Every Super Bowl this team has ever won has been because of power football. Why the fuck did we have to get cute? Fire Reese and McAdoo doo. Bring back the football I grew up watching. I loved watching Csonka, Morris(little but thick), Hampton, Anderson, Jacobs and Bradshaw. Lineman like Snacks on both sides of the ball. You know what we are going to do, fuck you, you can't stop this. That's how I like it.
And make every player get a crew cut to look like him too!
But yes. Fuck the wco for the most part. It's a nice change up but for us it's seemingly been aa really weak assed base.... If that's what you call what we been running
I'm also tired of this WCO.
I'm also tired of this WCO.
Nobody in the NFL really does this anymore, and with good reason.
Front sevens are bigger, faster, more athletic and offensive lines have fallen behind.
I'm also tired of this WCO.
Whatever offense you think is better, there's a common ground: Both of them require an offensive line that can clear guys out. Those Niner teams did plenty of power running because they had a good offensive line that knew how to pave roads.
Power Football is what we all want, since the 4 WR got hurt in the Charger game we have been a much more run oriented team.
Cautionary tale about putting too much stock in thinking there's only one way to win.
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Lets get back to power football, 2 TE sets, a Full Back and here we come.
I'm also tired of this WCO.
Nobody in the NFL really does this anymore, and with good reason.
Front sevens are bigger, faster, more athletic and offensive lines have fallen behind.
I don't know. The point could be made that a team that actually tried it would have an advantage because nobody is prepared for it anymore.
I mean, look at Dallas last year.
Right now the Eagles line is mauling people left and right.
Minnesota paid a lot of money to a handful of offensive linemen who weren't particularly good and came up with a good unit.
That's what I was hoping Ben would bring.
The key of course is a QB more mobile than was required for a more traditional "pocket passer". (Eli will be effective in transition and as a mentor).
An up tempo offense, with short passes interchangeable with running plays, but capable of going over the top with play action.
Watson (with fewer runs but enough to still have to be accounted for) would be my prototype QB for today. (Of course Rogers also fills that mold.)
That would not take away from a philosophy of dominating at both lines of scrimmage.
I'm old enough to remember the arguments about whether your linemen should be "big" rather than "fast". Today they are often both. (Harkens back somewhat to Young's "Planet Theory")
Then it's McAdoo fault for trying to make Eli into something he is not. That's why I believe that McAdoo wants another QB but hasn't got the standing to push Eli aside. Thus McAdoo singled out Eli during the start of the season for the woos of the Giants. Now he find HIS head on the chopping block and not Eli's. When you make the wrong choices, you are kicked to the curb rather quickly.
Power Football is what we all want, since the 4 WR got hurt in the Charger game we have been a much more run oriented team.
Yeah, but Erik Flowers scared the hell out of the cornerback assigned to stop him from catching a pass :)
Sid Gillman is the father of the modern passing game. 2 systems evolved from him. The Coryell Vertical & the WCO of Bill Walsh. What's happening in today's game is that the WCO version has gained the upper hand . Many of the great vertical coaches --Gibbs, Coughlin, Martz, the Turners, Zampese--are gone . Furthermore the changes in the college game with the read option and spread are more suitable to graduation into a WCO.
The Cowboys were strictly a vertical offense for a generation. Now they are a WCO. They got hammered last night but they didn't have any problems running the ball against a good defensive front, with Morris instead of Elliott at RB.
I think the 2 quarterbacks in the league who were most damaged by a change in systems were Joe Flacco and Eli. But nothing is preventing the Giants from playing the type of style you advocate.
you win because you have playmakers
the problem with WCO is that Eli is not a WCO QB.
he's a read, diagnose, check, dropback and throw deep qb.
And they have been. Try to keep up.
POWER FOOTBALL. 3 YARDS AND A CLOUD OF DUST. NO RETRACTABLE ROOFS.
Are you serious? The last three games and five of the last six, the Giants have exceeded 110 yards rushing. Ereck Flowers hasn't given up a sack since week 2 against Detroit. Tom Brady has been sacked 23 times this year; Eli has been sacked 22 times. Is the Patriots' offense (which is a WCO offshoot) sputtering?
The offensive line is only a scapegoat on BBI. They've actually been playing fairly well. Maybe watch a game or two?
Link - ( New Window )
1. The Giants offensive line till recently ha been HORRIBLE (which means no running attack and an immobile Eli Manning is either running for his life or being forced to make some very difficult throws into tight coverage.
2. The best receiver in the NFL is on IR, Eli is throwing to receivers that are learning how to be NFL players
When the Giants won their last two Super Bowls, they had two RBs that the enemy had to respect - Bradshaw & Jacobs, hence, play-action was respected.
It's not WCO vs. play-action deep throwing offense; it's about a good O-line and RBs that can PUNISH the defense.
Giant offense of the 80s is non existent today.
I'm not sure why there was such a huge step back once Mac became HC. Some of that blame I put on the Giants, as I don't believe Mac got to choose his staff. He has an OC who I believe admitted he didn't know anything about the WCO and Sullivan was really the Mara's decision.
Secondly, Some Coordinators really can't make the transition to HC. Happens a lot with good coordinators (Offense and Defense). It might be Mac falls into that category.
I think he is getting 1 more year as a HC here. Might not be what people want. I think there will be a bunch of changes everywhere else on the coaching staff. The Giants did the same with TC before they let him go too and I bet they do the same with Mac.
But we have seen some very weak play design as well as play calling this year .
Then add in what johnb said:
Macadoo may have felt that he would get a new QB (to fit something that wasn't proven get). Jerry Reese must have had his back on that, otherwise how to sustain that belief.
Someone mentioned that itsa great system because it can run almost any play....but in practice they ran a very narrow group of sets and even fewer in run. First many games very weak integration of run / pass .
Looks like a case of conflating theory with practice.
With Mac many weeks it's been a question if how to -make it-remotely competitive.
It's been like Springfield High vs Alabama.
People talking about the potential of the system must not have been watching the games because preponderance of 11 and some of the most poorly designed plays we have ever seen.
Add in apparent lack of wr/QB reps as per toomer and the rap doesn't match the reality.
Five of the last six weeks with 110+ yards rushing. That dates back to early October. It's ok that you just parroted a common narrative without realizing that it was false. You don't have to double down on it.
It's not a narrative. They've been bad all season long. And yes they have ran for long chunks of yards and have had 100 yards rushing but...two rushing touchdowns this whole season? and always get seemed to get stuffed on first down.
It's been a poorly conceived and poorly managed offense.
It's been a poorly conceived and poorly managed offense.
Yep. Seattle game too if I remember correctly they couldn't get anything going but the game was over in the 4th and most of those yards came from garbage time too.
Not in the sense of line it up, smash mouth football though. It's a lot more inside/outside zone runs, misdirection, traps. Gone are the days of blowing the dline off the ball and running 35-40 times a game for 140. It's a finesse run game now.
With Mac many weeks it's been a question if how to -make it-remotely competitive.
It's been like Springfield High vs Alabama.
People talking about the potential of the system must not have been watching the games because preponderance of 11 and some of the most poorly designed plays we have ever seen.
Add in apparent lack of wr/QB reps as per toomer and the rap doesn't match the reality.
There were plenty of ugly blowouts in Coughlin's final years too. Let's remember the end of that time clearly. This year's Giants team is a few seconds away from having a handful more wins. They have been more competitive that you're implying.
It's not a narrative. They've been bad all season long. And yes they have ran for long chunks of yards and have had 100 yards rushing but...two rushing touchdowns this whole season? and always get seemed to get stuffed on first down.
If you're talking about the past 7 years, weren't there any seasons where the offense was effective? The pass blocking has actually been adequate for most of the time that you're referring to. Look around the league - OL play is a common issue. But the Giants pass pro has generally been decent over the past few years; it's been their run blocking that has been a problem during that time.
As for the rest of your post - always stuffed on first down? The Giants rank in the top half of the league in rushing on 1st and 10. They average 58.6 rushing yards per game on 1st and 10.
To your point about rushing TDs (they have 3, not 2), that's at least partially on the playcalling. How many times have we seen them inside the 5, throwing three times without a rushing attempt?
Again, feel free to parrot a popular complaint if you don't want to think for yourself or do any research.
Good luck finding that next Rodgers clone though. They do not grow on trees. And guess what, Rosen or Darnold are not those types of QB's either. Unless you are looking to grab Mayfield or Jackson.
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But giants were competitive.
With Mac many weeks it's been a question if how to -make it-remotely competitive.
It's been like Springfield High vs Alabama.
People talking about the potential of the system must not have been watching the games because preponderance of 11 and some of the most poorly designed plays we have ever seen.
Add in apparent lack of wr/QB reps as per toomer and the rap doesn't match the reality.
There were plenty of ugly blowouts in Coughlin's final years too. Let's remember the end of that time clearly. This year's Giants team is a few seconds away from having a handful more wins. They have been more competitive that you're implying.
The offense blows. It put up a staggering 300 yards total offense and 12 points against a piece of shit defense in 4 1/2 quarters. Its one td came on a 26 yard "drive" and it took 7 plays and a 12 yard PI penalty to do that. I don't care what coast it comes from, it should be sent back.
It's a testament to fan desperation that a bumbling effort against an even more bumbling opponent in a 12-9 OT snoozefest is being hailed here as some sort of historic achievement.
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In comment 13699962 idiotsavant said:
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But giants were competitive.
With Mac many weeks it's been a question if how to -make it-remotely competitive.
It's been like Springfield High vs Alabama.
People talking about the potential of the system must not have been watching the games because preponderance of 11 and some of the most poorly designed plays we have ever seen.
Add in apparent lack of wr/QB reps as per toomer and the rap doesn't match the reality.
There were plenty of ugly blowouts in Coughlin's final years too. Let's remember the end of that time clearly. This year's Giants team is a few seconds away from having a handful more wins. They have been more competitive that you're implying.
Yes, let's. 7 losses in 2015 by a combined 20 points which is more than a handful, and you all were up in arms. $200 million should buy you a competitive defense, and it won the game on Sunday.
The offense blows. It put up a staggering 300 yards total offense and 12 points against a piece of shit defense in 4 1/2 quarters. Its one td came on a 26 yard "drive" and it took 7 plays and a 12 yard PI penalty to do that. I don't care what coast it comes from, it should be sent back.
It's a testament to fan desperation that a bumbling effort against an even more bumbling opponent in a 12-9 OT snoozefest is being hailed here as some sort of historic achievement.
It was more than 2015 that got Coughlin fired.
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In comment 13699962 idiotsavant said:
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But giants were competitive.
With Mac many weeks it's been a question if how to -make it-remotely competitive.
It's been like Springfield High vs Alabama.
People talking about the potential of the system must not have been watching the games because preponderance of 11 and some of the most poorly designed plays we have ever seen.
Add in apparent lack of wr/QB reps as per toomer and the rap doesn't match the reality.
There were plenty of ugly blowouts in Coughlin's final years too. Let's remember the end of that time clearly. This year's Giants team is a few seconds away from having a handful more wins. They have been more competitive that you're implying.
Yes, let's. 7 losses in 2015 by a combined 20 points which is more than a handful, and you all were up in arms. $200 million should buy you a competitive defense, and it won the game on Sunday.
The offense blows. It put up a staggering 300 yards total offense and 12 points against a piece of shit defense in 4 1/2 quarters. Its one td came on a 26 yard "drive" and it took 7 plays and a 12 yard PI penalty to do that. I don't care what coast it comes from, it should be sent back.
It's a testament to fan desperation that a bumbling effort against an even more bumbling opponent in a 12-9 OT snoozefest is being hailed here as some sort of historic achievement.
are you forgetting that the giants were without their starting four wide receivers for this game? look at their stable of RBs.. darkwa, gallman, and vereen is brought in on 3rd and 10 to catch a 6 yard screen before they punt. the OL has been either a shambles or a game of musical chairs all year long. i'm not sure what kind of an offensive performance you were expecting v. KC given the personnel problems.
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In comment 13700005 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13699962 idiotsavant said:
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But giants were competitive.
With Mac many weeks it's been a question if how to -make it-remotely competitive.
It's been like Springfield High vs Alabama.
People talking about the potential of the system must not have been watching the games because preponderance of 11 and some of the most poorly designed plays we have ever seen.
Add in apparent lack of wr/QB reps as per toomer and the rap doesn't match the reality.
There were plenty of ugly blowouts in Coughlin's final years too. Let's remember the end of that time clearly. This year's Giants team is a few seconds away from having a handful more wins. They have been more competitive that you're implying.
Yes, let's. 7 losses in 2015 by a combined 20 points which is more than a handful, and you all were up in arms. $200 million should buy you a competitive defense, and it won the game on Sunday.
The offense blows. It put up a staggering 300 yards total offense and 12 points against a piece of shit defense in 4 1/2 quarters. Its one td came on a 26 yard "drive" and it took 7 plays and a 12 yard PI penalty to do that. I don't care what coast it comes from, it should be sent back.
It's a testament to fan desperation that a bumbling effort against an even more bumbling opponent in a 12-9 OT snoozefest is being hailed here as some sort of historic achievement.
are you forgetting that the giants were without their starting four wide receivers for this game? look at their stable of RBs.. darkwa, gallman, and vereen is brought in on 3rd and 10 to catch a 6 yard screen before they punt. the OL has been either a shambles or a game of musical chairs all year long. i'm not sure what kind of an offensive performance you were expecting v. KC given the personnel problems.
Trying to replicate what Rogers does in context. Taking a broken play and turn it into a 40 yard pass. Looks brilliant because broken play bought time for the routes to run.
SO... 'Step one. Draw up some broken plays, plays that don't work, scramble and pass'
That is insane of course.
Conversely falcons...fairly simple stuff. But runs are quick to / off the line. Teachable, doable and integrates with pass without Superman.
If we had this OL now, in the first five games, with Eli under center, and using play action, our WR's would not have been facing cover 2 all the time, because we would have had a running game which we did not have in the first 5 games.....
The fact that Mac ran this offense, kept the same guys out there, and ran the same plays as last year, is not defensible.....it showed inability to compensate for the players he had on the field, right from the very first game....only injuries caused change...
I think your thought pattern that a WCO does not run the ball well is a complete fallacy. The Giants dont run the ball well because they have a mediocre offensive line, lack of talent at the running back position, and a coach who is not committed to running the football.
There are plenty of WCO's that ran or have run the ball extremely well.
Kansas City has run the ball extremely well, especially when Jamal Charles was healthy and they are a WCO.
As RetroJint pointed out The Cowboys run a version and they can run the ball extremely well.
The Eagles run a version and they run the ball extremely well.
Seattle ran it well when they had Marshawn at the hieght of his game and he would NEVER be considered a " finesse" running backs..
So its more about actually having the coaching and the talent.. and the talent working within the system.. rather than the system itself..
AND BTW. The Giants had the WORST rushing attack in the league when they won in 2011. DEAD FREAKING LAST.
err pass to set up the run.
I didn't say I was. And I pointed out the playcalling as part of that. The reality is that the offense hasn't been good in general - were you expecting a ton of rushing TDs in spite of that? The point is just that the OL hasn't been nearly the culprit that you tried to claim.
You don't have any idea what you're talking about and tried to pass off a commonly repeated narrative without bothering to even consider whether it's actually true. It's fine - you have plenty of company here who do the same thing.
Who gives a crap about those statistics such as that when you’re... 2-8? The numbers are going to be skewed when you are losing games and teams are playing soft at the end of the game or have big leads. Their inability to get first downs EARLY ON in the season and early on in the game on 3rd and short running the ball has been pathetic (see Dallas, Philly, Detroit, Seattle game…etc). Either that, or its 3rd and long because of nothing to be gained on second down, then mixed that with a stupid false start or holding penalty by an O-line man and its 3rd and long. If you would just watch how well Philadelphia’s line is playing and you’ll see that’s the difference between a 9-1 team and a 2-8 team. They give their QB enough time to throw, enough time to make a decision and a few reads; solid blocking up front in the run game, of course another difference is the Giants don’t have their best player Odell out there as a threat to throw the ball to.
Since you love statistics and rankings so much, let’s talk about early on in the season (Perkins hi rusher with 16 vs Dallas, Vereen 28 vs Detroit, Darkwa/Perkins with 26 vs Philly, Gallman 42 vs Tampa Bay). Yeah, that’s going to win you a ton of games in the National Football League and not put you in any kind of hole. I did take note they played a bit better in the Broncos game, seems as if their defense was jumping the gun expecting passes a lot and Eli kept checking into a run, and Fluker played well against his old team. At that moment in time, in the game prior, the Chargers weren’t any good (still really aren’t), who is also still dead last in the league against the run. Guess what? Despite you pointing to games where they ran for this many yards and that many yards, and notwithstanding getting blown out in their losses, they’re still 26th in the league in running the ball! The thing I do like is that Darkwa is getting more carries. I do like what he is doing. He plays hard, finds the creases (when they’re there). Who knows maybe this mix of guys (on offensive line) can help things going for more irrelevant football? Yes. Get that third win by Christmas!
As far as your comment about me expecting a ton of touchdowns by this point of the season, that’s an awful weird question on your part. As if I me trying contemplate a team having more than 3 rushing touchdowns by November is seen as an asinine idea proves this offensive line to be a culprit….or there is an awfully low set bar.