We have had the discussions about how the NFL has taken a hit and the ratings are suffering which in turn means less revenue.
The number of commercials and the other activities that I see now from the NFL in support of the military is overwhelming. It is obvious that they are trying to win some of their fan base back.
My wife, who never watches any games only catches a glimpse as she walks through the room with the game on.... she even noticed in the little exposure that she has to it.
How would we feel if one of the USA athletes who won gold knelt, sat or just didn't stand on the podium?
This issue matters greatly to me because when I look at the rest of the world for the most part, I am so glad to be an American!
Same here! This is a great country!
Love it - ( New Window )
This is a temper tantrum by over-indulged millionaires who don't appreciate where the butter for their bread comes from....
Ah, that "ungrateful" canard. Which only seems to apply to black people.
Here is another cliche that may work better, "don't judge a man until you walk a mile in his shoes".
And, Eric, you can't see that this is how the site's been run these last few years?
If folks think this is overly political, I will delete. I thought this was one of those gray area football/socio-political topics that we've kept up as long as it doesn't get into slamming party politics. If this is offensive to some I will delete.
*******
We're all pissing into the wind at this point. No one is going to change anyone's views on this issue by venting their opinion on it.
One side views this as "forced patriotism" - an offensive expression in and of itself. People around the world still stand for their national anthem. They do at football games in England. They do so for soccer games around the world. They do so for hockey north of the border. It's a sign of respect for the country in which one lives. It’s not about race, sexual orientation, the military, or anything else. It’s simply about respect for how far we’ve come as a nation and for what it took, on all our parts, to get us here.
I think the controversy has actually helped in some ways. My son goes to a very racially diverse high school. When this controversy blew up again, the color guard came out with the flag, you could have heard a pin drop. It was dead silent. When the marching band played the national anthem, everyone in the stands, including all of the students sang the anthem. I never in my life heard that happen before - everyone was singing. People had tears in their eyes and posted about this experience on school websites. It was similar to how I felt after the first time I heard the national anthem at an event after 9/11.
To some people, the United States is filled with the worst kind of people society has to offer. While I don’t question that those people, unfortunately, exist, I choose to see the other side. The more prevalent side. The side where an African American man was twice elected to be the leader of the free world. I choose to see a nation built from people of all backgrounds coming together and making this the only place on Earth where someone can come with nothing in their pocket and make something of themselves. And in a era of global people movement, I don't see people fleeing the U.S. to move to other countries.
So for me, this only boils down to one thing, and that’s having respect for your house. You may disagree with your family, sometimes vehemently, but you respect your house.
I had season tickets until I moved to the South in 1994. There were games where neither team would be on the sideline and it would just be a singer or a band playing the song.
That changed over the years where they would wait until both teams were on the sideline and every now and then you'd get the field-sized flag pulled across or a flyover of jets, but I got the impression, the anthem was there for the fans sake instead of the players.
This idea that players have always stood at attention hanging on every word of the Anthem is a myth and a poorly constructed one, trying to intimate that back then everything stopped for the minute the song lasted.
So pathetic.
And the ratings aren't down because of this issue. Sucking up to the military won't reverse the downward trend. All of us who see the real issues with the NFL will be proven right about that.
Because he sucks at them?
Exactly. He thanks God every day for being born in America. But he conveniently leaves out the being white part.
Some people will never get it.
they cannot force the players to stand and they cannot even really (as a league) say anything negative about the protests or they alienate their players.
now they try and lessen the offense some people may feel about the players chosen method of protest and it's viewed as transparent ploy at protecting their name/image.
damned if you do, damned if you don't.
as for the rest of the thread, just a little mircocosm of the country, no one cares about why anyone else feels they way they do, they just want to piss on it because they feel like they way they feel is the only possible right way to feel. everyone else is Hitler or a libtard.
This is a temper tantrum by over-indulged millionaires who don't appreciate where the butter for their bread comes from....
Neat little trick you have there. What am I am thinking right now, Mr. Kreskin?
How about a little thought experiment? If it were Eli Manning, Tom Brady and Philip Rivers kneeling for the national anthem to protest overtaxation, would they still be as ill-informed or unwilling to great change through traditional means? Or would they still be ungrateful and unpatriotic millionaire who don't appreciate where their bread is buttered?
I suspect many of the same people here who are upset would support them in their cause.
And being able to burn it is what makes the American experience truly exceptional.
I think we lose sight of the fact that they are symbols of all Americans....and the incredibly diverse nation we have. And of the rights, freedoms and obligations we have as citizens.
Politicizing symbolic patriotism has a long and dark history.
It might be a good time to remember Johnson's quote: "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."
It's a lazy way to protest, you don't really mean it, and you're not accomplishing anything, so shut up. Putting their jobs at risk and potentially millions of dollars isn't lazy. When's the last time you risked your career over a cause you believed in? It isn't a free speech issue. The NFL at any time could require that players stand but I imagine they don't want to fight that battle.
It's disrespectful to the greatest country on earth! People come here because it's better than their shitty country/circumstances, so shut up. It was a great country before sufferage. It was a great country during Jim Crow. People speaking out and protesting about these issues made it even better. Why we would ever stop trying to make our world better is beyond me.
If I made such a spectacle at my company, I'd be fired. And if my uncle had tits, he'd be my aunt.
It all pretty much seems to boil down to the same thing: You can protest, but do it in a way that I don't have to hear about it.
I think many of the folks kneeling for the anthem are misguided and misinformed about much of the issues they are concerned about, and I'm pretty sure that I would agree with them on what the proper "fix" is for the current problems we are experiencing- but I commend them for taking a stand and generating all of this talk/controversy...it's how change begins.
But as is too often the case - it is used to further partisan beliefs.
It is nice to know that one can demonstrate without being shot by a military sniper looking to keep people in line. Of course, I guess character assassination is a different thing altogether....
Quote:
And yet, people from all over the world, from every ethnic, social, political, and economic background want to come HERE. Where people can rise to heights in every corner of our society based on their ability.
Every country has issues, but I thank God every day that I was fortunate enough to be born an American. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
I'm well aware how fucked up other countries are. My family fled the CCCP in '79 and nearly three decades after the supposed perestroika, little has changed there. The day my family and I became naturalized citizens was probably the proudest day of my life.
You grew up here and the anthem and stars and stripes are a source of pride. That's great. For those of us who were born under religious, cultural, lingual, ethnic oppression under the banner of hammer and sickle, symbols don't mean a great deal.
The source of America's power isn't the flag. It's the Constitution - and specifically individual protections assured under the Bill of Rights. It's fluid and not static. You don't like the law your congress just passed? Go protest. Go try that in Moscow and you'll be joining the half dozen opposition party leaders Putin has locked up in the past 15 years. That's the best case scenario.
There are some similarities in what I've described above and the rhetoric from some elected official(s). Already we've seen the comingling of US political operatives and foreign provocateurs. We've seen the blurring of lines between branches of government. This has always happened to an extent, to be sure, but never this blatant. The final price would be an attack and dismantling of the free press. This has not happened but, once again, You be heard the rhetoric blowing that way for years.
Finally, many would argue that while no country is perfect - as you've said above - it's our obligation to seek to improve the lives of our citizens. All citizens. Acknowledging that systemic problems exist in the judicial system isn't enough. Knowing that middle class wages are stagnant while the income gap grows exponentially isn't enough. We witness what's seemingly become weekly events in our back yards where thousands our own citizens and children are gunned down indiscriminately. We mourn for a few days, are fed some talking points from a prominent lobby group via a congressional proxy and we move on.
Millions of Americans feel this isn't good enough and while you may not agree with the chosen form of protest, and are surely free to protest on your own, please don't conflate our ideas and values. Certainly don't patronize us by offering us a lecture on how much better the US is. Quite honestly, you wouldn't know. For all of our successes, there are countries to do some things better. Rather than take a pigheaded and ultra nationalist and protectionist POV, I think we'd be better served to be pragmatists rather than ideologues.
"...the Constitution - and specifically individual protections assured under the Bill of Rights. It's fluid and not static".
The Constitution is hardly "fluid". It means what it says. There are ways to change it (see Article V).
The nation started imperfectly (like most nations) but it was our Constitution that was the basis for correcting wrongs to minorities and women; and will be the basis for the remedy for any current injustices.
And I'm not trying to get this thread deleted either. Instead, I'd love it if BBI could give some threads life that can inform all of us, even if they veer toward the political at times. We cannot discuss almost anything of real importance here without it having some associated political themes. But those threads can be gold, despite a few assholes who can't do without name-calling. So, my philosophy would be to screw the assholes but keep the gold.
Yours seems to be to delete threads that could be controversial, except in those instances where you have something to say about the topic.
[quote] In comment 13698670 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
Is giving hot takes on black people not being oppressed in this country based on a few anecdotal experiences. Some people are really oblivious.
Exactly. He thanks God every day for being born in America. But he conveniently leaves out the being white part.
Some people will never get it.
+1
if the cost of freedom includes white guys walking around with 20 automatic guns why can't it also include black NFL players kneeling to protest police brutality during the playing of the national anthem?
[quote] In comment 13698670 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
Is giving hot takes on black people not being oppressed in this country based on a few anecdotal experiences. Some people are really oblivious.
Exactly. He thanks God every day for being born in America. But he conveniently leaves out the being white part.
Some people will never get it.
+1
if the cost of freedom includes white guys walking around with 20 automatic guns why can't it also include black NFL players kneeling to protest police brutality during the playing of the national anthem?
the 2nd amendment is color blind and automatic weapons are illegal, keep your ignorant memes on facebook
That being said, the “I have a black nephew” anecdote is one of the oldest tricks in the book ... and just incredibly naive. It’s a sad look for you.
The one thing I think we've tried to be consistent at recently is that once posts or posters get particularly politically partisan (i.e., naming or slamming parties, politicians, policies), that's the red line. The threads that I recall being deleted are the ones that got into that territory.
As Ray in Arlington mentioned to me several weeks ago, he said, "I'm not sure how you deal with this now that politics and the NFL have become intertwined."
It's a minefield. I think we've allowed these type of threads to continue as long as they didn't violate what I mentioned above. There have been quite a few threads in recent weeks on NFL ratings.
One could argue that we only support diversity of identity, not diversity of thought.
#comeatmebro
It's a lazy way to protest, you don't really mean it, and you're not accomplishing anything, so shut up. Putting their jobs at risk and potentially millions of dollars isn't lazy. When's the last time you risked your career over a cause you believed in? It isn't a free speech issue. The NFL at any time could require that players stand but I imagine they don't want to fight that battle.
It's disrespectful to the greatest country on earth! People come here because it's better than their shitty country/circumstances, so shut up. It was a great country before sufferage. It was a great country during Jim Crow. People speaking out and protesting about these issues made it even better. Why we would ever stop trying to make our world better is beyond me.
If I made such a spectacle at my company, I'd be fired. And if my uncle had tits, he'd be my aunt.
It all pretty much seems to boil down to the same thing: You can protest, but do it in a way that I don't have to hear about it.
I think many of the folks kneeling for the anthem are misguided and misinformed about much of the issues they are concerned about, and I'm pretty sure that I would agree with them on what the proper "fix" is for the current problems we are experiencing- but I commend them for taking a stand and generating all of this talk/controversy...it's how change begins.
Cam!!!
Where have you been all this time?
Quote:
In comment 13698584 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
And yet, people from all over the world, from every ethnic, social, political, and economic background want to come HERE. Where people can rise to heights in every corner of our society based on their ability.
Every country has issues, but I thank God every day that I was fortunate enough to be born an American. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
I'm well aware how fucked up other countries are. My family fled the CCCP in '79 and nearly three decades after the supposed perestroika, little has changed there. The day my family and I became naturalized citizens was probably the proudest day of my life.
You grew up here and the anthem and stars and stripes are a source of pride. That's great. For those of us who were born under religious, cultural, lingual, ethnic oppression under the banner of hammer and sickle, symbols don't mean a great deal.
The source of America's power isn't the flag. It's the Constitution - and specifically individual protections assured under the Bill of Rights. It's fluid and not static. You don't like the law your congress just passed? Go protest. Go try that in Moscow and you'll be joining the half dozen opposition party leaders Putin has locked up in the past 15 years. That's the best case scenario.
There are some similarities in what I've described above and the rhetoric from some elected official(s). Already we've seen the comingling of US political operatives and foreign provocateurs. We've seen the blurring of lines between branches of government. This has always happened to an extent, to be sure, but never this blatant. The final price would be an attack and dismantling of the free press. This has not happened but, once again, You be heard the rhetoric blowing that way for years.
Finally, many would argue that while no country is perfect - as you've said above - it's our obligation to seek to improve the lives of our citizens. All citizens. Acknowledging that systemic problems exist in the judicial system isn't enough. Knowing that middle class wages are stagnant while the income gap grows exponentially isn't enough. We witness what's seemingly become weekly events in our back yards where thousands our own citizens and children are gunned down indiscriminately. We mourn for a few days, are fed some talking points from a prominent lobby group via a congressional proxy and we move on.
Millions of Americans feel this isn't good enough and while you may not agree with the chosen form of protest, and are surely free to protest on your own, please don't conflate our ideas and values. Certainly don't patronize us by offering us a lecture on how much better the US is. Quite honestly, you wouldn't know. For all of our successes, there are countries to do some things better. Rather than take a pigheaded and ultra nationalist and protectionist POV, I think we'd be better served to be pragmatists rather than ideologues.
"...the Constitution - and specifically individual protections assured under the Bill of Rights. It's fluid and not static".
The Constitution is hardly "fluid". It means what it says. There are ways to change it (see Article V).
The nation started imperfectly (like most nations) but it was our Constitution that was the basis for correcting wrongs to minorities and women; and will be the basis for the remedy for any current injustices.
Thank you for articulating it better than I could. The point still stands.
Every country has issues, but I thank God every day that I was fortunate enough to be born an American. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
Universities are seeing a dramatic drop in foreign exchange students and admits, so this unfortunately is changing (after consistent rises for 40+ years)
It's true they have always stood, as Eric has pointed out. I've been to games before 2009, and NFL Films has always used players standing in their highlight reels.
But on national TV games before 2009 - specifically MNF games - players didn't necessarily stand because of some sort of timing issue with the game starting on time.
Also - I am very confused that such a small portion of the players - 2% - not standing could cause so much angst.
With all the other issues surrounding the NFL and it's players....there are plenty of other reasons to be disengaged with the game.
It's true they have always stood, as Eric has pointed out. I've been to games before 2009, and NFL Films has always used players standing in their highlight reels.
But on national TV games before 2009 - specifically MNF games - players didn't necessarily stand because of some sort of timing issue with the game starting on time.
Also - I am very confused that such a small portion of the players - 2% - not standing could cause so much angst.
With all the other issues surrounding the NFL and it's players....there are plenty of other reasons to be disengaged with the game.
I posed the very same issue to Eric earlier in the thread about there being a middle ground.
His response was something you'd expect from Winston Churchill during the Battle of Britain.
Quote:
for the Anthem.
It's true they have always stood, as Eric has pointed out. I've been to games before 2009, and NFL Films has always used players standing in their highlight reels.
But on national TV games before 2009 - specifically MNF games - players didn't necessarily stand because of some sort of timing issue with the game starting on time.
Also - I am very confused that such a small portion of the players - 2% - not standing could cause so much angst.
With all the other issues surrounding the NFL and it's players....there are plenty of other reasons to be disengaged with the game.
I posed the very same issue to Eric earlier in the thread about there being a middle ground.
His response was something you'd expect from Winston Churchill during the Battle of Britain.
If the players started doing some sort of protest during the game - the part you actually watch - they I think there's a problem that has to be corrected.
And there is precedence during the game - everyone remember Jim McMahon and his headbands?
Before the game? Is it really that big a deal? For about 15 players in the entire league? And where most of those 15 actually are doing stuff in their community as well?
Huge drop in foreign exchange students - ( New Window )
There are many factors in that...quality of the game has deteriorated, over-saturation, new CBA, rule changes, too many commercials. But mixing politics with sports was stupid. The NFL doesn't know its audience or chose to ignore it. The NFL could have easily avoided this whole thing. You see the same thing with ESPN, who is now set for another round of layoffs.
I disagree that the NFL could have avoided this........as PJ said in an earlier post, the NFL could have seriously driven a wedge between the players and owners/teams by requiring them to stand.
And there's also the whole CBA which probably would have brought about a lawsuit.
I actually think Goodel played it about as well as he could have.
So when you talk about the NFL taking a hit due to upset customers choosing to die on the national anthem hill, keep in mind our economy also takes hits from foreigners with money to spend choosing not to live and visit because of those people who want to die on the national anthem hill
Tourism taking a hit - ( New Window )
But for years the NFL could pretty much do/charge anything it wanted. PSL's subscriptions to Sunday Ticket , season tickets where the pre/season games cost as much as the regular season games and were rising meteorically and were required purchases and they STILL sold out.
CTE, the PSL's salaries not just for the players but everyone involved in the NFL (I'm thinking Goodell)and the commercials on tv to fund these are real problems facing the NFL now, all at once too.Throw the kneeling/America issue into this and people are finally saying fuck it and fuck this. I think the NFL needs to really refocus itself, there is no quick fix for this and if they don't rework this we may see the demise of the sport we all love so much.
+1
Quote:
You're ungrateful, you don't know how good you have it, so shut up. It's possible to recognize that you are living a charmed life, but still want to do something to improve it for yourself and others...that's what successful people do, keep working to improve.
It's a lazy way to protest, you don't really mean it, and you're not accomplishing anything, so shut up. Putting their jobs at risk and potentially millions of dollars isn't lazy. When's the last time you risked your career over a cause you believed in? It isn't a free speech issue. The NFL at any time could require that players stand but I imagine they don't want to fight that battle.
It's disrespectful to the greatest country on earth! People come here because it's better than their shitty country/circumstances, so shut up. It was a great country before sufferage. It was a great country during Jim Crow. People speaking out and protesting about these issues made it even better. Why we would ever stop trying to make our world better is beyond me.
If I made such a spectacle at my company, I'd be fired. And if my uncle had tits, he'd be my aunt.
It all pretty much seems to boil down to the same thing: You can protest, but do it in a way that I don't have to hear about it.
I think many of the folks kneeling for the anthem are misguided and misinformed about much of the issues they are concerned about, and I'm pretty sure that I would agree with them on what the proper "fix" is for the current problems we are experiencing- but I commend them for taking a stand and generating all of this talk/controversy...it's how change begins.
Cam!!!
Where have you been all this time?
Eh- I have a 2yr old ginger that keeps me busy. With him not having a soul, he's a crazy hell raiser- on the bright side, though- since he doesn't have a soul I don't have to feel guilty if I fuck up raising him.
I've also taken to stopping, saluting, and saying a prayer for America every time I come across an American flag. I'm sure you can imagine how time consuming that can be in the Midwest.
However, because Trump opened his mouth, if Goodell tries to enforce this, the players will sue and win the case in court because they would make the argument that Goodell/NFL/owners were coerced by the federal government to force them to stand for the anthem due to the threat of the players losing their jobs/employment
Meh, it's a valid point to make, and should be part of the discussion. However one must be careful to separate the bad actors from the actual issues...on both sides. It's unfortunately obvious that both sides routinely spit out inaccurate half-truths that have been fed to them by their respective bad actors.
However, because Trump opened his mouth, if Goodell tries to enforce this, the players will sue and win the case in court because they would make the argument that Goodell/NFL/owners were coerced by the federal government to force them to stand for the anthem due to the threat of the players losing their jobs/employment
Doubt it.
This was going on long before the President weighed in on it. As pointed out earlier, the NFL doesn't want to risk any sort of court battle, much less one that could potentially bring into question their status as a non-profit.
I've also taken to stopping, saluting, and saying a prayer for America every time I come across an American flag. I'm sure you can imagine how time consuming that can be in the Midwest.
Has it been twi years since you last posted? Congrats on the kid. Glad to have you back.