his mouth, if Goodell tries to enforce this, the players will sue and win the case in court because they would make the argument that Goodell/NFL/owners were coerced by the federal government to force them to stand for the anthem due to the threat of the players losing their jobs/employment
Meh, it's a valid point to make, and should be part of the discussion. However one must be careful to separate the bad actors from the actual issues...on both sides. It's unfortunately obvious that both sides routinely spit out inaccurate half-truths that have been fed to them by their respective bad actors.
However, because Trump opened his mouth, if Goodell tries to enforce this, the players will sue and win the case in court because they would make the argument that Goodell/NFL/owners were coerced by the federal government to force them to stand for the anthem due to the threat of the players losing their jobs/employment
Doubt it.
This was going on long before the President weighed in on it. As pointed out earlier, the NFL doesn't want to risk any sort of court battle, much less one that could potentially bring into question their status as a non-profit.
I've also taken to stopping, saluting, and saying a prayer for America every time I come across an American flag. I'm sure you can imagine how time consuming that can be in the Midwest.
Has it been twi years since you last posted? Congrats on the kid. Glad to have you back.
Yeah I know it's idealistic and simplistic; but it is incumbent on each of us to teach our kids to love each other. If everyone did that the world would be such a better place.
Ok sorry for that interruption. Go back to the bickering!
Logical, that is not.
Eric from BBI : Admin : 12:01 am : link : reply
even the 1981 New York Giants highlight tape starts off with the Giants standing for the national anthem.
I've even give you a more memorable example... Whitney Houston at Super Bowl XXV. Giants were out there. We all remember it.
Sometimes players were on the sideline for the Anthem - sometimes they weren't. I'd probably guess that for the Super Bowl's the players were because of the ceremonial aspect of the game.
I remember several games in the 80's where the National Anthem would play and then we'd burst out in applause as the team would run out of the tunnel. This idea that the Anthem was sacred to the players is a complete myth. It was done out of tradition and more for the fans than anyone else. The games used to start at 1PM and the National Anthem was usually played while the teams were in the locker room after final warmups and the start of the game.
I really can only remember a handful of times - and there was usually some ceremonial function attached when a regular season game had both teams present for the anthem. For playoffs and Super Bowl's it was another story.
what Marshawn Lynch did Sunday in Mexico undermines the players message as much as Kaepernick wearing pig socks or a Castro shirt.
it shows many of them have no idea what they're protesting which makes it an even more disrespectful form of protest (for those who find it disrespectful).
It's all bullshit. All of it. A narcissistic, petulant, septuagenarian baby carrying a decades old grudge about not being able to buy an NFL team is merely stoking anger within our society as a way to divide Americans into a cultural identity war because it gains him adulation and praise from his fervent non-bot supporters all while distracting the same people from the consequential news that breaks each day.
Also, Paul is incisive AF. 2nd para is spot on and it's both astounding & depressing that such an interpretation is not an outright given for anyone witnessing this utter red herring nonsense coming directly from the top.
It's all bullshit. All of it. A narcissistic, petulant, septuagenarian baby carrying a decades old grudge about not being able to buy an NFL team is merely stoking anger within our society as a way to divide Americans into a cultural identity war because it gains him adulation and praise from his fervent non-bot supporters all while distracting the same people from the consequential news that breaks each day.
Cop out.
it was an issue before him for some people.
All his comments did was bring more attention to it from the players. The people who had an issue with it did before he said a word.
as for faux outrage, I think what you mean is selective outrage, because I believe the outrage for some is absolutely real, and you're probably right it is selecting, but what gives you the right to tell people what they should or shouldn't be outraged about.
Isn't that as bad as telling people how to protest?
I mean is wearing a flag on your clothing (which is really just etiquette that hasn't been deemed offensive in decades) and being offended that people don't stand for the Anthem any more hypocritical than kneeling for the US anthem but standing for Mexico who has one of the worst record for human rights on the globe? Or kneeling for the US Anthem because of civil rights issues and then speaking out in support of Castro or Che Guevara?
I thought keeping it to the lost ratings and revenues and the NFL's response by slamming us with pro military ads was enough to keep the discussion to that topic. We could have been discussing the economics of the NFL and what the lost ratings and revenue could have meant for the future of the league and the next CBA.
Of course, this is BBI and people always then make the leap and transition to pure politics. For some, it is like bringing a bottle of burbon to an AA meeting.
Then sent his #1 to a Colts game just so that he could storm out during the pregame ceremonies.
Except this isn't Capt. Picard and the other guy ain't no Riker.
The selective-- and oh so obviously selective-- outrage is what makes it, by and large, faux outrage.
Again, no one in bars takes off their hats, and stops what they are doing to stand and respect the flag during the national anthem. Even during the Super Bowl when they go all out of the national anthem, people watching on TV carry about their business. In fact, it's common and enjoyable to many of these people to GAMBLE on how long the anthem is going to be-- that the anthem is nothing more than an entertaining prop.
At recent Yankees and Giants games-- during the anthem, a vendor was still calling out "beer, here" and no one bat an eye, the concession stands were operating in full force and many other fans found it an appropriate time to take a piss.
Marshawn Lynch sitting for the US anthem is about personal grievances he has with the US. The Mexican flag is irrelevant to that.
But this is specifically about the NFL trying to reach out the military and is specifically about the NFL's image with patriotism and the military. In that regard, it's impossible to do since the single biggest reason that this has exploded is because of the most inherently political person in the country.
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to have this discussion without being able to discuss politics.
I thought keeping it to the lost ratings and revenues and the NFL's response by slamming us with pro military ads was enough to keep the discussion to that topic. We could have been discussing the economics of the NFL and what the lost ratings and revenue could have meant for the future of the league and the next CBA.
Of course, this is BBI and people always then make the leap and transition to pure politics. For some, it is like bringing a bottle of burbon to an AA meeting.
The founder of this site, who constantly defends his "no politics" stance, is the one who came on this thread and said that black people are not oppressed in this country based on his anecdotal experience with a few people. Agree or disagree, if that isn't a political statement, I don't know what is.
Someone recently posted that Eric is "too far gone" and I'm beginning to agree. I don't think he's a dummy, so the other options are (1) his blind spot is really that big; or (2) he just doesn't care that he gets to post about his political leanings and others can't respond with their own.
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to have this discussion without being able to discuss politics.
I thought keeping it to the lost ratings and revenues and the NFL's response by slamming us with pro military ads was enough to keep the discussion to that topic. We could have been discussing the economics of the NFL and what the lost ratings and revenue could have meant for the future of the league and the next CBA.
Of course, this is BBI and people always then make the leap and transition to pure politics. For some, it is like bringing a bottle of burbon to an AA meeting.
You can't discuss the ratings without the same crew coming in to tell us how they and all of their family and friends are boycotting the NFL because of the flag business. All the while watching the games and continuing to comment on the NFL.
Perhaps they aren't boycotting but insist that the rest of us do.
Because this shall not stand. Not now. Not ever.
Will the NFL implode? Probably not, however, it's going to be interesting watching guys that choose to kneel, whom haven't signed the big contracts yet, make millions of dollars less then they could have because the revenue isn't there. Too stupid to realize they're slitting their own throats.
It's easy to take a knee and grab attention. It's not so easy spending your time and money on a consistent basis fighting for what you believe in, which I could respect. Unfortunately, I bet a good portion of the kneelers don't do this. Lazy, unpatriotic bums.
They can have their freedom of speech, just like I can. So when I boycott NFL games, it's no different then what they're doing
The selective-- and oh so obviously selective-- outrage is what makes it, by and large, faux outrage.
Again, no one in bars takes off their hats, and stops what they are doing to stand and respect the flag during the national anthem. Even during the Super Bowl when they go all out of the national anthem, people watching on TV carry about their business. In fact, it's common and enjoyable to many of these people to GAMBLE on how long the anthem is going to be-- that the anthem is nothing more than an entertaining prop.
At recent Yankees and Giants games-- during the anthem, a vendor was still calling out "beer, here" and no one bat an eye, the concession stands were operating in full force and many other fans found it an appropriate time to take a piss.
Marshawn Lynch sitting for the US anthem is about personal grievances he has with the US. The Mexican flag is irrelevant to that.
Damn good post.
In fact, the issue was slowly diminishing until Trump decided to say something.
Even today...he wants Lynch suspended by the NFL........
Will the NFL implode? Probably not, however, it's going to be interesting watching guys that choose to kneel, whom haven't signed the big contracts yet, make millions of dollars less then they could have because the revenue isn't there. Too stupid to realize they're slitting their own throats.
It's easy to take a knee and grab attention. It's not so easy spending your time and money on a consistent basis fighting for what you believe in, which I could respect. Unfortunately, I bet a good portion of the kneelers don't do this. Lazy, unpatriotic bums.
They can have their freedom of speech, just like I can. So when I boycott NFL games, it's no different then what they're doing
Like this guy, for instance.
You can't discuss the ratings without the same crew coming in to tell us how they and all of their family and friends are boycotting the NFL because of the flag business.
Well... I tried.
The selective-- and oh so obviously selective-- outrage is what makes it, by and large, faux outrage.
Again, no one in bars takes off their hats, and stops what they are doing to stand and respect the flag during the national anthem. Even during the Super Bowl when they go all out of the national anthem, people watching on TV carry about their business. In fact, it's common and enjoyable to many of these people to GAMBLE on how long the anthem is going to be-- that the anthem is nothing more than an entertaining prop.
At recent Yankees and Giants games-- during the anthem, a vendor was still calling out "beer, here" and no one bat an eye, the concession stands were operating in full force and many other fans found it an appropriate time to take a piss.
Marshawn Lynch sitting for the US anthem is about personal grievances he has with the US. The Mexican flag is irrelevant to that.
Even if it is selective, and I agree it is, what gives you the right to say this:
I know you don't need me to point out examples of how all the people kneeling are also exhibiting faux outrage. I know you can recognize and realize many worse atrocities, some even in conflict with their issues being protested, that aren't being protested. How is it different?
In this day and age people get to pick what offends them, no matter how hypocritical or misguided it may be, on either side of the aisle and without prejudice.
It's their inalienable right as citizens.
Where did I say that people who don't share my world view are dim wits? I actually specifically said that I don't think Eric is a dummy....
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Just won't keep politics out of sports? I'm sure there are groups on both sides of the political spectrum that would simply prefer to not see it, considering it's shoved in everyone's face on a daily basis, again, no matter what side.
Will the NFL implode? Probably not, however, it's going to be interesting watching guys that choose to kneel, whom haven't signed the big contracts yet, make millions of dollars less then they could have because the revenue isn't there. Too stupid to realize they're slitting their own throats.
It's easy to take a knee and grab attention. It's not so easy spending your time and money on a consistent basis fighting for what you believe in, which I could respect. Unfortunately, I bet a good portion of the kneelers don't do this. Lazy, unpatriotic bums.
They can have their freedom of speech, just like I can. So when I boycott NFL games, it's no different then what they're doing
Like this guy, for instance.
Forgot to mention attention grabbing ill informed drama queens
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In comment 13699175 PaulBlakeTSU said:
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to have this discussion without being able to discuss politics.
I thought keeping it to the lost ratings and revenues and the NFL's response by slamming us with pro military ads was enough to keep the discussion to that topic. We could have been discussing the economics of the NFL and what the lost ratings and revenue could have meant for the future of the league and the next CBA.
Of course, this is BBI and people always then make the leap and transition to pure politics. For some, it is like bringing a bottle of burbon to an AA meeting.
The founder of this site, who constantly defends his "no politics" stance, is the one who came on this thread and said that black people are not oppressed in this country based on his anecdotal experience with a few people. Agree or disagree, if that isn't a political statement, I don't know what is.
Someone recently posted that Eric is "too far gone" and I'm beginning to agree. I don't think he's a dummy, so the other options are (1) his blind spot is really that big; or (2) he just doesn't care that he gets to post about his political leanings and others can't respond with their own.
Mike, a really novel thought, if you don't like it don't come here?
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In comment 13699295 EricJ said:
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In comment 13699175 PaulBlakeTSU said:
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to have this discussion without being able to discuss politics.
I thought keeping it to the lost ratings and revenues and the NFL's response by slamming us with pro military ads was enough to keep the discussion to that topic. We could have been discussing the economics of the NFL and what the lost ratings and revenue could have meant for the future of the league and the next CBA.
Of course, this is BBI and people always then make the leap and transition to pure politics. For some, it is like bringing a bottle of burbon to an AA meeting.
The founder of this site, who constantly defends his "no politics" stance, is the one who came on this thread and said that black people are not oppressed in this country based on his anecdotal experience with a few people. Agree or disagree, if that isn't a political statement, I don't know what is.
Someone recently posted that Eric is "too far gone" and I'm beginning to agree. I don't think he's a dummy, so the other options are (1) his blind spot is really that big; or (2) he just doesn't care that he gets to post about his political leanings and others can't respond with their own.
Mike, a really novel thought, if you don't like it don't come here?
Where did I say I don't like it here?
The the outrage on the other side is a direct response to that. It's an anger is against disrespecting the flag/anthem. But why is that outrage ONLY directed at a very select group of people? Why is it only what the (black) athletes are doing who are the ones that need to be admonished for disrespecting the flag/anthem?
There isn't outrage at the people talking during the anthem, on their phones, at the concession stands, drinking beer, holding their dicks-- none of that draws outrage. Just the players.
There haven't been talking heads crucifying stadiums and teams for selling concessions during the anthem or at the stadium/security for checking people in during the anthem, or bars for carrying on during the anthem.
And if it's kneeling, then why hasn't any vocal protester said ONE WORD about all the photographers on their knees on the field during the anthem taking pictures?
There may be some well-meaning people who are bothered by people kneeling during the anthem. But this fever pitch out outrage matches the same undercurrent of the stupid MAGA ideology.
There isn't outrage at the people talking during the anthem, on their phones, at the concession stands, drinking beer, holding their dicks-- none of that draws outrage. Just the players.
There haven't been talking heads crucifying stadiums and teams for selling concessions during the anthem or at the stadium/security for checking people in during the anthem, or bars for carrying on during the anthem.
I think one could even argue that those examples show less respect for the anthem than someone who values it enough as a symbol that they believe sitting for it will make a point.
The the outrage on the other side is a direct response to that. It's an anger is against disrespecting the flag/anthem. But why is that outrage ONLY directed at a very select group of people? Why is it only what the (black) athletes are doing who are the ones that need to be admonished for disrespecting the flag/anthem?
There isn't outrage at the people talking during the anthem, on their phones, at the concession stands, drinking beer, holding their dicks-- none of that draws outrage. Just the players.
There haven't been talking heads crucifying stadiums and teams for selling concessions during the anthem or at the stadium/security for checking people in during the anthem, or bars for carrying on during the anthem.
And if it's kneeling, then why hasn't any vocal protester said ONE WORD about all the photographers on their knees on the field during the anthem taking pictures?
There may be some well-meaning people who are bothered by people kneeling during the anthem. But this fever pitch out outrage matches the same undercurrent of the stupid MAGA ideology.
I'm not here to defend it, just explain it.
Most stadiums I'm in if someone is talking or sitting or wearing a hat during the Anthem people yell at them to stand, shut up or take their hat off. Sort of a crowd sourced form of enforcement. That's what I typically see, sounds like you don't see that.
but, and it's a big but, those acts are usually not done out of malice or protest, they are done out of ignorance or indifference.
If you can't see the distinction then you don't want to see the distinction in how one of those two scenarios is more offensive (to some).
People in their houses or bars or any other place you mention is the real false equivalency because there has never been a tradition ever for people to stand in their homes or bars or anywhere other than at the game out of respect for the Anthem.
The selective-- and oh so obviously selective-- outrage is what makes it, by and large, faux outrage.
Again, no one in bars takes off their hats, and stops what they are doing to stand and respect the flag during the national anthem. Even during the Super Bowl when they go all out of the national anthem, people watching on TV carry about their business. In fact, it's common and enjoyable to many of these people to GAMBLE on how long the anthem is going to be-- that the anthem is nothing more than an entertaining prop.
At recent Yankees and Giants games-- during the anthem, a vendor was still calling out "beer, here" and no one bat an eye, the concession stands were operating in full force and many other fans found it an appropriate time to take a piss.
Marshawn Lynch sitting for the US anthem is about personal grievances he has with the US. The Mexican flag is irrelevant to that.
There are many factors in that...quality of the game has deteriorated, over-saturation, new CBA, rule changes, too many commercials. But mixing politics with sports was stupid. The NFL doesn't know its audience or chose to ignore it. The NFL could have easily avoided this whole thing. You see the same thing with ESPN, who is now set for another round of layoffs.
I disagree.
I've watched less and less football myself, this year and year's prior.
Why?
The product is poor, I can watch as many NHL games as I want (something not around when I grew up).
Heck, if anything the athletes taking a knee would make me watch MORE just to see that.
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People in their houses or bars or any other place you mention is the real false equivalency because there has never been a tradition ever for people to stand in their homes or bars or anywhere other than at the game out of respect for the Anthem.
The US Flag code only requires those present to stand - not if you watch remotely:
During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should render the military salute at the first note of the anthem and retain this position until the last note. When the flag is not displayed, those present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed there.
Yet my dad who is a WWII vet will stand in his living room when it is played. He can't stomach the players that kneel but says he's not gonna let a few assholes stop him from watching the Giants.
But, suddenly, indifference to the anthem doesn't draw the their ire?
Respect for the flag and anthem is of such life and death importance, but not when you hear it in your house through the television?
I know you are explanining the stance rather than defend it, but the further one defends it, the more the argument unravels.
This massive, divisive issue is either very important because the national anthem is sacrosanct or it isn't.
It seems to me that this cause celebre is more a chance to be on team MAGA and criticize these successful (black) athletes for being ungrateful.
And while anecdotal, I think this picture reflects how many feel of the ones railing against the NFL and their players.
It's a free country, and as long as they are acting within the law should be free to do what they want. Does forcing someone to stand for an anthem make this a better country? I'd say it goes against the values of the country in the first place.
1st....people historically came to America because it was a vast, airable piece of land that was undeveloped and underserved. Western Europe has been developed for thousands of years-many were fleeing overcrowding.
2nd..many did not come voluntarily. many were forced here via slavery. Others were basically rounded up and sent to America in the same manner vagrants are sent to jail.
3rd..today...many of the people coming here are fleeing horrible 3rd world conditions, for slighlty better racially oppressed conditions as non-legal and thus highly vulnerable people.
I applaud the athletes for taking a knee.
For many, it is not insincere.
I read an article last month, after the Iggles-Skins game ended at midnight several Iggles players got up at 5 AM to go to Harrisburg and meet with state legislators to help pass the 'Clean Slate' law.
Although many are not blatant racists, we have a system historically that has been racially and socioeconomically biased-unless you are a good football player or a doctor.
Ever wonder why HealthCare is tied to the employer instead of by birthright (because jobs could discriminate against certain people)?
Or why you get a tax break on your mortgage interest-but not your rent or your student loans?
Why can you refinance a home, discharge a home loan, but not a student loan-the same loan many need to have skills to get a job?
Link - ( New Window )
As flag etiquette has evolved it has become supportive and patriotic to wear flag clothing, not disrespectful.
this is according to the American Legion, not some random hack opinion.
And the indifference to the Anthem IMO isn't condoned, but it's not blatant disdain, that's why it's less offensive. Usually when informed of their ignorance or indifference a person will adhere to accepted norms.
I know a lot of people say veterans fought for the right for people to protest and they'll say most veterans are not offended by the protests, but in my job and through various civic organizations I belong to I speak with a lot of veterans, many don't give a shit, but most that I talk to actually do find the form of protest offensive and they feel like the protests target the wrong group. You know, consider your audience.
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My football watching is pretty much limited to the Giants now. I used to be an NFL junkie. Not anymore.
There are many factors in that...quality of the game has deteriorated, over-saturation, new CBA, rule changes, too many commercials. But mixing politics with sports was stupid. The NFL doesn't know its audience or chose to ignore it. The NFL could have easily avoided this whole thing. You see the same thing with ESPN, who is now set for another round of layoffs.
I disagree.
I've watched less and less football myself, this year and year's prior.
Why?
The product is poor, I can watch as many NHL games as I want (something not around when I grew up).
Heck, if anything the athletes taking a knee would make me watch MORE just to see that.
Just think about all the teams that now become your favorite teams!
Plus it doesn't help that a bunch of famous, black millionaire athletes in a league that is 80% black are complaining that their race is oppressed and can't succeed in this country.
Yeah I know it's idealistic and simplistic; but it is incumbent on each of us to teach our kids to love each other. If everyone did that the world would be such a better place.
Ok sorry for that interruption. Go back to the bickering!
+1
The selective-- and oh so obviously selective-- outrage is what makes it, by and large, faux outrage.
Again, no one in bars takes off their hats, and stops what they are doing to stand and respect the flag during the national anthem. Even during the Super Bowl when they go all out of the national anthem, people watching on TV carry about their business. In fact, it's common and enjoyable to many of these people to GAMBLE on how long the anthem is going to be-- that the anthem is nothing more than an entertaining prop.
At recent Yankees and Giants games-- during the anthem, a vendor was still calling out "beer, here" and no one bat an eye, the concession stands were operating in full force and many other fans found it an appropriate time to take a piss.
Marshawn Lynch sitting for the US anthem is about personal grievances he has with the US. The Mexican flag is irrelevant to that.
You stated "faux outrage" as fact when, in truth, it's difficult to know a person's motivation. Evidence is needed to make your case.
Plus it doesn't help that a bunch of famous, black millionaire athletes in a league that is 80% black are complaining that their race is oppressed and can't succeed in this country.
Your post couldn't be more wrong.
The protest didn't fail, and it didn't backfire. It became a huge national story. Most of the time that it's brought up in the news, the reason behind it is mentioned. A protest that fails and backfires is one that nobody pays attention to.
The "anyone" you refer to in "...all anyone is talking about..." are only the people in your echo chamber. It's obvious you don't spend much time outside of your bubble, since you haven't heard any other type of discussion regarding this.
And your last paragraph is the typical, tone-deaf (and telling) response of many (certain) people, who will never, ever, ever get it. Your use of the term "complaining" alone is pretty repulsive, when you consider what they're "complaining" about.
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I think most players have realized this and is why there are only a handful left doing it. Instead of helping their cause of "black oppression and police brutality", all anyone is talking about is whether or not their kneeling is anti-American and disrespectful to veterans. When you have to keep explaining what your protest is about and pleading that you are not protesting the flag, the country and its veterans its obviously not working.
Plus it doesn't help that a bunch of famous, black millionaire athletes in a league that is 80% black are complaining that their race is oppressed and can't succeed in this country.
Your post couldn't be more wrong.
The protest didn't fail, and it didn't backfire. It became a huge national story. Most of the time that it's brought up in the news, the reason behind it is mentioned. A protest that fails and backfires is one that nobody pays attention to.
The "anyone" you refer to in "...all anyone is talking about..." are only the people in your echo chamber. It's obvious you don't spend much time outside of your bubble, since you haven't heard any other type of discussion regarding this.
And your last paragraph is the typical, tone-deaf (and telling) response of many (certain) people, who will never, ever, ever get it. Your use of the term "complaining" alone is pretty repulsive, when you consider what they're "complaining" about.
The only time that topic of "police brutality and oppression" comes up now is when a player like Eric Reid goes on the View show to explain they aren't protesting the flag/country. Like I said, not a good protest if what you're protesting has to be explained over and over. BTW he said he wants the laws changed so that police can't use lethal force if someone is unarmed. So if an unarmed suspect resists arrest, attacks a cop and tries strangling him or taking his weapon as in the Michael Brown case a cop can't use lethal force?? GTFO
And BTW you may want to look up the definition of protest:
protest
verb
gerund or present participle: protesting
prəˈtest,prōˈtest/Submit
1.
express an objection to what someone has said or done.
"she wouldn't let him pay, and he didn't protest"
synonyms: express opposition, object, dissent, take issue, make/take a stand, put up a fight, kick, take exception, complain, express disapproval, disagree, demur, remonstrate, make a fuss
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In comment 13699437 giant24 said:
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I think most players have realized this and is why there are only a handful left doing it. Instead of helping their cause of "black oppression and police brutality", all anyone is talking about is whether or not their kneeling is anti-American and disrespectful to veterans. When you have to keep explaining what your protest is about and pleading that you are not protesting the flag, the country and its veterans its obviously not working.
Plus it doesn't help that a bunch of famous, black millionaire athletes in a league that is 80% black are complaining that their race is oppressed and can't succeed in this country.
Your post couldn't be more wrong.
The protest didn't fail, and it didn't backfire. It became a huge national story. Most of the time that it's brought up in the news, the reason behind it is mentioned. A protest that fails and backfires is one that nobody pays attention to.
The "anyone" you refer to in "...all anyone is talking about..." are only the people in your echo chamber. It's obvious you don't spend much time outside of your bubble, since you haven't heard any other type of discussion regarding this.
And your last paragraph is the typical, tone-deaf (and telling) response of many (certain) people, who will never, ever, ever get it. Your use of the term "complaining" alone is pretty repulsive, when you consider what they're "complaining" about.
The only time that topic of "police brutality and oppression" comes up now is when a player like Eric Reid goes on the View show to explain they aren't protesting the flag/country. Like I said, not a good protest if what you're protesting has to be explained over and over. BTW he said he wants the laws changed so that police can't use lethal force if someone is unarmed. So if an unarmed suspect resists arrest, attacks a cop and tries strangling him or taking his weapon as in the Michael Brown case a cop can't use lethal force?? GTFO
And BTW you may want to look up the definition of protest:
protest
verb
gerund or present participle: protesting
prəˈtest,prōˈtest/Submit
1.
express an objection to what someone has said or done.
"she wouldn't let him pay, and he didn't protest"
synonyms: express opposition, object, dissent, take issue, make/take a stand, put up a fight, kick, take exception, complain, express disapproval, disagree, demur, remonstrate, make a fuss
It has to be explained over and over again because duderheads such yourself, and certain television personalities continue to muddle the issue by injecting their own super patriotism and expecting everyone else to feel the same way. Why? I suspect it's because you care not to address either the symptoms or root causes of what these players are protesting.
And when all else fails, claim that you know a black guy that doesn't like the protests either or that he's never witnessed or been the target of unlawful frisking or been affected by discrimination. Then when that fails, claim that these guys don't even actually know what they're protesting cause they're stupid.
However, many like Eric cannot get past the optic of men not standing for the flag.
My father is a WWII vet who fought in the Pacific, and honestly, the protest rubs me the wrong way even though I believe the players who State they are not trying to disrespect the military.
But the protest forum is misguided and is hurting the product. No employee has the right to do that to their employer without suffering consequences.
Let s see how players react when the protest begins to impact their personal finances.
It's all bullshit. All of it. A narcissistic, petulant, septuagenarian baby carrying a decades old grudge about not being able to buy an NFL team is merely stoking anger within our society as a way to divide Americans into a cultural identity war because it gains him adulation and praise from his fervent non-bot supporters all while distracting the same people from the consequential news that breaks each day.
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I think you're making a false equivalency. The players protesting one thing (racial oppression) does not require them to protest against all injustices in the country. That would be impossible. They are focusing their protest on the most personal issue to them and are using their voices to highlight that issue.
The the outrage on the other side is a direct response to that. It's an anger is against disrespecting the flag/anthem. But why is that outrage ONLY directed at a very select group of people? Why is it only what the (black) athletes are doing who are the ones that need to be admonished for disrespecting the flag/anthem?
There isn't outrage at the people talking during the anthem, on their phones, at the concession stands, drinking beer, holding their dicks-- none of that draws outrage. Just the players.
There haven't been talking heads crucifying stadiums and teams for selling concessions during the anthem or at the stadium/security for checking people in during the anthem, or bars for carrying on during the anthem.
And if it's kneeling, then why hasn't any vocal protester said ONE WORD about all the photographers on their knees on the field during the anthem taking pictures?
There may be some well-meaning people who are bothered by people kneeling during the anthem. But this fever pitch out outrage matches the same undercurrent of the stupid MAGA ideology.
I'm not here to defend it, just explain it.
Most stadiums I'm in if someone is talking or sitting or wearing a hat during the Anthem people yell at them to stand, shut up or take their hat off. Sort of a crowd sourced form of enforcement. That's what I typically see, sounds like you don't see that.
but, and it's a big but, those acts are usually not done out of malice or protest, they are done out of ignorance or indifference.
If you can't see the distinction then you don't want to see the distinction in how one of those two scenarios is more offensive (to some).
People in their houses or bars or any other place you mention is the real false equivalency because there has never been a tradition ever for people to stand in their homes or bars or anywhere other than at the game out of respect for the Anthem.
B) If as a business you decide to play the anthem - then you open it up to being used by your employees to address political protest. IMO it is an instance of repression if you do this and issue penalties to those who would have differing views and act on them.
C) The NFL opened up this can of worms by intermixing state and private business. They wouldn't have to do damage control if they didn't want to use phony patriotism either in the first place; or to respond to heat generated by an inappropriate president and fans who do not understand what freedom really means.
The stanza we've adopted is the question in the proclamation.
Key is asking the question, as he observes the tattered flag over, as if to ask are we both a land of freedom and bravery.
That's an important posit in this debate. The author determines we are equally both of these qualities as a nation - and that the beaten flag is a just metaphor for both the wars we fight with bombs and battle for freedom among us.
The poem ends answering the question affirmatively:
Between their loved home and the wars desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heavn rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: In God is our trust.
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
Oer the land of the free and the home of the brave!
I would challenge us all to remember the anthem we celebrate is in honor of the bravery of those who fight to preserve and in the freedoms we are afforded - not only because of the war-time battles we fight, but for the noble cause for freedom we all might strive for daily.
However you feel about protest, the nature of the protest, the eloquence of the protest - it might be wise to remember protest is fundamental to our American view of freedom, and freedom is the Yin to the Yang of bravery in the anthem.
B) If as a business you decide to play the anthem - then you open it up to being used by your employees to address political protest. IMO it is an instance of repression if you do this and issue penalties to those who would have differing views and act on them.
C) The NFL opened up this can of worms by intermixing state and private business. They wouldn't have to do damage control if they didn't want to use phony patriotism either in the first place; or to respond to heat generated by an inappropriate president and fans who do not understand what freedom really means.
It's similar to everyone standing for the pledge at school. You actually can't force everyone to stand for the pledge, it is only suggested that everyone stand for it. If you make it compulsory you open yourself up to civil lawsuits due to the 1943 Supreme Court case West Virginia State Board of Education vs. Barnette, where SCOTUS ruled that the 1st Amendment prohibits public schools from compulsory salute to the flag and the pledge
I doubt that is true. How can the NBA require players to stand for the National Anthem? The answer is because the players agreed to it i their CBA.
If the NFLPA agreed to it in their CBA like the NBA players did, then nothing in the SCOTUS 1943 ruling would prevent it.
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A) I don't like the politicization of the workplace. Professional sports is a private business. Having the national anthem played is a political action. How many BBIer's have the anthem played when they start work. How many other businesses that provide entertainment do not play the anthem. It is ridiculous.
B) If as a business you decide to play the anthem - then you open it up to being used by your employees to address political protest. IMO it is an instance of repression if you do this and issue penalties to those who would have differing views and act on them.
C) The NFL opened up this can of worms by intermixing state and private business. They wouldn't have to do damage control if they didn't want to use phony patriotism either in the first place; or to respond to heat generated by an inappropriate president and fans who do not understand what freedom really means.
It's similar to everyone standing for the pledge at school. You actually can't force everyone to stand for the pledge, it is only suggested that everyone stand for it. If you make it compulsory you open yourself up to civil lawsuits due to the 1943 Supreme Court case West Virginia State Board of Education vs. Barnette, where SCOTUS ruled that the 1st Amendment prohibits public schools from compulsory salute to the flag and the pledge
And most of these dip shits kneeling will eventually be out of the league in their 30's and trying to figure out how to get a job (cash flow) or to get a job as a name drop on one of the many Bravo shows of housewives and girlfriends. We even have one on our team. lol
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would prevent the NFL from forcing its players to stand for the national anthem should the players ever sue the NFL on a compulsory policy like standing for the anthem
I doubt that is true. How can the NBA require players to stand for the National Anthem? The answer is because the players agreed to it i their CBA.
If the NFLPA agreed to it in their CBA like the NBA players did, then nothing in the SCOTUS 1943 ruling would prevent it.
Don't think it was agreed to in their CBA the same way the NBA players did with theirs, but I'd have to check
The 1st Amendment generally does not constrain businesses, like the NFL, from promoting or suppressing political speech.
The 1st Amendment generally does not constrain businesses, like the NFL, from promoting or suppressing political speech.
Normally but in this case the NFL would be instituting a policy of standing for the anthem due to coercion from the federal government (Trump's twitter), which is illegal.
The 1943 SCOTUS Pledge of Allegiance ruling actually came from Jehovah's Witnesses in West Virginia who refused to salute the flag because their religion prohibited it
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so they cannot force students to stand for the anthem or pledge allegiance because it violates both the free speech clause of the 1st Amendment and one of the religious clauses (I'm pretty sure free exercise, because certain interpretations of religions won't allow you to pledge allegiance to the flag).
The 1st Amendment generally does not constrain businesses, like the NFL, from promoting or suppressing political speech.
Normally but in this case the NFL would be instituting a policy of standing for the anthem due to coercion from the federal government (Trump's twitter), which is illegal.
The 1943 SCOTUS Pledge of Allegiance ruling actually came from Jehovah's Witnesses in West Virginia who refused to salute the flag because their religion prohibited it
Whether that counts as coercion would be an interesting legal question, but one that I definitely cannot answer at the moment.
1) For reasons I have stated, I strongly applaud the players for using their fortunate position as athletes to bring attention to the underreported crisis facing minorities. They could just easily take the OJ view of Ive made millions, to heck with them but instead they want to risk their goodwill and fortune to help those less well off. Kudos.
Nonetheless, my football viewing is way down, and I am not one of those dodging the NFL due to anthem protests. Rather, I think my anecdote may be more reflective.
a. First, back when I grew up (90s and 00s) we had cable but no high speed internet. I could not stream my teams games in the NFL, have access to my teams newspapers and websites, and I did not have the NHL or MLB packages. Thus, I lived by sports radio, ESPN, and whatever national games I was fortunate enough to see. When football was on, it was must see TV because it pretty much was the only time I could see it. I did not have youtube or those things so I could watch whenever. Thus it has gone from cant miss to can miss and I can be see later. I can see all of my hcokey teams games and baseball teams games-I can see all my Giants games, so Im able to cherry pick, and thus I have much less interest in games not involving my team. I used to know the stats for all the teams in all the leagues-now-I know way more about my team but know much less about any other random team.
b. Ive streamed about 5 Giant games this season. The quality of streams (thank you to the BBIer who told me about reddit) has been awesome. I think many others have done this-and so while we dont count as watching over the air, we still are watching.
So, you think the players understand the financial risks they are taking? Really? Giving them that much credit huh? They are fucking morons for the most part and have been entitled since high school and probably do not think there is any risk to them. They cannot even measure the pros vs cons of hitting someone late out of bounds even though they are probably told NOT to do it over and over by their position coach.
So, you think the players understand the financial risks they are taking? Really? Giving them that much credit huh? They are fucking morons for the most part and have been entitled since high school and probably do not think there is any risk to them. They cannot even measure the pros vs cons of hitting someone late out of bounds even though they are probably told NOT to do it over and over by their position coach.
One is a decision that can be slept on, talked over with family, friends, mentors, leaders before deciding to act. The other has you sprinting and giving you less than one second to react. Same shit.
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They could just easily take the OJ view of Ive made millions, to heck with them but instead they want to risk their goodwill and fortune to help those less well off. Kudos.
So, you think the players understand the financial risks they are taking? Really? Giving them that much credit huh? They are fucking morons for the most part and have been entitled since high school and probably do not think there is any risk to them. They cannot even measure the pros vs cons of hitting someone late out of bounds even though they are probably told NOT to do it over and over by their position coach.
Jeez. You have an incredibly poor view of football players. Why do you bother watching such despicable people?
Fuck steps one, two and three out of the Sean Hannity Playbook. TylerAimee just threw the hailmary.
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In comment 13699649 dpinzow said:
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would prevent the NFL from forcing its players to stand for the national anthem should the players ever sue the NFL on a compulsory policy like standing for the anthem
I doubt that is true. How can the NBA require players to stand for the National Anthem? The answer is because the players agreed to it i their CBA.
If the NFLPA agreed to it in their CBA like the NBA players did, then nothing in the SCOTUS 1943 ruling would prevent it.
Don't think it was agreed to in their CBA the same way the NBA players did with theirs, but I'd have to check
Right now it's not, there is no official rule about it for the NFL - I simply said the NBA agreed to it with their players so the NFL can too, so I said "if" they agreed to it, and you know it's going to come up in the next CBA as a bargaining chip (for both sides).
NFLPA will say we want weed off the banned substance list and the NFL will say ok for "medicinal purposes" but stand for the anthem. done.
1) For reasons I have stated, I strongly applaud the players for using their fortunate position as athletes to bring attention to the underreported crisis facing minorities. They could just easily take the OJ view of Ive made millions, to heck with them but instead they want to risk their goodwill and fortune to help those less well off. Kudos.
Nonetheless, my football viewing is way down, and I am not one of those dodging the NFL due to anthem protests. Rather, I think my anecdote may be more reflective.
a. First, back when I grew up (90s and 00s) we had cable but no high speed internet. I could not stream my teams games in the NFL, have access to my teams newspapers and websites, and I did not have the NHL or MLB packages. Thus, I lived by sports radio, ESPN, and whatever national games I was fortunate enough to see. When football was on, it was must see TV because it pretty much was the only time I could see it. I did not have youtube or those things so I could watch whenever. Thus it has gone from cant miss to can miss and I can be see later. I can see all of my hcokey teams games and baseball teams games-I can see all my Giants games, so Im able to cherry pick, and thus I have much less interest in games not involving my team. I used to know the stats for all the teams in all the leagues-now-I know way more about my team but know much less about any other random team.
b. Ive streamed about 5 Giant games this season. The quality of streams (thank you to the BBIer who told me about reddit) has been awesome. I think many others have done this-and so while we dont count as watching over the air, we still are watching.
You can applaud them all you want and my view is that is 100% their right to protest, but actions have consequences, and don't you ever question the audience?
What if the NFL players were unhappy with their rising healthcare premiums and decided to take a knee during the Anthem as a protest?
What if it was their high taxes being in the 34% tax bracket (or whatever it is) as NFL players?
what they're doing by using that forum is lumping everyone who watches games and loves the anthem and the flag (even if that love is viewed by some people as sanctimonious or selective) and making them all guilty of oppression and being "the bad guy".
that's why there is a backlash.
If they protested outside police stations against police brutality or better yet encouraged and were involved in community outreach groups (like Shaq wound up doing post-career even becoming an police officer) or if they marched on Washington they'd get more support IMO from some of the people who find this forum and method of protest offensive or at least there would be less controversy.
And I do not think the attention they have garnered is a good thing, I think the people who already sympathized with systemic oppression still do, but they alienated people who were indifferent to it or just denied it happens.
I think they have widened a divide, not created a bridge.
Here is another cliche that may work better, "don't judge a man until you walk a mile in his shoes".
Because then you're a mile away and you have his shoes.
Jeez. You have an incredibly poor view of football players. Why do you bother watching such despicable people?
I said most are not smart enough to weigh the financial impact of their decision. "Despicable"? I don't know how you came up with that. My guess is that you don't know what that word means.
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steve
Eric from BBI : Admin : 12:01 am : link : reply
even the 1981 New York Giants highlight tape starts off with the Giants standing for the national anthem.
I've even give you a more memorable example... Whitney Houston at Super Bowl XXV. Giants were out there. We all remember it.
Sometimes players were on the sideline for the Anthem - sometimes they weren't. I'd probably guess that for the Super Bowl's the players were because of the ceremonial aspect of the game.
I remember several games in the 80's where the National Anthem would play and then we'd burst out in applause as the team would run out of the tunnel. This idea that the Anthem was sacred to the players is a complete myth. It was done out of tradition and more for the fans than anyone else. The games used to start at 1PM and the National Anthem was usually played while the teams were in the locker room after final warmups and the start of the game.
I really can only remember a handful of times - and there was usually some ceremonial function attached when a regular season game had both teams present for the anthem. For playoffs and Super Bowl's it was another story.
Not to mention, using an example that is widely known to be a lip-synched rendition of the anthem - is lip-synching respectful and patriotic? Or does it really speak to the pomp and circumstance of the whole thing?
same here. and I use "know" loosely, more like for me who I have met a few times.
Is there a word you'd have preferred to use instead of "dip shits"? It feels like maybe there is.
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Jeez. You have an incredibly poor view of football players. Why do you bother watching such despicable people?
I said most are not smart enough to weigh the financial impact of their decision. "Despicable"? I don't know how you came up with that. My guess is that you don't know what that word means.
You called them morons and entitled. You obviously have a very low opinion of the character of nfl players. I think you thinking theyre despicable is not far off. Again, why bother watching such entitled morons, your words, if you have such convictions about them?
1) St. Louis and San Diego moving to LA. Ratings have not improved in LA, and obviously dropped in those markets. I myself am mad at the NFL for moving.
2) Chris Berman. I know watched MNF just to see his halftime show.
1) St. Louis and San Diego moving to LA. Ratings have not improved in LA, and obviously dropped in those markets. I myself am mad at the NFL for moving.
2) Chris Berman. I know watched MNF just to see his halftime show.
If you're seriously listing Chris Berman as a reason for NFL ratings declining, you're doing it wrong. Very, very wrong. I can't even tell if this is serious. To the point where I'd rather discuss the percentage of visiting fans in every NFL stadium than entertain the notion of Chris Berman being in any way related to NFL ratings declining. I'd rather discuss the merits of having multiple favorite teams in the same sport than even pause to consider whether Chris Berman is remotely attached to NFL ratings declining. There is not even a hint of a chance that he has anything to do with the ratings. At best, his fans represent nothing more than a rounding error in the ratings.
TL;DR: No, Chris Berman absolutely does NOT have anything to do with the declining ratings.
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And yet, people from all over the world, from every ethnic, social, political, and economic background want to come HERE. Where people can rise to heights in every corner of our society based on their ability.
Every country has issues, but I thank God every day that I was fortunate enough to be born an American. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
I'm well aware how fucked up other countries are. My family fled the CCCP in '79 and nearly three decades after the supposed perestroika, little has changed there. The day my family and I became naturalized citizens was probably the proudest day of my life.
You grew up here and the anthem and stars and stripes are a source of pride. That's great. For those of us who were born under religious, cultural, lingual, ethnic oppression under the banner of hammer and sickle, symbols don't mean a great deal.
The source of America's power isn't the flag. It's the Constitution - and specifically individual protections assured under the Bill of Rights. It's fluid and not static. You don't like the law your congress just passed? Go protest. Go try that in Moscow and you'll be joining the half dozen opposition party leaders Putin has locked up in the past 15 years. That's the best case scenario.
There are some similarities in what I've described above and the rhetoric from some elected official(s). Already we've seen the comingling of US political operatives and foreign provocateurs. We've seen the blurring of lines between branches of government. This has always happened to an extent, to be sure, but never this blatant. The final price would be an attack and dismantling of the free press. This has not happened but, once again, You be heard the rhetoric blowing that way for years.
Finally, many would argue that while no country is perfect - as you've said above - it's our obligation to seek to improve the lives of our citizens. All citizens. Acknowledging that systemic problems exist in the judicial system isn't enough. Knowing that middle class wages are stagnant while the income gap grows exponentially isn't enough. We witness what's seemingly become weekly events in our back yards where thousands our own citizens and children are gunned down indiscriminately. We mourn for a few days, are fed some talking points from a prominent lobby group via a congressional proxy and we move on.
Millions of Americans feel this isn't good enough and while you may not agree with the chosen form of protest, and are surely free to protest on your own, please don't conflate our ideas and values. Certainly don't patronize us by offering us a lecture on how much better the US is. Quite honestly, you wouldn't know. For all of our successes, there are countries to do some things better. Rather than take a pigheaded and ultra nationalist and protectionist POV, I think we'd be better served to be pragmatists rather than ideologues.
BRAVO Modus!!! I haven't read through the entire thread, but I doubt there are any posts that express my feelings as well as this one. I was a conservative Republican (I hope its permissable to mention that) for the first 60 years of my life, so I understand Eric's perspective, but I've come around 180 degrees in the past few years and tried hard to appreciate other views and not just simplistic and un-nuanced, rigid beliefs.
Stay away from the ledge clown.
78% of NFL players are bankrupt or in financial stress within 2 years of leaving the league.
Not particularly impressive.
Quote:
I'm extremely impressed with the players I have come to know over the years.
78% of NFL players are bankrupt or in financial stress within 2 years of leaving the league.
Not particularly impressive.
Being young and not having an understanding of money doesn't equate to being stupid.
I suspect you'd find similar results if you examined everyday 25 year olds. Forget kids. Half of Americans have nothing put away for retirement. One in three have nothing in a savings/checking account, living paycheck to paycheck. If that isn't financial stress, I don't know what is.
But they aren't stupid. Just the football players who have a different POV than some mouthy shithead on a message board.