You've been watching? He sucks. He's physically overmatched on defense. His offensive game blows too. He's an easy guy for any NBA player to defend. An easy matchup.
If you haven't seen it yet you've got your Laker cheerleading glasses on. You need more time?
Lakers picked the wrong guy. Here is Tatum making a simple play that Ball will never make. Just slide right and shoot. Simple. A basic move for any player. He can't do it.
once every week or two when he has a good game and the Lakers win. Lonzo sucks, sorry.
Well, you certainly won't hear from him when Ball has his more typical (at this point) 2 for 9 shooting night and let's hisnopposite spot up for clean jumpers.
is ludicrous. Kidd was never a good shooter, especially early in his career, but he could always handle the ball, get to the rim, and play defense, 3 things Lonzo has shown zero ability to do. Now name one thing Lonzo does better than Kidd?
The more people comment about Lonzo playing zero defense,
the one part of his game that has surprised nearly all basketball watchers so far, the more I realize people simply check box scores and single out the gifs of players when they get beat before stating their opinion.
Credit where credit is due goes out the window when we don't like a player (or their parents (childish)).
People keep changing the narrative. He shot a low percentage, his 16 boards (most for a rookie guard since 2000, tied Embiid's career high) and 11 assists don't count I guess. It's also important to only note his +/- when it's in the negative. Otherwise it doesn't matter.
KWALL asked if we need to actually see more before cementing the current opinion on Lonzo as fact. 20 years old, 17 games into his career, I'd say it would be nice to wait a little longer.
Wasn't crazy about him walking away from his teammates in the skirmish. Not a good look.
But he appears to be a pretty good pro, and just 20.
As a Knicks fan, I'm really excited about how Frank is beginning to blossom a bit. Different person, different style. And I'm glad the Knicks have Frank and lot Lonzo (all things considered - yes, I'm childish and wouldn't want to have his father in the picture for years to come) ... but all in all, he looks like a keeper.
It started after game 3 or 4 when he posted about Ball being the leading rookie of the year after the Suns game. That was a joke. But he's consistent with this joke. Looks like we'll have a Ball thread every 8-10 days from Stan.
Credit where credit is due goes out the window when we don't like a player (or their parents (childish)).
People keep changing the narrative. He shot a low percentage, his 16 boards (most for a rookie guard since 2000, tied Embiid's career high) and 11 assists don't count I guess. It's also important to only note his +/- when it's in the negative. Otherwise it doesn't matter.
KWALL asked if we need to actually see more before cementing the current opinion on Lonzo as fact. 20 years old, 17 games into his career, I'd say it would be nice to wait a little longer.
Not sure Dak is the best comp. Have you seen him this season? Especially without Zeke and with "only" 2 all-pros in front of him.
Dak = Alex Smith
Wentz, unfortunately, is going to be a good one (already is).
Credit where credit is due goes out the window when we don't like a player (or their parents (childish)).
People keep changing the narrative. He shot a low percentage, his 16 boards (most for a rookie guard since 2000, tied Embiid's career high) and 11 assists don't count I guess. It's also important to only note his +/- when it's in the negative. Otherwise it doesn't matter.
KWALL asked if we need to actually see more before cementing the current opinion on Lonzo as fact. 20 years old, 17 games into his career, I'd say it would be nice to wait a little longer.
Filthy,
In fairness, the narrative has less to do with Lonzo's game as much as it does with Stan showing up to puff out his chest for Ball's occasional good game while not even returning to his own threads to reply when Ball has (much more frequent) poor games. And then bragging about how he's always right.
This is every bit as much about Stan's douchebaggery as it is about Lonzo Ball's development, if not more. I feel like Stan makes Lonzo even more unlikable than LaVar Ball does. That's really the issue. Would people still dog Lonzo because of his dad? Of course. But Stan just amplifies it.
to evaluate Lonzo's game, but his struggles aren't so much about missed shots, but in how he's missing them; not so much in that he struggles to handle the ball, but moreso that he refuses to do it. Those are huge red flags. Fixable? Sure, but not without a ton of work.
Steph Curry remade his game and his body while in the NBA, so it can be done, but Steph was always a lights out shooter. Lonzo can tighten his ballhandling with some work, but his shooting needs to be completely overhauled. He can't create his own shot, hell, he can't even make open shots!
Every superstar does at least 1 thing at an elite level
what does ball do that is elite? if you are going to be a superstar in this league you have to change the game in some way...
In fairness, I'd say his court vision is elite, and his rebounding is above average. It's just that, right now, other basic parts of his game are severely lacking.
I'm fine with people dumping on Stan and usually take part. Howevah this same Lonzo conversation has been going on on BBI since before the draft. Stan posting an I told you so after every positive Lonzo moment is the same as the I told you so posts when he is 0 for 2 in a quarter.
RE: RE: Every superstar does at least 1 thing at an elite level
what does ball do that is elite? if you are going to be a superstar in this league you have to change the game in some way...
In fairness, I'd say his court vision is elite, and his rebounding is above average. It's just that, right now, other basic parts of his game are severely lacking.
he has great vision but he cant break down a defense, so that kind of mitigates his great vision
I'm fine with people dumping on Stan and usually take part. Howevah this same Lonzo conversation has been going on on BBI since before the draft. Stan posting an I told you so after every positive Lonzo moment is the same as the I told you so posts when he is 0 for 2 in a quarter.
Except Stan's posts are far less frequent! :)
RE: Every superstar does at least 1 thing at an elite level
what does ball do that is elite? if you are going to be a superstar in this league you have to change the game in some way...
How many 20 year old rookies have elite skills? He has some skills that could develop and become elite.
Whether he becomes a superstar or not will depend on whether or not he can fix his considerable flaws. Even if he was an elite penetrator, his effectiveness would be muted if he can't even knock down open 3s (see Rondo).
are overrated, just like Westbrook's. They are primarily defensive rebounds, where the team has him get them by design so that he can push the pace on offense.
They should be credited that their teams want them to have the ball from the outset of a possession, but there's nothing inherently impressive about him getting those team defensive rebounds.
the team purposely has him crash the boards because they want the ball in his hands as soon as possible. Teammates are not boxing out the opposition and refusing to make an attempt to grab a rebound themselves while hoping Lonzo pulls it down. His effort, hustle and work on the boards has been impressive.
If he was averaging 5 blocks per game we'd hear that those are overrated because for all we know the shooter is purposely throwing it into Ball's hand.
RE: RE: Every superstar does at least 1 thing at an elite level
what does ball do that is elite? if you are going to be a superstar in this league you have to change the game in some way...
How many 20 year old rookies have elite skills? He has some skills that could develop and become elite.
Whether he becomes a superstar or not will depend on whether or not he can fix his considerable flaws. Even if he was an elite penetrator, his effectiveness would be muted if he can't even knock down open 3s (see Rondo).
there are players that come out of nowhere ie kawhi or butler but a lot of times you can see what a player is great at right away...
it may be inconsistent but a great player you can see the aspect that js going to make them specjal right away...
the team purposely has him crash the boards because they want the ball in his hands as soon as possible. Teammates are not boxing out the opposition and refusing to make an attempt to grab a rebound themselves while hoping Lonzo pulls it down. His effort, hustle and work on the boards has been impressive.
If he was averaging 5 blocks per game we'd hear that those are overrated because for all we know the shooter is purposely throwing it into Ball's hand.
let me ask you a question, if ball was to become a cornerstone franchise player for the lakers that he was toutrd to be, what part of his game is going to make him that? what has he shown glimpses of that makes you confident that he can live up to that hype...
I'd argue if a skill is "inconsistent" then it's not "elite".
You could also argue that a players other flaws (e.g. difficulty penetrating) could be the reason for those inconsistencies. Thus, if Ball improves his penetrating, his floor vision which has shown flashes of being elite, could go from an inconsistent skill to an elite skill.
But if he doesn't improve his shooting significantly, he's closer to Rondo than Kidd/Magic.
are overrated, just like Westbrook's. They are primarily defensive rebounds, where the team has him get them by design so that he can push the pace on offense.
They should be credited that their teams want them to have the ball from the outset of a possession, but there's nothing inherently impressive about him getting those team defensive rebounds.
You guys are making me into a Ball defender and I don't want to be, lol.
Ball is third among all guards in ORB. And designing a system so your guard get rebounds to start a break is not a thing. Rebounding is a Knack and of all of Ball's attributes, I think rebounding is his most reliable. He looks for them and has a knack of getting them.
I'd argue if a skill is "inconsistent" then it's not "elite".
You could also argue that a players other flaws (e.g. difficulty penetrating) could be the reason for those inconsistencies. Thus, if Ball improves his penetrating, his floor vision which has shown flashes of being elite, could go from an inconsistent skill to an elite skill.
But if he doesn't improve his shooting significantly, he's closer to Rondo than Kidd/Magic.
inconsistent was the wrong word to use but you can absolutely see star qualities in rookies..
again there are absolutely examples of players coming out of nowhere
nygiants16 : 11:32 am : link : reply
let me ask you a question, if ball was to become a cornerstone franchise player for the lakers that he was toutrd to be, what part of his game is going to make him that? what has he shown glimpses of that makes you confident that he can live up to that hype...
Well, I didn't come in with thoughts about him being a franchise player. Two things that can't be taught, vision and athleticism. He has one of those. He is still learning how to play in the halfcourt. The fact that he is missing wide open shots tells me it's mental, which he said as much. That should eventually normalize and when it does he should (but won't be) considered a very, very good player.
An average shot combined with his vision, rebounding and surprising defense (for those who watch) will make him a very valuable player who can make those around him better. Doesn't have to end up as a cornerstone hall of famer to make his mark for this franchise. I don't listen to what dads or front office folks say who are simply trying to either improve your kid's draft status or fire up a fan base.
it's that he cannot create them. You can gloss it over as him pressing, but it is a lot more than that. His poor handle and lack of athleticism makes it difficult for him to be a penetrator, and for him to create his own shot, he's going to have to learn to shoot it from somewhere else than that ugly set shot from his chest.
It can be done, but it's going to take a lot of work. He can tighten his ballhandling and get stronger, both of which will help him get to the rim, but he has to learn how to shoot when he gets there. He has to be the first PG I've seen who doesn't handle the ball.
that was supposed to be his #1 weakness coming in yet has turned into the biggest surprise. He is still learning and makes mistakes. Needs to get better at communicating and sometimes makes the right call but in the wrong fashion. For instance trying to funnel his man into a trap but doing so to the left when he should have had him go right, vice versa, etc etc.
It is also very difficult to rate a players defensive game on stats alone. Way too many factors are not taken into account. The eye test helps but again, factors. The viewer has no idea what the scheme was supposed to be on the play.
For those who care about stats, this post is stolen from Reddit:
Quote:
Lonzo is currently 6th in DRtg amongst guards, 4th amongst rookies and 26th in the league.
Criteria: at least 10 MP/G, minimum 5 games played. Any less wouldn't be a suitable enough sample size.
Amongst guards: bbal reference
Amongst rookies: bball reference
In the league: bball reference
BrettNYG10 : 12:04 pm : link : reply
I think we all thought that he'd be a good #2 piece in 2018-2019 behind LeBron in 18-19 and a great #3 piece once we get Porzingis in a S&T in 2019.
Might not have to wait that long for Porzingis. Just need Magic to convince the Knicks how much they need Deng and his contract.
Tatum is ten times the player Ball is
He's consistently overmatched. It's only going to get worse his 2nd and 3rd time around the league.
Enjoy your triple double.
He's consistently overmatched. It's only going to get worse his 2nd and 3rd time around the league.
Enjoy your triple double.
lol ok
If you haven't seen it yet you've got your Laker cheerleading glasses on. You need more time?
Lakers picked the wrong guy. Here is Tatum making a simple play that Ball will never make. Just slide right and shoot. Simple. A basic move for any player. He can't do it.
Ball can't get this shot off.
It's one of many issues he has.
Always.
But shooting 30% and 22% from 3? that's bad.
Credit where credit is due goes out the window when we don't like a player (or their parents (childish)).
People keep changing the narrative. He shot a low percentage, his 16 boards (most for a rookie guard since 2000, tied Embiid's career high) and 11 assists don't count I guess. It's also important to only note his +/- when it's in the negative. Otherwise it doesn't matter.
KWALL asked if we need to actually see more before cementing the current opinion on Lonzo as fact. 20 years old, 17 games into his career, I'd say it would be nice to wait a little longer.
But he appears to be a pretty good pro, and just 20.
As a Knicks fan, I'm really excited about how Frank is beginning to blossom a bit. Different person, different style. And I'm glad the Knicks have Frank and lot Lonzo (all things considered - yes, I'm childish and wouldn't want to have his father in the picture for years to come) ... but all in all, he looks like a keeper.
It started after game 3 or 4 when he posted about Ball being the leading rookie of the year after the Suns game. That was a joke. But he's consistent with this joke. Looks like we'll have a Ball thread every 8-10 days from Stan.
Credit where credit is due goes out the window when we don't like a player (or their parents (childish)).
People keep changing the narrative. He shot a low percentage, his 16 boards (most for a rookie guard since 2000, tied Embiid's career high) and 11 assists don't count I guess. It's also important to only note his +/- when it's in the negative. Otherwise it doesn't matter.
KWALL asked if we need to actually see more before cementing the current opinion on Lonzo as fact. 20 years old, 17 games into his career, I'd say it would be nice to wait a little longer.
Not sure Dak is the best comp. Have you seen him this season? Especially without Zeke and with "only" 2 all-pros in front of him.
Dak = Alex Smith
Wentz, unfortunately, is going to be a good one (already is).
Credit where credit is due goes out the window when we don't like a player (or their parents (childish)).
People keep changing the narrative. He shot a low percentage, his 16 boards (most for a rookie guard since 2000, tied Embiid's career high) and 11 assists don't count I guess. It's also important to only note his +/- when it's in the negative. Otherwise it doesn't matter.
KWALL asked if we need to actually see more before cementing the current opinion on Lonzo as fact. 20 years old, 17 games into his career, I'd say it would be nice to wait a little longer.
Filthy,
In fairness, the narrative has less to do with Lonzo's game as much as it does with Stan showing up to puff out his chest for Ball's occasional good game while not even returning to his own threads to reply when Ball has (much more frequent) poor games. And then bragging about how he's always right.
This is every bit as much about Stan's douchebaggery as it is about Lonzo Ball's development, if not more. I feel like Stan makes Lonzo even more unlikable than LaVar Ball does. That's really the issue. Would people still dog Lonzo because of his dad? Of course. But Stan just amplifies it.
Steph Curry remade his game and his body while in the NBA, so it can be done, but Steph was always a lights out shooter. Lonzo can tighten his ballhandling with some work, but his shooting needs to be completely overhauled. He can't create his own shot, hell, he can't even make open shots!
In fairness, I'd say his court vision is elite, and his rebounding is above average. It's just that, right now, other basic parts of his game are severely lacking.
Quote:
what does ball do that is elite? if you are going to be a superstar in this league you have to change the game in some way...
In fairness, I'd say his court vision is elite, and his rebounding is above average. It's just that, right now, other basic parts of his game are severely lacking.
he has great vision but he cant break down a defense, so that kind of mitigates his great vision
Except Stan's posts are far less frequent! :)
How many 20 year old rookies have elite skills? He has some skills that could develop and become elite.
Whether he becomes a superstar or not will depend on whether or not he can fix his considerable flaws. Even if he was an elite penetrator, his effectiveness would be muted if he can't even knock down open 3s (see Rondo).
They should be credited that their teams want them to have the ball from the outset of a possession, but there's nothing inherently impressive about him getting those team defensive rebounds.
If he was averaging 5 blocks per game we'd hear that those are overrated because for all we know the shooter is purposely throwing it into Ball's hand.
Quote:
what does ball do that is elite? if you are going to be a superstar in this league you have to change the game in some way...
How many 20 year old rookies have elite skills? He has some skills that could develop and become elite.
Whether he becomes a superstar or not will depend on whether or not he can fix his considerable flaws. Even if he was an elite penetrator, his effectiveness would be muted if he can't even knock down open 3s (see Rondo).
there are players that come out of nowhere ie kawhi or butler but a lot of times you can see what a player is great at right away...
it may be inconsistent but a great player you can see the aspect that js going to make them specjal right away...
If he was averaging 5 blocks per game we'd hear that those are overrated because for all we know the shooter is purposely throwing it into Ball's hand.
let me ask you a question, if ball was to become a cornerstone franchise player for the lakers that he was toutrd to be, what part of his game is going to make him that? what has he shown glimpses of that makes you confident that he can live up to that hype...
right now i dont see it..
You could also argue that a players other flaws (e.g. difficulty penetrating) could be the reason for those inconsistencies. Thus, if Ball improves his penetrating, his floor vision which has shown flashes of being elite, could go from an inconsistent skill to an elite skill.
But if he doesn't improve his shooting significantly, he's closer to Rondo than Kidd/Magic.
They should be credited that their teams want them to have the ball from the outset of a possession, but there's nothing inherently impressive about him getting those team defensive rebounds.
You guys are making me into a Ball defender and I don't want to be, lol.
Ball is third among all guards in ORB. And designing a system so your guard get rebounds to start a break is not a thing. Rebounding is a Knack and of all of Ball's attributes, I think rebounding is his most reliable. He looks for them and has a knack of getting them.
You could also argue that a players other flaws (e.g. difficulty penetrating) could be the reason for those inconsistencies. Thus, if Ball improves his penetrating, his floor vision which has shown flashes of being elite, could go from an inconsistent skill to an elite skill.
But if he doesn't improve his shooting significantly, he's closer to Rondo than Kidd/Magic.
inconsistent was the wrong word to use but you can absolutely see star qualities in rookies..
again there are absolutely examples of players coming out of nowhere
let me ask you a question, if ball was to become a cornerstone franchise player for the lakers that he was toutrd to be, what part of his game is going to make him that? what has he shown glimpses of that makes you confident that he can live up to that hype...
Well, I didn't come in with thoughts about him being a franchise player. Two things that can't be taught, vision and athleticism. He has one of those. He is still learning how to play in the halfcourt. The fact that he is missing wide open shots tells me it's mental, which he said as much. That should eventually normalize and when it does he should (but won't be) considered a very, very good player.
An average shot combined with his vision, rebounding and surprising defense (for those who watch) will make him a very valuable player who can make those around him better. Doesn't have to end up as a cornerstone hall of famer to make his mark for this franchise. I don't listen to what dads or front office folks say who are simply trying to either improve your kid's draft status or fire up a fan base.
if frank becomes a star it will be his defense..
if monk becomes a star it will be his shooting and scoring ability..
for tatum he just has it, he can score and he can play multiple positions, will be interesting to see if he can become a go to scorer..
markannen is his shooting..
ball what is it?
It can be done, but it's going to take a lot of work. He can tighten his ballhandling and get stronger, both of which will help him get to the rim, but he has to learn how to shoot when he gets there. He has to be the first PG I've seen who doesn't handle the ball.
It is also very difficult to rate a players defensive game on stats alone. Way too many factors are not taken into account. The eye test helps but again, factors. The viewer has no idea what the scheme was supposed to be on the play.
For those who care about stats, this post is stolen from Reddit:
Criteria: at least 10 MP/G, minimum 5 games played. Any less wouldn't be a suitable enough sample size.
Amongst guards: bbal reference
Amongst rookies: bball reference
In the league: bball reference
I think we all thought that he'd be a good #2 piece in 2018-2019 behind LeBron in 18-19 and a great #3 piece once we get Porzingis in a S&T in 2019.
I think we all thought that he'd be a good #2 piece in 2018-2019 behind LeBron in 18-19 and a great #3 piece once we get Porzingis in a S&T in 2019.
Might not have to wait that long for Porzingis. Just need Magic to convince the Knicks how much they need Deng and his contract.