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Brian Baldinger breaks down Giants Offensive Line

BigBlueHens : 11/21/2017 1:50 pm
Some interesting film and breakdowns on the Giants offensive line play this past week. The O line gave Eli time to make his reads and some good throws. Interesting stat is that Eli dropped back 35 times and was hit once all afternoon, according to Baldinger.

The link to his twitter account is posted, where the videos/breakdowns can be found.
Link - ( New Window )
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RE: Reese  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/21/2017 2:52 pm : link
In comment 13700485 Giants said:
Quote:
told us there were no OL out there to get this off season. Meanwhile the Vikings signed five starting OL and look at them now. Reese needs to go


There were guys to get. Castoffs that nobody thought much of. Which is exactly what the Vikings paid for with guys like Remmers.

The argument this offseason should be not going after an old but good player like Whitworth, not wildly overpaying for guys with bad track records then playing the hindsight game when they get a decent line out of it.
Reese does not get credit for Wheeler!!  
SLIM_ : 11/21/2017 2:52 pm : link
Not when he gave up two picks for Bisnowaty.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile - cautiously optimistic about Wheeler but it is only 1 game.
RE: Everything for a reason ...  
djstat : 11/21/2017 2:53 pm : link
In comment 13700516 Manny in CA said:
Quote:

If Pugh and Hart hadn't got hurt, Fluker and Wheeler wouldn't have got a shot.

McAddo would have played the old "Consistency Card" all the way to a 1-15 record. Now Fluker's hurt, that's a real shame, he's a very good on-the-field teacher for Wheeler.

Looking at next year, #1 priority is Center; Richburg is a flop.
Jones has been a solid center
RE: Baldinger must have exercising sarcasm  
gmen9892 : 11/21/2017 3:00 pm : link
In comment 13700524 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
Mr. #9 pick is holding his man, which Baldinger says he is, and it's a lb that Mr #9 outweighs by 80 lb. He's moved from "sucks" to "not quite sucks." The UDFA is "mauling" his man by holding him while the RB gets a whole 2 yards. BFD.

For all the griping you guys do about officiating, we got away with two right there.


You do realize that the refs could call holding on just about every single play, right? Every OL does it. Its about being smart about it, and getting your hands inside.
RE: RE: Reese  
jbeintherockies : 11/21/2017 3:18 pm : link
In comment 13700530 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13700485 Giants said:


Quote:


told us there were no OL out there to get this off season. Meanwhile the Vikings signed five starting OL and look at them now. Reese needs to go

There were guys to get. Castoffs that nobody thought much of. Which is exactly what the Vikings paid for with guys like Remmers.

The argument this offseason should be not going after an old but good player like Whitworth, not wildly overpaying for guys with bad track records then playing the hindsight game when they get a decent line out of it.

Accorsi did a great job signing offensive line castoffs: O'Hara, Glenn Parker, Zeigler, Lomas Brown, Kareem McKenzie to name a few.
I can't remember Parker or Brown  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/21/2017 3:22 pm : link
But O'Hara was a scrap heap pickup with no risk attached.

RE: RE: Baldinger must have exercising sarcasm  
jbeintherockies : 11/21/2017 3:26 pm : link
In comment 13700541 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
In comment 13700524 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


Mr. #9 pick is holding his man, which Baldinger says he is, and it's a lb that Mr #9 outweighs by 80 lb. He's moved from "sucks" to "not quite sucks." The UDFA is "mauling" his man by holding him while the RB gets a whole 2 yards. BFD.

For all the griping you guys do about officiating, we got away with two right there.

You do realize that the refs could call holding on just about every single play, right? Every OL does it. Its about being smart about it, and getting your hands inside.

Definitely a hold and it could be argued that the DT being held could have made the play if he wasn't being held. That seems to influence when the umpire throws the holding flag.
NFL Officials - positions and responsiblilties - ( New Window )
Ten Ton  
jbeintherockies : 11/21/2017 3:27 pm : link
I didn't understand your post:
Quote:
The argument this offseason should be not going after an old but good player like Whitworth, not wildly overpaying for guys with bad track records then playing the hindsight game when they get a decent line out of it.

Can you clarify please?
O'Hara  
giants#1 : 11/21/2017 3:29 pm : link
He was definitely an under the radar pickup, but he still got a 3 yr/$5M deal from the Giants initially. In today's NFL, that's probably comparable to the deal Jerry got this past offseason (i.e. low end starter/high end backup), especially considering center is usually the cheapest of the OL positions.

RE: RE: the fuck did Reese do?  
totowa_gman : 11/21/2017 3:38 pm : link
In comment 13700475 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 13700473 Rocky369 said:


Quote:


?



Been with the organization since 1994 & contributed towards 2 SB titles? Does that count?


Here are all of Reese's picks from when he became GM. In case you don't want to go through them all, they are pretty bad...

2007 1 Aaron Ross
2007 2 Steve Smith
2007 3 Jay Alford
2007 4 Zak DeOssie
2007 5 Kevin Boss
2007 6 Adam Koets
2007 7 Michael Johnson
2007 7 Ahmad Bradshaw

2008 1 Kenny Phillips
2008 2 Terrell Thomas
2008 3 Mario Manningham
2008 4 Bryan Kehl
2008 5 Jonathan Goff
2008 6 Andre Woodson
2008 6 Robert Henderson

2009 1 Hakeem Nicks
2009 2 Clint Sintim
2009 2 Will Beatty
2009 3 Ramses Barden
2009 3 Travis Beckum
2009 4 Andre Brown
2009 5 Rhett Bomar
2009 6 DeAndre Wright
2009 7 Stoney Woodson


2010 1 Jason Pierre-Paul
2010 2 Linval Joseph
2010 3 Chad Jones
2010 4 Phillip Dillard
2010 5 Mitch Petrus
2010 6 Adrian Tracy
2010 7 Matt Dodge


2011 1 Prince Amukamara
2011 2 Marvin Austin
2011 3 Jerrel Jernigan
2011 4 James Brewer
2011 6 Greg Jones
2011 6 Tyler Sash
2011 6 Jacquian Williams
2011 7 Da'Rel Scott

2012 1 David Wilson
2012 2 Rueben Randle
2012 3 Jayron Hosley
2012 4 Adrien Robinson
2012 4 Brandon Mosley
2012 6 Matt McCants
2012 7 Markus Kuhn


2013 1 Justin Pugh
2013 2 Johnathan Hankins
2013 3 Damontre Moore
2013 4 Ryan Nassib
2013 5 Cooper Taylor
2013 7 Eric Herman
2013 7 Michael Cox

2014 1 Odell Beckham
2014 2 Weston Richburg
2014 3 Jay Bromley
2014 4 Andre Williams
2014 5 Nat Berhe
2014 5 Devon Kennard
2014 6 Bennett Jackson

2015 1 Ereck Flowers
2015 2 Landon Collins
2015 3 Owamagbe Odighizuwa
2015 5 Mykkele Thompson
2015 6 Geremy Davis
2015 7 Bobby Hart

2016 1 Eli Apple
2016 2 Sterling Shepard
2016 3 Darian Thompson
2016 4 B.J. Goodson
2016 5 Paul Perkins
2016 6 Jerell Adams

2017 1 Evan Engram
2017 2 Dalvin Tomlinson
2017 3 Davis Webb
2017 4 Wayne Gallman
2017 5 Avery Moss
2017 6 Adam Bisnowaty

There's a clip in his play where Wheeler is one on one with Houston  
ajr2456 : 11/21/2017 3:43 pm : link
and he manhandles him. His ability to lock out and control his guy is impressive for an UDFA. Once his hand placement gets more consistent he'll be a very good tackle.

Flowers really has two major flaws that if corrected can turn him into an excellent tackle. That dip of the head out of his stance and his hand placement. When he's inside a guys shoulder pads and locked out he's very good. He's just inconsistent in both those areas.
clear that the coach/scheme was the issue  
hitdog42 : 11/21/2017 3:44 pm : link
playing hart as a starting point a terrible idea.
not playing fluker as a starting point... terrible idea

team could not run because of the OL choices... and the QB is immobile... so teams could just tee off on us.

we also were doing things like play action on 2nd and 12... and other nonsense.

so the scheme/coaching has improved a bit and we have players in better spots to allow the team to succeed.

the OL needs to add 1 stud via 1st round pick or FA... and we have 4 other players that would put together a solid OL.
RE: He is signing Wheeler's praises  
Alan in Toledo : 11/21/2017 3:44 pm : link
In comment 13700487 ThreePoints said:
Quote:
Seems very impressed with Chad Wheeler.


Tra-la-la.
RE: clear that the coach/scheme was the issue  
ryanmkeane : 11/21/2017 3:45 pm : link
In comment 13700590 hitdog42 said:
Quote:


the OL needs to add 1 stud via 1st round pick or FA... and we have 4 other players that would put together a solid OL.

Completely agree. 1 OL via high draft or talented FA paired with the best 4-5 guys we have, will make this a solid OL.
The fact that  
ryanmkeane : 11/21/2017 3:47 pm : link
Hart was still going out there week after week after his performances...I still can't believe it
Kareem McKenzie  
jacob12 : 11/21/2017 4:10 pm : link
Kareem McKenzie was not a castoff.He was one of the highest paid offensive tackles in the NFL.
Wow....  
Reb8thVA : 11/21/2017 4:36 pm : link
For one reason or another, there is no one left in the league from the 2007,2008,2009 drafts. I realize some of this is beyond his control but interesting nonetheless
Or the 2011  
Reb8thVA : 11/21/2017 4:37 pm : link
And 2012 drafts
RE: Week 10  
Route 9 : 11/21/2017 4:47 pm : link
In comment 13700515 jbeintherockies said:
Quote:
Yes, excellent. It only took 10 weeks for the Giants' offensive line to play at an NFL level.

Reese should get all of the credit, hands down.


Haha don't say that too loud!
RE: There's a clip in his play where Wheeler is one on one with Houston  
HomerJones45 : 11/21/2017 5:07 pm : link
In comment 13700589 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
and he manhandles him. His ability to lock out and control his guy is impressive for an UDFA. Once his hand placement gets more consistent he'll be a very good tackle.

Flowers really has two major flaws that if corrected can turn him into an excellent tackle. That dip of the head out of his stance and his hand placement. When he's inside a guys shoulder pads and locked out he's very good. He's just inconsistent in both those areas.
Manhandles?? Houston looks like he has outside contain and is not even trying to do anything more. Please.
RE: The fact that  
HomerJones45 : 11/21/2017 5:13 pm : link
In comment 13700597 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Hart was still going out there week after week after his performances...I still can't believe it
An indication as to how good Chad Wheeler is.

Do you guys ever get tired of puffing up prospects? Herman, Bisnowaty, Hart etc etc etc etc these guys are all budding stars until cold reality sets in 2 or 3 years down the road. Wheeler was passed on by 32 teams for 6 rounds. We, who have not found a decent UDFA since Victor Cruz sign him and he's now "manhandling" veterans. Hopefully they get him out of there before other teams have some film on him, learn his weaknesses and kick his ass all over the field.
Zak DeOssie  
tomjgiant : 11/21/2017 5:33 pm : link
still on the team from 2007
Credit to Drew Boylhart for being well-ahead of the curve...  
Milton : 11/21/2017 6:02 pm : link
...on Chad Wheeler.
Quote:
Chadís ability to recover and adjust and continue to trust his techniques along with his natural athletic talents shows maturity beyond most left tackles coming out in a draft. He has excellent lateral agility and foot speed to go out to the second level or be used on sweeps, screen plays or pulling...Chad is the real deal and should be considered as a top player to select in this draft very early except for his history of operations...If he can get stronger and healthier there could be pro bowls in his future...Because of his injuries heís a boom or bust player but if you select him in the latter rounds of the draft thatís a chance of the bust portion being minimized.

full profile - ( New Window )
Homer Jones45  
Marty866b : 11/21/2017 6:05 pm : link
Wheeler was passed over in the draft mainly for off the field issues. I believe he would have been a middle round pick without the issues. He started at left tackle for USC for 3 years and was all conference with good measurables.
RE: Kareem McKenzie  
jbeintherockies : 11/21/2017 6:06 pm : link
In comment 13700631 jacob12 said:
Quote:
Kareem McKenzie was not a castoff.He was one of the highest paid offensive tackles in the NFL.

Not when he was initially signed from the Jets.
RE: RE: Kareem McKenzie  
Milton : 11/21/2017 6:21 pm : link
In comment 13700789 jbeintherockies said:
Quote:
In comment 13700631 jacob12 said:


Quote:


Kareem McKenzie was not a castoff.He was one of the highest paid offensive tackles in the NFL.


Not when he was initially signed from the Jets.
The Giants made McKenzie the highest paid right tackle in football when they signed him from the Jets...
Quote:
Kareem McKenzie signed a 7 year, $37,500,000 contract with the New York Giants, including a $12,500,000 signing bonus, and an average annual salary of $5,357,143.
RE: Baldinger must have exercising sarcasm  
Simms11 : 11/21/2017 6:22 pm : link
In comment 13700524 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
Mr. #9 pick is holding his man, which Baldinger says he is, and it's a lb that Mr #9 outweighs by 80 lb. He's moved from "sucks" to "not quite sucks." The UDFA is "mauling" his man by holding him while the RB gets a whole 2 yards. BFD.

For all the griping you guys do about officiating, we got away with two right there.


Thereís holding on almost every play in the NFL, but itís all a matter of how to do it without the refs calling it.
The OL has been decent this year  
ArtVandelay : 11/21/2017 6:31 pm : link
Only when both Richburg and Hart are not playing. Also Jerry at LG is better than Jerry at RG.
I'll tell you what -- Wheeler has greatly bulked up  
gidiefor : Mod : 11/21/2017 6:33 pm : link
especially in his thighs and legs since training camp - he is much beefier then when we interviewed him
RE: Ten Ton  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/21/2017 6:35 pm : link
In comment 13700567 jbeintherockies said:
Quote:
I didn't understand your post:


Quote:


The argument this offseason should be not going after an old but good player like Whitworth, not wildly overpaying for guys with bad track records then playing the hindsight game when they get a decent line out of it.


Can you clarify please?


There was a very legitimate discussion this offseason whether the Giants should have gone after Andrew Whitworth. Very good, highly regarded tackle. 36 years old.

In this thread, someone mentioned the Vikings signing a bunch of free agent linemen and now having a good line. The players they signed for a lot of money are players who have bounced around the league for a handful of teams, coming off mediocre individual seasons. I'm contending it's a bad point to make that the Giants should have known to sign such players.
I stand corrected.  
jbeintherockies : 11/21/2017 6:41 pm : link
I remember the signing. I remember saying to my brother, who is that? I didn't know his first contract with the Giants was for so long.

Regardless, I still feel Accorsi did a good job signing offensive linemen that contributed and were not embarrassments. Accorsi could build an offensive line; Reese can't.

Grey Ruegamer was another guy that comes to mind. He was a very solid backup that started games for the Giants during their 2007 Super Bowl run.

RE: Kareem McKenzie  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/21/2017 6:55 pm : link
In comment 13700631 jacob12 said:
Quote:
Kareem McKenzie was not a castoff.He was one of the highest paid offensive tackles in the NFL.


I don't get it. Did someone suggest he was a castoff?
RE: RE: Ten Ton  
jbeintherockies : 11/21/2017 6:59 pm : link
In comment 13700810 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13700567 jbeintherockies said:

Quote:

I didn't understand your post:

Quote:

The argument this offseason should be not going after an old but good player like Whitworth, not wildly overpaying for guys with bad track records then playing the hindsight game when they get a decent line out of it.

Can you clarify please?

There was a very legitimate discussion this offseason whether the Giants should have gone after Andrew Whitworth. Very good, highly regarded tackle. 36 years old.

In this thread, someone mentioned the Vikings signing a bunch of free agent linemen and now having a good line. The players they signed for a lot of money are players who have bounced around the league for a handful of teams, coming off mediocre individual seasons. I'm contending it's a bad point to make that the Giants should have known to sign such players.

Ok, I understand now. Agreed, hind-sight is 20-20. Two things:
1. I really think Reese wanted them to play the guys they had. He wanted to see if they could do it. I really believe that.
2. One of the points I was trying to make is Accorsi did a great job signing offensive linemen that no one wanted and were relatively cheap (except McKenzie). But the guys he signed were all productive. Glenn Parker (KC) and Lomas Brown (DET), for example, were at the end of their careers. No one wanted them. But they came in a played well; they contributed. And they didn't break the bank doing it.

Signing expensive free agents that can come in and produce ... anyone can do that. You and I can do that.

Maybe times are different now then they were ten years ago. Maybe offensive linemen are more expensive now because there are fewer of them. But I doubt it. I still think if you know what to look for you can find productive offensive linemen that won't cost an arm-and-a-leg.

RE: RE: Kareem McKenzie  
jbeintherockies : 11/21/2017 7:01 pm : link
In comment 13700825 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13700631 jacob12 said:

Quote:

Kareem McKenzie was not a castoff.He was one of the highest paid offensive tackles in the NFL.

I don't get it. Did someone suggest he was a castoff?


I did at 3:18pm. I was incorrect.
Thereís some pretty good analysis  
Simms11 : 11/21/2017 7:17 pm : link
in here on Wheeler, Flowers and Fluker.

Itís a shame that Fluker is out now with a toe injury because I really think he worked well with Wheeler. Right side was less of a liability last Sunday.
Link - ( New Window )
he was brutal on the 3rd down play calls  
mdc1 : 11/21/2017 7:45 pm : link
short of the marker and he is right and been discussed again and again
Reese has not been perfect but the Giants would be fools to can him...  
Dry Lightning : 11/21/2017 7:50 pm : link
The players are here. Same players went 11-5. It is the coaches fault for not having the vision to make changes. Brett Jones can play. Fluker should have been put in immediately. Some poor decisions there. In defense of BM, it is hard to make big changes coming of 11-5, but the line was putrid from the preseason well into the schedule. Changes were screaming to be made and he would not do it. Might cost him his job. Lest we forget, young coaches make mistakes. Bill Parcells picking Scott Brunner over Phil Simms comes to mind.
RE: Homer Jones45  
HomerJones45 : 11/21/2017 7:51 pm : link
In comment 13700788 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Wheeler was passed over in the draft mainly for off the field issues. I believe he would have been a middle round pick without the issues. He started at left tackle for USC for 3 years and was all conference with good measurables.
of course he was! Another Jerry Reese fire sale special. Just like Nassib, Austen, Moore etc etc etc.

RE: Reese has not been perfect but the Giants would be fools to can him...  
HomerJones45 : 11/21/2017 7:57 pm : link
In comment 13700870 Dry Lightning said:
Quote:
The players are here. Same players went 11-5. It is the coaches fault for not having the vision to make changes. Brett Jones can play. Fluker should have been put in immediately. Some poor decisions there. In defense of BM, it is hard to make big changes coming of 11-5, but the line was putrid from the preseason well into the schedule. Changes were screaming to be made and he would not do it. Might cost him his job. Lest we forget, young coaches make mistakes. Bill Parcells picking Scott Brunner over Phil Simms comes to mind.
go
Ahead. Fuck around some more with Jerry Reach. Make excuses for his failure. Waste another two or three years before you get someone in here who knows wtf they are doing

Don't be fooled. Teams with talent aren't 2-8 at this stage. Don't let last year be 1970.
RE: Reese has not been perfect but the Giants would be fools to can him...  
jbeintherockies : 11/21/2017 8:09 pm : link
In comment 13700870 Dry Lightning said:
Quote:
The players are here. Same players went 11-5. It is the coaches fault for not having the vision to make changes. Brett Jones can play. Fluker should have been put in immediately. Some poor decisions there. In defense of BM, it is hard to make big changes coming of 11-5, but the line was putrid from the preseason well into the schedule. Changes were screaming to be made and he would not do it. Might cost him his job. Lest we forget, young coaches make mistakes. Bill Parcells picking Scott Brunner over Phil Simms comes to mind.

Who hired McAdoo?
Why should Fluker have been put in immediately  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/21/2017 8:56 pm : link
When he couldn't beat out John Jerry or Bobby Hart in camp or preseason?
RE: RE: Reese has not been perfect but the Giants would be fools to can him...  
blueblood : 11/21/2017 9:17 pm : link
In comment 13700889 jbeintherockies said:
Quote:
In comment 13700870 Dry Lightning said:


Quote:


The players are here. Same players went 11-5. It is the coaches fault for not having the vision to make changes. Brett Jones can play. Fluker should have been put in immediately. Some poor decisions there. In defense of BM, it is hard to make big changes coming of 11-5, but the line was putrid from the preseason well into the schedule. Changes were screaming to be made and he would not do it. Might cost him his job. Lest we forget, young coaches make mistakes. Bill Parcells picking Scott Brunner over Phil Simms comes to mind.


Who hired McAdoo?


The Maras hire the head coach. Thats pretty much the way it has worked on the Giants.
RE: Thereís some pretty good analysis  
Ira : 11/21/2017 10:09 pm : link
In comment 13700837 Simms11 said:
Quote:
in here on Wheeler, Flowers and Fluker.

Itís a shame that Fluker is out now with a toe injury because I really think he worked well with Wheeler. Right side was less of a liability last Sunday. Link - ( New Window )


Thanks for the link. That's definitely a must see.
Itís becoming pretty clear to me  
bigbluehoya : 11/21/2017 10:21 pm : link
That letting Richburg walk is a no-brainer. Iím also starting to think that theyíre better off letting Pugh walk rather than pay top of the market UFA dollars. Heís seems to be a talented, versatile player and a hard worker, but to me not a difference maker to the tune of $10M+/year.
RE: Why should Fluker have been put in immediately  
SHO'NUFF : 11/22/2017 12:44 am : link
In comment 13700917 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
When he couldn't beat out John Jerry or Bobby Hart in camp or preseason?


You really trust the ability of the coaching staff to properly evaluate anybody at this point? 2 guys that are seeing playing time now only due to injury are playing better than the incumbents. If no injuries, no playing time. See how that works?
The line played better but don't let that lull you into thinking  
Brown Recluse : 11/22/2017 7:07 am : link
it still doesn't need a great deal of attention this coming offseason.

RE: Lots of good to see with this OL...  
Bramton1 : 11/22/2017 7:31 am : link
In comment 13700501 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
in the Chiefs game.

Interesting comment about Flowers though. We all hate it when he drops his hands and leads with his head, but maybe his problem is that he's trying to do something unnatural. Perhaps as Baldy points out, as long as he ends up with his hands inside, feet set, locked out against the DE and can control his man he's okay.

Either way, it's clear that after all this time, the coaching that he should keep his hands and head up, lead with the punch first in a traditional pass set, isn't working. He may never be able to consistently do that, so as Baldy alludes - perhaps the coaching should change to just encourage him to do it using his own style.

Can't believe I'm writing that. Methinks a better DE would have a field day with a LT who leads with his head. I'm going to watch this closely the rest of the year - will give me something to review games for anyway.


Apparently, there is a term among some football linemen in some circles, where a guy who leads with his head is called a Giuseppe, because he'll eventually end up on his knees.
This is very brutal...  
M.S. : 11/22/2017 10:17 am : link
2011 1 Prince Amukamara
2011 2 Marvin Austin
2011 3 Jerrel Jernigan
2011 4 James Brewer
2011 6 Greg Jones
2011 6 Tyler Sash
2011 6 Jacquian Williams
2011 7 Da'Rel Scott

2012 1 David Wilson
2012 2 Rueben Randle
2012 3 Jayron Hosley
2012 4 Adrien Robinson
2012 4 Brandon Mosley
2012 6 Matt McCants
2012 7 Markus Kuhn
RE: RE: Why should Fluker have been put in immediately  
jbeintherockies : 11/22/2017 11:52 am : link
In comment 13701018 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
In comment 13700917 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

When he couldn't beat out John Jerry or Bobby Hart in camp or preseason?

You really trust the ability of the coaching staff to properly evaluate anybody at this point? 2 guys that are seeing playing time now only due to injury are playing better than the incumbents. If no injuries, no playing time. See how that works?


I think some of you are being a little ridiculous with your praise.

I don't think Jones has been that spectacular and Wheeler has played one game.

How did Bobby Hart look in his first start? Probably good. He went down hill from there.

As for Fluker, he first had to learn the playbook. That takes time. Maybe that is why you didn't see him as quickly as you would have liked.

RE: Why should Fluker have been put in immediately  
Jimmy Googs : 11/22/2017 12:04 pm : link
In comment 13700917 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
When he couldn't beat out John Jerry or Bobby Hart in camp or preseason?


Who says there was a competition that was taken seriously by these coaches?
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