NFT: Knicks Thread 11/21

In comment 13700632 djm said:

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Of course you wont agree. You always talk contracts. Look I get it, and I said twice that I get the dynamic. I just think its overstated by far too many. I hate when fans bitch about player contracts. That's just how I feel. And even with the cap dynamic there are times where a thread that goes on for 14 pages centering on the cap is just ridiculous. Talk about losing the innocence of the sport. In my view Pro sports haven't been corrupted by money, they have been corrupted by the public's knowledge of that money.

I get your point, but there isn't a sport where it matters as much as the NBA. In football, it means little as there are so many ways to move things around to clear space and so many ways to get out from contracts. Baseball its meaningless other than for fans and in teh NBA its vital to the discussion. It's just reality with the NBA.

I get the cap dynamics. Trust me I do. I just think there is too much financial crap brought up in sports talk in general. At times it's warranted. At times it's not really relevant or necessary. That's all.

In comment 13700632 djm said:

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Of course you wont agree. You always talk contracts. Look I get it, and I said twice that I get the dynamic. I just think its overstated by far too many. I hate when fans bitch about player contracts. That's just how I feel. And even with the cap dynamic there are times where a thread that goes on for 14 pages centering on the cap is just ridiculous. Talk about losing the innocence of the sport. In my view Pro sports haven't been corrupted by money, they have been corrupted by the public's knowledge of that money.

You vehemently told I was wrong about the Noah contract on nearly a daily basis. You insisted i was wrong and a bitter fan for not being happy about the deal. You don't think his contract being off the books would = a better Knicks team? Contracts are a major part of the NBA and building a team whether you like it or not. I don't care how much Joakim Noah makes, I care how much money Joakim Noah takes up of the Knicks salary cap. If you told me Dolan could pay Noah 100 million to go away and have zero cap influence going forward I'd jump for joy. I don't give 2 shits how much players make, I care how much they impact the remainder of the team being good and yes, in my case as a Mets fan mediocre player Y making far too much money directly impacts how good the team is because of what is essentially a self-enforced "salary cap". The % of people who care how much each player make in terms of "being overpaid" on BBI is extremely low (if they exist at all).

The NBA is all about the cap. It along with the NHL is the most cap driven sport being played.

But I do feel aggrieved when I see Tim Hardaway making $71 million to be the same lump of mediocrity he's always been.

Don't always love the shot selection, but I've been happy with him overall. Plays really hard, great finisher on the break, can create offense and take the ball to the rim when we need it.

I never flat out said anyone was wrong for being skeptical about the Noah move I said some of you were freaking out when it might not be a terrible deal. I essentially said to give it time. I defended the move sort of but I was never in love with it. I'd show you the archived convo I had with a coworker where I said that he's a huge age and injury risk and the Knicks would probably be better off without Noah and his contract.

I defended it here because you guys went ape shit. Vortex. It's happening.

In comment 13700636 Keith said:

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where I disagree is when you say 0%. I know you do that often for effect, but it's not reality. KP has the potential to be a mega star that you can build around. Did the Mavericks have a team of studs in 2011 when they won? Lots to be determined still on that front. Lets see how it unfolds.

Keeping ALL of these guys would essentially mean adding NOBODY of note to the roster so yeah close to 0% chance. O'Quinn for example will likely double his salary, Dougie will get likely 4 times his current salary. If the Knicks opted to resign all of their current "guys people like" then the odds of them ever winning a title (barring draft luck) are extremely, extremely low. People always cite the Mavs, how many times in the last 30 years has a team like the Mavs won a title? Once and that team still had future 1st ballot HOFer Dirk, Chandler with a .218 WS/48 and 6 players with a WS/48 over .116. The current Knicks have 3 suck players (Kanter, Porzingis, KOQ)

almost definitely our 2nd best player on a team that's been the most fun team to watch in a LONG time. And he's still got room to grow. If he tones down on some of the rushed 3 pointers and takes the ball to the hole more he can be a very good player....and in today's NBA dollars he's not really overpaid by much.

In comment 13700632 djm said:

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Of course you wont agree. You always talk contracts. Look I get it, and I said twice that I get the dynamic. I just think its overstated by far too many. I hate when fans bitch about player contracts. That's just how I feel. And even with the cap dynamic there are times where a thread that goes on for 14 pages centering on the cap is just ridiculous. Talk about losing the innocence of the sport. In my view Pro sports haven't been corrupted by money, they have been corrupted by the public's knowledge of that money.

well at least we know why you were always defending Phil's moves. Sorry if some of us want to have informed discussions based on facts and reality. If you want to be willfully ignorant, have at it...but in the NBA the CBA has more of an impact on how a roster is built than any other sport. Thinking other fans are "overstating" its importance is ridiculous.

Two more years of Noah's annoying contract won't sink this franchise to unrecoverable depths. It sucks but whatever, move on. Knicks will recover.

not suck

but the truth is the Knicks have been more reckless in their spending than any franchise in sports over the past 15 years. If Steve Mills hasn't learned hard lessons from the past, we're still in big trouble going forward.

We need to do a better job of finding cheap labor. Trading Lee and letting Dotson handle the back-up SG duties next year, for example, would be a nice step in the right direction.

Old school bigs who do the "dirty work" are typically employed as mercenaries on one-year deals (think Andrew Bogut) or found in the draft. We gave a four-year deal to Robin Lopez, than traded him and gave a more expensive four-year deal to Noah, and now may stretch Noah and give another big deal to Kanter. All this while the league keeps getting smaller. We need to change that approach, too.

Thx sunshine. Phil gave us KP. Best knick since Ewing. Phil the savior. Say it with me.

Fuck off.

In comment 13700650 Greg from LI said:

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But I do feel aggrieved when I see Tim Hardaway making $71 million to be the same lump of mediocrity he's always been.

I didn't like the Hardaway contract then, I still don't like it now, but he's been good so far.

In comment 13700663 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 13700636 Keith said: Quote: where I disagree is when you say 0%. I know you do that often for effect, but it's not reality. KP has the potential to be a mega star that you can build around. Did the Mavericks have a team of studs in 2011 when they won? Lots to be determined still on that front. Lets see how it unfolds. Keeping ALL of these guys would essentially mean adding NOBODY of note to the roster so yeah close to 0% chance. O'Quinn for example will likely double his salary, Dougie will get likely 4 times his current salary. If the Knicks opted to resign all of their current "guys people like" then the odds of them ever winning a title (barring draft luck) are extremely, extremely low. People always cite the Mavs, how many times in the last 30 years has a team like the Mavs won a title? Once and that team still had future 1st ballot HOFer Dirk, Chandler with a .218 WS/48 and 6 players with a WS/48 over .116. The current Knicks have 3 suck players (Kanter, Porzingis, KOQ)

I have NEVER cited the Mavs before this. It's reality. The Mavs won ONE time, but they were a top western team for a decade. You wouldn't sign up for that? You just named 2 guys that are so young and have so much room to grow. They also have other young players that can improve. Yep, need some draft luck, but it's not that crazy to think we can find a diamond in the rough somewhere and find a way to add some ancillary talent.

In comment 13700667 djm said:

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Two more years of Noah's annoying contract won't sink this franchise to unrecoverable depths. It sucks but whatever, move on. Knicks will recover.

Again, no disrespect intended but this is where your view and most people's views diverge. Imagine what this team looks like right now with a "legit" 18 million dollar player replacing Noah? Or 2 9 million dollar players? His contract absolutely impacts what the Knicks look like now and going forward.

KP will get paid, and deservedly so.
Frank, Willy and Dotson are all here on the cheap for a few years (barring a trade).
Hardaway is an overpay, but not a crippling one.
We can match any reasonable deals on McDermott.
We have all our picks going forward.

If a strong foundation emerges from that cluster over the next year, we'll be in good shape.

In comment 13700677 Keith said:

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In comment 13700663 DanMetroMan said: Quote: In comment 13700636 Keith said: Quote: where I disagree is when you say 0%. I know you do that often for effect, but it's not reality. KP has the potential to be a mega star that you can build around. Did the Mavericks have a team of studs in 2011 when they won? Lots to be determined still on that front. Lets see how it unfolds. Keeping ALL of these guys would essentially mean adding NOBODY of note to the roster so yeah close to 0% chance. O'Quinn for example will likely double his salary, Dougie will get likely 4 times his current salary. If the Knicks opted to resign all of their current "guys people like" then the odds of them ever winning a title (barring draft luck) are extremely, extremely low. People always cite the Mavs, how many times in the last 30 years has a team like the Mavs won a title? Once and that team still had future 1st ballot HOFer Dirk, Chandler with a .218 WS/48 and 6 players with a WS/48 over .116. The current Knicks have 3 suck players (Kanter, Porzingis, KOQ) I have NEVER cited the Mavs before this. It's reality. The Mavs won ONE time, but they were a top western team for a decade. You wouldn't sign up for that? You just named 2 guys that are so young and have so much room to grow. They also have other young players that can improve. Yep, need some draft luck, but it's not that crazy to think we can find a diamond in the rough somewhere and find a way to add some ancillary talent.

To be clear I said "people" always cite the Mavs (just as they cite the Pistons 2004). I don't mean to shit on Frank at all but I'll go on record saying I'd be very surprised if he's ever a "very good" offensive player. Defensively he could be special but the Knicks are going to need to add some legit talent to this roster that doesn't currently exist. I also believe counting Kanter/Willy is almost akin to doubling up as I don't see any possibility those 2 ever play together and certainly hard to see a scenario where KP/KOQ/Kanter/Willy are all significantly players on the same team.

offensive player, not just scorer. He's not a bad ball handler, despite everyone parroting that narrative. He's got good vision and the desire to share the rock. That's a great start. He has no confidence, but his shot looks good fundamentally. I think he will learn to drive and finish more and use his length to make up for the lack of quickness and explosiveness. He will be a special defensive player, so if he can improve on offense, he will be a key player.

absolutely has a negative impact on the roster. I'm wrong ALL the time but I distinctly remember some on here arguing that Noah's deal was better than Rudy Gobert's.... replace Noah with actual good players making 18 million and the Knicks roster would look so much better. "Who cares about money?" is akin to having your head in the clouds.

In comment 13700672 djm said:

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Thx sunshine. Phil gave us KP. Best knick since Ewing. Phil the savior. Say it with me. Fuck off.

we really need to keep a running list of just how many times you've been dead wrong on a Knick trade or free agent signing. It's remarkable how often it happens. You'd think you might get one right once in a while just by accident.

I never mentioned Noah. My posts have nothing to do with his contract.

Simply put I don't like the majority of pro sports talk centers on MONEY. You guys are fucking relentless. Don't fucking twist words (enzo) I have been watching the NBA and it's glorious cap for 35 years. I get it. I just don't like how pro sport debates or discussions always center on the salaries. In a perfect world it wouldn't exist in that same fashion. Fuck man...I say one thing and we go to Noah's contract debate.

In comment 13700690 DanMetroMan said:

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absolutely has a negative impact on the roster. I'm wrong ALL the time but I distinctly remember some on here arguing that Noah's deal was better than Rudy Gobert's.... replace Noah with actual good players making 18 million and the Knicks roster would look so much better. "Who cares about money?" is akin to having your head in the clouds.

the same folks saying that were the same ones saying "first rounders don't matter" right after the Bargs trade.

just think you are putting two premises together and equating the two as equal. MOST fans don't care what players make. We know they "all" make a ton. But many of us DO care what they make in relation to the salary cap. As I said if they could pay Joakim Noah and Ron Baker double their current owed money but they simply disappeared from the cap I think 99% of fans would be more than happy to see them get paid.

1 year deal-Excellent deal
2 year deal-Good deal
3 year deal-pushing it and too much risk
4 year deal-a big problem

I was definitely on board for seeing what Noah had, but it had to be a short term deal and we are now seeing why. It's a devastating contract for the Knicks right now. Of course we probably wouldn't have that space if we didn't sign Noah, we would have just spent it on someone else.

In comment 13700691 Enzo said:

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In comment 13700672 djm said: Quote: Thx sunshine. Phil gave us KP. Best knick since Ewing. Phil the savior. Say it with me. Fuck off. we really need to keep a running list of just how many times you've been dead wrong on a Knick trade or free agent signing. It's remarkable how often it happens. You'd think you might get one right once in a while just by accident.

Dude you really took this to another level. Good job.

I know I was right about KP. Check the archives.

I don't keep score on internet message board debates. I know I am a pretty smart person overall, sports or in general. I get some wrong. Some right.

Thanks for taking this to another place. Kindly ignore me.

that i basically said I just wish pro sports in general had less of a financial stigma attached to it and this place goes fucking bat shit. I guess I touched a nerve? Wasn't my intentions believe me...

In comment 13700698 Keith said:

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1 year deal-Excellent deal 2 year deal-Good deal 3 year deal-pushing it and too much risk 4 year deal-a big problem I was definitely on board for seeing what Noah had, but it had to be a short term deal and we are now seeing why. It's a devastating contract for the Knicks right now. Of course we probably wouldn't have that space if we didn't sign Noah, we would have just spent it on someone else.

Yup (while I didn't particularly want Noah because of his injury stuff). 1-2 years would have been fine (though if people recall the rumor was the Wizards were going to offer him 4 years and "max" money and people were going nuts with laughter, people found the idea preposterous). The Noah deal is and always will be because Phil thought he was smarter than the room, nothing less nothing more. 1-2 years "why not? we stink, lets change the culture" whatever. 4 years was wild.

I think his point is that many fans seemingly enjoy discussing contracts and future seasons salaries, future possible players and their possible salaries, and how that all fits together more than they do the actual games they are watching and game play that is occurring on the court.

Maybe it's a generational thing, kind of how so many younger baseball fans often seem to prefer to discuss sabermetrics more than some of the older fans do.

I'm not saying either is wrong and any fan should be able to enjoy watching/following his teams however he most enjoys. But clearly some people enjoy analyzing salaries more where other fans prefer to just talk more about the play occurring on the court.

Personally I don't mind discussing salaries when it matters and the team is actually making decisions and moves, but I kind of agree that when the season is happening I am more caught up in the games and who is doing what. Then at whatever point when a move is being made I am interested in how it shapes the team. Constant evaluating the exact same thing over and over for each game gets a little redundant for me.

should be sent to the G-League. There isn't much to be gained with him not playing at all.

In comment 13700712 steve in ky said:

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I think his point is that many fans seemingly enjoy discussing contracts and future seasons salaries, future possible players and their possible salaries, and how that all fits together more than they do the actual games they are watching and game play that is occurring on the court. Maybe it's a generational thing, kind of how so many younger baseball fans often seem to prefer to discuss sabermetrics more than some of the older fans do. I'm not saying either is wrong and any fan should be able to enjoy watching/following his teams however he most enjoys. But clearly some people enjoy analyzing salaries more where other fans prefer to just talk more about the play occurring on the court. Personally I don't mind discussing salaries when it matters and the team is actually making decisions and moves, but I kind of agree that when the season is happening I am more caught up in the games and who is doing what. Then at whatever point when a move is being made I am interested in how it shapes the team. Constant evaluating the exact same thing over and over for each game gets a little redundant for me.

I can only speak for myself, but trust me, I wish I didn't have things like "base year compensation" and "traded player exception" floating around in my head. The NBA CBA is the most unnecessarily complicated thing in all of sports. But it's impossible to have an informed discussion about the NBA without a basic understanding of cap rules and contracts.

We are in the midst of an exciting little run with a light at the end of the tunnel. We should just enjoy it, not worry about next year and the cap and all the other stuff. So much still needs to be decided before we know the best direction to go.

I'm guilty of it too. When we traded Melo, I was all about trading Kanter immediately, but I am so glad we didn't. He can potentially be a building block for this team.

In comment 13700650 Greg from LI said:

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But I do feel aggrieved when I see Tim Hardaway making $71 million to be the same lump of mediocrity he's always been.

Have you missed the last 10+ games?

Also, relatively speaking, 4y/$71mm is not a huge contract.

In comment 13700716 DanMetroMan said:

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should be sent to the G-League. There isn't much to be gained with him not playing at all.

I agree with this, but maybe they feel he's better off practicing against guys like Kanter and Noah? They've had a ton of home games, so maybe there's been more practices than usual.

Dotson during his 3 games there 17 and 8, 2 assists, 1 steal 46% from the field, 53% from 3 (I really wish they could find some PT for Dotson, while it's impossible to argue Willy over Kanter right now I do think some of Lee's minutes should go to Dotson)

Hayes 17 and 7, 1 steal 53% from the field 48% from 3 (didn't look like an NBA athlete to me during the summer but has played well)

Kornet 14 and 6, 42% from the field, 36% from 3

Burke 23 and 6 with 2 steals, 4 boards 49% from the field, 39% from 3. Burke just needs to be patient, odds are Jack doesn't last all season and Burke presumably is "next" in the PG pecking order unless they go with Baker...

In comment 13700723 Enzo said:

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In comment 13700716 DanMetroMan said: Quote: should be sent to the G-League. There isn't much to be gained with him not playing at all. I agree with this, but maybe they feel he's better off practicing against guys like Kanter and Noah? They've had a ton of home games, so maybe there's been more practices than usual.

I just think at some point playing against actual competition has value. It's not as if he can't be around the team, they have shuttled guys before. Hard to imagine he'd even have the cardio to go 20-25 per night if he's not playing in games soon.

In comment 13700733 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 13700723 Enzo said: Quote: In comment 13700716 DanMetroMan said: Quote: should be sent to the G-League. There isn't much to be gained with him not playing at all. I agree with this, but maybe they feel he's better off practicing against guys like Kanter and Noah? They've had a ton of home games, so maybe there's been more practices than usual. I just think at some point playing against actual competition has value. It's not as if he can't be around the team, they have shuttled guys before. Hard to imagine he'd even have the cardio to go 20-25 per night if he's not playing in games soon.

if they ever get around to activating Noah, then they almost need to send Wily there. Is there somewhere lower than the G-League where they can send Baker?

In comment 13700679 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 13700667 djm said: Quote: Two more years of Noah's annoying contract won't sink this franchise to unrecoverable depths. It sucks but whatever, move on. Knicks will recover. Again, no disrespect intended but this is where your view and most people's views diverge. Imagine what this team looks like right now with a "legit" 18 million dollar player replacing Noah? Or 2 9 million dollar players? His contract absolutely impacts what the Knicks look like now and going forward.

Never said his contract didn't impact things. It sucks. I've said that.

Forget it. You guys took my comments as if I was shitting all over salary cap talk. I don't necessarily love "cap talk" but I get it. The cap dynamic is the very fabric of successful NBA play.

I should have prefaced my comments with one key point: I HATE SALARY CAPS.

That's all. You guys are great. I learn more from most of you on here than I care to admit. Even you enzo.

is that an olive branch you just extended or a knife that looks camaflouged to look like an olive branch?

almost 18 4 and 4 on 45 percent shooting with better defense is pretty good...

take away the first three games and he is at 20 ppg

In comment 13700741 nygiants16 said:

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almost 18 4 and 4 on 45 percent shooting with better defense is pretty good... take away the first three games and he is at 20 ppg

He's going to be polarizing. He's a scorer who is an averageish defender and at times can have questionable shot selection. He's been hot and cold at times but overall he's been good. That said he was paid what he was paid with the idea last year was the beginning of a breakout not "all he is". If he "only" plays this well then his contract is fine, but the hope is there is more there, an additional level. His 3point % should rise but (and I'm not looking to knock him) but he does take really really maddening 3's at times for a guy who isn't a deadeye long range shooter.

for context he's averaging 8.3 3pt FGA per 36 despite only shooting 31% from 3, KP is averaging 5.5 (despite hitting 40%).

than I had remembered him being.

That ability has helped them already this season in games where they their shooting was off and they desperately needed a basket or two. And while he can sometimes force it he has had the knack for hitting some important 3's

In comment 13700740 Keith said:

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is that an olive branch you just extended or a knife that looks camaflouged to look like an olive branch?

I hate going to bed angry. Olive branch, although honestly I didn't start this he brought it to another level. Thing is questioning my intelligence or sports smarts doesn't threaten me. I know I'm brilliant.

there are times he takes a 3 and i am loke what are you doing, especially when he can get to the rim at will...

It's not that fans enjoy discussing money, they enjoy discussing roster construction. Part of that is fitting salaries under the cap. I got in arguments last year with fans saying Noah's contract didn't matter because the Knicks were rebuilding and wouldn't be in the FA market. I don't begrudge players getting paid and think most of them deserve every dollar, but when a guy like Noah is taking up 20% of the salary cap for the next 3 years and is unplayable, it effects your team. It's an opportunity cost. It could easily be the difference in having the luxury to keep Mcdermott, KOQ etc.

My issue with the Knicks is that they never hold their ground and agree to "team friendly" deals. Did Ron Baker need a player option ( let alone any guaranteed money)? Lance Thomas 4 years guaranteed? Even Hardaway getting a player option or trying to sign him for 60 mill instead of 72. Every dollar counts in the NBA, just look at Celtics this offseason.

But for the people saying Hardaway has been mediocre or disappointing? You must not be watching the games. I wasn't a fan of the contract or the player, but I've been wrong so far. He's been very good for the Knicks and a big reason why they are winning games. And he's getting paid as the 16th highest SG in the NBA and providing good value for that.

in all you can see the makings of a really solid/nice piece of a good team. He needs to continue developing and improve his decision making, drive more than shoot so many 3's and continue to work defensively. At times he actually reminds me of one of my favorite Knicks ever... John Starks.

In comment 13700759 nygiants16 said:

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there are times he takes a 3 and i am loke what are you doing, especially when he can get to the rim at will...

Shot selection and defensive focus definitely need improvement. A guy that athletic shouldn't be getting beat backdoor and should at least be an average defender. But those things can be improved. It's not asking Kidd Gilchrist to become a 20point scorer or some other unrealistic improvement/ projection.

In comment 13700756 djm said:

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In comment 13700740 Keith said: Quote: is that an olive branch you just extended or a knife that looks camaflouged to look like an olive branch? I hate going to bed angry. Olive branch, although honestly I didn't start this he brought it to another level.

what level is that? The level where reasonable and informed discussions take place?