due to the fact martin played tackle in college and everyone assumed he would be a great guard, which he is. Nelson is a great guard and college and based on what you see on game day the guy is a beast, the hardest part to determine is what you can't see on tape
gets a lot of the attention, but that left side for ND goes because of Nelson. A LOT of NDs big runs are right behind Nelson. I really like Mcglinchey too but, he has some real trouble with speed rushers.
He and McGlinchey looked awful against Miami. They were overwhelmed. Maybe it was a bad game... Post-season workouts will be critical to re-establish some credibility...
for an OG in the top 5, if we're picking in there.
I know you're just relaying the typical front office mindset, and I have little doubt that Reese thinks this way, but we have got to get away from this approach. I bet a lot of teams in the top 10 from 2014 wish they had Zach Martin instead of what they got.
The bargain shopping at certain positions, thinking they're not worthy of premium dollars, has not worked
As interior offensive linemen continue to get recordbreaking contracts, where teams will start drafting interior lineman higher to make up for the fact that it's becoming harder and harder to find quality.
NYG places the value elsewhere, and one thing we absolutely don't want to see is a philosophy over-correction either. Take the BPA, if he's an OG so be it. My money would be on QB, pass rusher, or best defensive player grading out higher than OG.
McGlinchy not so much. I like Nelson a ton. He is about as pro ready to start day 1 as any player in the 2018 draft. If we go defense I would say Chubb is the guy I want. He is an absolute stud. We need more pressure on the QB so I would depending on where we pick it will go in this order;
QB, DE, RB, DB, OL
I personally think that Nelson is the way to go. He would make our offense more nasty and powerful.
I happen to Agree, but I just don't see a defensive player that jumps out at me at the moment.
Fitzpatrick might compliment Collins nicely. GREAT ball skills but he isn't much of a tackler. Those CF types are tough to project. I think he's more of a corner in the NFL.
Chubb has the size we know the NYG brass covet and is an interesting two way DE. Not as quick twitchy as you'd like from a DE who's expected to go this high. Certainly doesn't have the explosion of Garrett.
Some interesting CB prospects, but none that I'd call blue chippers. I also don't see the spending another first rounder on a CB in this draft.
He’s good no question about it. But the huge holes on the right side of the line often come from a doubleteam with Frederick. It helps to have an all Pro center next to you. As an aside, was it the year before last that people here thought that Richburg was snubbed because he was better? Now they say he’s no good.
From what little I saw, Nelson looks like a player, I would find it hard to draft an OG with a top 10 pick unless you think he’s a Larry Allen clone. The Skins took Scherf with the 5th pick a few years ago and while he’s good,he’s not that good. The player I’m curious about is McClinchy on ND but I don’t see him as super special but I don’t watch much college
RE: RE: I'd wager we'll wind up going QB or defense Â
I happen to Agree, but I just don't see a defensive player that jumps out at me at the moment.
Fitzpatrick might compliment Collins nicely. GREAT ball skills but he isn't much of a tackler. Those CF types are tough to project. I think he's more of a corner in the NFL.
Chubb has the size we know the NYG brass covet and is an interesting two way DE. Not as quick twitchy as you'd like from a DE who's expected to go this high. Certainly doesn't have the explosion of Garrett.
Some interesting CB prospects, but none that I'd call blue chippers. I also don't see the spending another first rounder on a CB in this draft.
Look for Key to rise, agree it might be too high for a DB, also figure there will be an offensive weapon or two that rises they'll like. If we're picking top 2 it's likely all moot.
NYG places the value elsewhere, and one thing we absolutely don't want to see is a philosophy over-correction either. Take the BPA, if he's an OG so be it. My money would be on QB, pass rusher, or best defensive player grading out higher than OG.
Agreed. That will probably be the approach.
As I've said, the whole "Rosen or Darnold" debate may well be irrelevant. Rosen is likely going #1, and Darnold may stay in school. And if Darnold comes out, he could easily go #2. What if the Giants are picking fifth or sixth? The cost to move up for either of those players would be astronomical in terms of future draft picks.
Rosen, Darnold, and Barkley might well be gone by the time the Giants pick. That leaves Chubb, Nelson, and Allen. The Giants would probably pick Chubb. He or Nelson would be fine, but I'd rather trade down. Part of the reason I want Reese gone is that he has never traded down in any round. He has too much confidence in his picks, and doesn't understand that extra picks provide needed depth.
NYG places the value elsewhere, and one thing we absolutely don't want to see is a philosophy over-correction either. Take the BPA, if he's an OG so be it. My money would be on QB, pass rusher, or best defensive player grading out higher than OG.
Agreed. That will probably be the approach.
As I've said, the whole "Rosen or Darnold" debate may well be irrelevant. Rosen is likely going #1, and Darnold may stay in school. And if Darnold comes out, he could easily go #2. What if the Giants are picking fifth or sixth? The cost to move up for either of those players would be astronomical in terms of future draft picks.
Rosen, Darnold, and Barkley might well be gone by the time the Giants pick. That leaves Chubb, Nelson, and Allen. The Giants would probably pick Chubb. He or Nelson would be fine, but I'd rather trade down. Part of the reason I want Reese gone is that he has never traded down in any round. He has too much confidence in his picks, and doesn't understand that extra picks provide needed depth.
Definitely a tricky looking crop to be picking near the top! Plenty of time before April to see if key positions rise, I'm looking at the DEs and LTs along with the QBs. Giants need a cornerstone talent at a key position from this rare opportunity.
And I am a happy man. I feel like any one of these pieces puts that respective side of the ball back on track.
A road grading, elite guard makes this offensive line very solid provided we continue to see progression from Flowers/Wheeler/Jones.
A pass rushing specialist in Chubb finally provides this defense with what it truly needs. A 3rd DE that can rush the passer.
Barkley gives this offense something it has been missing since Tiki. An all-purpose back that other teams will have to account for. It also makes the offense less predictable being that he can be a 3-down back.
NYG places the value elsewhere, and one thing we absolutely don't want to see is a philosophy over-correction either. Take the BPA, if he's an OG so be it. My money would be on QB, pass rusher, or best defensive player grading out higher than OG.
Few OGs are Larry Allen or remotely close in impact.
Without question, NYG needs to invest more in the interior OL, but it doesn't figure to be a top 10 choice. Left tackle could be a different story, but I don't see them budging off Flowers yet.
is a great player, but I don't think any GM in football would take him over a guy like Chubb or Derwin James, two of the better defensive prospects in the draft.
Few OGs are Larry Allen or remotely close in impact.
Without question, NYG needs to invest more in the interior OL, but it doesn't figure to be a top 10 choice. Left tackle could be a different story, but I don't see them budging off Flowers yet.
You draft players, not positions. If it’s “universal,” then no wonder the usual suspects are picking in the top 10 every year.
RE: RE: Those positions hold more value than an OG Â
Few OGs are Larry Allen or remotely close in impact.
Without question, NYG needs to invest more in the interior OL, but it doesn't figure to be a top 10 choice. Left tackle could be a different story, but I don't see them budging off Flowers yet.
Only casual football fans devalue the Guard position in today's NFL.
Strong Guard play is PARAMOUNT to winning in today's NFL.
No it is not.
RE: RE: I'd wager we'll wind up going QB or defense Â
I happen to Agree, but I just don't see a defensive player that jumps out at me at the moment.
Fitzpatrick might compliment Collins nicely. GREAT ball skills but he isn't much of a tackler. Those CF types are tough to project. I think he's more of a corner in the NFL.
Chubb has the size we know the NYG brass covet and is an interesting two way DE. Not as quick twitchy as you'd like from a DE who's expected to go this high. Certainly doesn't have the explosion of Garrett.
Some interesting CB prospects, but none that I'd call blue chippers. I also don't see the spending another first rounder on a CB in this draft.
Derwin James. Key. The LB Oko from Oklahoma whose full name im not even going to attempt.
Getting Bradley Chubb at the start of his career is awfully tempting. Blue Chip 43 Defensive End. You only get a shot at those at the top of the draft.
RE: RE: Those positions hold more value than an OG Â
Few OGs are Larry Allen or remotely close in impact.
Without question, NYG needs to invest more in the interior OL, but it doesn't figure to be a top 10 choice. Left tackle could be a different story, but I don't see them budging off Flowers yet.
You draft players, not positions. If it’s “universal,” then no wonder the usual suspects are picking in the top 10 every year.
You draft players but some positions simply grade out higher than others based on scarcity of resources and importance to the actual game of football.
Pass rushers, CBs, WRs, QBs, LTs are more valuable Â
He said that by the time the grading is done on him, he's going to have one of the best grades for a guard that he's given out in his 35 years of doing the draft and projected he could go in the 5 to 10 spot.
He could be the highest graded guard to come out since... Â
Larry Allen was a 2nd round pick so it's really not the right comparison. He should be compared to other guards who were taken in the top ten since the Giants will be picking in the top ten. And other QBs who were taken in the top ten. And passrushers who were taken in the top ten.
Otherwise you wind up with would you rather draft the next Larry Allen or the next Tom Brady? And the answer to that question is pretty simple.
had a stud CB, LT, or pass rusher, then I understand. But as of now, a blue chip LT doesn't seem to be in this class. The best DBs are safeties (which I'd still be fine with), and the pass rushers have been a bit underwhelming. Long way to go, but that's where things stand right now.
I understand the value placed on those positions. However, my only point is let's not let the idea that there's only certain positions you should pick in the top 10 impact our thinking. Don't reach for a "premium position" over the flat out better player. And I'd hope our grades aren't impacted by the perceived value of the position they play, though I know they likely are.
Take the best player, to do otherwise is inefficient. That's how you end up with Ereck Flowers over Todd Gurley and Melvin Gordon. Or a whole host of top 10 busts over Zach Martin and Aaron Donald in 2014.
I'm guessing drafts would go a lot differently. Just a guess, mind you, but it's hard to imagine the Rams taking Greg Robinson over Zach Martin if they had a crystal ball!
the teams that have taken guards in the top 10 recently that I recall are Cardinals with Cooper, Titans with Warmack, Skins with Schareff. Now, Schareff is a good player. But again, he's a guard. If you take a guard in the top 10 you are basically saying that every other position on your team is not only set, but you're very skilled at each of them.
had a stud CB, LT, or pass rusher, then I understand. But as of now, a blue chip LT doesn't seem to be in this class. The best DBs are safeties (which I'd still be fine with), and the pass rushers have been a bit underwhelming. Long way to go, but that's where things stand right now.
I understand the value placed on those positions. However, my only point is let's not let the idea that there's only certain positions you should pick in the top 10 impact our thinking. Don't reach for a "premium position" over the flat out better player. And I'd hope our grades aren't impacted by the perceived value of the position they play, though I know they likely are.
Take the best player, to do otherwise is inefficient. That's how you end up with Ereck Flowers over Todd Gurley and Melvin Gordon. Or a whole host of top 10 busts over Zach Martin and Aaron Donald in 2014.
Why are you assuming the Giants or any other team had higher grades on Gurly or Gordon but chose Flowers out of need? Or that teams passed on Martin and/or Donald based on the perceived value of the positions they play? Maybe teams just got it wrong with the grade.
There is a very, very long history of teams putting the wrong grade on a player. In 2013, two pure guards (Jonathan Cooper and Chance Warmack) went in the top ten and a QB wasn't selected until pick #16. Sometimes teams just get it wrong and the "perceived value of the position they play" has nothing to do with it.
Quentin Nelson could be another Zach Martin or he could be another Chance Warmack. Josh Rosen could be another Peyton Manning or another Ryan Leaf. This whole thing would be a lot easier if we had a crystal ball.
RE: Pass rushers, CBs, WRs, QBs, LTs are more valuable Â
Heard they want Josh Allen as their QB. Get their 1st Rounder this year, their 2nd rounder (not the one the Seahawks traded to them), and the Jets 2019 1st Round pick.
That should put the Giants in position to draft Nelson, who would immediately help the Giants O-Line. Might make Pugh expendable as well because keeping him would be costly. With the Giants 1st 2nd Round pick, they take G/C Billy Price from Ohio State. He replaces Richburg at Center and save the Giants a little more money.
Instant upgrade at the O-Line. You control the LOS, you control the game. Heck, maybe keep Eli upright a little longer and improve the running game.
I just don't see the Giants trying to go for a DE when they got Vernon and JPP on big money contracts. Seems like if thats a need they'll spend $$$ as opposed to drafting.
As interior offensive linemen continue to get recordbreaking contracts, where teams will start drafting interior lineman higher to make up for the fact that it's becoming harder and harder to find quality.
I agree. The OL talent across the NFL is lacking, GMs are going to become less concerned about which OL portion they fit and just start drafting them higher because they are quality offensive linemen.
We actually agree here, will be interesting to see how the prospects grade out, this is looking like a crucial pick for NYG.
Absolutely, should be fascinating. Especially considering there seems to be a decent chance we play ourselves out of a top 3 pick and the opportunity to take one of the QBs without a trade up.
Personally, I'm really hoping a pass rusher emerges during the pre-draft process.
You are correct, obviously I'm not privy to the exact grades the Giants or other teams have on players. But I do recall Gurley and Donald especially being considered top 5 players in their class, who fell due to some positional bias.
All I'm saying is that I'd like to see us get away from the idea that there's no way you can take a certain position at a certain pick. It's industry group think that doesn't help.
Totally agree with this, admittedly it is a microscopic sample size, but the ND line looked awful, the whole line, and mcglinchey looked like a statue... I'm not against a G in top 5, but that guy better be great, I just didn't seee it
He and McGlinchey looked awful against Miami. They were overwhelmed. Maybe it was a bad game... Post-season workouts will be critical to re-establish some credibility...
RE: RE: Those positions hold more value than an OG Â
Few OGs are Larry Allen or remotely close in impact.
Without question, NYG needs to invest more in the interior OL, but it doesn't figure to be a top 10 choice. Left tackle could be a different story, but I don't see them budging off Flowers yet.
Only casual football fans devalue the Guard position in today's NFL.
Strong Guard play is PARAMOUNT to winning in today's NFL.
Here's a man who gets it. Would love to upgrade Nelson over Jerry.
he's more of a mauler (nasty in run game) than ZM but not as versatile
I know you're just relaying the typical front office mindset, and I have little doubt that Reese thinks this way, but we have got to get away from this approach. I bet a lot of teams in the top 10 from 2014 wish they had Zach Martin instead of what they got.
The bargain shopping at certain positions, thinking they're not worthy of premium dollars, has not worked
QB, DE, RB, DB, OL
I personally think that Nelson is the way to go. He would make our offense more nasty and powerful.
I happen to Agree, but I just don't see a defensive player that jumps out at me at the moment.
Fitzpatrick might compliment Collins nicely. GREAT ball skills but he isn't much of a tackler. Those CF types are tough to project. I think he's more of a corner in the NFL.
Chubb has the size we know the NYG brass covet and is an interesting two way DE. Not as quick twitchy as you'd like from a DE who's expected to go this high. Certainly doesn't have the explosion of Garrett.
Some interesting CB prospects, but none that I'd call blue chippers. I also don't see the spending another first rounder on a CB in this draft.
From what little I saw, Nelson looks like a player, I would find it hard to draft an OG with a top 10 pick unless you think he’s a Larry Allen clone. The Skins took Scherf with the 5th pick a few years ago and while he’s good,he’s not that good. The player I’m curious about is McClinchy on ND but I don’t see him as super special but I don’t watch much college
Quote:
.
I happen to Agree, but I just don't see a defensive player that jumps out at me at the moment.
Fitzpatrick might compliment Collins nicely. GREAT ball skills but he isn't much of a tackler. Those CF types are tough to project. I think he's more of a corner in the NFL.
Chubb has the size we know the NYG brass covet and is an interesting two way DE. Not as quick twitchy as you'd like from a DE who's expected to go this high. Certainly doesn't have the explosion of Garrett.
Some interesting CB prospects, but none that I'd call blue chippers. I also don't see the spending another first rounder on a CB in this draft.
Look for Key to rise, agree it might be too high for a DB, also figure there will be an offensive weapon or two that rises they'll like. If we're picking top 2 it's likely all moot.
Agreed. That will probably be the approach.
As I've said, the whole "Rosen or Darnold" debate may well be irrelevant. Rosen is likely going #1, and Darnold may stay in school. And if Darnold comes out, he could easily go #2. What if the Giants are picking fifth or sixth? The cost to move up for either of those players would be astronomical in terms of future draft picks.
Rosen, Darnold, and Barkley might well be gone by the time the Giants pick. That leaves Chubb, Nelson, and Allen. The Giants would probably pick Chubb. He or Nelson would be fine, but I'd rather trade down. Part of the reason I want Reese gone is that he has never traded down in any round. He has too much confidence in his picks, and doesn't understand that extra picks provide needed depth.
Quote:
NYG places the value elsewhere, and one thing we absolutely don't want to see is a philosophy over-correction either. Take the BPA, if he's an OG so be it. My money would be on QB, pass rusher, or best defensive player grading out higher than OG.
Agreed. That will probably be the approach.
As I've said, the whole "Rosen or Darnold" debate may well be irrelevant. Rosen is likely going #1, and Darnold may stay in school. And if Darnold comes out, he could easily go #2. What if the Giants are picking fifth or sixth? The cost to move up for either of those players would be astronomical in terms of future draft picks.
Rosen, Darnold, and Barkley might well be gone by the time the Giants pick. That leaves Chubb, Nelson, and Allen. The Giants would probably pick Chubb. He or Nelson would be fine, but I'd rather trade down. Part of the reason I want Reese gone is that he has never traded down in any round. He has too much confidence in his picks, and doesn't understand that extra picks provide needed depth.
Definitely a tricky looking crop to be picking near the top! Plenty of time before April to see if key positions rise, I'm looking at the DEs and LTs along with the QBs. Giants need a cornerstone talent at a key position from this rare opportunity.
A road grading, elite guard makes this offensive line very solid provided we continue to see progression from Flowers/Wheeler/Jones.
A pass rushing specialist in Chubb finally provides this defense with what it truly needs. A 3rd DE that can rush the passer.
Barkley gives this offense something it has been missing since Tiki. An all-purpose back that other teams will have to account for. It also makes the offense less predictable being that he can be a 3-down back.
This philosophy has neutered the roster.
Few OGs are Larry Allen or remotely close in impact.
Without question, NYG needs to invest more in the interior OL, but it doesn't figure to be a top 10 choice. Left tackle could be a different story, but I don't see them budging off Flowers yet.
And maybe pools of 3. And any position 'chit' can be duplicated within that pool. (Make it 4 then).
So, for your first 4 rounds you might work with a pool for 2018 for example, of:
(G, G, DT, LB) until it's 'empty'
Next 4 (trade down?)
(Lb, Lb, DE, RB)
And so forth.
Pools obviously would change greatly year to year.
But assuming one accepts the method it would be pretty dumb to have the same pools each year.
I mean, many starting wrs you need? 12? 20? 37? And how many QBs? ,7?...8?
Smaller pools and another set for later draft lower rounds, is to focus the efforts and minds of the staff.
You might ID s few outliers for 'if they drop'. But only with great discipline . like one individual named player per pool period.
Few OGs are Larry Allen or remotely close in impact.
Without question, NYG needs to invest more in the interior OL, but it doesn't figure to be a top 10 choice. Left tackle could be a different story, but I don't see them budging off Flowers yet.
You draft players, not positions. If it’s “universal,” then no wonder the usual suspects are picking in the top 10 every year.
Quote:
that's likely universal in the NFL.
Few OGs are Larry Allen or remotely close in impact.
Without question, NYG needs to invest more in the interior OL, but it doesn't figure to be a top 10 choice. Left tackle could be a different story, but I don't see them budging off Flowers yet.
Only casual football fans devalue the Guard position in today's NFL.
Strong Guard play is PARAMOUNT to winning in today's NFL.
No it is not.
Quote:
.
I happen to Agree, but I just don't see a defensive player that jumps out at me at the moment.
Fitzpatrick might compliment Collins nicely. GREAT ball skills but he isn't much of a tackler. Those CF types are tough to project. I think he's more of a corner in the NFL.
Chubb has the size we know the NYG brass covet and is an interesting two way DE. Not as quick twitchy as you'd like from a DE who's expected to go this high. Certainly doesn't have the explosion of Garrett.
Some interesting CB prospects, but none that I'd call blue chippers. I also don't see the spending another first rounder on a CB in this draft.
Derwin James. Key. The LB Oko from Oklahoma whose full name im not even going to attempt.
He reminds me of a bigger Chris Snee.
Getting Bradley Chubb at the start of his career is awfully tempting. Blue Chip 43 Defensive End. You only get a shot at those at the top of the draft.
Quote:
that's likely universal in the NFL.
Few OGs are Larry Allen or remotely close in impact.
Without question, NYG needs to invest more in the interior OL, but it doesn't figure to be a top 10 choice. Left tackle could be a different story, but I don't see them budging off Flowers yet.
You draft players, not positions. If it’s “universal,” then no wonder the usual suspects are picking in the top 10 every year.
You draft players but some positions simply grade out higher than others based on scarcity of resources and importance to the actual game of football.
He said that by the time the grading is done on him, he's going to have one of the best grades for a guard that he's given out in his 35 years of doing the draft and projected he could go in the 5 to 10 spot.
Otherwise you wind up with would you rather draft the next Larry Allen or the next Tom Brady? And the answer to that question is pretty simple.
I understand the value placed on those positions. However, my only point is let's not let the idea that there's only certain positions you should pick in the top 10 impact our thinking. Don't reach for a "premium position" over the flat out better player. And I'd hope our grades aren't impacted by the perceived value of the position they play, though I know they likely are.
Take the best player, to do otherwise is inefficient. That's how you end up with Ereck Flowers over Todd Gurley and Melvin Gordon. Or a whole host of top 10 busts over Zach Martin and Aaron Donald in 2014.
I understand the value placed on those positions. However, my only point is let's not let the idea that there's only certain positions you should pick in the top 10 impact our thinking. Don't reach for a "premium position" over the flat out better player. And I'd hope our grades aren't impacted by the perceived value of the position they play, though I know they likely are.
Take the best player, to do otherwise is inefficient. That's how you end up with Ereck Flowers over Todd Gurley and Melvin Gordon. Or a whole host of top 10 busts over Zach Martin and Aaron Donald in 2014.
There is a very, very long history of teams putting the wrong grade on a player. In 2013, two pure guards (Jonathan Cooper and Chance Warmack) went in the top ten and a QB wasn't selected until pick #16. Sometimes teams just get it wrong and the "perceived value of the position they play" has nothing to do with it.
Quentin Nelson could be another Zach Martin or he could be another Chance Warmack. Josh Rosen could be another Peyton Manning or another Ryan Leaf. This whole thing would be a lot easier if we had a crystal ball.
This is how Reese has drafted every year since he’s been here and look at the roster. Definition of insanity.
That should put the Giants in position to draft Nelson, who would immediately help the Giants O-Line. Might make Pugh expendable as well because keeping him would be costly. With the Giants 1st 2nd Round pick, they take G/C Billy Price from Ohio State. He replaces Richburg at Center and save the Giants a little more money.
Instant upgrade at the O-Line. You control the LOS, you control the game. Heck, maybe keep Eli upright a little longer and improve the running game.
I just don't see the Giants trying to go for a DE when they got Vernon and JPP on big money contracts. Seems like if thats a need they'll spend $$$ as opposed to drafting.
Link - ( New Window )
Absolutely, should be fascinating. Especially considering there seems to be a decent chance we play ourselves out of a top 3 pick and the opportunity to take one of the QBs without a trade up.
Personally, I'm really hoping a pass rusher emerges during the pre-draft process.
All I'm saying is that I'd like to see us get away from the idea that there's no way you can take a certain position at a certain pick. It's industry group think that doesn't help.
In comment 13700354 bw in dc said:
Quote:
that's likely universal in the NFL.
Few OGs are Larry Allen or remotely close in impact.
Without question, NYG needs to invest more in the interior OL, but it doesn't figure to be a top 10 choice. Left tackle could be a different story, but I don't see them budging off Flowers yet.
Only casual football fans devalue the Guard position in today's NFL.
Strong Guard play is PARAMOUNT to winning in today's NFL.
Here's a man who gets it. Would love to upgrade Nelson over Jerry.