NFT: Knicks Thread 11/21

to have Frank playing in the G league. He's clearly gaining confidence and great experience playing for the Knicks, and he needs to build that on-court chemistry with his also-young teammates.

I feel for Willy, not getting the minutes. But if we can take Hornacek at his word, then it's a clear statement: improve your defense and you'll play. Right now, though, if there's a defensive hole in Hernangomez's game, putting him on the court when the team is logging a lot of solid stretches of excellent team individual and team defense would be a mistake for the team's success.

Assuming there's no BS, I like what Hornacek is doing.

Regarding Frank: He just needs to continue to play and learn. His defense can clearly become elite, as in first team all NBA D one day. His shot, handle and overall offensive game needs to improve but there is no reason to believe it won't as he builds confidence. So far, the pundits and draft analysts who said his ceiling was "solid starter" could definitely be wrong. He's not a franchise type player but I think he has all star potential.

Regarding Hardaway: He has done well so far. There is a lot to like but control and shot selection still gets away from him. As the leader of this team, I'd like to see KP stay on him about this, and we've already seen KP trying to calm him down when he gets out of control.

Regarding KP: KP could have it all. The one aspect of his overall game still holding him back is his physicality/toughness. We've seen it with Howard and LeBron so far, these guys are going to try to muscle him into submission. Deep down, I think the American players consider it a challenge when these European players come over and play really well. KP has to be up to the physical challenge of getting bodied and taking on the best defenders in the league. He needs to keep his weight up, he's going to have to not be afraid to play down low, and he has to stop flopping/going to the floor as much as he does.

So far they have been a pleasant surprise. Kanter and McD have been huge. Even KOQ, Jack and Thomas have done well in their roles so far. Pleasantly surprised.

Yep I get the counterargument. I'd just like to see him have a handful of games where he could freely shoot 10-15x and work on his offensive game.

Still, I get that the optics would be bad, especially with the media being anti-Knicks.

The latter will outweigh the former. In other words< I realize this has no chance of happening.

of trading O'Quinn. He's 27 years old and could have a very important role on this team as it develops over next 2-3 seasons. He turns 28 in March, so starting he'd be a 30-year-old leader and great teammate and locker room guy (who grew up in New York, mind you) who plays team ball, when the 2020-2021 season begins.

For fun, with some additions and subtractions, here's a look at the ages for what the core of a New York Knicks team starting the 2020-2021 season might look like:

* O'Quinn (30)
* Kanter (28)
* Hardaway (28)
* Dougie (28)
* Willy (26)
* Dotson (26)
* KP (25)
* Frank (22)

Average age for those eight? Just a little over 26 and a half. IN 2020!!!

That gives you another 7 roster spots to add a couple vets looking to get rings, and a handful of talented young guys, and who knows? Maybe one more superstar?

I like where this team is pointed. Stick with Hornacek, and stay this course. If you've been watching and you can't detect something potentially special on the horizon, you're not paying attention. This group is the closest thing we've seen to those tough '90s Knicks teams that we loved.

but we also don't really have the PG depth to send him to the D-league, either. It's ok if he has bad game here and there because he's smart enough to learn from them.

as anything. If the guy was battling the flu, let's give him a check mark in the "gamer" department, at very least.

In comment 13700155 Beezer said:

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of trading O'Quinn. He's 27 years old and could have a very important role on this team as it develops over next 2-3 seasons. He turns 28 in March, so starting he'd be a 30-year-old leader and great teammate and locker room guy (who grew up in New York, mind you) who plays team ball, when the 2020-2021 season begins. For fun, with some additions and subtractions, here's a look at the ages for what the core of a New York Knicks team starting the 2020-2021 season might look like: * O'Quinn (30) * Kanter (28) * Hardaway (28) * Dougie (28) * Willy (26) * Dotson (26) * KP (25) * Frank (22) Average age for those eight? Just a little over 26 and a half. IN 2020!!! That gives you another 7 roster spots to add a couple vets looking to get rings, and a handful of talented young guys, and who knows? Maybe one more superstar? I like where this team is pointed. Stick with Hornacek, and stay this course. If you've been watching and you can't detect something potentially special on the horizon, you're not paying attention. This group is the closest thing we've seen to those tough '90s Knicks teams that we loved.

How are you paying one more superstar? That team in 2020 is super capped out, and unless you hit it out the park with this upcoming draft pick and Frank becomes a mega star, thats not a ring chasing team.

You're assuming there's no growth in any of the players, it seems. And why couldn't the Knicks get a few good draft picks?

Assume O'Quinn is traded ... what are the Knicks getting back for him? In 3 years will they have a guy who replaces what he offers to the team and the city/fan base?

Celts - Semi Ojeleye and their #1 pick in the bottom of the 1st round

Bucks - let's assume they are "going for it", give me Rashad Vaughn and DJ Wilson

Spurs - Derrick White

this are all young players that have very nice upside and are cost controlled for multiple years (a key variable)

but there are only a few guys who, if they were traded, I wouldn't care. Sessions and Beasley at the top of that list for me.

in what universe does this happen? You're proposing keeping everyone which means paying everyone. So you're not getting anyone via cap space and this team wouldn't be bad enough to pick high enough to get another star.

I get it that this team is a "feel good" story right now and is exceeding expectations, but they should 100% still be in asset gathering mode. If that means trading a guy like KOQ, who's a pending UFA, or nearly anyone else on the roster, you do it.

Sessions
Beasley
Thomas

And Lee makes close to $12 million.

In comment 13700171 Beezer said:

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You're assuming there's no growth in any of the players, it seems. And why couldn't the Knicks get a few good draft picks? Assume O'Quinn is traded ... what are the Knicks getting back for him? In 3 years will they have a guy who replaces what he offers to the team and the city/fan base?

I mean what does he offer thats so irreplaceable? He's a good back up big. He's a FA after this season. You take the asset and roll the dice and hope for the best with the young asset.

As far as championship- I told you what that would take. Look what GS has or what Philly is putting together. It'll take some major jumps from Frank and whoever you draft for the roster to become a championship contender with that lineup you put together.

the Knicks couldn't find another very strong player in the next couple drafts? Maybe there's your superstar.

I know I'm being extremely optimistic. I just really like O'Quinn and his whole storyline/presence.

You're paying Kanter/THJ/KP 70MM alone. You cant afford another superstar.

Trey Burke is somewhat of a gunner, but a willing passer and is defending like his career is on the line (which it is). Also looks like he has worked on his body and explosiveness since I've last seen him.

Isiah Hicks looks like a nice developmental project. Reminds me of a less offensively skilled Morris twin, but plays hard, has an NBA body, good rim protector/rebounder.

Luke Kornet, Nigel Hayes - non-prospects.

Dame Dotson - very impressive shooter, defender, rebounder...really look forward to him getting consistent NBA time once the NYK management realizes Lance Thomas sucks or trades Courtney Lee

In comment 13700193 Sgrcts said:

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You're paying Kanter/THJ/KP 70MM alone. You cant afford another superstar.

At the same time, Lee, Noah, Thomas and Baker make $40.6 million right now.

Staggering that Baker makes $4.3 million ... just this year ... and Thomas is being paid $6.7 million. THIS YEAR!!! Ugh.

If they keep playing well he may end up with executive of the year.

is finally pointed in the right direction for this team, but there is still a lot of heaving lifting to do if they're even going to be a real contender. The cap situation is still not good thanks to Phil (hardly any cap room while KP is still cheap) and there's not nearly enough in the asset pile to trade for a star, should one come available.

In comment 13700204 steve in ky said:

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If they keep playing well he may end up with executive of the year.

I think Ainge's name is already engraved on that.

In comment 13700213 Enzo said:

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In comment 13700204 steve in ky said: Quote: If they keep playing well he may end up with executive of the year. I think Ainge's name is already engraved on that.

For sure, laser etched and already in a UPS box for him.

A lot of the future of this roster is tied to Frank's development. We will have to make the big decisions at the end of next season. By then we should have a better idea if Frank can develop into a star. Then pieces like Mcbuckets and Kanter fit very well around him and KP.

every single knicks thread turns into a debate about money that isn't even available or unavailable yet. At this point who cares. No point worrying at this moment. A lot can and will happen over the next 2 years.

This team isn't building for today it's building for 2-3 years from now. Either they keep guys like Kanter or Oquinn or McBuckets or they don't. They don't have to make any decisions right now. If the Knicks want to go star hunting in 1-2 years they will have to let some of these pending money makers walk in the meantime or make a trade or two. Simple as that.

In comment 13700360 djm said:

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every single knicks thread turns into a debate about money that isn't even available or unavailable yet. At this point who cares. No point worrying at this moment. A lot can and will happen over the next 2 years. This team isn't building for today it's building for 2-3 years from now. Either they keep guys like Kanter or Oquinn or McBuckets or they don't. They don't have to make any decisions right now. If the Knicks want to go star hunting in 1-2 years they will have to let some of these pending money makers walk in the meantime or make a trade or two. Simple as that.

Exactly. Everyone wants to add that mythical "star" to make us a championship contender, but the fact is unless we get competitive they won't come here any way.

In comment 13700360 djm said:

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every single knicks thread turns into a debate about money that isn't even available or unavailable yet. At this point who cares. No point worrying at this moment. A lot can and will happen over the next 2 years. This team isn't building for today it's building for 2-3 years from now. Either they keep guys like Kanter or Oquinn or McBuckets or they don't. They don't have to make any decisions right now. If the Knicks want to go star hunting in 1-2 years they will have to let some of these pending money makers walk in the meantime or make a trade or two. Simple as that.

My point was that I see potential for a solid core developing together. Three years from now the average age of the 8 I showed will STILL be under 27 years old, with the two potentially biggest stars 25 and 22 years old ... again, THREE YEARS FROM NOW! That's a crazy nice place to be.

In comment 13700378 Beezer said:

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In comment 13700360 djm said: Quote: every single knicks thread turns into a debate about money that isn't even available or unavailable yet. At this point who cares. No point worrying at this moment. A lot can and will happen over the next 2 years. This team isn't building for today it's building for 2-3 years from now. Either they keep guys like Kanter or Oquinn or McBuckets or they don't. They don't have to make any decisions right now. If the Knicks want to go star hunting in 1-2 years they will have to let some of these pending money makers walk in the meantime or make a trade or two. Simple as that. My point was that I see potential for a solid core developing together. Three years from now the average age of the 8 I showed will STILL be under 27 years old, with the two potentially biggest stars 25 and 22 years old ... again, THREE YEARS FROM NOW! That's a crazy nice place to be.

solid is nice but "solid" doesn't get you to the finals. You don't want to be locked in and capped out paying huge money for a team that has a 50 win ceiling.

In comment 13700368 Stu11 said:

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In comment 13700360 djm said: Quote: every single knicks thread turns into a debate about money that isn't even available or unavailable yet. At this point who cares. No point worrying at this moment. A lot can and will happen over the next 2 years. This team isn't building for today it's building for 2-3 years from now. Either they keep guys like Kanter or Oquinn or McBuckets or they don't. They don't have to make any decisions right now. If the Knicks want to go star hunting in 1-2 years they will have to let some of these pending money makers walk in the meantime or make a trade or two. Simple as that. Exactly. Everyone wants to add that mythical "star" to make us a championship contender, but the fact is unless we get competitive they won't come here any way.

I tend to agree, at some point that have to start keeping good players and building something around who they do have. A guy like Kanter who was a high draft pick himself, and only 25 himself seems like someone who is perfect fit with KP moving forward.

and if they do, the team acquiring them usually can make some cap room if needed. That is a problem for a later time. The key now is to acquire as many good contracts and assets as possible.

You are assuming there is no progression when in reality, there could be. KP, Ntilikina, THJr, McDermott, Kanter, Hernangomez(although I am def down on him), whoever we draft this next draft are all young players with room to grow. I'm ok keeping this core together and trying to build around them.

Just let it play out.

In comment 13700471 Keith said:

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You are assuming there is no progression when in reality, there could be. KP, Ntilikina, THJr, McDermott, Kanter, Hernangomez(although I am def down on him), whoever we draft this next draft are all young players with room to grow. I'm ok keeping this core together and trying to build around them. Just let it play out.

Yeah, it's a good idea to let this play out a bit. Mills made a comment a few weeks ago about these players not having much stability lately, and they (Mills/Perry) are trying to create some going forward. I don't expect massive roster turnover year after year.

An added benefit of compiling some good young pieces is that it puts you in good position if/when a star player goes on the trading block. As we know, teams never get equal value when trading a star, but they still need enough good young talent to make it palatable.

as the megastar, could bring this franchise a title if they wisely build around him.

This is not until the post-LeBron/Golden State era but still could happen.

There is still growth with KP, strength/physicality specifically.

Frank, Hardaway, Kanter, McD...these guys can all grow up together and with the right moves in the future their chances are right up there with Philly, Boston and some of the other up and coming young teams.

still figures to be pretty significant turnover in the off-season. Jack, Sessions, Beasley, KOQ, McDermott (RFA), Kanter (Option) are all FA and I doubt they are especially tied to keeping Baker, Thomas, Noah or Lee. They also have 3 picks they will have to roster (their 1st, Bulls 2nd and their own or LAC's 2nd). I could see at least 1/3 of the roster being different next season.

to miss the entire season with back surgery.

have some turnover year to year. I'm not worried about the spare parts like Jack, Beasley, Sessions, etc., but there will be tough decisions regarding the logjam of bigs and the max amount you'd be willing to match on McBuckets.

next years team should consist of KP, Hardaway, Kanter, Ntilikina, Lance Thomas(unfortunately), McDermott, Noah, Dotson and possibly Lee, Willy and KOQ. That's a solid core to bring back.

They can use their 2nd rounders on foreign players who are a year or two away. I don't think there will be that much turnover to be honest.

keep Doug if his contract were reasonable, I'd shop Lee hard. Nothing against Lee but he's 33 next season and I believe Dotson can replace him on the cheap.

I like Mikal Bridges from Nova as a sleeper. I wonder if the Knicks would draft a PG if a guy they loved were there.

Bol Bol committed to Oregon, people thought he might end up a package deal with Zion Williamson

Knick
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In comment 13700172 Pep22 said:

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Celts - Semi Ojeleye and their #1 pick in the bottom of the 1st round Bucks - let's assume they are "going for it", give me Rashad Vaughn and DJ Wilson Spurs - Derrick White this are all young players that have very nice upside and are cost controlled for multiple years (a key variable)

I like O'Quinn and he's a had a solid year, but you aren't getting that from the Celtics.

is team controlled for 4 years. He alone for KOQ is a win (assuming the plan isn't to sign KOQ). I doubt the Celtics would even do that much. Wouldn't have my mind blown to see the Bucks give up Vaughn but Vaughn AND Wilson? No chance. Vaughn is still only 21 and playing well in limited minutes and Wilson just went 17th overall this past season and has 4 years of control. I'd do KOQ for Wilson straight up, doubt the Bucks would.

are a good place to look for a future Knick. I do think they'd take a penetrating point guard if they could get their hands on one - they need SOMEONE who can really break down a defense. It's no knock on Frank, but that's obviously not his game.

Does he replace Supranowitz? For normal teams the PR guy is probably relatively unknown...but at MSG Supranowitz has been caught up in some of the media policy nonsense over the years and has been an antagonist of Isola since the 90s. Oh, and he sits behind the bench every night, lol. So I wonder if he's been canned.
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In comment 13700575 bceagle05 said:

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are a good place to look for a future Knick. I do think they'd take a penetrating point guard if they could get their hands on one - they need SOMEONE who can really break down a defense. It's no knock on Frank, but that's obviously not his game.

Just be clear I wasn't asking about a PG as a swipe at Frank, rather wondering if the right guy fell to their pick if they might take more of a pure facilitator at the 1.

In comment 13700528 DanMetroMan said:

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keep Doug if his contract were reasonable

I think at a minimum he's getting the full MLE...so I see that as a starting point. And who knows, he may only be interested in a short term deal so he can go back into the market in 1-2 years if nobody is willing to offer him significant money.

that i hate all the money talk in every sport. Truly. I hate it. Yes there's a cap and in some cases contracts can and will make or break a franchise but I think at times the talk is way too overstated.

The fact that every single Knicks thread someone is going to have someone mention the contract of Thomas or what's his name...who cares.

Just my take. I think the player or coach financials being front and center in pro sports have done a lot of damage to the game or at the very least completely corrupted the narrative. And it's ruined any objectivity. Again, I get the importance of valuable contracts vs bad ones. I just hate that every single time someone brings up Tim Hardaway JR someone else mentions the money. In baseball it's even worse because there really isn't any real cap to speak of. Whatever, it's what fans like to talk about now but I am here to say it sucks. And I will say it again and again.

In comment 13700602 Enzo said:

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In comment 13700528 DanMetroMan said: Quote: keep Doug if his contract were reasonable I think at a minimum he's getting the full MLE...so I see that as a starting point. And who knows, he may only be interested in a short term deal so he can go back into the market in 1-2 years if nobody is willing to offer him significant money.

Obviously his value will be impacted by how he looks for the remainder of the season. I like him a lot but not so much I'm gambling on massive improvement going forward. I like him enough that he's on my "Very open to keeping him if he continues to look like this" whereas previously he felt like a pure rental. Lance Thomas on the other hand could retire tomorrow and I'd be quite happy.

In comment 13700614 djm said:

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that i hate all the money talk in every sport. Truly. I hate it. Yes there's a cap and in some cases contracts can and will make or break a franchise but I think at times the talk is way too overstated. The fact that every single Knicks thread someone is going to have someone mention the contract of Thomas or what's his name...who cares. Just my take. I think the player or coach financials being front and center in pro sports have done a lot of damage to the game or at the very least completely corrupted the narrative. And it's ruined any objectivity. Again, I get the importance of valuable contracts vs bad ones. I just hate that every single time someone brings up Tim Hardaway JR someone else mentions the money. In baseball it's even worse because there really isn't any real cap to speak of. Whatever, it's what fans like to talk about now but I am here to say it sucks. And I will say it again and again.

All due respect but that doesn't really make a ton of sense. The NBA's salary cap is essentially a puzzle, you need to make pieces (money) fit. So you can't just blindly go "ya know what? I'd pay to keep Kanter, Dougie, keep Lee, keep KOQ and I'll worry about the rest later". The "rest" is remaining cap room, where does the team improve without it? The current roster has some decent pieces but they also have a 0.0% chance of ever competing for a title without significant additions (at minimum one very good player). It's not as if this group can surprise and win a title "as is" or "some additions around the edges". No, they need a real influx so you need that cap room.

I agree, the cap always has to be a part of the conversation. At this point, there is so much unknown to really speak in absolutes. What if this team continues to improve and somehow gets in at the 4 seed and wins a round? Are you breaking it up to keep flexibility? I'd think the opposite. This is a young group with room to improve. I might want to keep most of the pieces together. Salary cap space isn't as important as good young players on good deals.

On the flip side, if things turn south and we are sitting out of the playoff picture by teh deadline, it might behoove us gather assets.

Of course you wont agree. You always talk contracts. Look I get it, and I said twice that I get the dynamic. I just think its overstated by far too many. I hate when fans bitch about player contracts. That's just how I feel. And even with the cap dynamic there are times where a thread that goes on for 14 pages centering on the cap is just ridiculous. Talk about losing the innocence of the sport.

In my view Pro sports haven't been corrupted by money, they have been corrupted by the public's knowledge of that money.

I never said "you know what fuck it pay him"

Vortex here we come.

where I disagree is when you say 0%. I know you do that often for effect, but it's not reality. KP has the potential to be a mega star that you can build around. Did the Mavericks have a team of studs in 2011 when they won? Lots to be determined still on that front. Lets see how it unfolds.