Something I've wondered. Would he have survived the first shot through his back and throat if that had been the only one? Seems unlikely, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone speculate.
Not really. Have you done the tour of the Texas Book Repository? The downhill angle with the clean line of sight, made it a fairly easy shot. From that window the view makes it appear you are right on top of anything going down that hill. That doesn't discredit the multiple shooter theory, but it didn't require an expert marksman either.
Now the guy in the grassy knoll, he had to be a expert
I am a trauma surgeon (50+ years in the field) and a med school professor (Dept. of Surgery) I have studied this event, have been to the site, measured it, taken photos,collected material and data, etc. I have much material on it. It is an easy shot, especially with a telescopic site on the Manlicher Carcano 303 rifle and the target going in a straight line of sight (no tracking needed).
There were three shots. The president could have survived the first which entered his right chest posteriorly and exited through the knot in his tie, essentially doing a tracheostomy on him. Blood loss probably would not have been an issue as he got to Parkland in minutes and even if he had a one sided pneumothorax, quick work could have dealt with it. The second shot splattered the pavement and hit nothing else. The third shot is the issue. It hit the right occipito-parietal portion of his head and exploded it. It was NOT survivable.
The Warren Commission report of the "pristine" or "magic" bullet as it was called is impossible according to the rules of bullet trajectory and physics. A bullet was found on a stretcher at Parkland (not in the area of the ER) which is referred to as the "pristine" bullet (Exhibit 393) Much about 393 makes the Warren theory (proposed by Arlen Spector, the commission's attorney and later a US Senator) impossible (direction, trajectory, slope, missing metal particles, and other issues regarding skull bone fragments etc.) Spector proposed it as being the first shot which he also said did a series of tricks and turns as it wounded Connally after hitting JFK, landing in the governor's pants cuff and then on that stretcher where it was discovered. Bullets are not that smart and they must obey the laws of physics. While I believe that Oswald WAS the assassin, I cannot accept the explanation of 393 in the Warren report.
If you want to read something interesting get a book by Bonar Menninger (very well known book-later a TV presentation) entitled either "Mortal Error" or perhaps "Fatal Error" (I'm not sure which is right). While I cannot endorse all of what it concludes, it WILL give you something to think about and will interest you if you have JFK assassination theory interest.
in one of the earlier JFK threads , the single bullet theory was one of the biggest lies ever told to the American people . Governor Connally himself stated that he was struck by a different shot then the one that struck JFK's throat .
If you look closely at the Zapruder film , you will notice that as the shooting starts , the limo slows down significantly and almost comes to a complete stop as the shots ring out . The driver even looks back at JFK not once but twice and stares at JFK until he is fatally hit in the head . Then the limo finally speeds off . It was like shooting fish in a barrel . The president never had a chance . The shooters had to be guaranteed complete success . Nothing was left to chance . Oswald was likely working for the intelligence community and he was silenced before the truth could come out . Jack Ruby , when being questioned by the Warren Commission , requested to be taken out of Dallas to Washington , so he could be protected and tell the truth about why he silenced Oswald . His shooting of Oswald had nothing to do with wanting to spare Mrs. Kennedy having to go through Oswalds trial .
JFK was a northern liberal president that had made many conservative enemies in his few short years in office . From his refusal to invade Cuba to wanting get us out of Vietnam he was hated by the military industrial complex .
It should say something that only a small percentage of the documents that were supposed to be released last month were actually released . The law was passed in 1992 that they should have been made public by Oct. 26 . The CIA had a full 25 years to prepare to release the records and make any exceptions that were related to "national security" , yet the most important records have been withheld once again .
in one of the earlier JFK threads , the single bullet theory was one of the biggest lies ever told to the American people . Governor Connally himself stated that he was struck by a different shot then the one that struck JFK's throat .
Connally is not exactly an expert witness on this sort of thing. In any case, the Zapruder film contradicts his opinion. His reaction and JFK's reaction to being shot happen at virtually the same time (with perhaps a few frames difference.
Quote:
If you look closely at the Zapruder film , you will notice that as the shooting starts , the limo slows down significantly and almost comes to a complete stop as the shots ring out . The driver even looks back at JFK not once but twice and stares at JFK until he is fatally hit in the head . Then the limo finally speeds off . It was like shooting fish in a barrel . The president never had a chance . The shooters had to be guaranteed complete success . Nothing was left to chance . Oswald was likely working for the intelligence community and he was silenced before the truth could come out . Jack Ruby , when being questioned by the Warren Commission , requested to be taken out of Dallas to Washington , so he could be protected and tell the truth about why he silenced Oswald . His shooting of Oswald had nothing to do with wanting to spare Mrs. Kennedy having to go through Oswalds trial .
Nothing was left to chance. Except why, if Oswald needed to be silenced to prevent the truth from coming out, did they not need to silence the driver? Bill Greer would live another 22 years before dying of cancer.
I have reviewed the comments in this posting up through #15. How many of the comments are from people who have actual expertise in wound ballistics? Identify your expertise and forensic training and THEN we can determine what you know, what you think you know and what you don't know. How many of you know what K=1/2 MV2(V squared) bears in relevance to the incident? Does the amount of 7 grains of metal give anyone any ideas regarding the Connally arm and 393? Does the fact that the first shot came from 6 stories up bear any relevance to the angle of the slope of the fatal shot (the third)? Have any of you forensically examined the skull fragments collected from the street?
All of these data are forensically critically important and are related along with much other data too numerous to cite. I agree that the Warren Commission explanation is ballistics-wise impossible.
I have been in this field for many years and agree that much of what has been bantered about is nonsense scientifically but this is not the place for a discussion of amateur theories. I can say much more and have done so elsewhere in discussions at professional forensic meetings. I question the expertise of many of those posting theories and opinions here.
I have reviewed the comments in this posting up through #15. How many of the comments are from people who have actual expertise in wound ballistics? Identify your expertise and forensic training and THEN we can determine what you know, what you think you know and what you don't know. How many of you know what K=1/2 MV2(V squared) bears in relevance to the incident? Does the amount of 7 grains of metal give anyone any ideas regarding the Connally arm and 393? Does the fact that the first shot came from 6 stories up bear any relevance to the angle of the slope of the fatal shot (the third)? Have any of you forensically examined the skull fragments collected from the street?
All of these data are forensically critically important and are related along with much other data too numerous to cite. I agree that the Warren Commission explanation is ballistics-wise impossible.
I have been in this field for many years and agree that much of what has been bantered about is nonsense scientifically but this is not the place for a discussion of amateur theories. I can say much more and have done so elsewhere in discussions at professional forensic meetings. I question the expertise of many of those posting theories and opinions here.
Connally is not exactly an expert witness on this sort of thing. In any case, the Zapruder film contradicts his opinion. His reaction and JFK's reaction to being shot happen at virtually the same time (with perhaps a few frames difference.
Your kidding right ? "Connally is not exactly an expert witness on this sort of thing" . Connally was in the limo and was shot by the assassin(s) . Have much better of a witness could you ask for ? Both him and his wife sitting next to him stated that it was different shots that struck JFK and Connally . And yet you choose to just flatly disregard their statements ? The Zapruder film absolutely does not contradict both of their opinions . Kennedy is clearly struck in the throat as the limo comes back into vision from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign . Connally is calmly looking around to see what the commotion is about . Then , several seconds later , he is hit . Its clear as day for anyone to see and exactly as the Connally's described it .
BlackLight said :
Nothing was left to chance. Except why, if Oswald needed to be silenced to prevent the truth from coming out, did they not need to silence the driver? Bill Greer would live another 22 years before dying of cancer.
How can you possibly compare the two situations ? Oswald was killed because he was set up as a patsy to take the fall for the crime . He was silenced so he couldn't talk and implicate the true guilty parties . At the very least , the limo driver was guilty of failing miserably in his duty to protect the president . At worst , he was involved in the conspiracy to kill JFK . Just look at the Zapruder film . The shots ring out , JFK is obviously hit , clutching his throat with both hands , the driver looks back at him and takes no action . The limo SLOWS DOWN and comes to almost a complete stop . The driver looks back at JFK a second time and stares at him for a few seconds as the shots are ringing out . Finally when Kennedy is fatally wounded in the head , the driver ducks and finally speeds off . Kennedy was a sitting duck and Greer was at the wheel controlling the car . Like I said . Greer was either completely incompetent as a Secret Service agent or he knew exactly what was going to happen and played his role to perfection . Either way , you cannot compare silencing Oswald with silencing Greer .Your comparing apples to oranges . Oswald was exactly what he said he was . A patsy . He had to be killed for the coup to be successful .
Connally is not exactly an expert witness on this sort of thing. In any case, the Zapruder film contradicts his opinion. His reaction and JFK's reaction to being shot happen at virtually the same time (with perhaps a few frames difference.
Your kidding right ? "Connally is not exactly an expert witness on this sort of thing" . Connally was in the limo and was shot by the assassin(s) . Have much better of a witness could you ask for ? Both him and his wife sitting next to him stated that it was different shots that struck JFK and Connally . And yet you choose to just flatly disregard their statements ? The Zapruder film absolutely does not contradict both of their opinions . Kennedy is clearly struck in the throat as the limo comes back into vision from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign . Connally is calmly looking around to see what the commotion is about . Then , several seconds later , he is hit . Its clear as day for anyone to see and exactly as the Connally's described it .
BlackLight said :
Nothing was left to chance. Except why, if Oswald needed to be silenced to prevent the truth from coming out, did they not need to silence the driver? Bill Greer would live another 22 years before dying of cancer.
How can you possibly compare the two situations ? Oswald was killed because he was set up as a patsy to take the fall for the crime . He was silenced so he couldn't talk and implicate the true guilty parties . At the very least , the limo driver was guilty of failing miserably in his duty to protect the president . At worst , he was involved in the conspiracy to kill JFK . Just look at the Zapruder film . The shots ring out , JFK is obviously hit , clutching his throat with both hands , the driver looks back at him and takes no action . The limo SLOWS DOWN and comes to almost a complete stop . The driver looks back at JFK a second time and stares at him for a few seconds as the shots are ringing out . Finally when Kennedy is fatally wounded in the head , the driver ducks and finally speeds off . Kennedy was a sitting duck and Greer was at the wheel controlling the car . Like I said . Greer was either completely incompetent as a Secret Service agent or he knew exactly what was going to happen and played his role to perfection . Either way , you cannot compare silencing Oswald with silencing Greer .Your comparing apples to oranges . Oswald was exactly what he said he was . A patsy . He had to be killed for the coup to be successful .
Christ...Oswald was not a patsy. He was an assassin, nothing more, nothing less. If more than one person knows a secret, it isn't a secret.
Impossible number of witnesses and people with apparent knowledge of assassination details died between 1964 and 1977, many under strange circumstances. Roselli, Giancana, deMohrenschildt all died before testifying before the House Committee between 1975-77. As well as several company men.
Your kidding right ? "Connally is not exactly an expert witness on this sort of thing" . Connally was in the limo and was shot by the assassin(s) . Have much better of a witness could you ask for ? Both him and his wife sitting next to him stated that it was different shots that struck JFK and Connally . And yet you choose to just flatly disregard their statements ? The Zapruder film absolutely does not contradict both of their opinions . Kennedy is clearly struck in the throat as the limo comes back into vision from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign . Connally is calmly looking around to see what the commotion is about . Then , several seconds later , he is hit . Its clear as day for anyone to see and exactly as the Connally's described it
.
Connally reacts to being shot at virtually the same instant JFK gets hit in the back with the first bullet. That's what's clear as day.
BlackLight said :
Nothing was left to chance. Except why, if Oswald needed to be silenced to prevent the truth from coming out, did they not need to silence the driver? Bill Greer would live another 22 years before dying of cancer.
Quote:
How can you possibly compare the two situations ? Oswald was killed because he was set up as a patsy to take the fall for the crime . He was silenced so he couldn't talk and implicate the true guilty parties . At the very least , the limo driver was guilty of failing miserably in his duty to protect the president . At worst , he was involved in the conspiracy to kill JFK . Just look at the Zapruder film . The shots ring out , JFK is obviously hit , clutching his throat with both hands , the driver looks back at him and takes no action . The limo SLOWS DOWN and comes to almost a complete stop . The driver looks back at JFK a second time and stares at him for a few seconds as the shots are ringing out . Finally when Kennedy is fatally wounded in the head , the driver ducks and finally speeds off . Kennedy was a sitting duck and Greer was at the wheel controlling the car . Like I said . Greer was either completely incompetent as a Secret Service agent or he knew exactly what was going to happen and played his role to perfection . Either way , you cannot compare silencing Oswald with silencing Greer .Your comparing apples to oranges . Oswald was exactly what he said he was . A patsy . He had to be killed for the coup to be successful .
Hey, don't get mad at me. You're the one who placed the limo driver in the conspiracy where, according to you, "nothing was left to chance." Surely, if there was a grand conspiracy to murder the President in broad daylight, in order to "guarantee success," the limo driver would be in on it. He'd have to be, right?
Connally reacts to being shot at virtually the same instant JFK gets hit in the back with the first bullet. That's what's clear as day.
Seriously , clear as day ? Take a closer look at the Zapruder film in this link with a blow by blow description given by Connally . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSzGCKVGlOU
Now tell me that Connally is struck by the same bullet that hits JFK in the throat . It is obvious that JFK is in distress as the limo comes into vision while Connally is casually looking around over his shoulder Connally describes it exactly as it happened and his wife gives the same account of the shooting . Seconds pass before Connally reacts to being shot . As a matter of fact , Connally reacts to being shot much closer to the time that JFK is struck in the head than the time of the throat wound . This FACT blows the single bullet theory out of the water .
Blacklight said :
Hey, don't get mad at me. You're the one who placed the limo driver in the conspiracy where, according to you, "nothing was left to chance." Surely, if there was a grand conspiracy to murder the President in broad daylight, in order to "guarantee success," the limo driver would be in on it. He'd have to be, right?
First of all , I'm not mad at you or anyone else here . But don't put words into my mouth . I stated above very clearly that either the limo driver was completely incompetent carrying out his duty to protect the president OR he had advanced knowledge of the assassination . His actions were BLATANTLY suspicious at the very least .
Christ...Oswald was not a patsy. He was an assassin, nothing more, nothing less.
Oswald was not the simple lone nut assassin the Warren Report and media makes him out to be . At the very least , he had been under CIA and FBI surveillance for years before the assassination .
Why did J Edgar Hoover say on Nov. 24 , just two days after JFK was killed that the American public had to be "CONVINCED" that Oswald was the assassin ? This was just two days after JFK was killed . How complete of an investigation could have been done by then . The Warren Commission report would still be many months away , yet just two days after the murder of the president , the head of the FBI makes the incredible statement that the American public needed to be "convinced" of Oswalds guilt .
Seriously , clear as day ? Take a closer look at the Zapruder film in this link with a blow by blow description given by Connally . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSzGCKVGlOU
Now tell me that Connally is struck by the same bullet that hits JFK in the throat . It is obvious that JFK is in distress as the limo comes into vision while Connally is casually looking around over his shoulder Connally describes it exactly as it happened and his wife gives the same account of the shooting . Seconds pass before Connally reacts to being shot . As a matter of fact , Connally reacts to being shot much closer to the time that JFK is struck in the head than the time of the throat wound . This FACT blows the single bullet theory out of the water .
Victims of trauma are notoriously unreliable witnesses. The video is enough for me. The bullet which struck Connally went through his back and destroyed his right wrist. At virtually the same moment JFK is hit with the first shot through his back, Connally appears to jolt in his seat, then looks in obvious distress, turned to his right, and appears to be clutching his wrist to his chest (approximately at the location of his chest's exit wound).
Connally can recall it however he likes, but it simply doesn't match up with the film evidence of the event.
Quote:
First of all , I'm not mad at you or anyone else here . But don't put words into my mouth . I stated above very clearly that either the limo driver was completely incompetent carrying out his duty to protect the president OR he had advanced knowledge of the assassination . His actions were BLATANTLY suspicious at the very least .
Again - your words (emphasis mine):
Quote:
If you look closely at the Zapruder film , you will notice that as the shooting starts , the limo slows down significantly and almost comes to a complete stop as the shots ring out . The driver even looks back at JFK not once but twice and stares at JFK until he is fatally hit in the head . Then the limo finally speeds off . It was like shooting fish in a barrel . The president never had a chance . The shooters had to be guaranteed complete success . Nothing was left to chance .
Now you want to introduce the possibility that the driver was simply incompetent, but don't pretend that was the impression you were trying to make in the first place. And if you posit a grand conspiracy where "(T)he shooters had to be guaranteed complete success" and "(N)othing was left to chance," then the driver of the President's limousine would have to be in on it, would he not? You can't simply rely on the hope that the driver will freeze up at the critical moment, and give the shooter(s) the best possible opportunity to do finish the job. That would leaving a critical piece of the operation to chance. There's no way that Bill Greer could simply be guilty of doing a terrible job, right?
And the next question practically asks itself - if Oswald was murdered to protect the truly guilty parties from being exposed, why wasn't Bill Greer murdered for the same reasons?
Victims of trauma are notoriously unreliable witnesses.
Oh really . What about his wife . She was sitting right next to him and recalled the events exactly the same way Governor Connally did . She suffered no gunshot wound whatsoever and described the events exactly the same way that he did . Are you going to just ignore another eyewitness that was in the limo sitting right next to her husband that day ?
Blacklight said :
Connally can recall it however he likes
Thats nice of you considering he was there that day and witnessed the events as they took place and you were not . Sorry , but I'll take the word of eyewitnesses over yours .
Blacklight said :
The video is enough for me.
The video is enough for anyone that looks at it with an open mind to determine that Connally certainly WAS NOT struck by the same shot that hit JFK in the throat . You don't suffer the trauma that the Governor did and casually look over your shoulder to see where the noise came from , only to finally react to being shot many seconds later .
Blacklight said :
Now you want to introduce the possibility that the driver was simply incompetent, but don't pretend that was the impression you were trying to make in the first place.
Everything I said in that statement your quoting was exactly how the limo driver acted during the shooting . He turned around and stared at JFK during the shooting without taking evasive action until Kennedys head was blown off . I said nothing that wasn't accurate in the comment that your quoting . Nowhere in that statement did I say Greer was positively involved . Once again , your seeing things that aren't there and putting words in my mouth . Which is something that someone does that cannot make an argument themselves . Now , if you want accuracy and to see exactly what I said about Greer , perhaps you should have continued reading where I said ...
" Greer was either completely incompetent as a secret service agent or he knew exactly what was going to happen and played his role to perfection . " I also said , "At the very least the limo driver was guilty of failing miserably in his duty to protect the president . At worst , the limo driver he was involved in the conspiracy to kill JFK ."
So you see , your being selective again . I am not just now trying to introduce the idea that the driver may or may not have been involved . I wrote that in my original comment but you chose to ignore my complete comment , cherry picking what I said . I gave Greer the benefit of the doubt saying he may simply have been incompetent . Nowhere do I say he was definitely involved . So don't lie about what I said just because you aren't capable of making your own argument . Its right there in black and white for anyone to see . But many people , myself included view his actions , or lack of them , as extremely suspect .
Blacklight said :
And the next question practically asks itself - if Oswald was murdered to protect the truly guilty parties from being exposed, why wasn't Bill Greer murdered for the same reasons?
Your kidding right ? You asked the exact same question earlier and I answered it . I said ...
"How can you possibly compare the two situations ? Oswald was killed because he was set up as a patsy to take the fall for the crime . He was silenced so he couldn't talk and implicate the true guilty parties . Either way , you cannot compare silencing Oswald with silencing Greer .Your comparing apples to oranges . Oswald was exactly what he said he was . A patsy . He had to be killed for the coup to be successful ."
Is it really necessary for me to repeat this . Comparing silencing Oswald to silencing Greer is Apples to Oranges . Two totally different situations . Oswald was framed for the murder . Greer was not .
You really should work on your reading comprehension . Please don't ask me to repeat myself any more just because your shallow mind cannot comprehend .
Maybe though, but lots of blood in that area
Now the guy in the grassy knoll, he had to be a expert
Yes I think he lives.
There were three shots. The president could have survived the first which entered his right chest posteriorly and exited through the knot in his tie, essentially doing a tracheostomy on him. Blood loss probably would not have been an issue as he got to Parkland in minutes and even if he had a one sided pneumothorax, quick work could have dealt with it. The second shot splattered the pavement and hit nothing else. The third shot is the issue. It hit the right occipito-parietal portion of his head and exploded it. It was NOT survivable.
The Warren Commission report of the "pristine" or "magic" bullet as it was called is impossible according to the rules of bullet trajectory and physics. A bullet was found on a stretcher at Parkland (not in the area of the ER) which is referred to as the "pristine" bullet (Exhibit 393) Much about 393 makes the Warren theory (proposed by Arlen Spector, the commission's attorney and later a US Senator) impossible (direction, trajectory, slope, missing metal particles, and other issues regarding skull bone fragments etc.) Spector proposed it as being the first shot which he also said did a series of tricks and turns as it wounded Connally after hitting JFK, landing in the governor's pants cuff and then on that stretcher where it was discovered. Bullets are not that smart and they must obey the laws of physics. While I believe that Oswald WAS the assassin, I cannot accept the explanation of 393 in the Warren report.
If you want to read something interesting get a book by Bonar Menninger (very well known book-later a TV presentation) entitled either "Mortal Error" or perhaps "Fatal Error" (I'm not sure which is right). While I cannot endorse all of what it concludes, it WILL give you something to think about and will interest you if you have JFK assassination theory interest.
If you look closely at the Zapruder film , you will notice that as the shooting starts , the limo slows down significantly and almost comes to a complete stop as the shots ring out . The driver even looks back at JFK not once but twice and stares at JFK until he is fatally hit in the head . Then the limo finally speeds off . It was like shooting fish in a barrel . The president never had a chance . The shooters had to be guaranteed complete success . Nothing was left to chance . Oswald was likely working for the intelligence community and he was silenced before the truth could come out . Jack Ruby , when being questioned by the Warren Commission , requested to be taken out of Dallas to Washington , so he could be protected and tell the truth about why he silenced Oswald . His shooting of Oswald had nothing to do with wanting to spare Mrs. Kennedy having to go through Oswalds trial .
JFK was a northern liberal president that had made many conservative enemies in his few short years in office . From his refusal to invade Cuba to wanting get us out of Vietnam he was hated by the military industrial complex .
It should say something that only a small percentage of the documents that were supposed to be released last month were actually released . The law was passed in 1992 that they should have been made public by Oct. 26 . The CIA had a full 25 years to prepare to release the records and make any exceptions that were related to "national security" , yet the most important records have been withheld once again .
54 years and counting .
Connally is not exactly an expert witness on this sort of thing. In any case, the Zapruder film contradicts his opinion. His reaction and JFK's reaction to being shot happen at virtually the same time (with perhaps a few frames difference.
Nothing was left to chance. Except why, if Oswald needed to be silenced to prevent the truth from coming out, did they not need to silence the driver? Bill Greer would live another 22 years before dying of cancer.
All of these data are forensically critically important and are related along with much other data too numerous to cite. I agree that the Warren Commission explanation is ballistics-wise impossible.
I have been in this field for many years and agree that much of what has been bantered about is nonsense scientifically but this is not the place for a discussion of amateur theories. I can say much more and have done so elsewhere in discussions at professional forensic meetings. I question the expertise of many of those posting theories and opinions here.
All of these data are forensically critically important and are related along with much other data too numerous to cite. I agree that the Warren Commission explanation is ballistics-wise impossible.
I have been in this field for many years and agree that much of what has been bantered about is nonsense scientifically but this is not the place for a discussion of amateur theories. I can say much more and have done so elsewhere in discussions at professional forensic meetings. I question the expertise of many of those posting theories and opinions here.
And that straight path can be drawn right back to the 6th floor window where Oswald was hanging out.
But I guess the continued disbelief makes for conversation...
Connally is not exactly an expert witness on this sort of thing. In any case, the Zapruder film contradicts his opinion. His reaction and JFK's reaction to being shot happen at virtually the same time (with perhaps a few frames difference.
Your kidding right ? "Connally is not exactly an expert witness on this sort of thing" . Connally was in the limo and was shot by the assassin(s) . Have much better of a witness could you ask for ? Both him and his wife sitting next to him stated that it was different shots that struck JFK and Connally . And yet you choose to just flatly disregard their statements ? The Zapruder film absolutely does not contradict both of their opinions . Kennedy is clearly struck in the throat as the limo comes back into vision from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign . Connally is calmly looking around to see what the commotion is about . Then , several seconds later , he is hit . Its clear as day for anyone to see and exactly as the Connally's described it .
BlackLight said :
Nothing was left to chance. Except why, if Oswald needed to be silenced to prevent the truth from coming out, did they not need to silence the driver? Bill Greer would live another 22 years before dying of cancer.
How can you possibly compare the two situations ? Oswald was killed because he was set up as a patsy to take the fall for the crime . He was silenced so he couldn't talk and implicate the true guilty parties . At the very least , the limo driver was guilty of failing miserably in his duty to protect the president . At worst , he was involved in the conspiracy to kill JFK . Just look at the Zapruder film . The shots ring out , JFK is obviously hit , clutching his throat with both hands , the driver looks back at him and takes no action . The limo SLOWS DOWN and comes to almost a complete stop . The driver looks back at JFK a second time and stares at him for a few seconds as the shots are ringing out . Finally when Kennedy is fatally wounded in the head , the driver ducks and finally speeds off . Kennedy was a sitting duck and Greer was at the wheel controlling the car . Like I said . Greer was either completely incompetent as a Secret Service agent or he knew exactly what was going to happen and played his role to perfection . Either way , you cannot compare silencing Oswald with silencing Greer .Your comparing apples to oranges . Oswald was exactly what he said he was . A patsy . He had to be killed for the coup to be successful .
Connally is not exactly an expert witness on this sort of thing. In any case, the Zapruder film contradicts his opinion. His reaction and JFK's reaction to being shot happen at virtually the same time (with perhaps a few frames difference.
Your kidding right ? "Connally is not exactly an expert witness on this sort of thing" . Connally was in the limo and was shot by the assassin(s) . Have much better of a witness could you ask for ? Both him and his wife sitting next to him stated that it was different shots that struck JFK and Connally . And yet you choose to just flatly disregard their statements ? The Zapruder film absolutely does not contradict both of their opinions . Kennedy is clearly struck in the throat as the limo comes back into vision from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign . Connally is calmly looking around to see what the commotion is about . Then , several seconds later , he is hit . Its clear as day for anyone to see and exactly as the Connally's described it .
BlackLight said :
Nothing was left to chance. Except why, if Oswald needed to be silenced to prevent the truth from coming out, did they not need to silence the driver? Bill Greer would live another 22 years before dying of cancer.
How can you possibly compare the two situations ? Oswald was killed because he was set up as a patsy to take the fall for the crime . He was silenced so he couldn't talk and implicate the true guilty parties . At the very least , the limo driver was guilty of failing miserably in his duty to protect the president . At worst , he was involved in the conspiracy to kill JFK . Just look at the Zapruder film . The shots ring out , JFK is obviously hit , clutching his throat with both hands , the driver looks back at him and takes no action . The limo SLOWS DOWN and comes to almost a complete stop . The driver looks back at JFK a second time and stares at him for a few seconds as the shots are ringing out . Finally when Kennedy is fatally wounded in the head , the driver ducks and finally speeds off . Kennedy was a sitting duck and Greer was at the wheel controlling the car . Like I said . Greer was either completely incompetent as a Secret Service agent or he knew exactly what was going to happen and played his role to perfection . Either way , you cannot compare silencing Oswald with silencing Greer .Your comparing apples to oranges . Oswald was exactly what he said he was . A patsy . He had to be killed for the coup to be successful .
Christ...Oswald was not a patsy. He was an assassin, nothing more, nothing less. If more than one person knows a secret, it isn't a secret.
Your kidding right ? "Connally is not exactly an expert witness on this sort of thing" . Connally was in the limo and was shot by the assassin(s) . Have much better of a witness could you ask for ? Both him and his wife sitting next to him stated that it was different shots that struck JFK and Connally . And yet you choose to just flatly disregard their statements ? The Zapruder film absolutely does not contradict both of their opinions . Kennedy is clearly struck in the throat as the limo comes back into vision from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign . Connally is calmly looking around to see what the commotion is about . Then , several seconds later , he is hit . Its clear as day for anyone to see and exactly as the Connally's described it
Connally reacts to being shot at virtually the same instant JFK gets hit in the back with the first bullet. That's what's clear as day.
BlackLight said :
Nothing was left to chance. Except why, if Oswald needed to be silenced to prevent the truth from coming out, did they not need to silence the driver? Bill Greer would live another 22 years before dying of cancer.
Hey, don't get mad at me. You're the one who placed the limo driver in the conspiracy where, according to you, "nothing was left to chance." Surely, if there was a grand conspiracy to murder the President in broad daylight, in order to "guarantee success," the limo driver would be in on it. He'd have to be, right?
Connally reacts to being shot at virtually the same instant JFK gets hit in the back with the first bullet. That's what's clear as day.
Seriously , clear as day ? Take a closer look at the Zapruder film in this link with a blow by blow description given by Connally . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSzGCKVGlOU
Now tell me that Connally is struck by the same bullet that hits JFK in the throat . It is obvious that JFK is in distress as the limo comes into vision while Connally is casually looking around over his shoulder Connally describes it exactly as it happened and his wife gives the same account of the shooting . Seconds pass before Connally reacts to being shot . As a matter of fact , Connally reacts to being shot much closer to the time that JFK is struck in the head than the time of the throat wound . This FACT blows the single bullet theory out of the water .
Blacklight said :
Hey, don't get mad at me. You're the one who placed the limo driver in the conspiracy where, according to you, "nothing was left to chance." Surely, if there was a grand conspiracy to murder the President in broad daylight, in order to "guarantee success," the limo driver would be in on it. He'd have to be, right?
First of all , I'm not mad at you or anyone else here . But don't put words into my mouth . I stated above very clearly that either the limo driver was completely incompetent carrying out his duty to protect the president OR he had advanced knowledge of the assassination . His actions were BLATANTLY suspicious at the very least .
Christ...Oswald was not a patsy. He was an assassin, nothing more, nothing less.
Oswald was not the simple lone nut assassin the Warren Report and media makes him out to be . At the very least , he had been under CIA and FBI surveillance for years before the assassination .
Why did J Edgar Hoover say on Nov. 24 , just two days after JFK was killed that the American public had to be "CONVINCED" that Oswald was the assassin ? This was just two days after JFK was killed . How complete of an investigation could have been done by then . The Warren Commission report would still be many months away , yet just two days after the murder of the president , the head of the FBI makes the incredible statement that the American public needed to be "convinced" of Oswalds guilt .
Seriously , clear as day ? Take a closer look at the Zapruder film in this link with a blow by blow description given by Connally . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSzGCKVGlOU
Now tell me that Connally is struck by the same bullet that hits JFK in the throat . It is obvious that JFK is in distress as the limo comes into vision while Connally is casually looking around over his shoulder Connally describes it exactly as it happened and his wife gives the same account of the shooting . Seconds pass before Connally reacts to being shot . As a matter of fact , Connally reacts to being shot much closer to the time that JFK is struck in the head than the time of the throat wound . This FACT blows the single bullet theory out of the water .
Victims of trauma are notoriously unreliable witnesses. The video is enough for me. The bullet which struck Connally went through his back and destroyed his right wrist. At virtually the same moment JFK is hit with the first shot through his back, Connally appears to jolt in his seat, then looks in obvious distress, turned to his right, and appears to be clutching his wrist to his chest (approximately at the location of his chest's exit wound).
Connally can recall it however he likes, but it simply doesn't match up with the film evidence of the event.
Again - your words (emphasis mine):
Now you want to introduce the possibility that the driver was simply incompetent, but don't pretend that was the impression you were trying to make in the first place. And if you posit a grand conspiracy where "(T)he shooters had to be guaranteed complete success" and "(N)othing was left to chance," then the driver of the President's limousine would have to be in on it, would he not? You can't simply rely on the hope that the driver will freeze up at the critical moment, and give the shooter(s) the best possible opportunity to do finish the job. That would leaving a critical piece of the operation to chance. There's no way that Bill Greer could simply be guilty of doing a terrible job, right?
And the next question practically asks itself - if Oswald was murdered to protect the truly guilty parties from being exposed, why wasn't Bill Greer murdered for the same reasons?
Victims of trauma are notoriously unreliable witnesses.
Oh really . What about his wife . She was sitting right next to him and recalled the events exactly the same way Governor Connally did . She suffered no gunshot wound whatsoever and described the events exactly the same way that he did . Are you going to just ignore another eyewitness that was in the limo sitting right next to her husband that day ?
Blacklight said :
Connally can recall it however he likes
Thats nice of you considering he was there that day and witnessed the events as they took place and you were not . Sorry , but I'll take the word of eyewitnesses over yours .
Blacklight said :
The video is enough for me.
The video is enough for anyone that looks at it with an open mind to determine that Connally certainly WAS NOT struck by the same shot that hit JFK in the throat . You don't suffer the trauma that the Governor did and casually look over your shoulder to see where the noise came from , only to finally react to being shot many seconds later .
Blacklight said :
Now you want to introduce the possibility that the driver was simply incompetent, but don't pretend that was the impression you were trying to make in the first place.
Everything I said in that statement your quoting was exactly how the limo driver acted during the shooting . He turned around and stared at JFK during the shooting without taking evasive action until Kennedys head was blown off . I said nothing that wasn't accurate in the comment that your quoting . Nowhere in that statement did I say Greer was positively involved . Once again , your seeing things that aren't there and putting words in my mouth . Which is something that someone does that cannot make an argument themselves . Now , if you want accuracy and to see exactly what I said about Greer , perhaps you should have continued reading where I said ...
" Greer was either completely incompetent as a secret service agent or he knew exactly what was going to happen and played his role to perfection . " I also said , "At the very least the limo driver was guilty of failing miserably in his duty to protect the president . At worst , the limo driver he was involved in the conspiracy to kill JFK ."
So you see , your being selective again . I am not just now trying to introduce the idea that the driver may or may not have been involved . I wrote that in my original comment but you chose to ignore my complete comment , cherry picking what I said . I gave Greer the benefit of the doubt saying he may simply have been incompetent . Nowhere do I say he was definitely involved . So don't lie about what I said just because you aren't capable of making your own argument . Its right there in black and white for anyone to see . But many people , myself included view his actions , or lack of them , as extremely suspect .
Blacklight said :
And the next question practically asks itself - if Oswald was murdered to protect the truly guilty parties from being exposed, why wasn't Bill Greer murdered for the same reasons?
Your kidding right ? You asked the exact same question earlier and I answered it . I said ...
"How can you possibly compare the two situations ? Oswald was killed because he was set up as a patsy to take the fall for the crime . He was silenced so he couldn't talk and implicate the true guilty parties . Either way , you cannot compare silencing Oswald with silencing Greer .Your comparing apples to oranges . Oswald was exactly what he said he was . A patsy . He had to be killed for the coup to be successful ."
Is it really necessary for me to repeat this . Comparing silencing Oswald to silencing Greer is Apples to Oranges . Two totally different situations . Oswald was framed for the murder . Greer was not .
You really should work on your reading comprehension . Please don't ask me to repeat myself any more just because your shallow mind cannot comprehend .