NFT: Knicks Thread 11/21

1 year deal-Excellent deal
2 year deal-Good deal
3 year deal-pushing it and too much risk
4 year deal-a big problem

I was definitely on board for seeing what Noah had, but it had to be a short term deal and we are now seeing why. It's a devastating contract for the Knicks right now. Of course we probably wouldn't have that space if we didn't sign Noah, we would have just spent it on someone else.

In comment 13700691 Enzo said:

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In comment 13700672 djm said: Quote: Thx sunshine. Phil gave us KP. Best knick since Ewing. Phil the savior. Say it with me. Fuck off. we really need to keep a running list of just how many times you've been dead wrong on a Knick trade or free agent signing. It's remarkable how often it happens. You'd think you might get one right once in a while just by accident.

Dude you really took this to another level. Good job.

I know I was right about KP. Check the archives.

I don't keep score on internet message board debates. I know I am a pretty smart person overall, sports or in general. I get some wrong. Some right.

Thanks for taking this to another place. Kindly ignore me.

that i basically said I just wish pro sports in general had less of a financial stigma attached to it and this place goes fucking bat shit. I guess I touched a nerve? Wasn't my intentions believe me...

In comment 13700698 Keith said:

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1 year deal-Excellent deal 2 year deal-Good deal 3 year deal-pushing it and too much risk 4 year deal-a big problem I was definitely on board for seeing what Noah had, but it had to be a short term deal and we are now seeing why. It's a devastating contract for the Knicks right now. Of course we probably wouldn't have that space if we didn't sign Noah, we would have just spent it on someone else.

Yup (while I didn't particularly want Noah because of his injury stuff). 1-2 years would have been fine (though if people recall the rumor was the Wizards were going to offer him 4 years and "max" money and people were going nuts with laughter, people found the idea preposterous). The Noah deal is and always will be because Phil thought he was smarter than the room, nothing less nothing more. 1-2 years "why not? we stink, lets change the culture" whatever. 4 years was wild.

I think his point is that many fans seemingly enjoy discussing contracts and future seasons salaries, future possible players and their possible salaries, and how that all fits together more than they do the actual games they are watching and game play that is occurring on the court.

Maybe it's a generational thing, kind of how so many younger baseball fans often seem to prefer to discuss sabermetrics more than some of the older fans do.

I'm not saying either is wrong and any fan should be able to enjoy watching/following his teams however he most enjoys. But clearly some people enjoy analyzing salaries more where other fans prefer to just talk more about the play occurring on the court.

Personally I don't mind discussing salaries when it matters and the team is actually making decisions and moves, but I kind of agree that when the season is happening I am more caught up in the games and who is doing what. Then at whatever point when a move is being made I am interested in how it shapes the team. Constant evaluating the exact same thing over and over for each game gets a little redundant for me.

should be sent to the G-League. There isn't much to be gained with him not playing at all.

In comment 13700712 steve in ky said:

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I think his point is that many fans seemingly enjoy discussing contracts and future seasons salaries, future possible players and their possible salaries, and how that all fits together more than they do the actual games they are watching and game play that is occurring on the court. Maybe it's a generational thing, kind of how so many younger baseball fans often seem to prefer to discuss sabermetrics more than some of the older fans do. I'm not saying either is wrong and any fan should be able to enjoy watching/following his teams however he most enjoys. But clearly some people enjoy analyzing salaries more where other fans prefer to just talk more about the play occurring on the court. Personally I don't mind discussing salaries when it matters and the team is actually making decisions and moves, but I kind of agree that when the season is happening I am more caught up in the games and who is doing what. Then at whatever point when a move is being made I am interested in how it shapes the team. Constant evaluating the exact same thing over and over for each game gets a little redundant for me.

I can only speak for myself, but trust me, I wish I didn't have things like "base year compensation" and "traded player exception" floating around in my head. The NBA CBA is the most unnecessarily complicated thing in all of sports. But it's impossible to have an informed discussion about the NBA without a basic understanding of cap rules and contracts.

We are in the midst of an exciting little run with a light at the end of the tunnel. We should just enjoy it, not worry about next year and the cap and all the other stuff. So much still needs to be decided before we know the best direction to go.

I'm guilty of it too. When we traded Melo, I was all about trading Kanter immediately, but I am so glad we didn't. He can potentially be a building block for this team.

In comment 13700650 Greg from LI said:

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But I do feel aggrieved when I see Tim Hardaway making $71 million to be the same lump of mediocrity he's always been.

Have you missed the last 10+ games?

Also, relatively speaking, 4y/$71mm is not a huge contract.

In comment 13700716 DanMetroMan said:

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should be sent to the G-League. There isn't much to be gained with him not playing at all.

I agree with this, but maybe they feel he's better off practicing against guys like Kanter and Noah? They've had a ton of home games, so maybe there's been more practices than usual.

Dotson during his 3 games there 17 and 8, 2 assists, 1 steal 46% from the field, 53% from 3 (I really wish they could find some PT for Dotson, while it's impossible to argue Willy over Kanter right now I do think some of Lee's minutes should go to Dotson)

Hayes 17 and 7, 1 steal 53% from the field 48% from 3 (didn't look like an NBA athlete to me during the summer but has played well)

Kornet 14 and 6, 42% from the field, 36% from 3

Burke 23 and 6 with 2 steals, 4 boards 49% from the field, 39% from 3. Burke just needs to be patient, odds are Jack doesn't last all season and Burke presumably is "next" in the PG pecking order unless they go with Baker...

In comment 13700723 Enzo said:

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In comment 13700716 DanMetroMan said: Quote: should be sent to the G-League. There isn't much to be gained with him not playing at all. I agree with this, but maybe they feel he's better off practicing against guys like Kanter and Noah? They've had a ton of home games, so maybe there's been more practices than usual.

I just think at some point playing against actual competition has value. It's not as if he can't be around the team, they have shuttled guys before. Hard to imagine he'd even have the cardio to go 20-25 per night if he's not playing in games soon.

In comment 13700733 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 13700723 Enzo said: Quote: In comment 13700716 DanMetroMan said: Quote: should be sent to the G-League. There isn't much to be gained with him not playing at all. I agree with this, but maybe they feel he's better off practicing against guys like Kanter and Noah? They've had a ton of home games, so maybe there's been more practices than usual. I just think at some point playing against actual competition has value. It's not as if he can't be around the team, they have shuttled guys before. Hard to imagine he'd even have the cardio to go 20-25 per night if he's not playing in games soon.

if they ever get around to activating Noah, then they almost need to send Wily there. Is there somewhere lower than the G-League where they can send Baker?

In comment 13700679 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 13700667 djm said: Quote: Two more years of Noah's annoying contract won't sink this franchise to unrecoverable depths. It sucks but whatever, move on. Knicks will recover. Again, no disrespect intended but this is where your view and most people's views diverge. Imagine what this team looks like right now with a "legit" 18 million dollar player replacing Noah? Or 2 9 million dollar players? His contract absolutely impacts what the Knicks look like now and going forward.

Never said his contract didn't impact things. It sucks. I've said that.

Forget it. You guys took my comments as if I was shitting all over salary cap talk. I don't necessarily love "cap talk" but I get it. The cap dynamic is the very fabric of successful NBA play.

I should have prefaced my comments with one key point: I HATE SALARY CAPS.

That's all. You guys are great. I learn more from most of you on here than I care to admit. Even you enzo.

is that an olive branch you just extended or a knife that looks camaflouged to look like an olive branch?

almost 18 4 and 4 on 45 percent shooting with better defense is pretty good...

take away the first three games and he is at 20 ppg

In comment 13700741 nygiants16 said:

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almost 18 4 and 4 on 45 percent shooting with better defense is pretty good... take away the first three games and he is at 20 ppg

He's going to be polarizing. He's a scorer who is an averageish defender and at times can have questionable shot selection. He's been hot and cold at times but overall he's been good. That said he was paid what he was paid with the idea last year was the beginning of a breakout not "all he is". If he "only" plays this well then his contract is fine, but the hope is there is more there, an additional level. His 3point % should rise but (and I'm not looking to knock him) but he does take really really maddening 3's at times for a guy who isn't a deadeye long range shooter.

for context he's averaging 8.3 3pt FGA per 36 despite only shooting 31% from 3, KP is averaging 5.5 (despite hitting 40%).

than I had remembered him being.

That ability has helped them already this season in games where they their shooting was off and they desperately needed a basket or two. And while he can sometimes force it he has had the knack for hitting some important 3's

In comment 13700740 Keith said:

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is that an olive branch you just extended or a knife that looks camaflouged to look like an olive branch?

I hate going to bed angry. Olive branch, although honestly I didn't start this he brought it to another level. Thing is questioning my intelligence or sports smarts doesn't threaten me. I know I'm brilliant.

there are times he takes a 3 and i am loke what are you doing, especially when he can get to the rim at will...

It's not that fans enjoy discussing money, they enjoy discussing roster construction. Part of that is fitting salaries under the cap. I got in arguments last year with fans saying Noah's contract didn't matter because the Knicks were rebuilding and wouldn't be in the FA market. I don't begrudge players getting paid and think most of them deserve every dollar, but when a guy like Noah is taking up 20% of the salary cap for the next 3 years and is unplayable, it effects your team. It's an opportunity cost. It could easily be the difference in having the luxury to keep Mcdermott, KOQ etc.

My issue with the Knicks is that they never hold their ground and agree to "team friendly" deals. Did Ron Baker need a player option ( let alone any guaranteed money)? Lance Thomas 4 years guaranteed? Even Hardaway getting a player option or trying to sign him for 60 mill instead of 72. Every dollar counts in the NBA, just look at Celtics this offseason.

But for the people saying Hardaway has been mediocre or disappointing? You must not be watching the games. I wasn't a fan of the contract or the player, but I've been wrong so far. He's been very good for the Knicks and a big reason why they are winning games. And he's getting paid as the 16th highest SG in the NBA and providing good value for that.

in all you can see the makings of a really solid/nice piece of a good team. He needs to continue developing and improve his decision making, drive more than shoot so many 3's and continue to work defensively. At times he actually reminds me of one of my favorite Knicks ever... John Starks.

In comment 13700759 nygiants16 said:

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there are times he takes a 3 and i am loke what are you doing, especially when he can get to the rim at will...

Shot selection and defensive focus definitely need improvement. A guy that athletic shouldn't be getting beat backdoor and should at least be an average defender. But those things can be improved. It's not asking Kidd Gilchrist to become a 20point scorer or some other unrealistic improvement/ projection.

In comment 13700756 djm said:

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In comment 13700740 Keith said: Quote: is that an olive branch you just extended or a knife that looks camaflouged to look like an olive branch? I hate going to bed angry. Olive branch, although honestly I didn't start this he brought it to another level.

what level is that? The level where reasonable and informed discussions take place?

.thanks for moving on. You're a treasure.

Or anything you even said here? I made a simple point about money and pro sports. How the fuck can you turn that into an excuse to bash me? You must really hate me.

why don't they let him run the pick n roll w/ KP? With his shooting and ability to get to the basket I think that he'd be far more effective running the pick and roll than Grant or Frank would.

I'm sure i can come across a bit strong or condescending or whatever at times here. I have to sometimes remind myself or pull back a bit. I know clashed at times and I know full well I said shit to get under your skin. Whether I egged you on or you egged me on doesn't matter. If I stirred you up with my shit in the past, especially when the Knicks would hand out questionable contracts, I apologize. Let's move on. We want the same thing.

Unlike this year, there isn't much first round talent lighting up mocks at the pg spot. That said, if a quick, athletic pg floats to near the top of the second round, I think the Knicks might pounce. Maybe even better if he is a true high-end Eurostash.

In comment 13700802 manh george said:

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Unlike this year, there isn't much first round talent lighting up mocks at the pg spot. That said, if a quick, athletic pg floats to near the top of the second round, I think the Knicks might pounce. Maybe even better if he is a true high-end Eurostash.

It's an interesting question (at least to me) regarding what position(s) we'd ideally like to land in the draft. A C? SG? SF? I guess just talent, no matter at what position, huh?

Simply isn't very good. Saying that he's been the second best player on the Knicks says more about them than it does about him.

To Enzo and djm. Olive branches are a good thing

..

but he's nowhere near the rookie he was with the Knicks. Players do develop, after all.

In comment 13700817 Greg from LI said:

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Simply isn't very good. Saying that he's been the second best player on the Knicks says more about them than it does about him.

so dermar derozan is simply not very good?

we see them again tomorrow night.
Raptors rising - ( New Window )

and everything else. News at 11.

In comment 13700817 Greg from LI said:

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Simply isn't very good. Saying that he's been the second best player on the Knicks says more about them than it does about him.

how many Knick games have you even watched this season?

and not offcourt drama.

Come out come out wherever you are...

I already know.

B****.

What a joke.

And while there are a few guys that can do what hardaway does for a fraction of the cost at least hardaway is a decent player at two guard. More importantly he's a pretty good athlete or at least looks the part. Hardaway isn't getting by on savy or grit as much as he's getting his off of talent. From all accounts he is a hard worker. Add it all up, the talent, pedigree and commitment....:.I'd say it's reasonable to say he's got staying power or even room to grow. Knicks have had so many FA moves and in disaster at least this one looks to be at least chalk results, so to speak.

In comment 13700924 B in ALB said:

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Come out come out wherever you are... I already know. B****. What a joke.

What?

In comment 13700930 LawrenceTaylor56 said:

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In comment 13700924 B in ALB said: Quote: Come out come out wherever you are... I already know. B****. What a joke. What?

Somebody complained to the mods about me using the C word (which, as we all know has been thrown around liberally for years). All of a sudden.

And I know exactly who the little chickenhawk is on bbi. But he is too much of a bitch to come out and admit it.

Fact is, I worked his illiterate ass the other day and he's bitter. C*o*n.

Especially if like he says he has plenty of women who read this site. Just because people may not have made a bigger fuss about it in the past doesn't mean it wasn't objectionable. Plenty of ways to get your point across otherwise.

I called Blake Griffin a c***. Not only is that completely correct but it may be the most accurate description of a particular human being in the history of mankind.

I should be awarded a Pulitzer. Not issued a warning.

just to make myself feel mature, refined, and polite. It's like shopping at Wal-Mart to feel thin and goodlooking.

In comment 13700948 TJ said:

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just to make myself feel mature, refined, and polite. It's like shopping at Wal-Mart to feel thin and goodlooking.

That gave me a good chuckle!

People tattle telling like children.

No need to be a smarty pants.

Stand up and battle if you feel you are right. Don't run to the teacher. And I don't always agree with B. Now to the Knicks how can anyone complain? Bottom line the W's are where I thought we would be at the Break. I'll take it.