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Giants need to root for the Niners to have the first pick

Milton : 11/23/2017 2:10 am
With it looking pretty unlikely that the Giants end up with the first pick, the best case scenario would be for the Niners to have the pick and also give Garoppolo a big money contract.

If that's the case, San Fran will be looking to deal away the first pick and recoup the early 2nd round pick they gave up for Garoppolo. That's where the Giants come in. They may not have the ammo that the Browns do when it comes to trading up, but it's possible that Rosen could scare off the Browns by saying he won't sign with them if they pull off the trade. The Giants could then give the Niners this year's #1 and #2 and next year's #2 (or next year's #1 if the Giants win enough games this year that they aren't drafting in the top five).

I know many of you (if not most of you) will be against such a move, saying the Giants are better off trading down and selecting players who can help Eli get the Giants back to the Super Bowl or taking one of the other highly regarded QBs. I understand that logic. It's the same logic that says the Giants would've been better off trading down with the Browns (I think that was the team) and selecting Roethlisberger with the later pick while at the same time picking up an extra early 2nd rounder.

And that's a fair argument, because it's possible the Giants could've been even more successful with Roethlisbeger behind center than they were with Eli. But when I look at and read about Darnold, Mayfield, and Allen, I see flaws in their game that may or may not be correctable. You can't just assume a player will develop. Rosen is just 20 years old and already his mechanics, his poise in the pocket, his ability to easily go through his progressions in a pro style offense, it's all there.

Nothing short of Injuries is going to stop Rosen from being an elite NFL QB. I can't say that about any of the others with the same confidence and in today's QB-driven league that's enough of a difference to want to sacrifice picks rather than pick up additional ones. And I don't believe for a second that it means sabotaging their chances at a return to the Super Bowl under Eli. It's not more draft picks that Eli needs from management, it's only a couple or three free agents and better luck in the health department. If OBJ hadn't hurt his ankle in the preseason, this season might have gone very differently.

The Giants are in the unique position of sitting a future Hall of Fame QB for two years while another future Hall of Fame QB leads the Giants to the Super Bowl (and three Super Bowl MVP performances should be enough to get him into the Hall despite not especially great career statistics). They should do everything they can to make it happen. Of course, if Cleveland should have the first pick, Rosen will be their choice and there isn't a trade offer imaginable that could change that (other than a declaration by Rosen that he will re-enter the draft in 2019 rather than sign with them).
From today/yesterday's San Francisco Chronicle...  
Milton : 11/23/2017 2:46 am : link
Quote:
“That guy, he throws the football as well as any college quarterback I’ve ever competed against or coached against,” said Cal head coach Justin Wilcox, whose team will have to try to find a way to slow the prolific passer Friday in Pasadena. “If he knows where he’s going, and you’re not putting any pressure on him, he can throw it as well as anybody. … He’s just a unique guy in terms of how he can throw the football.”

Quote:
“Through the past couple of years, he’s just progressed so much on the field as a player and around our team as a leader,” Mora said. “That’s demonstrated in what he says, how he conducts his business, his attitude in meetings, his work ethic in practice, his accountability to his teammates and his willingness to step up after a tough loss and accept responsibility. He’s just doing everything the right way. Everything.”

Quote:
“There’s no mistaking it: Josh Rosen has proven that he’s one of the best quarterbacks in the nation,” Stanford head coach David Shaw said. “He’s outstanding. He can make throws that other guys can’t make, and he’s been able to will them down the field.”

Quote:
Arizona head coach Rich Rodriguez, who has faced Rosen three times, said, “He seems to get bigger and stronger every year. He was phenomenal as a freshman, and he’s an even better player now. There’s nothing he doesn’t do well. … I’m glad he’s eligible for the draft after this. He needs to go now.”

Quote:
Says USC head coach Clay Helton, who has known Rosen since he played on a youth team with Helton’s son: “Being a quarterback coach by trade, it’s been very unique to be able to watch him grow up and become such a special player. It’s neat to be able to watch guys playing at the highest level, and Josh is doing that.”

Everybody Loves Rosen - ( New Window )
In my opinion  
illmatic : 11/23/2017 3:41 am : link
that's too much to give up for a guy who doesn't even seem like a 100% sure thing. The Giants second rounder will almost be like a late first. They're better off going elsewhere with the first round pick and being able to use their second rounder. Adding a pick next year is just madness. If it took all that to trade up a few spots for a QB, I'll pass. They better be the next Manning for that kind of deal.
RE: In my opinion  
Milton : 11/23/2017 3:54 am : link
In comment 13701882 illmatic said:
Quote:
that's too much to give up for a guy who doesn't even seem like a 100% sure thing. The Giants second rounder will almost be like a late first. They're better off going elsewhere with the first round pick and being able to use their second rounder. Adding a pick next year is just madness. If it took all that to trade up a few spots for a QB, I'll pass. They better be the next Manning for that kind of deal.
Other than his history of injuries, I think he's a better prospect than Manning was when he entered the draft.
Umber one  
joeinpa : 11/23/2017 7:10 am : link
Anyone who believes the team should build around Eli is nitbeing objective.

So I agree if Giants are in position to do so, they should make every effort to secure the next franchise quarterback.

But, I think Darnold and Allen might be that answer as well.

At this point the Giants could win a couple more games  
Rjanyg : 11/23/2017 7:35 am : link
And while I don't mind them selecting a QB next April, there are a few excellent players at the top that are non QB's that also intrigue me that might be All Pro for years. Nelson, Barkley and Chubb all are outstanding talents that can come in and make NYG a better team and all would start with Chubb being a rotational player initially.

Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield, Allen all seem to have a lot it talent with Rosen being the purest more pro ready if the group, but I think Darnold would be a better choice in terms of potential and growth. Eli will still be here at least 1 or 2 years so Darnold could grow and learn for a couple years.

If NYG stays at pick 3 Darnold could fall right to them or They get to choose between Barkley, Nelson, Chubb.

Stay put.
At this point the Giants could win a couple more games  
Rjanyg : 11/23/2017 7:35 am : link
And while I don't mind them selecting a QB next April, there are a few excellent players at the top that are non QB's that also intrigue me that might be All Pro for years. Nelson, Barkley and Chubb all are outstanding talents that can come in and make NYG a better team and all would start with Chubb being a rotational player initially.

Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield, Allen all seem to have a lot it talent with Rosen being the purest more pro ready if the group, but I think Darnold would be a better choice in terms of potential and growth. Eli will still be here at least 1 or 2 years so Darnold could grow and learn for a couple years.

If NYG stays at pick 3 Darnold could fall right to them or They get to choose between Barkley, Nelson, Chubb.

Stay put.
At this point the Giants could win a couple more games  
Rjanyg : 11/23/2017 7:37 am : link
And while I don't mind them selecting a QB next April, there are a few excellent players at the top that are non QB's that also intrigue me that might be All Pro for years. Nelson, Barkley and Chubb all are outstanding talents that can come in and make NYG a better team and all would start with Chubb being a rotational player initially.

Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield, Allen all seem to have a lot it talent with Rosen being the purest more pro ready if the group, but I think Darnold would be a better choice in terms of potential and growth. Eli will still be here at least 1 or 2 years so Darnold could grow and learn for a couple years.

If NYG stays at pick 3 Darnold could fall right to them or They get to choose between Barkley, Nelson, Chubb.

Stay put.
Having Garrapolo  
David B. : 11/23/2017 8:41 am : link
Does not automatically preclude SF from picking a QB.
RE: Having Garrapolo  
Carson53 : 11/23/2017 8:53 am : link
In comment 13701943 David B. said:
Quote:
Does not automatically preclude SF from picking a QB.
.

You're right it doesn't necessarily preclude them, but the odds are they get a deal done with Jimmy G.
As a worst case scenario, they can slap the franchise tag on him for a year, then watch how he performs.
That gives them a better feel, whether they want to hitch their wagons to him long term.
Darnold will be the better pro  
jtgiants : 11/23/2017 9:08 am : link
Rosen is good. I like him and think he will be good Darnold to me will be great. He does things you can't teach. If its me, go qb, its Darnold.
RE: Darnold will be the better pro  
Milton : 11/23/2017 9:25 am : link
In comment 13701962 jtgiants said:
Quote:
Rosen is good. I like him and think he will be good Darnold to me will be great. He does things you can't teach.
A QB being able to do things you can't teach isn't nearly as important as the QB being able to doing all the things you can teach. As Bill Parcells once said re: Hostetler, "I don't want to be known as a guy who coaches broken plays." Give me a QB who goes through his progressions with ease while the pocket is collapsing around him over the one who dances out of the pocket if his first read is covered and then does things you just can't teach.
RE: Having Garrapolo  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/23/2017 9:50 am : link
In comment 13701943 David B. said:
Quote:
Does not automatically preclude SF from picking a QB.

That's kind of silly, don't you think? They just gave up a 2nd round pick which will almost certainly land in the 33-35 range and will likely either franchise or sign JG to a long-term deal in the offseason. The chances of SF taking a QB at the top of the draft are incredibly remote. I'd put the odds at less than 1%.

That said, what is possible is that SF could trade out of their spot to a team looking for a QB, just like they did last year.
you need to be  
Dankbeerman : 11/23/2017 10:31 am : link
absolutley blown away by 1 of the qbs to move up and if you are you have to get to 1. Thats a lot to give up but again Eli was worth it we shall see about Rosen.

But also a call back to 2004 we could stay put and take Darnold or Allen and maybe fine as well.

Depends on how these guys grade out, and having Eli we dont have to have the guy thats ready day 1, could take Allen and develop him
Milton  
jtgiants : 11/23/2017 10:48 am : link
You do realize 9 out of 10 nfl scouts would take Darnold over Rosen. I like Rosen but his upside is less than darnold
I’m infatuated with Rosen  
BrianLeonard23 : 11/23/2017 11:00 am : link
And I would trade up to #1 to get him at any cost
Milton: 'unique position'?  
Big Blue Blogger : 11/23/2017 11:04 am : link
Quote:
The Giants are in the unique position of sitting a future Hall of Fame QB for two years while another future Hall of Fame QB leads the Giants to the Super Bowl.

Joe Montana and Steve Young say "Hi". So would Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers, if Corey Webster hadn't cut in.

Yeah - we know what you meant. It's highly unusual. It's also highly unlikely to happen here.

Anyway, my view is that trade-ups and trade-downs belong in completely separate discussions, because in principle they make sense in opposite scenarios: you trade up because you really want a particular player; you trade down because you don't. If the Giants absolutely love one of the QBs, and figure to miss out on him, they should explore trading up. But there's no way for us to know whether they have that kind of man-crush, except maybe in hindsight - and probably not even then, unless they actually pull the trigger on a trade.
Rosen’s injury history is troubling..  
Sean : 11/23/2017 11:04 am : link
I’d prefer Darnold- has the size, can extend & create plays. Also, Darnold likely can mask poor offensive line play more than Rosen.

With that said, the QB position cannot be forced. Eli is still in the 12-16 range in the NFL and he doesn’t keep us from winning.
The 2004 example only goes so far.  
Big Blue Blogger : 11/23/2017 11:18 am : link
It's easy to say the Giants could have traded down and picked Roethlisberger, because Pittsburgh ultimately took him at #11. You can even argue that the Giants could have traded down twice: with Cleveland at #7 (Winslow) and again with Houston at #10 (Hall). On its face, that's a plausible view, because the Browns weirdly gave up their second rounder to move up one spot, and the CB-hungry Texans settled for Dunta Robinson.

The problem is that we have no idea what the Steelers - or anyone else - might have done once the Giants started moving down. There's no telling where Rivers might have wound up, and we don't know what role the League office played in protecting the Chargers. We can't even assume San Diego would have picked Manning if the NYG trade hadn't been imminent. As much as I disliked the way Accorsi played his hand at that draft, his basic point is a pretty good one: Manning was his guy, and he wasn't going to risk losing him - even if the risk was small and the upside somewhat attractive.
Once you trade down multiple spots  
BrianLeonard23 : 11/23/2017 11:23 am : link
It’s out of your hands. Why risk someone else taking your guy, or someone trading up in between the spot you left and the spot you acquired to take your guy? That’s why I’m so big on going UP to #1 this year. Whoever they like the best and have the strongest conviction for, if they believe he’s the next franchise guy... you have to do whatever it takes to acquire him and leave nothing to chance.
Going to back the original post  
IIT : 11/23/2017 11:37 am : link
The Giants are going to be disappointed. The Browns will pick first so this all moot.

They will either have to sell the farm for number one overall or look elsewhere.
Darnold may not even come out this year  
PatersonPlank : 11/23/2017 11:40 am : link
Allen, Mayfield, and Jackson may last into round 2.

Its possible to get an OT (ND or UT guy), a G (ND guy), or Barkley, and still get Allen (for example) in Rd 2. Now that would be great, let Allen and Webb battle it out behind an improved line.
Really  
mitch300 : 11/23/2017 11:53 am : link
“If he knows where he’s going, and you’re not putting any pressure on him, he can throw it as well as anybody" well duh. Most QB's if you don't put pressure on them can throw the ball. Part of being a good NFL QB is being good under pressure.
RE: Milton: 'unique position'?  
Milton : 11/23/2017 11:53 am : link
In comment 13702032 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:


Quote:


The Giants are in the unique position of sitting a future Hall of Fame QB for two years while another future Hall of Fame QB leads the Giants to the Super Bowl.


Joe Montana and Steve Young say "Hi". So would Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers, if Corey Webster hadn't cut in.

Yeah - we know what you meant. It's highly unusual.
What I meant by unique is that it usually takes being an absolutely shitty team that is years away from being a contender for that team to be drafting in the top three. Favre and Rodgers is a better example than Montana and Young because at least Rodgers was a 1st round pick, but he was the 24th pick, not the first pick. The Niners lucked into Young in a trade after he had already disappointed with the Bucs (I think that was the year they drafted Testeverde).
RE: Once you trade down multiple spots  
adamg : 11/23/2017 12:09 pm : link
In comment 13702040 BrianLeonard23 said:
Quote:
It’s out of your hands. Why risk someone else taking your guy, or someone trading up in between the spot you left and the spot you acquired to take your guy? That’s why I’m so big on going UP to #1 this year. Whoever they like the best and have the strongest conviction for, if they believe he’s the next franchise guy... you have to do whatever it takes to acquire him and leave nothing to chance.


+1

Trading down isn't some sure science where you can say a guy will still be there.

I wouldn't mind a trade up for a QB. This is the year to do it.
Don't get your hopes up  
djm : 11/23/2017 12:23 pm : link
Giants are gonna win 1-2 more games this season. Skins are beatable. Dallas, zona and raiders are too. Giants will play hard and be rewarded by the sadistic football gods who want mcadoo retained.
RE: RE: In my opinion  
djm : 11/23/2017 12:26 pm : link
In comment 13701883 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13701882 illmatic said:


Quote:


that's too much to give up for a guy who doesn't even seem like a 100% sure thing. The Giants second rounder will almost be like a late first. They're better off going elsewhere with the first round pick and being able to use their second rounder. Adding a pick next year is just madness. If it took all that to trade up a few spots for a QB, I'll pass. They better be the next Manning for that kind of deal.

Other than his history of injuries, I think he's a better prospect than Manning was when he entered the draft.


I disagree there. Eli was as close to a sure thing as a qb prospect can be. He had all the attributes one can look for. Ok fine Rosen has a slightly better arm but Eli's arm was never in question and he had the pedigree and more productive collegiate career and it's not even close. Eli played in the sec and carried ole miss. Cmon now...
RE: Milton  
djm : 11/23/2017 12:27 pm : link
In comment 13702016 jtgiants said:
Quote:
You do realize 9 out of 10 nfl scouts would take Darnold over Rosen. I like Rosen but his upside is less than darnold


False. No way is the difference of opinion that stark. It's closer to 50-50.
RE: RE: Milton  
Milton : 11/23/2017 12:44 pm : link
In comment 13702079 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 13702016 jtgiants said:


Quote:


You do realize 9 out of 10 nfl scouts would take Darnold over Rosen. I like Rosen but his upside is less than darnold



False. No way is the difference of opinion that stark. It's closer to 50-50.
I think it was 9 out of 10 preferred Darnold going into this season. I'm guessing that by the time April rolls around it will be 9 out of 10 prefer Rosen. I don't recall having heard people use the expression "NFL throw" until people started using it regularly to describe Rosen's game.
I just hope this isn't a draft  
Simms11 : 11/23/2017 1:13 pm : link
like the Cedric Jones draft where quality fell off right before their pick!
IMO  
mrvax : 11/23/2017 2:07 pm : link
with every win from here out, the Giants could move down 2 slots in the draft. The price to move up for Rosen may become too much with all the needs this team has.
As bad as Jerry Reese nay be as a GM thank God you are not the GM!  
SterlingArcher : 11/23/2017 3:14 pm : link
What you propose is perhaps the dumbest thing I have heard on this site in months!
RE: As bad as Jerry Reese nay be as a GM thank God you are not the GM!  
Milton : 11/23/2017 5:10 pm : link
In comment 13702154 SterlingArcher said:
Quote:
What you propose is perhaps the dumbest thing I have heard on this site in months!
You're welcome!
RE: As bad as Jerry Reese nay be as a GM thank God you are not the GM!  
Milton : 11/23/2017 5:17 pm : link
In comment 13702154 SterlingArcher said:
Quote:
What you propose is perhaps the dumbest thing I have heard on this site in months!
p.s.--Imagine if it was March of 2004 and someone was advocating for the Giants to give up 1st and 3rd round picks that year and 1st and 5th round picks the following year just to move up three spots so they could draft Eli Manning (at a time when it seemed they had much bigger problems than Kerry Collins). Would you have said that was the dumbest thing you'd heard in months?
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