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Credit goes to Eli, the team's leader and QB of the future

NYGmen58 : 11/20/2017 8:43 am
Yes the offense was pretty awful yesterday but it was hard not to be impressed by how #10 kept everything together and moved the ball with no turnovers and playing with 3 undrafted WRs and a bad game out of Engram.

Did you notice the roar he got from the locker room when he was called to break it down after the game? There's no question who that team sees as it's quarterback and leader.

With that said, I acknowledge the Giants have to start planning for life after Eli at some point, although I still think it's a year to soon. This guy has at least 2-3 years left of playing at high level. Besides, I don't see anybody in college right now who has even close to the same upside as Manning. If this team fixes it's offensive line and improves the running game for next year, watch out! Eli will again be one of the game's best QBs.

Here's to our golden boy, or as my family and I refer to him as: "the guy who does everything right".
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RE: RE: # 10 is everthing for me,  
BIGbluegermany : 11/20/2017 9:54 am : link
In comment 13698865 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 13698836 BIGbluegermany said:


Quote:


give him the last two years of his contract.He is still the face of the franchise, a pure sportsman. I never heard him talking bad about teamates or coaches.A true Giant!!!



Would you give up the possibility of making the playoffs in 2019 to give Eli one more year?


No,but i believe we can make the playoffs again with Eli.And i know his time will come to an end someday.
RE: RE: RE: # 10 is everthing for me,  
ajr2456 : 11/20/2017 9:57 am : link
In comment 13698891 BIGbluegermany said:
Quote:
In comment 13698865 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 13698836 BIGbluegermany said:


Quote:


give him the last two years of his contract.He is still the face of the franchise, a pure sportsman. I never heard him talking bad about teamates or coaches.A true Giant!!!



Would you give up the possibility of making the playoffs in 2019 to give Eli one more year?



No,but i believe we can make the playoffs again with Eli.And i know his time will come to an end someday.


As unfortunate as it sounds, you're not making the playoffs in 2019 with a 39 year Eli. Maybe not with a second year player at QB either, but Eli is going to continue to decline.
you can still win with Eli  
djm : 11/20/2017 9:57 am : link
but you have to build an offense around Eli that caters to his strengths and hides his weaknesses. If the Giants love a QB in this coming draft, get him at all costs. Eli holds things down as long as he can. Simple as that.

Eli is fine but the Giants need to wake the fuck up and stop with this popgun chuck and duck horse shit offensive system. Get Eli a running game that actually breaks a big play once every month. Upgrade the OL. Go from there.

Eli could in fact play another 3-4 years. But he needs help.
Yes, you can still win with Eli  
NorwoodWideRight : 11/20/2017 10:04 am : link
under perfect conditions. He needs time, a pocket that doesn't collapse and athletic, big receivers who can jump up and get the ball and sometimes make acrobatic catches.
You can still win with Eli  
JonC : 11/20/2017 10:08 am : link
and potentially draft his successor with the rare opportunity of a top 3-5 pick.
I'm with you NYGmen58  
Powerclean765 : 11/20/2017 10:08 am : link
Eli can still play & I believe he will play out his contract. Mara will not choose Jerry or McAdoo over Eli. Then Webb: 6'5", strong arm, Film junkie, lives & breathes football. All we hear is how impressive he's been. I see no reason to bring in another guy - we may have our Dad Prescott here when needed.

I know we all have opinions on the future: I'd like to see a power run game. Flowers, re-sign Fluker. Keep winning some games - target Quenton Nelson in the draft (special player). Let Eli work play action behind these monsters in a good run scheme.

Eli has always been a terrible fit in a WCO. He is not a Kurt Warner, hit guys on the run with short passes guy. Go back to a more traditional play action, drop back scheme that emphasizes pulling the S up and getting chunk completions, with Eli throwing to spots.

I think we have the OL to run this kind of scheme.

Wheeler - Quenton Nelson - Brett Jones - Fluker - Flowers

I believe this is an OL that could wear teams out in the type of scheme I'm describing above! Just one fan's opinion on the direction of the offense moving forward.
RE: you can still win with Eli  
ajr2456 : 11/20/2017 10:13 am : link
In comment 13698900 djm said:
Quote:
but you have to build an offense around Eli that caters to his strengths and hides his weaknesses. If the Giants love a QB in this coming draft, get him at all costs. Eli holds things down as long as he can. Simple as that.

Eli is fine but the Giants need to wake the fuck up and stop with this popgun chuck and duck horse shit offensive system. Get Eli a running game that actually breaks a big play once every month. Upgrade the OL. Go from there.

Eli could in fact play another 3-4 years. But he needs help.


His deep ball has been in decline for the past few years which is why they switched to a WCO.
RE: You can still win with Eli  
BIGbluegermany : 11/20/2017 10:26 am : link
In comment 13698922 JonC said:
Quote:
and potentially draft his successor with the rare opportunity of a top 3-5 pick.


Of course, but i think we are not forced to take a QB.
How does Eli receive  
BBelle21 : 11/20/2017 10:38 am : link
More criticism by some after a win and after a game where his leadership is there to see in plain sight? Are some disappointed?
RE: RE: You can still win with Eli  
JonC : 11/20/2017 10:46 am : link
In comment 13698965 BIGbluegermany said:
Quote:
In comment 13698922 JonC said:


Quote:


and potentially draft his successor with the rare opportunity of a top 3-5 pick.



Of course, but i think we are not forced to take a QB.


Not forced, but very likely the value of QB at that pick will be significantly higher than other positions, given the regard for Darnold and Rosen, in particular.
RE: How does Eli receive  
JonC : 11/20/2017 10:46 am : link
In comment 13698996 BBelle21 said:
Quote:
More criticism by some after a win and after a game where his leadership is there to see in plain sight? Are some disappointed?


Yes, it does go against the narrative of some posters.
RE: RE: you can still win with Eli  
JCin332 : 11/20/2017 11:23 am : link
In comment 13698932 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 13698900 djm said:


Quote:


but you have to build an offense around Eli that caters to his strengths and hides his weaknesses. If the Giants love a QB in this coming draft, get him at all costs. Eli holds things down as long as he can. Simple as that.

Eli is fine but the Giants need to wake the fuck up and stop with this popgun chuck and duck horse shit offensive system. Get Eli a running game that actually breaks a big play once every month. Upgrade the OL. Go from there.

Eli could in fact play another 3-4 years. But he needs help.



His deep ball has been in decline for the past few years which is why they switched to a WCO.


That is not why they made the switch and I disagree his deep ball is in decline...

Give him consistent time and you will see...
If Eli is our QB of the future  
Modus Operandi : 11/20/2017 11:25 am : link
The future is bleak. Else we'd better get cracking on finding that Fountain of Youth.
The future 6 games  
BigBlue4You09 : 11/20/2017 11:29 am : link
and maybe next year, that's about it.
RE: RE: RE: you can still win with Eli  
ajr2456 : 11/20/2017 11:34 am : link
In comment 13699103 JCin332 said:
Quote:
In comment 13698932 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 13698900 djm said:


Quote:


but you have to build an offense around Eli that caters to his strengths and hides his weaknesses. If the Giants love a QB in this coming draft, get him at all costs. Eli holds things down as long as he can. Simple as that.

Eli is fine but the Giants need to wake the fuck up and stop with this popgun chuck and duck horse shit offensive system. Get Eli a running game that actually breaks a big play once every month. Upgrade the OL. Go from there.

Eli could in fact play another 3-4 years. But he needs help.



His deep ball has been in decline for the past few years which is why they switched to a WCO.



That is not why they made the switch and I disagree his deep ball is in decline...

Give him consistent time and you will see...


23-78 last year, with 6 TDS, and 6 INT, 22nd in the league

10-38 this year, with 3 TDS and 6 INT, 30th in the league, with 1 drop.

He was 5-21 before everyone got hurt, with only 1 drop.

They hired Ben to up Eli's completion percentage, and take advantage of shorter, quicker passes. Why else would they do that?
RE: RE: RE: RE: you can still win with Eli  
ajr2456 : 11/20/2017 11:38 am : link
In comment 13699126 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 13699103 JCin332 said:


Quote:


In comment 13698932 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 13698900 djm said:


Quote:


but you have to build an offense around Eli that caters to his strengths and hides his weaknesses. If the Giants love a QB in this coming draft, get him at all costs. Eli holds things down as long as he can. Simple as that.

Eli is fine but the Giants need to wake the fuck up and stop with this popgun chuck and duck horse shit offensive system. Get Eli a running game that actually breaks a big play once every month. Upgrade the OL. Go from there.

Eli could in fact play another 3-4 years. But he needs help.



His deep ball has been in decline for the past few years which is why they switched to a WCO.



That is not why they made the switch and I disagree his deep ball is in decline...

Give him consistent time and you will see...



23-78 last year, with 6 TDS, and 6 INT, 22nd in the league

10-38 this year, with 3 TDS and 6 INT, 30th in the league, with 1 drop.

He was 5-21 before everyone got hurt, with only 1 drop.

They hired Ben to up Eli's completion percentage, and take advantage of shorter, quicker passes. Why else would they do that?


Is 14th in the league this year in attempts, and was 4th last year in deep passing attempts.
Eli has declined  
Bleedblue10 : 11/20/2017 11:39 am : link
We can all see it. Some donít wanna admit it because he still can make plays and gives us the best chance right now. But heís gonna be 37 and picking in the top 5 doesnít happen every year(hopefully). Biggest problem I see is that he has no room for error in this offense. He only gets a few chances each game to make a big play with these guys and if he doesnít make those 2-3 throws then heís called terrible and he needs to go. I for one want to draft our qb of the future but itís more about his age and direction of the team than his declining skills. I donít think you rebuild with a 37 year old qb. But to blame Eli for this offense is just not right. He has no margin for error and is probably in the worst situation of any qb in the NFL
33% of Eli's deep passes  
ajr2456 : 11/20/2017 11:44 am : link
in 2016 were deemed uncatchable by PFF
RE: 33% of Eli's deep passes  
JCin332 : 11/20/2017 11:47 am : link
In comment 13699153 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
in 2016 were deemed uncatchable by PFF


Again you would have to look at each one I individually to see where blame should be correctly placed...
RE: 33% of Eli's deep passes  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2017 11:49 am : link
In comment 13699153 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
in 2016 were deemed uncatchable by PFF


Can you link to that, please?
RE: RE: 33% of Eli's deep passes  
ajr2456 : 11/20/2017 11:54 am : link
In comment 13699164 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13699153 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


in 2016 were deemed uncatchable by PFF



Can you link to that, please?


It's part of the paid service so the link won't work
RE: Guys, by  
Mike from Ohio : 11/20/2017 11:57 am : link
In comment 13698867 NYGmen58 said:
Quote:
Obviously I realize the guy isn't playing until he's 50.

I guarantee those disagreeing with me or criticizing Eli on this thread are all under the age of 30.


Wrong.

The people disagreeing with you are not blinded by emotion.
RE: RE: RE: 33% of Eli's deep passes  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2017 11:59 am : link
In comment 13699182 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 13699164 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13699153 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


in 2016 were deemed uncatchable by PFF



Can you link to that, please?



It's part of the paid service so the link won't work


Then how about a little context?

A. What qualifies as a deep pass?
B. How does that compare to other QB's in 2016?
RE: RE: RE: you can still win with Eli  
Mike from Ohio : 11/20/2017 12:01 pm : link
In comment 13699103 JCin332 said:
Quote:
In comment 13698932 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 13698900 djm said:


Quote:


but you have to build an offense around Eli that caters to his strengths and hides his weaknesses. If the Giants love a QB in this coming draft, get him at all costs. Eli holds things down as long as he can. Simple as that.

Eli is fine but the Giants need to wake the fuck up and stop with this popgun chuck and duck horse shit offensive system. Get Eli a running game that actually breaks a big play once every month. Upgrade the OL. Go from there.

Eli could in fact play another 3-4 years. But he needs help.



His deep ball has been in decline for the past few years which is why they switched to a WCO.



That is not why they made the switch and I disagree his deep ball is in decline...

Give him consistent time and you will see...


How many starting NFL QBs can't deliver a good deep ball if given "consistent time?" The answer is roughly zero. I love Eli and you can still win with him, but it is time to start planning the post-Eli era.
RE: RE: RE: RE: 33% of Eli's deep passes  
ajr2456 : 11/20/2017 12:02 pm : link
In comment 13699194 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13699182 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 13699164 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13699153 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


in 2016 were deemed uncatchable by PFF



Can you link to that, please?



It's part of the paid service so the link won't work



Then how about a little context?

A. What qualifies as a deep pass?
B. How does that compare to other QB's in 2016?


Targets of more than 20 yards downfield.

The way PFF lists the stats makes B tough. The uncatchable stats are under WR stats, so in order to figure out where it ranks in terms of 2016 qbs I'd have to export each teams WR stats, tally them up by team and then rank them.

Possibly something I can do later in the week.
So if 33% were uncatchable....  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2017 12:04 pm : link
That means 2/3 passes over 20 yards were catchable. Not a bad average on a deep throw, without knowing any more context.
RE: So if 33% were uncatchable....  
ajr2456 : 11/20/2017 12:06 pm : link
In comment 13699214 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
That means 2/3 passes over 20 yards were catchable. Not a bad average on a deep throw, without knowing any more context.


PFF doesn't give much insight into how they determine it even with the paid model which is frustrating, thankfully my job paid for it.

The uncatchable number could not count ones where they deem the WR ran the wrong route, but it's impossible to know.
I donít think Eli is playing at a high level......  
Simms11 : 11/20/2017 12:10 pm : link
Heís been adequate, but heís missed far too many throws this year. I think he still shows the arm strength, but I think his best years are behind him. Heís still a quality QB with a solid Oline and receivers that donít drop the ball.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: 33% of Eli's deep passes  
ajr2456 : 11/20/2017 12:13 pm : link
In comment 13699204 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 13699194 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13699182 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 13699164 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13699153 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


in 2016 were deemed uncatchable by PFF



Can you link to that, please?



It's part of the paid service so the link won't work



Then how about a little context?

A. What qualifies as a deep pass?
B. How does that compare to other QB's in 2016?



Targets of more than 20 yards downfield.

The way PFF lists the stats makes B tough. The uncatchable stats are under WR stats, so in order to figure out where it ranks in terms of 2016 qbs I'd have to export each teams WR stats, tally them up by team and then rank them.

Possibly something I can do later in the week.


Actually those numbers are off, 2017 is for some reason listed as uncatchable while 2016 is listed as catchable.

I'll put this ranking together and make a thread.
RE: not how i saw it...  
clatterbuck : 11/20/2017 12:16 pm : link
In comment 13698739 GiantNatty said:
Quote:
they won despite eli. again, i love eli, but he looks dreadful out there. awful. he is the single biggest reason for the offense's continued dysfunction and there's really no other way to see it at this point.

you can change the GM and you can change the HC, but if Eli is the quarterback next year, it will be the same story as this year. never mind the league, he's the worst quarterback in the division . . . by far.


Sorry, this comment borders on nonsense. How many dropped passes yeterday, including a couple that should have been big plays? One big play to Engram taken away by a questionable at best PI call. Another walk-off game-winning drive. C'mon, man.
yup Eli is the QB of the future  
micky : 11/20/2017 12:43 pm : link
he has at least 10-15 years left playing at high level. So Davis Webb will have time to learn and be ready in 2032-33 season
Britt  
ajr2456 : 11/20/2017 1:00 pm : link
Eli's 2016 deep ball ranks:

5th most attempts (71)
4th most uncatchable (25)
Tied for 3rd worst uncatchable % (50.56%). Only behind Pittsburgh and Jacksonville and tied with the Jets, Arizona, and the Browns.

An interesting correlation: 7 of the 12 playoff teams ranked in the top 12 in terms of catchable deep ball %. Only 3 of the 12 playoff teams ranked in the top 10 of deep ball attempts (Pitt, GB, NYG).
RE: Britt  
ajr2456 : 11/20/2017 1:05 pm : link
In comment 13699271 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Eli's 2016 deep ball ranks:

5th most attempts (71)
4th most uncatchable (25)
Tied for 3rd worst uncatchable % (50.56%). Only behind Pittsburgh and Jacksonville and tied with the Jets, Arizona, and the Browns.

An interesting correlation: 7 of the 12 playoff teams ranked in the top 12 in terms of catchable deep ball %. Only 3 of the 12 playoff teams ranked in the top 10 of deep ball attempts (Pitt, GB, NYG).


That should be 45 uncatchable passes
RE: Leader?  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2017 1:14 pm : link
In comment 13698776 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
On this team? Um...no.


Got your finger on the pulse, as usual...

Quote:
Ralph Vacchiano‏Verified account
@RVacchianoSNY
41m41 minutes ago
More
RB Orleans Darkwa on Eli Manning's "fiery" pregame speech: "If the Super Bowl rings don't hold any weight, I don't know what else would."


Quote:
Tom Rock‏Verified account
@TomRock_Newsday
48m48 minutes ago
More
Darkwa on Eli: "We follow him. Everyone tries to follow his footsteps."
RE: Britt  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2017 1:15 pm : link
In comment 13699271 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Eli's 2016 deep ball ranks:

5th most attempts (71)
4th most uncatchable (25)
Tied for 3rd worst uncatchable % (50.56%). Only behind Pittsburgh and Jacksonville and tied with the Jets, Arizona, and the Browns.

An interesting correlation: 7 of the 12 playoff teams ranked in the top 12 in terms of catchable deep ball %. Only 3 of the 12 playoff teams ranked in the top 10 of deep ball attempts (Pitt, GB, NYG).


Thanks.
RE: RE: Britt  
ajr2456 : 11/20/2017 1:37 pm : link
In comment 13699304 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13699271 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


Eli's 2016 deep ball ranks:

5th most attempts (71)
4th most uncatchable (25)
Tied for 3rd worst uncatchable % (50.56%). Only behind Pittsburgh and Jacksonville and tied with the Jets, Arizona, and the Browns.

An interesting correlation: 7 of the 12 playoff teams ranked in the top 12 in terms of catchable deep ball %. Only 3 of the 12 playoff teams ranked in the top 10 of deep ball attempts (Pitt, GB, NYG).



Thanks.


The correct 2017 numbers are 20 uncatchable deep balls out of 28 attempts. 71% uncatchable
Only in Giant land  
Peppers : 11/20/2017 2:13 pm : link
will anyone try to argue Eli isn't in decline.


Eli is 36 years old!  
Rico : 11/20/2017 2:36 pm : link
Can we stop adding a year to his age to make him sound older than he is?

Eli's brother won a Superbowl at 40 despite having multiple surgeries on his cervical spine and requiring a couple years of therapy and rehab.

Eli is the least of our problems and is not the guy we should be looking to replace. Eli will be our QB for the next 2 to 4 years. He will stop playing when he chooses to stop.
he's 37 in January  
JonC : 11/20/2017 3:13 pm : link
Rico, if a blue chip is the want next April, pick him and start the development process, it will take some time.
Have to get a new QB  
family progtitioner : 11/20/2017 3:27 pm : link
The days of the 5-7 drop back statue passer are quickly coming to an end. Even Brady gets the ball out incredibly quick, and more importantly, on target. Best to get one now with the likely 3-5th pick in the draft then to try and come up with one in FA or later rounds
The OP is embarrassing himself and this Board  
WillieYoung : 11/20/2017 3:49 pm : link
54% completion % yesterday and 5.85 yds per attempt leads to a post about Eli's brilliant play.
Only in Giantland?  
BBelle21 : 11/20/2017 4:50 pm : link
In just the last few weeks, fans have posted commentary from Deion Sanders, Ladainian Tomlinson, Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman, and countless others saying that Eli is NOT in decline. Theyíve all said he can still make every throw. Are those former players living in Giantland?
I donít think the OP  
BBelle21 : 11/20/2017 4:51 pm : link
Embarrassed himself or these boards at all. Many agree with him.
I agree with OP..  
dank41 : 11/20/2017 6:33 pm : link
It's hard to say Eli is in decline since he has had shoddy offensive line play and a depleted WR corp.

If I'm considering those things, I'd say Eli hasn't looked too bad.

Perfect example is the Cowboys. With Tyron Smith, Dak was seemingly unstoppable. 2 games without Tyron Smith and they're comparing Dak to Ray Charles.

Yes, it is time to look for his successor, but I still think this team is still only a piece or two away from being a serious contender.
RE: Eli is 36 years old!  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/20/2017 6:42 pm : link
In comment 13699411 Rico said:
Quote:
Can we stop adding a year to his age to make him sound older than he is?

Eli's brother won a Superbowl at 40 despite having multiple surgeries on his cervical spine and requiring a couple years of therapy and rehab.



Eli's brother won a super bowl at 40 on the shoulders of a defense that goes into the books about as good as the 2000 baltimore ravens. It takes about a second of looking up to remember how terrible Peyton Manning was in his final year. He was carried.
RE: Only in Giantland?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/20/2017 6:44 pm : link
In comment 13699586 BBelle21 said:
Quote:
In just the last few weeks, fans have posted commentary from Deion Sanders, Ladainian Tomlinson, Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman, and countless others saying that Eli is NOT in decline. Theyíve all said he can still make every throw. Are those former players living in Giantland?


How likely are you to bet your mortgage on how many Giants games Terry Bradshaw has watched in the last year?
Holy Crap 2-4 years ???  
Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) : 11/20/2017 8:34 pm : link
I donít know bout you guys but Iím tired of seeing 5 yd passes by Eli on 3rd and 8 or longer. He canít throw a screen or a dump off without hitting our RBís feet.

I love Eli, but his time is coming to an end.

RE: RE: not how i saw it...  
Jimmy Googs : 11/20/2017 8:49 pm : link
In comment 13699240 clatterbuck said:
Quote:
In comment 13698739 GiantNatty said:


Quote:


they won despite eli. again, i love eli, but he looks dreadful out there. awful. he is the single biggest reason for the offense's continued dysfunction and there's really no other way to see it at this point.

you can change the GM and you can change the HC, but if Eli is the quarterback next year, it will be the same story as this year. never mind the league, he's the worst quarterback in the division . . . by far.



Sorry, this comment borders on nonsense. How many dropped passes yeterday, including a couple that should have been big plays? One big play to Engram taken away by a questionable at best PI call. Another walk-off game-winning drive. C'mon, man.


The questionable PI was indeed questionable. In most other teams games this is an afterthought, here on BBI and with the shitty offense we have you would think it was akin to stealing the game from us.

Too many dramatics and way too many drama queens on this site looking externally to share the blame for a team that cannot score double digits unless it's defense forces at least 3 turnovers a game...
RE: I'm worried about a Simms/Reeves scenario.  
Millburn : 11/21/2017 7:57 am : link
In comment 13698788 Jerz44 said:
Quote:
Assuming McAdoo is gone (which I hope he will be) next year, will the next coach come in and try to start fresh with Webb or someone who's drafted?

I still think Eli looks like he has 3-5 years left. Even recently, when he's had time he's looked sharp.



Bingo and I know there aren't a lot of people that remember that but I would hate that!Eli doesn't deserve that.To hell with the fans(seriously)let Eli play!
RE: The OP is embarrassing himself and this Board  
JCin332 : 11/21/2017 9:00 am : link
In comment 13699493 WillieYoung said:
Quote:
54% completion % yesterday and 5.85 yds per attempt leads to a post about Eli's brilliant play.


Brilliant analysis...you do realize there was 40 mph winds and 5 to 8 drops...

No one is saying he played great or that they shouldn't be planning for his successor...

But what burns some people are the dopes who say he is the cause of the problems and is finished...

Same geniuses who were saying he was a bust in 2007...
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