NFT: Knicks Thread 11/21

to have Frank playing in the G league. He's clearly gaining confidence and great experience playing for the Knicks, and he needs to build that on-court chemistry with his also-young teammates.

I feel for Willy, not getting the minutes. But if we can take Hornacek at his word, then it's a clear statement: improve your defense and you'll play. Right now, though, if there's a defensive hole in Hernangomez's game, putting him on the court when the team is logging a lot of solid stretches of excellent team individual and team defense would be a mistake for the team's success.

Assuming there's no BS, I like what Hornacek is doing.

Regarding Frank: He just needs to continue to play and learn. His defense can clearly become elite, as in first team all NBA D one day. His shot, handle and overall offensive game needs to improve but there is no reason to believe it won't as he builds confidence. So far, the pundits and draft analysts who said his ceiling was "solid starter" could definitely be wrong. He's not a franchise type player but I think he has all star potential.

Regarding Hardaway: He has done well so far. There is a lot to like but control and shot selection still gets away from him. As the leader of this team, I'd like to see KP stay on him about this, and we've already seen KP trying to calm him down when he gets out of control.

Regarding KP: KP could have it all. The one aspect of his overall game still holding him back is his physicality/toughness. We've seen it with Howard and LeBron so far, these guys are going to try to muscle him into submission. Deep down, I think the American players consider it a challenge when these European players come over and play really well. KP has to be up to the physical challenge of getting bodied and taking on the best defenders in the league. He needs to keep his weight up, he's going to have to not be afraid to play down low, and he has to stop flopping/going to the floor as much as he does.

So far they have been a pleasant surprise. Kanter and McD have been huge. Even KOQ, Jack and Thomas have done well in their roles so far. Pleasantly surprised.

Yep I get the counterargument. I'd just like to see him have a handful of games where he could freely shoot 10-15x and work on his offensive game.

Still, I get that the optics would be bad, especially with the media being anti-Knicks.

The latter will outweigh the former. In other words< I realize this has no chance of happening.

of trading O'Quinn. He's 27 years old and could have a very important role on this team as it develops over next 2-3 seasons. He turns 28 in March, so starting he'd be a 30-year-old leader and great teammate and locker room guy (who grew up in New York, mind you) who plays team ball, when the 2020-2021 season begins.

For fun, with some additions and subtractions, here's a look at the ages for what the core of a New York Knicks team starting the 2020-2021 season might look like:

* O'Quinn (30)
* Kanter (28)
* Hardaway (28)
* Dougie (28)
* Willy (26)
* Dotson (26)
* KP (25)
* Frank (22)

Average age for those eight? Just a little over 26 and a half. IN 2020!!!

That gives you another 7 roster spots to add a couple vets looking to get rings, and a handful of talented young guys, and who knows? Maybe one more superstar?

I like where this team is pointed. Stick with Hornacek, and stay this course. If you've been watching and you can't detect something potentially special on the horizon, you're not paying attention. This group is the closest thing we've seen to those tough '90s Knicks teams that we loved.

but we also don't really have the PG depth to send him to the D-league, either. It's ok if he has bad game here and there because he's smart enough to learn from them.

as anything. If the guy was battling the flu, let's give him a check mark in the "gamer" department, at very least.

In comment 13700155 Beezer said:

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of trading O'Quinn. He's 27 years old and could have a very important role on this team as it develops over next 2-3 seasons. He turns 28 in March, so starting he'd be a 30-year-old leader and great teammate and locker room guy (who grew up in New York, mind you) who plays team ball, when the 2020-2021 season begins. For fun, with some additions and subtractions, here's a look at the ages for what the core of a New York Knicks team starting the 2020-2021 season might look like: * O'Quinn (30) * Kanter (28) * Hardaway (28) * Dougie (28) * Willy (26) * Dotson (26) * KP (25) * Frank (22) Average age for those eight? Just a little over 26 and a half. IN 2020!!! That gives you another 7 roster spots to add a couple vets looking to get rings, and a handful of talented young guys, and who knows? Maybe one more superstar? I like where this team is pointed. Stick with Hornacek, and stay this course. If you've been watching and you can't detect something potentially special on the horizon, you're not paying attention. This group is the closest thing we've seen to those tough '90s Knicks teams that we loved.

How are you paying one more superstar? That team in 2020 is super capped out, and unless you hit it out the park with this upcoming draft pick and Frank becomes a mega star, thats not a ring chasing team.

You're assuming there's no growth in any of the players, it seems. And why couldn't the Knicks get a few good draft picks?

Assume O'Quinn is traded ... what are the Knicks getting back for him? In 3 years will they have a guy who replaces what he offers to the team and the city/fan base?

Celts - Semi Ojeleye and their #1 pick in the bottom of the 1st round

Bucks - let's assume they are "going for it", give me Rashad Vaughn and DJ Wilson

Spurs - Derrick White

this are all young players that have very nice upside and are cost controlled for multiple years (a key variable)

but there are only a few guys who, if they were traded, I wouldn't care. Sessions and Beasley at the top of that list for me.

in what universe does this happen? You're proposing keeping everyone which means paying everyone. So you're not getting anyone via cap space and this team wouldn't be bad enough to pick high enough to get another star.

I get it that this team is a "feel good" story right now and is exceeding expectations, but they should 100% still be in asset gathering mode. If that means trading a guy like KOQ, who's a pending UFA, or nearly anyone else on the roster, you do it.

Sessions
Beasley
Thomas

And Lee makes close to $12 million.

In comment 13700171 Beezer said:

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You're assuming there's no growth in any of the players, it seems. And why couldn't the Knicks get a few good draft picks? Assume O'Quinn is traded ... what are the Knicks getting back for him? In 3 years will they have a guy who replaces what he offers to the team and the city/fan base?

I mean what does he offer thats so irreplaceable? He's a good back up big. He's a FA after this season. You take the asset and roll the dice and hope for the best with the young asset.

As far as championship- I told you what that would take. Look what GS has or what Philly is putting together. It'll take some major jumps from Frank and whoever you draft for the roster to become a championship contender with that lineup you put together.

the Knicks couldn't find another very strong player in the next couple drafts? Maybe there's your superstar.

I know I'm being extremely optimistic. I just really like O'Quinn and his whole storyline/presence.

You're paying Kanter/THJ/KP 70MM alone. You cant afford another superstar.

Trey Burke is somewhat of a gunner, but a willing passer and is defending like his career is on the line (which it is). Also looks like he has worked on his body and explosiveness since I've last seen him.

Isiah Hicks looks like a nice developmental project. Reminds me of a less offensively skilled Morris twin, but plays hard, has an NBA body, good rim protector/rebounder.

Luke Kornet, Nigel Hayes - non-prospects.

Dame Dotson - very impressive shooter, defender, rebounder...really look forward to him getting consistent NBA time once the NYK management realizes Lance Thomas sucks or trades Courtney Lee

In comment 13700193 Sgrcts said:

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You're paying Kanter/THJ/KP 70MM alone. You cant afford another superstar.

At the same time, Lee, Noah, Thomas and Baker make $40.6 million right now.

Staggering that Baker makes $4.3 million ... just this year ... and Thomas is being paid $6.7 million. THIS YEAR!!! Ugh.

If they keep playing well he may end up with executive of the year.

is finally pointed in the right direction for this team, but there is still a lot of heaving lifting to do if they're even going to be a real contender. The cap situation is still not good thanks to Phil (hardly any cap room while KP is still cheap) and there's not nearly enough in the asset pile to trade for a star, should one come available.

In comment 13700204 steve in ky said:

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If they keep playing well he may end up with executive of the year.

I think Ainge's name is already engraved on that.

In comment 13700213 Enzo said:

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In comment 13700204 steve in ky said: Quote: If they keep playing well he may end up with executive of the year. I think Ainge's name is already engraved on that.

For sure, laser etched and already in a UPS box for him.

A lot of the future of this roster is tied to Frank's development. We will have to make the big decisions at the end of next season. By then we should have a better idea if Frank can develop into a star. Then pieces like Mcbuckets and Kanter fit very well around him and KP.

every single knicks thread turns into a debate about money that isn't even available or unavailable yet. At this point who cares. No point worrying at this moment. A lot can and will happen over the next 2 years.

This team isn't building for today it's building for 2-3 years from now. Either they keep guys like Kanter or Oquinn or McBuckets or they don't. They don't have to make any decisions right now. If the Knicks want to go star hunting in 1-2 years they will have to let some of these pending money makers walk in the meantime or make a trade or two. Simple as that.

In comment 13700360 djm said:

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every single knicks thread turns into a debate about money that isn't even available or unavailable yet. At this point who cares. No point worrying at this moment. A lot can and will happen over the next 2 years. This team isn't building for today it's building for 2-3 years from now. Either they keep guys like Kanter or Oquinn or McBuckets or they don't. They don't have to make any decisions right now. If the Knicks want to go star hunting in 1-2 years they will have to let some of these pending money makers walk in the meantime or make a trade or two. Simple as that.

Exactly. Everyone wants to add that mythical "star" to make us a championship contender, but the fact is unless we get competitive they won't come here any way.

In comment 13700360 djm said:

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every single knicks thread turns into a debate about money that isn't even available or unavailable yet. At this point who cares. No point worrying at this moment. A lot can and will happen over the next 2 years. This team isn't building for today it's building for 2-3 years from now. Either they keep guys like Kanter or Oquinn or McBuckets or they don't. They don't have to make any decisions right now. If the Knicks want to go star hunting in 1-2 years they will have to let some of these pending money makers walk in the meantime or make a trade or two. Simple as that.

My point was that I see potential for a solid core developing together. Three years from now the average age of the 8 I showed will STILL be under 27 years old, with the two potentially biggest stars 25 and 22 years old ... again, THREE YEARS FROM NOW! That's a crazy nice place to be.

In comment 13700378 Beezer said:

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In comment 13700360 djm said: Quote: every single knicks thread turns into a debate about money that isn't even available or unavailable yet. At this point who cares. No point worrying at this moment. A lot can and will happen over the next 2 years. This team isn't building for today it's building for 2-3 years from now. Either they keep guys like Kanter or Oquinn or McBuckets or they don't. They don't have to make any decisions right now. If the Knicks want to go star hunting in 1-2 years they will have to let some of these pending money makers walk in the meantime or make a trade or two. Simple as that. My point was that I see potential for a solid core developing together. Three years from now the average age of the 8 I showed will STILL be under 27 years old, with the two potentially biggest stars 25 and 22 years old ... again, THREE YEARS FROM NOW! That's a crazy nice place to be.

solid is nice but "solid" doesn't get you to the finals. You don't want to be locked in and capped out paying huge money for a team that has a 50 win ceiling.

In comment 13700368 Stu11 said:

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In comment 13700360 djm said: Quote: every single knicks thread turns into a debate about money that isn't even available or unavailable yet. At this point who cares. No point worrying at this moment. A lot can and will happen over the next 2 years. This team isn't building for today it's building for 2-3 years from now. Either they keep guys like Kanter or Oquinn or McBuckets or they don't. They don't have to make any decisions right now. If the Knicks want to go star hunting in 1-2 years they will have to let some of these pending money makers walk in the meantime or make a trade or two. Simple as that. Exactly. Everyone wants to add that mythical "star" to make us a championship contender, but the fact is unless we get competitive they won't come here any way.

I tend to agree, at some point that have to start keeping good players and building something around who they do have. A guy like Kanter who was a high draft pick himself, and only 25 himself seems like someone who is perfect fit with KP moving forward.

and if they do, the team acquiring them usually can make some cap room if needed. That is a problem for a later time. The key now is to acquire as many good contracts and assets as possible.

You are assuming there is no progression when in reality, there could be. KP, Ntilikina, THJr, McDermott, Kanter, Hernangomez(although I am def down on him), whoever we draft this next draft are all young players with room to grow. I'm ok keeping this core together and trying to build around them.

Just let it play out.

In comment 13700471 Keith said:

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You are assuming there is no progression when in reality, there could be. KP, Ntilikina, THJr, McDermott, Kanter, Hernangomez(although I am def down on him), whoever we draft this next draft are all young players with room to grow. I'm ok keeping this core together and trying to build around them. Just let it play out.

Yeah, it's a good idea to let this play out a bit. Mills made a comment a few weeks ago about these players not having much stability lately, and they (Mills/Perry) are trying to create some going forward. I don't expect massive roster turnover year after year.

An added benefit of compiling some good young pieces is that it puts you in good position if/when a star player goes on the trading block. As we know, teams never get equal value when trading a star, but they still need enough good young talent to make it palatable.

as the megastar, could bring this franchise a title if they wisely build around him.

This is not until the post-LeBron/Golden State era but still could happen.

There is still growth with KP, strength/physicality specifically.

Frank, Hardaway, Kanter, McD...these guys can all grow up together and with the right moves in the future their chances are right up there with Philly, Boston and some of the other up and coming young teams.

still figures to be pretty significant turnover in the off-season. Jack, Sessions, Beasley, KOQ, McDermott (RFA), Kanter (Option) are all FA and I doubt they are especially tied to keeping Baker, Thomas, Noah or Lee. They also have 3 picks they will have to roster (their 1st, Bulls 2nd and their own or LAC's 2nd). I could see at least 1/3 of the roster being different next season.

to miss the entire season with back surgery.

have some turnover year to year. I'm not worried about the spare parts like Jack, Beasley, Sessions, etc., but there will be tough decisions regarding the logjam of bigs and the max amount you'd be willing to match on McBuckets.

next years team should consist of KP, Hardaway, Kanter, Ntilikina, Lance Thomas(unfortunately), McDermott, Noah, Dotson and possibly Lee, Willy and KOQ. That's a solid core to bring back.

They can use their 2nd rounders on foreign players who are a year or two away. I don't think there will be that much turnover to be honest.

keep Doug if his contract were reasonable, I'd shop Lee hard. Nothing against Lee but he's 33 next season and I believe Dotson can replace him on the cheap.

I like Mikal Bridges from Nova as a sleeper. I wonder if the Knicks would draft a PG if a guy they loved were there.

Bol Bol committed to Oregon, people thought he might end up a package deal with Zion Williamson

Knick
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In comment 13700172 Pep22 said:

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Celts - Semi Ojeleye and their #1 pick in the bottom of the 1st round Bucks - let's assume they are "going for it", give me Rashad Vaughn and DJ Wilson Spurs - Derrick White this are all young players that have very nice upside and are cost controlled for multiple years (a key variable)

I like O'Quinn and he's a had a solid year, but you aren't getting that from the Celtics.

is team controlled for 4 years. He alone for KOQ is a win (assuming the plan isn't to sign KOQ). I doubt the Celtics would even do that much. Wouldn't have my mind blown to see the Bucks give up Vaughn but Vaughn AND Wilson? No chance. Vaughn is still only 21 and playing well in limited minutes and Wilson just went 17th overall this past season and has 4 years of control. I'd do KOQ for Wilson straight up, doubt the Bucks would.

are a good place to look for a future Knick. I do think they'd take a penetrating point guard if they could get their hands on one - they need SOMEONE who can really break down a defense. It's no knock on Frank, but that's obviously not his game.

Does he replace Supranowitz? For normal teams the PR guy is probably relatively unknown...but at MSG Supranowitz has been caught up in some of the media policy nonsense over the years and has been an antagonist of Isola since the 90s. Oh, and he sits behind the bench every night, lol. So I wonder if he's been canned.
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In comment 13700575 bceagle05 said:

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are a good place to look for a future Knick. I do think they'd take a penetrating point guard if they could get their hands on one - they need SOMEONE who can really break down a defense. It's no knock on Frank, but that's obviously not his game.

Just be clear I wasn't asking about a PG as a swipe at Frank, rather wondering if the right guy fell to their pick if they might take more of a pure facilitator at the 1.

In comment 13700528 DanMetroMan said:

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keep Doug if his contract were reasonable

I think at a minimum he's getting the full MLE...so I see that as a starting point. And who knows, he may only be interested in a short term deal so he can go back into the market in 1-2 years if nobody is willing to offer him significant money.

that i hate all the money talk in every sport. Truly. I hate it. Yes there's a cap and in some cases contracts can and will make or break a franchise but I think at times the talk is way too overstated.

The fact that every single Knicks thread someone is going to have someone mention the contract of Thomas or what's his name...who cares.

Just my take. I think the player or coach financials being front and center in pro sports have done a lot of damage to the game or at the very least completely corrupted the narrative. And it's ruined any objectivity. Again, I get the importance of valuable contracts vs bad ones. I just hate that every single time someone brings up Tim Hardaway JR someone else mentions the money. In baseball it's even worse because there really isn't any real cap to speak of. Whatever, it's what fans like to talk about now but I am here to say it sucks. And I will say it again and again.

In comment 13700602 Enzo said:

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In comment 13700528 DanMetroMan said: Quote: keep Doug if his contract were reasonable I think at a minimum he's getting the full MLE...so I see that as a starting point. And who knows, he may only be interested in a short term deal so he can go back into the market in 1-2 years if nobody is willing to offer him significant money.

Obviously his value will be impacted by how he looks for the remainder of the season. I like him a lot but not so much I'm gambling on massive improvement going forward. I like him enough that he's on my "Very open to keeping him if he continues to look like this" whereas previously he felt like a pure rental. Lance Thomas on the other hand could retire tomorrow and I'd be quite happy.

In comment 13700614 djm said:

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that i hate all the money talk in every sport. Truly. I hate it. Yes there's a cap and in some cases contracts can and will make or break a franchise but I think at times the talk is way too overstated. The fact that every single Knicks thread someone is going to have someone mention the contract of Thomas or what's his name...who cares. Just my take. I think the player or coach financials being front and center in pro sports have done a lot of damage to the game or at the very least completely corrupted the narrative. And it's ruined any objectivity. Again, I get the importance of valuable contracts vs bad ones. I just hate that every single time someone brings up Tim Hardaway JR someone else mentions the money. In baseball it's even worse because there really isn't any real cap to speak of. Whatever, it's what fans like to talk about now but I am here to say it sucks. And I will say it again and again.

All due respect but that doesn't really make a ton of sense. The NBA's salary cap is essentially a puzzle, you need to make pieces (money) fit. So you can't just blindly go "ya know what? I'd pay to keep Kanter, Dougie, keep Lee, keep KOQ and I'll worry about the rest later". The "rest" is remaining cap room, where does the team improve without it? The current roster has some decent pieces but they also have a 0.0% chance of ever competing for a title without significant additions (at minimum one very good player). It's not as if this group can surprise and win a title "as is" or "some additions around the edges". No, they need a real influx so you need that cap room.

I agree, the cap always has to be a part of the conversation. At this point, there is so much unknown to really speak in absolutes. What if this team continues to improve and somehow gets in at the 4 seed and wins a round? Are you breaking it up to keep flexibility? I'd think the opposite. This is a young group with room to improve. I might want to keep most of the pieces together. Salary cap space isn't as important as good young players on good deals.

On the flip side, if things turn south and we are sitting out of the playoff picture by teh deadline, it might behoove us gather assets.

Of course you wont agree. You always talk contracts. Look I get it, and I said twice that I get the dynamic. I just think its overstated by far too many. I hate when fans bitch about player contracts. That's just how I feel. And even with the cap dynamic there are times where a thread that goes on for 14 pages centering on the cap is just ridiculous. Talk about losing the innocence of the sport.

In my view Pro sports haven't been corrupted by money, they have been corrupted by the public's knowledge of that money.

I never said "you know what fuck it pay him"

Vortex here we come.

where I disagree is when you say 0%. I know you do that often for effect, but it's not reality. KP has the potential to be a mega star that you can build around. Did the Mavericks have a team of studs in 2011 when they won? Lots to be determined still on that front. Lets see how it unfolds.

In comment 13700632 djm said:

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Of course you wont agree. You always talk contracts. Look I get it, and I said twice that I get the dynamic. I just think its overstated by far too many. I hate when fans bitch about player contracts. That's just how I feel. And even with the cap dynamic there are times where a thread that goes on for 14 pages centering on the cap is just ridiculous. Talk about losing the innocence of the sport. In my view Pro sports haven't been corrupted by money, they have been corrupted by the public's knowledge of that money.

I get your point, but there isn't a sport where it matters as much as the NBA. In football, it means little as there are so many ways to move things around to clear space and so many ways to get out from contracts. Baseball its meaningless other than for fans and in teh NBA its vital to the discussion. It's just reality with the NBA.

I get the cap dynamics. Trust me I do. I just think there is too much financial crap brought up in sports talk in general. At times it's warranted. At times it's not really relevant or necessary. That's all.

In comment 13700632 djm said:

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Of course you wont agree. You always talk contracts. Look I get it, and I said twice that I get the dynamic. I just think its overstated by far too many. I hate when fans bitch about player contracts. That's just how I feel. And even with the cap dynamic there are times where a thread that goes on for 14 pages centering on the cap is just ridiculous. Talk about losing the innocence of the sport. In my view Pro sports haven't been corrupted by money, they have been corrupted by the public's knowledge of that money.

You vehemently told I was wrong about the Noah contract on nearly a daily basis. You insisted i was wrong and a bitter fan for not being happy about the deal. You don't think his contract being off the books would = a better Knicks team? Contracts are a major part of the NBA and building a team whether you like it or not. I don't care how much Joakim Noah makes, I care how much money Joakim Noah takes up of the Knicks salary cap. If you told me Dolan could pay Noah 100 million to go away and have zero cap influence going forward I'd jump for joy. I don't give 2 shits how much players make, I care how much they impact the remainder of the team being good and yes, in my case as a Mets fan mediocre player Y making far too much money directly impacts how good the team is because of what is essentially a self-enforced "salary cap". The % of people who care how much each player make in terms of "being overpaid" on BBI is extremely low (if they exist at all).

The NBA is all about the cap. It along with the NHL is the most cap driven sport being played.

But I do feel aggrieved when I see Tim Hardaway making $71 million to be the same lump of mediocrity he's always been.

Don't always love the shot selection, but I've been happy with him overall. Plays really hard, great finisher on the break, can create offense and take the ball to the rim when we need it.

I never flat out said anyone was wrong for being skeptical about the Noah move I said some of you were freaking out when it might not be a terrible deal. I essentially said to give it time. I defended the move sort of but I was never in love with it. I'd show you the archived convo I had with a coworker where I said that he's a huge age and injury risk and the Knicks would probably be better off without Noah and his contract.

I defended it here because you guys went ape shit. Vortex. It's happening.

In comment 13700636 Keith said:

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where I disagree is when you say 0%. I know you do that often for effect, but it's not reality. KP has the potential to be a mega star that you can build around. Did the Mavericks have a team of studs in 2011 when they won? Lots to be determined still on that front. Lets see how it unfolds.

Keeping ALL of these guys would essentially mean adding NOBODY of note to the roster so yeah close to 0% chance. O'Quinn for example will likely double his salary, Dougie will get likely 4 times his current salary. If the Knicks opted to resign all of their current "guys people like" then the odds of them ever winning a title (barring draft luck) are extremely, extremely low. People always cite the Mavs, how many times in the last 30 years has a team like the Mavs won a title? Once and that team still had future 1st ballot HOFer Dirk, Chandler with a .218 WS/48 and 6 players with a WS/48 over .116. The current Knicks have 3 suck players (Kanter, Porzingis, KOQ)

almost definitely our 2nd best player on a team that's been the most fun team to watch in a LONG time. And he's still got room to grow. If he tones down on some of the rushed 3 pointers and takes the ball to the hole more he can be a very good player....and in today's NBA dollars he's not really overpaid by much.

In comment 13700632 djm said:

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Of course you wont agree. You always talk contracts. Look I get it, and I said twice that I get the dynamic. I just think its overstated by far too many. I hate when fans bitch about player contracts. That's just how I feel. And even with the cap dynamic there are times where a thread that goes on for 14 pages centering on the cap is just ridiculous. Talk about losing the innocence of the sport. In my view Pro sports haven't been corrupted by money, they have been corrupted by the public's knowledge of that money.

well at least we know why you were always defending Phil's moves. Sorry if some of us want to have informed discussions based on facts and reality. If you want to be willfully ignorant, have at it...but in the NBA the CBA has more of an impact on how a roster is built than any other sport. Thinking other fans are "overstating" its importance is ridiculous.

Two more years of Noah's annoying contract won't sink this franchise to unrecoverable depths. It sucks but whatever, move on. Knicks will recover.

not suck

but the truth is the Knicks have been more reckless in their spending than any franchise in sports over the past 15 years. If Steve Mills hasn't learned hard lessons from the past, we're still in big trouble going forward.

We need to do a better job of finding cheap labor. Trading Lee and letting Dotson handle the back-up SG duties next year, for example, would be a nice step in the right direction.

Old school bigs who do the "dirty work" are typically employed as mercenaries on one-year deals (think Andrew Bogut) or found in the draft. We gave a four-year deal to Robin Lopez, than traded him and gave a more expensive four-year deal to Noah, and now may stretch Noah and give another big deal to Kanter. All this while the league keeps getting smaller. We need to change that approach, too.

Thx sunshine. Phil gave us KP. Best knick since Ewing. Phil the savior. Say it with me.

Fuck off.

In comment 13700650 Greg from LI said:

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But I do feel aggrieved when I see Tim Hardaway making $71 million to be the same lump of mediocrity he's always been.

I didn't like the Hardaway contract then, I still don't like it now, but he's been good so far.

In comment 13700663 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 13700636 Keith said: Quote: where I disagree is when you say 0%. I know you do that often for effect, but it's not reality. KP has the potential to be a mega star that you can build around. Did the Mavericks have a team of studs in 2011 when they won? Lots to be determined still on that front. Lets see how it unfolds. Keeping ALL of these guys would essentially mean adding NOBODY of note to the roster so yeah close to 0% chance. O'Quinn for example will likely double his salary, Dougie will get likely 4 times his current salary. If the Knicks opted to resign all of their current "guys people like" then the odds of them ever winning a title (barring draft luck) are extremely, extremely low. People always cite the Mavs, how many times in the last 30 years has a team like the Mavs won a title? Once and that team still had future 1st ballot HOFer Dirk, Chandler with a .218 WS/48 and 6 players with a WS/48 over .116. The current Knicks have 3 suck players (Kanter, Porzingis, KOQ)

I have NEVER cited the Mavs before this. It's reality. The Mavs won ONE time, but they were a top western team for a decade. You wouldn't sign up for that? You just named 2 guys that are so young and have so much room to grow. They also have other young players that can improve. Yep, need some draft luck, but it's not that crazy to think we can find a diamond in the rough somewhere and find a way to add some ancillary talent.

In comment 13700667 djm said:

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Two more years of Noah's annoying contract won't sink this franchise to unrecoverable depths. It sucks but whatever, move on. Knicks will recover.

Again, no disrespect intended but this is where your view and most people's views diverge. Imagine what this team looks like right now with a "legit" 18 million dollar player replacing Noah? Or 2 9 million dollar players? His contract absolutely impacts what the Knicks look like now and going forward.

KP will get paid, and deservedly so.
Frank, Willy and Dotson are all here on the cheap for a few years (barring a trade).
Hardaway is an overpay, but not a crippling one.
We can match any reasonable deals on McDermott.
We have all our picks going forward.

If a strong foundation emerges from that cluster over the next year, we'll be in good shape.

In comment 13700677 Keith said:

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In comment 13700663 DanMetroMan said: Quote: In comment 13700636 Keith said: Quote: where I disagree is when you say 0%. I know you do that often for effect, but it's not reality. KP has the potential to be a mega star that you can build around. Did the Mavericks have a team of studs in 2011 when they won? Lots to be determined still on that front. Lets see how it unfolds. Keeping ALL of these guys would essentially mean adding NOBODY of note to the roster so yeah close to 0% chance. O'Quinn for example will likely double his salary, Dougie will get likely 4 times his current salary. If the Knicks opted to resign all of their current "guys people like" then the odds of them ever winning a title (barring draft luck) are extremely, extremely low. People always cite the Mavs, how many times in the last 30 years has a team like the Mavs won a title? Once and that team still had future 1st ballot HOFer Dirk, Chandler with a .218 WS/48 and 6 players with a WS/48 over .116. The current Knicks have 3 suck players (Kanter, Porzingis, KOQ) I have NEVER cited the Mavs before this. It's reality. The Mavs won ONE time, but they were a top western team for a decade. You wouldn't sign up for that? You just named 2 guys that are so young and have so much room to grow. They also have other young players that can improve. Yep, need some draft luck, but it's not that crazy to think we can find a diamond in the rough somewhere and find a way to add some ancillary talent.

To be clear I said "people" always cite the Mavs (just as they cite the Pistons 2004). I don't mean to shit on Frank at all but I'll go on record saying I'd be very surprised if he's ever a "very good" offensive player. Defensively he could be special but the Knicks are going to need to add some legit talent to this roster that doesn't currently exist. I also believe counting Kanter/Willy is almost akin to doubling up as I don't see any possibility those 2 ever play together and certainly hard to see a scenario where KP/KOQ/Kanter/Willy are all significantly players on the same team.

offensive player, not just scorer. He's not a bad ball handler, despite everyone parroting that narrative. He's got good vision and the desire to share the rock. That's a great start. He has no confidence, but his shot looks good fundamentally. I think he will learn to drive and finish more and use his length to make up for the lack of quickness and explosiveness. He will be a special defensive player, so if he can improve on offense, he will be a key player.

absolutely has a negative impact on the roster. I'm wrong ALL the time but I distinctly remember some on here arguing that Noah's deal was better than Rudy Gobert's.... replace Noah with actual good players making 18 million and the Knicks roster would look so much better. "Who cares about money?" is akin to having your head in the clouds.

In comment 13700672 djm said:

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Thx sunshine. Phil gave us KP. Best knick since Ewing. Phil the savior. Say it with me. Fuck off.

we really need to keep a running list of just how many times you've been dead wrong on a Knick trade or free agent signing. It's remarkable how often it happens. You'd think you might get one right once in a while just by accident.

I never mentioned Noah. My posts have nothing to do with his contract.

Simply put I don't like the majority of pro sports talk centers on MONEY. You guys are fucking relentless. Don't fucking twist words (enzo) I have been watching the NBA and it's glorious cap for 35 years. I get it. I just don't like how pro sport debates or discussions always center on the salaries. In a perfect world it wouldn't exist in that same fashion. Fuck man...I say one thing and we go to Noah's contract debate.

In comment 13700690 DanMetroMan said:

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absolutely has a negative impact on the roster. I'm wrong ALL the time but I distinctly remember some on here arguing that Noah's deal was better than Rudy Gobert's.... replace Noah with actual good players making 18 million and the Knicks roster would look so much better. "Who cares about money?" is akin to having your head in the clouds.

the same folks saying that were the same ones saying "first rounders don't matter" right after the Bargs trade.

just think you are putting two premises together and equating the two as equal. MOST fans don't care what players make. We know they "all" make a ton. But many of us DO care what they make in relation to the salary cap. As I said if they could pay Joakim Noah and Ron Baker double their current owed money but they simply disappeared from the cap I think 99% of fans would be more than happy to see them get paid.

1 year deal-Excellent deal
2 year deal-Good deal
3 year deal-pushing it and too much risk
4 year deal-a big problem

I was definitely on board for seeing what Noah had, but it had to be a short term deal and we are now seeing why. It's a devastating contract for the Knicks right now. Of course we probably wouldn't have that space if we didn't sign Noah, we would have just spent it on someone else.

In comment 13700691 Enzo said:

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In comment 13700672 djm said: Quote: Thx sunshine. Phil gave us KP. Best knick since Ewing. Phil the savior. Say it with me. Fuck off. we really need to keep a running list of just how many times you've been dead wrong on a Knick trade or free agent signing. It's remarkable how often it happens. You'd think you might get one right once in a while just by accident.

Dude you really took this to another level. Good job.

I know I was right about KP. Check the archives.

I don't keep score on internet message board debates. I know I am a pretty smart person overall, sports or in general. I get some wrong. Some right.

Thanks for taking this to another place. Kindly ignore me.

that i basically said I just wish pro sports in general had less of a financial stigma attached to it and this place goes fucking bat shit. I guess I touched a nerve? Wasn't my intentions believe me...

In comment 13700698 Keith said:

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1 year deal-Excellent deal 2 year deal-Good deal 3 year deal-pushing it and too much risk 4 year deal-a big problem I was definitely on board for seeing what Noah had, but it had to be a short term deal and we are now seeing why. It's a devastating contract for the Knicks right now. Of course we probably wouldn't have that space if we didn't sign Noah, we would have just spent it on someone else.

Yup (while I didn't particularly want Noah because of his injury stuff). 1-2 years would have been fine (though if people recall the rumor was the Wizards were going to offer him 4 years and "max" money and people were going nuts with laughter, people found the idea preposterous). The Noah deal is and always will be because Phil thought he was smarter than the room, nothing less nothing more. 1-2 years "why not? we stink, lets change the culture" whatever. 4 years was wild.

I think his point is that many fans seemingly enjoy discussing contracts and future seasons salaries, future possible players and their possible salaries, and how that all fits together more than they do the actual games they are watching and game play that is occurring on the court.

Maybe it's a generational thing, kind of how so many younger baseball fans often seem to prefer to discuss sabermetrics more than some of the older fans do.

I'm not saying either is wrong and any fan should be able to enjoy watching/following his teams however he most enjoys. But clearly some people enjoy analyzing salaries more where other fans prefer to just talk more about the play occurring on the court.

Personally I don't mind discussing salaries when it matters and the team is actually making decisions and moves, but I kind of agree that when the season is happening I am more caught up in the games and who is doing what. Then at whatever point when a move is being made I am interested in how it shapes the team. Constant evaluating the exact same thing over and over for each game gets a little redundant for me.

should be sent to the G-League. There isn't much to be gained with him not playing at all.

In comment 13700712 steve in ky said:

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I think his point is that many fans seemingly enjoy discussing contracts and future seasons salaries, future possible players and their possible salaries, and how that all fits together more than they do the actual games they are watching and game play that is occurring on the court. Maybe it's a generational thing, kind of how so many younger baseball fans often seem to prefer to discuss sabermetrics more than some of the older fans do. I'm not saying either is wrong and any fan should be able to enjoy watching/following his teams however he most enjoys. But clearly some people enjoy analyzing salaries more where other fans prefer to just talk more about the play occurring on the court. Personally I don't mind discussing salaries when it matters and the team is actually making decisions and moves, but I kind of agree that when the season is happening I am more caught up in the games and who is doing what. Then at whatever point when a move is being made I am interested in how it shapes the team. Constant evaluating the exact same thing over and over for each game gets a little redundant for me.

I can only speak for myself, but trust me, I wish I didn't have things like "base year compensation" and "traded player exception" floating around in my head. The NBA CBA is the most unnecessarily complicated thing in all of sports. But it's impossible to have an informed discussion about the NBA without a basic understanding of cap rules and contracts.

We are in the midst of an exciting little run with a light at the end of the tunnel. We should just enjoy it, not worry about next year and the cap and all the other stuff. So much still needs to be decided before we know the best direction to go.

I'm guilty of it too. When we traded Melo, I was all about trading Kanter immediately, but I am so glad we didn't. He can potentially be a building block for this team.

In comment 13700650 Greg from LI said:

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But I do feel aggrieved when I see Tim Hardaway making $71 million to be the same lump of mediocrity he's always been.

Have you missed the last 10+ games?

Also, relatively speaking, 4y/$71mm is not a huge contract.

In comment 13700716 DanMetroMan said:

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should be sent to the G-League. There isn't much to be gained with him not playing at all.

I agree with this, but maybe they feel he's better off practicing against guys like Kanter and Noah? They've had a ton of home games, so maybe there's been more practices than usual.

Dotson during his 3 games there 17 and 8, 2 assists, 1 steal 46% from the field, 53% from 3 (I really wish they could find some PT for Dotson, while it's impossible to argue Willy over Kanter right now I do think some of Lee's minutes should go to Dotson)

Hayes 17 and 7, 1 steal 53% from the field 48% from 3 (didn't look like an NBA athlete to me during the summer but has played well)

Kornet 14 and 6, 42% from the field, 36% from 3

Burke 23 and 6 with 2 steals, 4 boards 49% from the field, 39% from 3. Burke just needs to be patient, odds are Jack doesn't last all season and Burke presumably is "next" in the PG pecking order unless they go with Baker...

In comment 13700723 Enzo said:

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In comment 13700716 DanMetroMan said: Quote: should be sent to the G-League. There isn't much to be gained with him not playing at all. I agree with this, but maybe they feel he's better off practicing against guys like Kanter and Noah? They've had a ton of home games, so maybe there's been more practices than usual.

I just think at some point playing against actual competition has value. It's not as if he can't be around the team, they have shuttled guys before. Hard to imagine he'd even have the cardio to go 20-25 per night if he's not playing in games soon.

In comment 13700733 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 13700723 Enzo said: Quote: In comment 13700716 DanMetroMan said: Quote: should be sent to the G-League. There isn't much to be gained with him not playing at all. I agree with this, but maybe they feel he's better off practicing against guys like Kanter and Noah? They've had a ton of home games, so maybe there's been more practices than usual. I just think at some point playing against actual competition has value. It's not as if he can't be around the team, they have shuttled guys before. Hard to imagine he'd even have the cardio to go 20-25 per night if he's not playing in games soon.

if they ever get around to activating Noah, then they almost need to send Wily there. Is there somewhere lower than the G-League where they can send Baker?

In comment 13700679 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 13700667 djm said: Quote: Two more years of Noah's annoying contract won't sink this franchise to unrecoverable depths. It sucks but whatever, move on. Knicks will recover. Again, no disrespect intended but this is where your view and most people's views diverge. Imagine what this team looks like right now with a "legit" 18 million dollar player replacing Noah? Or 2 9 million dollar players? His contract absolutely impacts what the Knicks look like now and going forward.

Never said his contract didn't impact things. It sucks. I've said that.

Forget it. You guys took my comments as if I was shitting all over salary cap talk. I don't necessarily love "cap talk" but I get it. The cap dynamic is the very fabric of successful NBA play.

I should have prefaced my comments with one key point: I HATE SALARY CAPS.

That's all. You guys are great. I learn more from most of you on here than I care to admit. Even you enzo.

is that an olive branch you just extended or a knife that looks camaflouged to look like an olive branch?

almost 18 4 and 4 on 45 percent shooting with better defense is pretty good...

take away the first three games and he is at 20 ppg

In comment 13700741 nygiants16 said:

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almost 18 4 and 4 on 45 percent shooting with better defense is pretty good... take away the first three games and he is at 20 ppg

He's going to be polarizing. He's a scorer who is an averageish defender and at times can have questionable shot selection. He's been hot and cold at times but overall he's been good. That said he was paid what he was paid with the idea last year was the beginning of a breakout not "all he is". If he "only" plays this well then his contract is fine, but the hope is there is more there, an additional level. His 3point % should rise but (and I'm not looking to knock him) but he does take really really maddening 3's at times for a guy who isn't a deadeye long range shooter.

for context he's averaging 8.3 3pt FGA per 36 despite only shooting 31% from 3, KP is averaging 5.5 (despite hitting 40%).

than I had remembered him being.

That ability has helped them already this season in games where they their shooting was off and they desperately needed a basket or two. And while he can sometimes force it he has had the knack for hitting some important 3's

In comment 13700740 Keith said:

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is that an olive branch you just extended or a knife that looks camaflouged to look like an olive branch?

I hate going to bed angry. Olive branch, although honestly I didn't start this he brought it to another level. Thing is questioning my intelligence or sports smarts doesn't threaten me. I know I'm brilliant.

there are times he takes a 3 and i am loke what are you doing, especially when he can get to the rim at will...

It's not that fans enjoy discussing money, they enjoy discussing roster construction. Part of that is fitting salaries under the cap. I got in arguments last year with fans saying Noah's contract didn't matter because the Knicks were rebuilding and wouldn't be in the FA market. I don't begrudge players getting paid and think most of them deserve every dollar, but when a guy like Noah is taking up 20% of the salary cap for the next 3 years and is unplayable, it effects your team. It's an opportunity cost. It could easily be the difference in having the luxury to keep Mcdermott, KOQ etc.

My issue with the Knicks is that they never hold their ground and agree to "team friendly" deals. Did Ron Baker need a player option ( let alone any guaranteed money)? Lance Thomas 4 years guaranteed? Even Hardaway getting a player option or trying to sign him for 60 mill instead of 72. Every dollar counts in the NBA, just look at Celtics this offseason.

But for the people saying Hardaway has been mediocre or disappointing? You must not be watching the games. I wasn't a fan of the contract or the player, but I've been wrong so far. He's been very good for the Knicks and a big reason why they are winning games. And he's getting paid as the 16th highest SG in the NBA and providing good value for that.

in all you can see the makings of a really solid/nice piece of a good team. He needs to continue developing and improve his decision making, drive more than shoot so many 3's and continue to work defensively. At times he actually reminds me of one of my favorite Knicks ever... John Starks.

In comment 13700759 nygiants16 said:

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there are times he takes a 3 and i am loke what are you doing, especially when he can get to the rim at will...

Shot selection and defensive focus definitely need improvement. A guy that athletic shouldn't be getting beat backdoor and should at least be an average defender. But those things can be improved. It's not asking Kidd Gilchrist to become a 20point scorer or some other unrealistic improvement/ projection.

In comment 13700756 djm said:

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In comment 13700740 Keith said: Quote: is that an olive branch you just extended or a knife that looks camaflouged to look like an olive branch? I hate going to bed angry. Olive branch, although honestly I didn't start this he brought it to another level.

what level is that? The level where reasonable and informed discussions take place?

.thanks for moving on. You're a treasure.

Or anything you even said here? I made a simple point about money and pro sports. How the fuck can you turn that into an excuse to bash me? You must really hate me.

why don't they let him run the pick n roll w/ KP? With his shooting and ability to get to the basket I think that he'd be far more effective running the pick and roll than Grant or Frank would.

I'm sure i can come across a bit strong or condescending or whatever at times here. I have to sometimes remind myself or pull back a bit. I know clashed at times and I know full well I said shit to get under your skin. Whether I egged you on or you egged me on doesn't matter. If I stirred you up with my shit in the past, especially when the Knicks would hand out questionable contracts, I apologize. Let's move on. We want the same thing.

Unlike this year, there isn't much first round talent lighting up mocks at the pg spot. That said, if a quick, athletic pg floats to near the top of the second round, I think the Knicks might pounce. Maybe even better if he is a true high-end Eurostash.

In comment 13700802 manh george said:

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Unlike this year, there isn't much first round talent lighting up mocks at the pg spot. That said, if a quick, athletic pg floats to near the top of the second round, I think the Knicks might pounce. Maybe even better if he is a true high-end Eurostash.

It's an interesting question (at least to me) regarding what position(s) we'd ideally like to land in the draft. A C? SG? SF? I guess just talent, no matter at what position, huh?

Simply isn't very good. Saying that he's been the second best player on the Knicks says more about them than it does about him.

To Enzo and djm. Olive branches are a good thing

..

but he's nowhere near the rookie he was with the Knicks. Players do develop, after all.

In comment 13700817 Greg from LI said:

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Simply isn't very good. Saying that he's been the second best player on the Knicks says more about them than it does about him.

so dermar derozan is simply not very good?

we see them again tomorrow night.
Raptors rising - ( New Window )

and everything else. News at 11.

In comment 13700817 Greg from LI said:

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Simply isn't very good. Saying that he's been the second best player on the Knicks says more about them than it does about him.

how many Knick games have you even watched this season?

and not offcourt drama.

Come out come out wherever you are...

I already know.

B****.

What a joke.

And while there are a few guys that can do what hardaway does for a fraction of the cost at least hardaway is a decent player at two guard. More importantly he's a pretty good athlete or at least looks the part. Hardaway isn't getting by on savy or grit as much as he's getting his off of talent. From all accounts he is a hard worker. Add it all up, the talent, pedigree and commitment....:.I'd say it's reasonable to say he's got staying power or even room to grow. Knicks have had so many FA moves and in disaster at least this one looks to be at least chalk results, so to speak.

In comment 13700924 B in ALB said:

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Come out come out wherever you are... I already know. B****. What a joke.

What?

In comment 13700930 LawrenceTaylor56 said:

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In comment 13700924 B in ALB said: Quote: Come out come out wherever you are... I already know. B****. What a joke. What?

Somebody complained to the mods about me using the C word (which, as we all know has been thrown around liberally for years). All of a sudden.

And I know exactly who the little chickenhawk is on bbi. But he is too much of a bitch to come out and admit it.

Fact is, I worked his illiterate ass the other day and he's bitter. C*o*n.

Especially if like he says he has plenty of women who read this site. Just because people may not have made a bigger fuss about it in the past doesn't mean it wasn't objectionable. Plenty of ways to get your point across otherwise.

I called Blake Griffin a c***. Not only is that completely correct but it may be the most accurate description of a particular human being in the history of mankind.

I should be awarded a Pulitzer. Not issued a warning.

just to make myself feel mature, refined, and polite. It's like shopping at Wal-Mart to feel thin and goodlooking.

In comment 13700948 TJ said:

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just to make myself feel mature, refined, and polite. It's like shopping at Wal-Mart to feel thin and goodlooking.

That gave me a good chuckle!

People tattle telling like children.

No need to be a smarty pants.

Stand up and battle if you feel you are right. Don't run to the teacher. And I don't always agree with B. Now to the Knicks how can anyone complain? Bottom line the W's are where I thought we would be at the Break. I'll take it.