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| Flowers was subjected to an avalanche of criticism after that 24-10 loss to the Lions, and it was well deserved. He was helpless in trying to protect Manning from the likes of Ziggy Ansah and the Lions’ pass rush, giving up three sacks and doing nothing to convince skeptical fans he would be anything other than a complete bust. Well, guess what. All these weeks later, Flowers hasn’t given up a sack. Zero. None. Zilch. |
Lining up in 3 wide sets was getting him crushed.
Plus if Chad Wheeler shows he can play RT ( I know not his normal position). Get a guard early in the draft and possible let Flowers go and use that cap money on another position.
Yes, he has shown improvement but I think its been baby-steps.
Will watch closer versus Redskins, especially on obvious passing downs...
Amari Cooper is underwhelming. QBs are reasonably solid but far from superstars so far.
Gurley looks to have put it together but even he looked so-so his first two seasons. Value wise, he should have been the pick for NYG.
But good on Ereck. Will make the offseason more manageable if he keeps it up. And if Wheeler really pans out, now all of a sudden you just need a couple of guards. Trade down, Irish Nelson, FA. Oline suddenly a strength?
Yes, he has shown improvement but I think its been baby-steps.
Will watch closer versus Redskins, especially on obvious passing downs...
There is no way you are seeing "plenty" of quick pressure, at least not from Flowers' guy. I focus on him a lot and for the most part his guy is getting stonewalled.
:-)
The fact that Flowers is taking every offensive snap this season augurs well for his future here.
Now let's see if Wheeler can keep it up on his side.
They run the ball more, and they run 2-TE 2-RB sets more, so he's getting help.
As a group - Flowers, Pugh, Jones, Fluker and Wheeler have some "nasty" to them. Wheeler also adds some much-needed pass blocking stability on the edge. I would like to see that OLine carry into next season. Hopefully Pugh & Fluker can go next week, and let the chemistry grow.
Hah hasn’t given up a sack since week 2 and that’s not consistent enough.
They run the ball more, and they run 2-TE 2-RB sets more, so he's getting help.
You "don't buy" it? It's pretty clear that he has improved. Some are having a hard time abandoning their chosen narrative.
Plus if Chad Wheeler shows he can play RT ( I know not his normal position). Get a guard early in the draft and possible let Flowers go and use that cap money on another position.
You're asking the wrong question. The question to ask is, "is he worth the 5th year option at ~$12.5M?" (based on Jake Matthews' option). If yes, then they have 2 more years before having to give him a big deal with loads of guaranteed money.
Keep in mind that the option is guaranteed for injury only. So if they pick it up this offseason, but he regresses in 2018, they can still cut him prior to 2019 provided he's healthy.
They run the ball more, and they run 2-TE 2-RB sets more, so he's getting help.
Engram's only played 81%, Ellsion 49%, and Adams 10% so they're still using only a single TE quite a bit. Plus, at least last week, they gave a lot of help to Wheeler as a couple articles pointed out. So while Flowers probably saw some extra help while Pugh was at RT, he's also likely seen plenty of 1v1 matchups since Pugh has been out with Hart/Wheeler getting the help.
Lining up in 3 wide sets was getting him crushed.
I will never forgive mcadoo for his insistence on running that 11 personnel package over and over even when Beckham was hurt and the TEs were vastly improved. Mind boggling.
They run the ball more, and they run 2-TE 2-RB sets more, so he's getting help.
That's my take as well but it's fair to believe that flowers figured things out as well. Maybe a little bit of both. The system allowed flowers to breathe easier which in turn helped his confidence which led to improvements.
I hate this season so much.
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and not just a few games...
Hah hasn’t given up a sack since week 2 and that’s not consistent enough.
like I said...some of you are claiming victory after a few games were he is not noticeable. Look at that record and look at the offensive output. These guys have a long way to go..tough stretch coming up let's see what he's got.
Not saying he is any where need All Pro, but we all agreed league average would be good enough to help the team. Seems he has made league average or better. Give the man credit for working his ass off to get better, much better.
Happy Thanksgiving to all.
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But I do buy that the situation around him has changed and put him in better positions to succeed.
They run the ball more, and they run 2-TE 2-RB sets more, so he's getting help.
You "don't buy" it? It's pretty clear that he has improved. Some are having a hard time abandoning their chosen narrative.
First of all, I liked him as a prospect and I've been a lot more patient with him than most of the fans who post here. But I'm not ready to toss out 3 years of watching him struggle because he has had a string of games where he hasn't been noticeably bad. He has had good stretches before.
They are not asking him to do the same things they had been demanding of him over the last 5 games and over the length of time he's been starting. Don't take my word for it though:
The Giants have curbed their 11-personnel (three receivers, one tight end, one running back) inclination since Sullivan took over as play caller. The Giants averaged about 70 percent of their offensive snaps out of the formation in the five games McAdoo called plays this year (and it was a league-leading 92 percent in 2016).
It’s been just about 46 percent on average each week since Sullivan started calling plays, and they’ve begun to use more 12-personnel (two tight ends, two receivers, one back) and 13-personnel (three tight ends, one back, one receiver). The Giants have also used more 21-personnel (two backs, two receivers, one tight end).
The situation around him has changed, exposing him less to the types of situations where he's failed to perform, and putting him more often in situations where he can play to his strengths. It's not a knock against him. It's a good adjustment for a coaching staff to recognize what they have and try to fit the offense to the roster rather than the roster to the offense.
That said, if Flowers has improved, it hasn't done anything to help the offense. They graduated from an abysmal running team to a lower-end of mediocre one. They still can't line up and win the line of scrimmage with any consistency, they're horrible on 3rd down (30%), this football team averages 16 ppg over the past 5 games that flowers is said to have improved, and they're headed for the worst offense the Giants have ever fielded since the horrendous 2003 season. It's not his responsibility to fix all of that, but teams with solid left tackles aren't this bad at offense.
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In comment 13701407 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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But I do buy that the situation around him has changed and put him in better positions to succeed.
They run the ball more, and they run 2-TE 2-RB sets more, so he's getting help.
You "don't buy" it? It's pretty clear that he has improved. Some are having a hard time abandoning their chosen narrative.
First of all, I liked him as a prospect and I've been a lot more patient with him than most of the fans who post here. But I'm not ready to toss out 3 years of watching him struggle because he has had a string of games where he hasn't been noticeably bad. He has had good stretches before.
They are not asking him to do the same things they had been demanding of him over the last 5 games and over the length of time he's been starting. Don't take my word for it though:
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The Giants have struck a 56-44 pass-to-run balance with Sullivan calling plays. It was 66-34 with McAdoo, who had a tendency to abandon the run in the second half of games. Sullivan has not been as inclined to do so.
The Giants have curbed their 11-personnel (three receivers, one tight end, one running back) inclination since Sullivan took over as play caller. The Giants averaged about 70 percent of their offensive snaps out of the formation in the five games McAdoo called plays this year (and it was a league-leading 92 percent in 2016).
It’s been just about 46 percent on average each week since Sullivan started calling plays, and they’ve begun to use more 12-personnel (two tight ends, two receivers, one back) and 13-personnel (three tight ends, one back, one receiver). The Giants have also used more 21-personnel (two backs, two receivers, one tight end).
The situation around him has changed, exposing him less to the types of situations where he's failed to perform, and putting him more often in situations where he can play to his strengths. It's not a knock against him. It's a good adjustment for a coaching staff to recognize what they have and try to fit the offense to the roster rather than the roster to the offense.
That said, if Flowers has improved, it hasn't done anything to help the offense. They graduated from an abysmal running team to a lower-end of mediocre one. They still can't line up and win the line of scrimmage with any consistency, they're horrible on 3rd down (30%), this football team averages 16 ppg over the past 5 games that flowers is said to have improved, and they're headed for the worst offense the Giants have ever fielded since the horrendous 2003 season. It's not his responsibility to fix all of that, but teams with solid left tackles aren't this bad at offense.
These are all things that should have been done before Sullivan took over. They should continue to happen. Defenses were Ting off on our offensive line because of the predictability of 11 formation and not trying to establish the run.
Yet BBI wants all of this
I think its probable Pugh/Flowers return as the Tackles of the future
Yet BBI wants all of this
I think its probable Pugh/Flowers return as the Tackles of the future
I think the Tackles of the future are Flowers and Wheeler, with Pugh back at G. Then I agree Jones at C, Fluker/ or a high draft choice at the other G.
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trying to establish a run game, and running pass plays from different formations has done for the protection from the offensive line.
Lining up in 3 wide sets was getting him crushed.
I will never forgive mcadoo for his insistence on running that 11 personnel package over and over even when Beckham was hurt and th
e TEs were vastly improved. Mind boggling.
Why he needs to go. He's a horrible offensive coach. Stubborn and stupid. His offensive vision is Hellen Kelleresque
Yet BBI wants all of this
I think its probable Pugh/Flowers return as the Tackles of the future
Wheeler should be the LT next year. Pick up his option and move Flowers to RT. If they pick between 5-10 run to the podium and grab Quinton Nelson for G. Richberg needs to go unless he signed for dirt cheap. Pugh is going to ask for a huge deal. Always dinged and solid at best. So I'd keep him but he won't be worth what's he gets so re-sign Fluker
Let a new staff work w that group. IMO it will be a huge step
Forward and
They run the ball more, and they run 2-TE 2-RB sets more, so he's getting help.
Exactly. The guy still sucks. One of the articles posted on the front page broke down how he has chsnged his stance by moving his outside foot further back to not give up the speed rush but also discussed how he has become a far worse run-blocker because he is not able to fire off the ball in such a wide stance.
He has not gotten any better. He’s just robbing peter to pay paul.