it's consecutive starts, not "consecutive wins" or any stat that has to do with the success of the team or even the performance of the player. sure, it makes Eli an ironman, but it is not a success metric (see the record of 110-100).
if anyone WITHIN the organization is taking it into account they're nuts.
BTW, if they keep the streak going through the end of next year it is possible Eli will retire with a LOSING RECORD! Not sure why anyone would want that.
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I went to work sick on Tuesday and Wednesday this week because I haven't missed a day this year and I want to keep that zero next to my name.
Is taking pride in dedication and consistency as it relates to your job that difficult to understand?
The streak says a lot about Eli and I appreciate and applaud it.
Exactly. In 2007 when he was supposed to miss 4-6 weeks with a separated shoulder, he showed up.
In the 2011 NFC Championship game where he dropped back 58 times against a San Fran defense that was absolutely destroying him, he played with the flu.
And who knows how many other times we don't know about. Whiny, unappreciative, entitled brats. "'We' need to see Webb!" No you don't. If the coaching staff and front office don't, you don't either.
We not only need to see him in games, he need to practice with the first team all week. We need to see multiple games and if he progresses, how the team responds. The fact that the coaching staff doesn't want more information about the QB they drafted in the third, it is another indictment of them. I love Eli, I will miss when he is gone. People who do not appreciate having as much information as possible when they about to make a very important decision are just seriously fucking stupid.
The GM who drafted him said he was a project that needed to sit for a couple of years and learn the pro game.
The coaching staff has said as recently as last week that he's not ready, he's doing a good job of learning, and they are in no rush to throw him out there.
These are the facts.
Yet I'm the stupid one for acknowledging them, not the people starting 3 to 4 Webb threads every couple of days, and the people that come on here and say Webb "needs" to be out there, "needs" to be taking first team reps all week in practice, and "needs" to start over Eli.
It really has nothing to do with Eli, quite honestly. It has to do with a lot of you not being able to acknowledge reality. That's where the entitlement aspect comes into play.
Saying you need to see Webb over and over and over again doesn't change the facts that are slapping you in the face above.
But it speaks volumes that the coaching staff isn't even doing that.
Hate to break it to you, but....
1. Eli Manning will be the week 1 starter for the Giants next year barring catastrophic injury. He's not getting cut or traded.
2. Davis Webb will not stop the Giants from taking a QB in Round 1 if a guy they covet is available, no matter what Davis Webb does or doesn't show them.
The sooner some of you accept that reality, the more productive some of these discussions can become.
You mean, making Eli Manning the second highest in the history of the pro football in terms of total pay checks collected is not enough, and we somehow deserves less?
If not, what does your statement of "he has given us more than we deserve" mean? Unless your don't agree that we the fans are the ones who paid him those money.
Hate to break it to you, but....
1. Eli Manning will be the week 1 starter for the Giants next year barring catastrophic injury. He's not getting cut or traded.
2. Davis Webb will not stop the Giants from taking a QB in Round 1 if a guy they covet is available, no matter what Davis Webb does or doesn't show them.
The sooner some of you accept that reality, the more productive some of these discussions can become.
This is true and I agree with you, but do you think if the Redskins knew then what they know now they still draft RG3 (and trade a kings ransom to do it) in the 1st when Cousins is the better NFL QB - and they got him in the 4th (of course in that example they were in the same draft so it was impossible to know but you get the point)?
It's impossible for anyone to learn at this point if Webb is in fact an outlier 3rd round franchise QB. Odds are against it based on history and circumstances of the NYG right now are not such that they'll find out (OL, WR's, RB's).
but it wouldn't hurt to get the guy some snaps, maybe speed along the process of finding out.
All it took was one Matt Flynn start in week 17 and he got a $20M deal (if he wasn't a FA GB would have cleaned up), all it took was 1.5 games of Jacoby Brissett and the Pats got a player drafted in the 1st round for him, all it took was one Rob Johnson start and the Bills traded a 1st and 4th round pick for him. Garroppolo in 1.5 starts got a 2nd round pick returned).
Not speaking for everyone, but that's the kind of "showcase" this type of season can be good for and maybe partly why people are clamoring for Webb, but given the state of the Giants OL, WR, and RB's probably not going to help that cause - whether Webb is ready or not.
After finishing his 14th pro season in a month, his career W-L record will be less than 10 games above .500.
So how can anyone disagree with the earlier remark that, outside of a few playoff weeks, Eli Manning, the #2 overall player in NFL history in terms of career earnings, has underperformed?
And please do let me know if you disagree with this: in those 8 plaoff weeks, if the Giants defense had been substituted with ANY of the other 31 NFL defenses from that season, the team would not have won --heck, would not have reached -- either of two Super Bowls, which now constitute 90, 95% of Eli Manning's entire career accomplishment.
Vastly underperformed.
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not this season. Obviously he's been poor this season.
After finishing his 14th pro season in a month, his career W-L record will be less than 10 games above .500.
So how can anyone disagree with the earlier remark that, outside of a few playoff weeks, Eli Manning, the #2 overall player in NFL history in terms of career earnings, has underperformed?
And please do let me know if you disagree with this: in those 8 plaoff weeks, if the Giants defense had been substituted with ANY of the other 31 NFL defenses from that season, the team would not have won --heck, would not have reached -- either of two Super Bowls, which now constitute 90, 95% of Eli Manning's entire career accomplishment.
Vastly underperformed.
Eli is not solely responsible for his team's record. I can go through the years and name games where his team let him down. 2008? His best WR shoots himself in the leg. 2009? CC Brown is your starting safety. How about 2010? Defense and special teams blow a 21 pt 4th quarter lead that would have assured us of winning the NFC East over the Eagles. 2012-2015, his offensive line starts to get old. 2016, he comes out in Green Bay throwing darts and his WRs can't catch them.
Here's some more facts -- the defense you laud so much for winning those playoff games, it gave up the lead in both Super Bowls. Without Eli Manning, that defense is not wearing the Super Bowl rings that they are currently wearing.
Some more facts, when you give Eli Manning a decent offensive line and a competent defense, you have a chance of winning football games.
I didn't, and don't, but the reality of the situation is that they are still in charge of making the decisions, whether we like them or not. I'd like to believe they won't be making the decisions next year.
Look, I know some people don't care for my tone around here lately, and I also know that people believe my opinion is formed on being an "Eli Apologist" (a term I have NEVER understood, being a fan of the team and player?)...
That said, whether you like them or not, most of my opinions are based on logic and are fairly reasonable, and I back them up. The opposite of a lot of shit that gets thrown around here as discussion. Like the plethora of "bench Eli", "trade Eli", "cut Eli" discussions going on. It's a waste of time because none of that is going to happen.
Same thing happened last year when I started questioning McAdoo's offense as early as last October, and got shouted down. Similar to how I've been shouted down this year in regards to Eli.
You don't like it, but what I have stated repeatedly is the most likely scenario. Eli will play next year at minimum, and most likely the rest of his contract, while we groom the next quarterback, whether it's Webb, or whether it's our 1st round draft pick.
1. It's the Mara's. They will not do Manning wrong after what's he's done for the franchise.
2. (probably the most important reason) A new coach can hedge his bets by having a valuable starting veteran QB. If the team gets it turned around quickly, you have a shot to win right away. But even if you don't and you're losing, you're next quarterback gets to learn from a very cerebral, professional HOF quarterback, and not be thrown to the wolves while things get figured out. Also, if things go poorly with Manning at QB, he can ultimately blame it on Manning and by himself more time by inserting the new QB that was sitting behind Manning.
3. The dead money hit next year would not be worth the void cutting Manning would leave. You get more value out of your money by keeping Manning and letting him play for the reason listed in #2, rather than just eating that much money.
Seeing what you have in your young QB's are what training camp battles are for. What we need to see is that the next guy is capable of starting at the number 2 position on the depth chart, and so we don't need to carry dead weight like Geno Smith on the depth chart. You have a legit young, talented #2, and then the clock starts ticking on Manning depending on performance.
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In comment 13704106 bceagle05 said:
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not this season. Obviously he's been poor this season.
After finishing his 14th pro season in a month, his career W-L record will be less than 10 games above .500.
So how can anyone disagree with the earlier remark that, outside of a few playoff weeks, Eli Manning, the #2 overall player in NFL history in terms of career earnings, has underperformed?
And please do let me know if you disagree with this: in those 8 plaoff weeks, if the Giants defense had been substituted with ANY of the other 31 NFL defenses from that season, the team would not have won --heck, would not have reached -- either of two Super Bowls, which now constitute 90, 95% of Eli Manning's entire career accomplishment.
Vastly underperformed.
Eli is not solely responsible for his team's record. I can go through the years and name games where his team let him down. 2008? His best WR shoots himself in the leg. 2009? CC Brown is your starting safety. How about 2010? Defense and special teams blow a 21 pt 4th quarter lead that would have assured us of winning the NFC East over the Eagles. 2012-2015, his offensive line starts to get old. 2016, he comes out in Green Bay throwing darts and his WRs can't catch them.
Here's some more facts -- the defense you laud so much for winning those playoff games, it gave up the lead in both Super Bowls. Without Eli Manning, that defense is not wearing the Super Bowl rings that they are currently wearing.
Some more facts, when you give Eli Manning a decent offensive line and a competent defense, you have a chance of winning football games.
Just so we're clear, Eli gets the credit for the success, but not the blame for the failures. Is that accurate?
And as LAXin points out, when you have the player who has been paid 2nd most in NFL history, and paid more than any single franchise has paid any single player in NFL history, sorry, but the "just give Eli this and that and this other thing and he'll be great" routine crosses over from being a fan to being an apologist.
Here's some more facts -- the defense you laud so much for winning those playoff games, it gave up the lead in both Super Bowls. Without Eli Manning, that defense is not wearing the Super Bowl rings that they are currently wearing.
Some more facts, when you give Eli Manning a decent offensive line and a competent defense, you have a chance of winning football games.
I am simply going to repeat two grand and salient facts, both aggregated over 14 years, and let them sink in: a W-L record of less than 10 games above .500, while accumulating the second most career earnings in the history of this sport.
And this: Eli's defense did not give up 20 points in any of his 8 playoff victories. This includes a second half at Dallas (after being tied at half-Ike) in which Eli's offense gained a total of 57 yards, includes giving up only 14 points to the greatest team (greatest offense, really) in NFL history in Super Bowl 42, and includes giving up only 17 points -- and scored 2, so a net of only 15 points -- against the best offense that season in Super Bowl 46.
And, finally, can anyone offer an example to counter this summary: starting from forcing a trade on his first day in the NFL, Eli Manning has always maximized his own interest in any actions he takes, or does not take. Not that there is anything wrong with that, and not that his actions or inactions did not carry other effects, but let us readily acknowledge such, and treat him accordingly, starting with rejecting the absurd show of gratitude "He has given us more than we deserve" remark that appeared at the top of this thread. Eli Manning has been treated extremely well by the franchise and the fans. We do not owe him anything. In fact, we deserve more.
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When did you become a big believer in the ability of this front office and staff in making prescient decisions on how to handle a roster and quarterback?
I didn't, and don't, but the reality of the situation is that they are still in charge of making the decisions, whether we like them or not. I'd like to believe they won't be making the decisions next year.
Look, I know some people don't care for my tone around here lately, and I also know that people believe my opinion is formed on being an "Eli Apologist" (a term I have NEVER understood, being a fan of the team and player?)...
That said, whether you like them or not, most of my opinions are based on logic and are fairly reasonable, and I back them up. The opposite of a lot of shit that gets thrown around here as discussion. Like the plethora of "bench Eli", "trade Eli", "cut Eli" discussions going on. It's a waste of time because none of that is going to happen.
Same thing happened last year when I started questioning McAdoo's offense as early as last October, and got shouted down. Similar to how I've been shouted down this year in regards to Eli.
You don't like it, but what I have stated repeatedly is the most likely scenario. Eli will play next year at minimum, and most likely the rest of his contract, while we groom the next quarterback, whether it's Webb, or whether it's our 1st round draft pick.
1. It's the Mara's. They will not do Manning wrong after what's he's done for the franchise.
2. (probably the most important reason) A new coach can hedge his bets by having a valuable starting veteran QB. If the team gets it turned around quickly, you have a shot to win right away. But even if you don't and you're losing, you're next quarterback gets to learn from a very cerebral, professional HOF quarterback, and not be thrown to the wolves while things get figured out. Also, if things go poorly with Manning at QB, he can ultimately blame it on Manning and by himself more time by inserting the new QB that was sitting behind Manning.
3. The dead money hit next year would not be worth the void cutting Manning would leave. You get more value out of your money by keeping Manning and letting him play for the reason listed in #2, rather than just eating that much money.
Seeing what you have in your young QB's are what training camp battles are for. What we need to see is that the next guy is capable of starting at the number 2 position on the depth chart, and so we don't need to carry dead weight like Geno Smith on the depth chart. You have a legit young, talented #2, and then the clock starts ticking on Manning depending on performance.
Britt - I actually couldn't agree more on a number of points.
Chief among them is the McAdoo offense is 1) a bad fit for Manning and 2) the system is just plain bad.
Practically I don't see a successful couple of years for Manning unless wholesale changes are made to personnel and the system. He's not the player who carried the team in 2011 in my view. But I agree I don't think the economics or logic support cutting Manning.
I also think benching Manning is bad for the perception and morale of the franchise, right now. But in a totally fucked season any reps for Webb are good reps. Even getting him the reps as the #2 during the week. McAdoo is a wimp. Coughlin in the same position would not have ran his mouth at the press conference and just would have promoted Webb to #2.
Honestly, I personally don't care about loyalty, or the notion of allegiance to the player. I want the clinical best thing for the team.
The worst thing for a lot of folks is Webb actually playing well. That's part of it I am sure,
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In comment 13704886 LAXin said:
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In comment 13704106 bceagle05 said:
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not this season. Obviously he's been poor this season.
After finishing his 14th pro season in a month, his career W-L record will be less than 10 games above .500.
So how can anyone disagree with the earlier remark that, outside of a few playoff weeks, Eli Manning, the #2 overall player in NFL history in terms of career earnings, has underperformed?
And please do let me know if you disagree with this: in those 8 plaoff weeks, if the Giants defense had been substituted with ANY of the other 31 NFL defenses from that season, the team would not have won --heck, would not have reached -- either of two Super Bowls, which now constitute 90, 95% of Eli Manning's entire career accomplishment.
Vastly underperformed.
Eli is not solely responsible for his team's record. I can go through the years and name games where his team let him down. 2008? His best WR shoots himself in the leg. 2009? CC Brown is your starting safety. How about 2010? Defense and special teams blow a 21 pt 4th quarter lead that would have assured us of winning the NFC East over the Eagles. 2012-2015, his offensive line starts to get old. 2016, he comes out in Green Bay throwing darts and his WRs can't catch them.
Here's some more facts -- the defense you laud so much for winning those playoff games, it gave up the lead in both Super Bowls. Without Eli Manning, that defense is not wearing the Super Bowl rings that they are currently wearing.
Some more facts, when you give Eli Manning a decent offensive line and a competent defense, you have a chance of winning football games.
Just so we're clear, Eli gets the credit for the success, but not the blame for the failures. Is that accurate?
And as LAXin points out, when you have the player who has been paid 2nd most in NFL history, and paid more than any single franchise has paid any single player in NFL history, sorry, but the "just give Eli this and that and this other thing and he'll be great" routine crosses over from being a fan to being an apologist.
I never said he is blameless. But what if I told you in May 2004 that the rookie our team just drafted will be a primary factor in two Supsr Bowl wins, will start every game since midway through rookie season, will never throw a teammate, coach, or management under the bus, will finish top 10 in NFL history in touchdown passes and passing yardage?
Eli Manning has his faults. He’s not very mobile. He’s not a very good thrower of screen passes. But overall, he has been a net positive for this franchise. But you guys want to look at this ragtag group of misfits and blame number 17 on a list of 30 things wrong with this team. You guys want to say he has underperformed over the course of his career? I find that so off that I question whether we’ve been watching the same sport.
There's virtually no one on this board who thinks Manning hasn't been a net positive, or has underperformed.
That doesn't mean his legacy insulates him from moving on too early rather than too late.
And it doesn't change the very defendable position that better quarterback play is the most efficient way to improve the fastest.
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Eli Manning has his faults. He’s not very mobile. He’s not a very good thrower of screen passes. But overall, he has been a net positive for this franchise. But you guys want to look at this ragtag group of misfits and blame number 17 on a list of 30 things wrong with this team. You guys want to say he has underperformed over the course of his career? I find that so off that I question whether we’ve been watching the same sport.
There's virtually no one on this board who thinks Manning hasn't been a net positive, or has underperformed.
That doesn't mean his legacy insulates him from moving on too early rather than too late.
And it doesn't change the very defendable position that better quarterback play is the most efficient way to improve the fastest.
You can’t put a Davis Webb or a Josh Rosen behind this line as currently constituted though. That would be asking to shell shock a young quarterback and potentially land us in even deeper water. Should we acquire a quarterback in the draft? Yes. But there are other issues to fix. Let Eli be the quarterback while those issues are addressed. Then, you give Webb or New Draft Pick a chance to hit the ground running.
None of them have been paid more. Eli has been paid more than any other player by a single franchise. And has only been surpassed by his own brother in total career earnings. That's not by accident.
If somebody came to you and said you're about to draft the 2nd highest paid player in NFL history in the future, but he's going to give you two championships in two runs for the ages, never miss a game, and finish Top 10 in every statistical category, would you sign up for that? Or would it not be worth it?
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If a quarterback makes it to his second and third contracts, he is going to rank very highly in career earnings in the NFL history books. Brady, Rodgers, Wilson, Roethlisberger, Flacco, Stafford are paid very handsomely too. Kirk Cousins is going to make a metric shit ton.
None of them have been paid more. Eli has been paid more than any other player by a single franchise. And has only been surpassed by his own brother in total career earnings. That's not by accident.
And why do you think the Lions gave Stafford 150 million plus? They are hoping and praying he can give them the success that Eli gave the Giants 10 and 6 years ago. When you win a Super Bowl as an NFL quarterback, you enter a different economic level. When you win 2 Super Bowls on the strength of two 4th quarter drives over the greatest team of our era, the money comes with it.
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Eli is not solely responsible for his team's record. I can go through the years and name games where his team let him down. 2008? His best WR shoots himself in the leg. 2009? CC Brown is your starting safety. How about 2010? Defense and special teams blow a 21 pt 4th quarter lead that would have assured us of winning the NFC East over the Eagles. 2012-2015, his offensive line starts to get old. 2016, he comes out in Green Bay throwing darts and his WRs can't catch them.
Here's some more facts -- the defense you laud so much for winning those playoff games, it gave up the lead in both Super Bowls. Without Eli Manning, that defense is not wearing the Super Bowl rings that they are currently wearing.
Some more facts, when you give Eli Manning a decent offensive line and a competent defense, you have a chance of winning football games.
I am simply going to repeat two grand and salient facts, both aggregated over 14 years, and let them sink in: a W-L record of less than 10 games above .500, while accumulating the second most career earnings in the history of this sport.
And this: Eli's defense did not give up 20 points in any of his 8 playoff victories. This includes a second half at Dallas (after being tied at half-Ike) in which Eli's offense gained a total of 57 yards, includes giving up only 14 points to the greatest team (greatest offense, really) in NFL history in Super Bowl 42, and includes giving up only 17 points -- and scored 2, so a net of only 15 points -- against the best offense that season in Super Bowl 46.
And, finally, can anyone offer an example to counter this summary: starting from forcing a trade on his first day in the NFL, Eli Manning has always maximized his own interest in any actions he takes, or does not take. Not that there is anything wrong with that, and not that his actions or inactions did not carry other effects, but let us readily acknowledge such, and treat him accordingly, starting with rejecting the absurd show of gratitude "He has given us more than we deserve" remark that appeared at the top of this thread. Eli Manning has been treated extremely well by the franchise and the fans. We do not owe him anything. In fact, we deserve more.
Here’s an example. Week 1, 2007. His defense looks like utter dogshit in a 45-35 loss in Dallas. Towards the end of the game, he injured his shoulder and the team doctors tell him he’s out 4 weeks minimum.
Was he a player who “maximized his own interests” then? What does a guy like Jay Cutler do in that spot?
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Eli is not solely responsible for his team's record. I can go through the years and name games where his team let him down. 2008? His best WR shoots himself in the leg. 2009? CC Brown is your starting safety. How about 2010? Defense and special teams blow a 21 pt 4th quarter lead that would have assured us of winning the NFC East over the Eagles. 2012-2015, his offensive line starts to get old. 2016, he comes out in Green Bay throwing darts and his WRs can't catch them.
Here's some more facts -- the defense you laud so much for winning those playoff games, it gave up the lead in both Super Bowls. Without Eli Manning, that defense is not wearing the Super Bowl rings that they are currently wearing.
Some more facts, when you give Eli Manning a decent offensive line and a competent defense, you have a chance of winning football games.
I am simply going to repeat two grand and salient facts, both aggregated over 14 years, and let them sink in: a W-L record of less than 10 games above .500, while accumulating the second most career earnings in the history of this sport.
And this: Eli's defense did not give up 20 points in any of his 8 playoff victories. This includes a second half at Dallas (after being tied at half-Ike) in which Eli's offense gained a total of 57 yards, includes giving up only 14 points to the greatest team (greatest offense, really) in NFL history in Super Bowl 42, and includes giving up only 17 points -- and scored 2, so a net of only 15 points -- against the best offense that season in Super Bowl 46.
And, finally, can anyone offer an example to counter this summary: starting from forcing a trade on his first day in the NFL, Eli Manning has always maximized his own interest in any actions he takes, or does not take. Not that there is anything wrong with that, and not that his actions or inactions did not carry other effects, but let us readily acknowledge such, and treat him accordingly, starting with rejecting the absurd show of gratitude "He has given us more than we deserve" remark that appeared at the top of this thread. Eli Manning has been treated extremely well by the franchise and the fans. We do not owe him anything. In fact, we deserve more.
Here’s an example. Week 1, 2007. His defense looks like utter dogshit in a 45-35 loss in Dallas. Towards the end of the game, he injured his shoulder and the team doctors tell him he’s out 4 weeks minimum.
Was he a player who “maximized his own interests” then? What does a guy like Jay Cutler do in that spot?
Yes, 26 year old unproven QBs definitely act exactly like 36 year old QBs with 2 rings and $200M under their belt. Great example.
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In comment 13705039 PetesHereNow said:
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If a quarterback makes it to his second and third contracts, he is going to rank very highly in career earnings in the NFL history books. Brady, Rodgers, Wilson, Roethlisberger, Flacco, Stafford are paid very handsomely too. Kirk Cousins is going to make a metric shit ton.
None of them have been paid more. Eli has been paid more than any other player by a single franchise. And has only been surpassed by his own brother in total career earnings. That's not by accident.
And why do you think the Lions gave Stafford 150 million plus? They are hoping and praying he can give them the success that Eli gave the Giants 10 and 6 years ago. When you win a Super Bowl as an NFL quarterback, you enter a different economic level. When you win 2 Super Bowls on the strength of two 4th quarter drives over the greatest team of our era, the money comes with it.
Paying for past performance, rather than future, leads you to a weaker roster. Rooting for past performance, rather than future, makes you an apologist.
If somebody came to you and said you're about to draft the 2nd highest paid player in NFL history in the future, but he's going to give you two championships in two runs for the ages, never miss a game, and finish Top 10 in every statistical category, would you sign up for that? Or would it not be worth it?
If someone said, you're going to pay a guy more than any other franchise has ever paid any other player and his career record for you is going to be .500, I'd be pretty pissed about it.
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Eli Manning has his faults. He’s not very mobile. He’s not a very good thrower of screen passes. But overall, he has been a net positive for this franchise. But you guys want to look at this ragtag group of misfits and blame number 17 on a list of 30 things wrong with this team. You guys want to say he has underperformed over the course of his career? I find that so off that I question whether we’ve been watching the same sport.
There's virtually no one on this board who thinks Manning hasn't been a net positive, or has underperformed.
That doesn't mean his legacy insulates him from moving on too early rather than too late.
And it doesn't change the very defendable position that better quarterback play is the most efficient way to improve the fastest.
You can’t put a Davis Webb or a Josh Rosen behind this line as currently constituted though. That would be asking to shell shock a young quarterback and potentially land us in even deeper water. Should we acquire a quarterback in the draft? Yes. But there are other issues to fix. Let Eli be the quarterback while those issues are addressed. Then, you give Webb or New Draft Pick a chance to hit the ground running.
What you're essentially saying is that the Giants should have passed on Eli Manning because of how completely awful the offensive line was in 2003. And that line was worse than the current line.
If you're sold on a quarterback and you're in position to draft him, you take the QB. Passing on that type of player would be a massive mistake.
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In comment 13705039 PetesHereNow said:
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If a quarterback makes it to his second and third contracts, he is going to rank very highly in career earnings in the NFL history books. Brady, Rodgers, Wilson, Roethlisberger, Flacco, Stafford are paid very handsomely too. Kirk Cousins is going to make a metric shit ton.
None of them have been paid more. Eli has been paid more than any other player by a single franchise. And has only been surpassed by his own brother in total career earnings. That's not by accident.
And why do you think the Lions gave Stafford 150 million plus? They are hoping and praying he can give them the success that Eli gave the Giants 10 and 6 years ago. When you win a Super Bowl as an NFL quarterback, you enter a different economic level. When you win 2 Super Bowls on the strength of two 4th quarter drives over the greatest team of our era, the money comes with it.
Tom Brady has won 3 more Super Bowls than Eli and has been in the league longer than Eli, yet Eli has been paid more money. And he's a helmet catch and a sideline catch (and a phenomenal defensive performance in both games) away from winning seven more than Eli, yet Eli has been paid more money. That doesn't strike you as odd?
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In comment 13704940 LAXin said:
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Eli is not solely responsible for his team's record. I can go through the years and name games where his team let him down. 2008? His best WR shoots himself in the leg. 2009? CC Brown is your starting safety. How about 2010? Defense and special teams blow a 21 pt 4th quarter lead that would have assured us of winning the NFC East over the Eagles. 2012-2015, his offensive line starts to get old. 2016, he comes out in Green Bay throwing darts and his WRs can't catch them.
Here's some more facts -- the defense you laud so much for winning those playoff games, it gave up the lead in both Super Bowls. Without Eli Manning, that defense is not wearing the Super Bowl rings that they are currently wearing.
Some more facts, when you give Eli Manning a decent offensive line and a competent defense, you have a chance of winning football games.
I am simply going to repeat two grand and salient facts, both aggregated over 14 years, and let them sink in: a W-L record of less than 10 games above .500, while accumulating the second most career earnings in the history of this sport.
And this: Eli's defense did not give up 20 points in any of his 8 playoff victories. This includes a second half at Dallas (after being tied at half-Ike) in which Eli's offense gained a total of 57 yards, includes giving up only 14 points to the greatest team (greatest offense, really) in NFL history in Super Bowl 42, and includes giving up only 17 points -- and scored 2, so a net of only 15 points -- against the best offense that season in Super Bowl 46.
And, finally, can anyone offer an example to counter this summary: starting from forcing a trade on his first day in the NFL, Eli Manning has always maximized his own interest in any actions he takes, or does not take. Not that there is anything wrong with that, and not that his actions or inactions did not carry other effects, but let us readily acknowledge such, and treat him accordingly, starting with rejecting the absurd show of gratitude "He has given us more than we deserve" remark that appeared at the top of this thread. Eli Manning has been treated extremely well by the franchise and the fans. We do not owe him anything. In fact, we deserve more.
Here’s an example. Week 1, 2007. His defense looks like utter dogshit in a 45-35 loss in Dallas. Towards the end of the game, he injured his shoulder and the team doctors tell him he’s out 4 weeks minimum.
Was he a player who “maximized his own interests” then? What does a guy like Jay Cutler do in that spot?
Yes, 26 year old unproven QBs definitely act exactly like 36 year old QBs with 2 rings and $200M under their belt. Great example.
His sentence said “starting from the day he was drafted...”. Let’s say he sat out the 4 weeks. Do we win the Super Bowl? Do we have even a 500 season?
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In comment 13705107 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13705039 PetesHereNow said:
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If a quarterback makes it to his second and third contracts, he is going to rank very highly in career earnings in the NFL history books. Brady, Rodgers, Wilson, Roethlisberger, Flacco, Stafford are paid very handsomely too. Kirk Cousins is going to make a metric shit ton.
None of them have been paid more. Eli has been paid more than any other player by a single franchise. And has only been surpassed by his own brother in total career earnings. That's not by accident.
And why do you think the Lions gave Stafford 150 million plus? They are hoping and praying he can give them the success that Eli gave the Giants 10 and 6 years ago. When you win a Super Bowl as an NFL quarterback, you enter a different economic level. When you win 2 Super Bowls on the strength of two 4th quarter drives over the greatest team of our era, the money comes with it.
Paying for past performance, rather than future, leads you to a weaker roster. Rooting for past performance, rather than future, makes you an apologist.
Everyone is paid on past performance though. Do you think the Texans are paying Jj Watt for what they expect him to give them going forward?
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In comment 13705129 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13705107 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13705039 PetesHereNow said:
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If a quarterback makes it to his second and third contracts, he is going to rank very highly in career earnings in the NFL history books. Brady, Rodgers, Wilson, Roethlisberger, Flacco, Stafford are paid very handsomely too. Kirk Cousins is going to make a metric shit ton.
None of them have been paid more. Eli has been paid more than any other player by a single franchise. And has only been surpassed by his own brother in total career earnings. That's not by accident.
And why do you think the Lions gave Stafford 150 million plus? They are hoping and praying he can give them the success that Eli gave the Giants 10 and 6 years ago. When you win a Super Bowl as an NFL quarterback, you enter a different economic level. When you win 2 Super Bowls on the strength of two 4th quarter drives over the greatest team of our era, the money comes with it.
Paying for past performance, rather than future, leads you to a weaker roster. Rooting for past performance, rather than future, makes you an apologist.
Everyone is paid on past performance though. Do you think the Texans are paying Jj Watt for what they expect him to give them going forward?
JJ Watt is 28. Even with his injuries, that's an awful example.
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In comment 13705027 christian said:
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Eli Manning has his faults. He’s not very mobile. He’s not a very good thrower of screen passes. But overall, he has been a net positive for this franchise. But you guys want to look at this ragtag group of misfits and blame number 17 on a list of 30 things wrong with this team. You guys want to say he has underperformed over the course of his career? I find that so off that I question whether we’ve been watching the same sport.
There's virtually no one on this board who thinks Manning hasn't been a net positive, or has underperformed.
That doesn't mean his legacy insulates him from moving on too early rather than too late.
And it doesn't change the very defendable position that better quarterback play is the most efficient way to improve the fastest.
You can’t put a Davis Webb or a Josh Rosen behind this line as currently constituted though. That would be asking to shell shock a young quarterback and potentially land us in even deeper water. Should we acquire a quarterback in the draft? Yes. But there are other issues to fix. Let Eli be the quarterback while those issues are addressed. Then, you give Webb or New Draft Pick a chance to hit the ground running.
What you're essentially saying is that the Giants should have passed on Eli Manning because of how completely awful the offensive line was in 2003. And that line was worse than the current line.
If you're sold on a quarterback and you're in position to draft him, you take the QB. Passing on that type of player would be a massive mistake.
I clearly said we should take a quarterback in my post. But if you don’t fix the other issues too, you’re gonna eat the same shit sandwich over the next few seasons.
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In comment 13705144 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13705129 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13705107 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13705039 PetesHereNow said:
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If a quarterback makes it to his second and third contracts, he is going to rank very highly in career earnings in the NFL history books. Brady, Rodgers, Wilson, Roethlisberger, Flacco, Stafford are paid very handsomely too. Kirk Cousins is going to make a metric shit ton.
None of them have been paid more. Eli has been paid more than any other player by a single franchise. And has only been surpassed by his own brother in total career earnings. That's not by accident.
And why do you think the Lions gave Stafford 150 million plus? They are hoping and praying he can give them the success that Eli gave the Giants 10 and 6 years ago. When you win a Super Bowl as an NFL quarterback, you enter a different economic level. When you win 2 Super Bowls on the strength of two 4th quarter drives over the greatest team of our era, the money comes with it.
Paying for past performance, rather than future, leads you to a weaker roster. Rooting for past performance, rather than future, makes you an apologist.
Everyone is paid on past performance though. Do you think the Texans are paying Jj Watt for what they expect him to give them going forward?
JJ Watt is 28. Even with his injuries, that's an awful example.
No it’s not. Watt will earn his massive contract from age 29 to 35? Those years are his prime years? Or did they pay him for what he previously did?
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In comment 13705136 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13704940 LAXin said:
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Eli is not solely responsible for his team's record. I can go through the years and name games where his team let him down. 2008? His best WR shoots himself in the leg. 2009? CC Brown is your starting safety. How about 2010? Defense and special teams blow a 21 pt 4th quarter lead that would have assured us of winning the NFC East over the Eagles. 2012-2015, his offensive line starts to get old. 2016, he comes out in Green Bay throwing darts and his WRs can't catch them.
Here's some more facts -- the defense you laud so much for winning those playoff games, it gave up the lead in both Super Bowls. Without Eli Manning, that defense is not wearing the Super Bowl rings that they are currently wearing.
Some more facts, when you give Eli Manning a decent offensive line and a competent defense, you have a chance of winning football games.
I am simply going to repeat two grand and salient facts, both aggregated over 14 years, and let them sink in: a W-L record of less than 10 games above .500, while accumulating the second most career earnings in the history of this sport.
And this: Eli's defense did not give up 20 points in any of his 8 playoff victories. This includes a second half at Dallas (after being tied at half-Ike) in which Eli's offense gained a total of 57 yards, includes giving up only 14 points to the greatest team (greatest offense, really) in NFL history in Super Bowl 42, and includes giving up only 17 points -- and scored 2, so a net of only 15 points -- against the best offense that season in Super Bowl 46.
And, finally, can anyone offer an example to counter this summary: starting from forcing a trade on his first day in the NFL, Eli Manning has always maximized his own interest in any actions he takes, or does not take. Not that there is anything wrong with that, and not that his actions or inactions did not carry other effects, but let us readily acknowledge such, and treat him accordingly, starting with rejecting the absurd show of gratitude "He has given us more than we deserve" remark that appeared at the top of this thread. Eli Manning has been treated extremely well by the franchise and the fans. We do not owe him anything. In fact, we deserve more.
Here’s an example. Week 1, 2007. His defense looks like utter dogshit in a 45-35 loss in Dallas. Towards the end of the game, he injured his shoulder and the team doctors tell him he’s out 4 weeks minimum.
Was he a player who “maximized his own interests” then? What does a guy like Jay Cutler do in that spot?
Yes, 26 year old unproven QBs definitely act exactly like 36 year old QBs with 2 rings and $200M under their belt. Great example.
His sentence said “starting from the day he was drafted...”. Let’s say he sat out the 4 weeks. Do we win the Super Bowl? Do we have even a 500 season?
There is no way around the fact that the Giants have paid Eli more than any franchise has paid any player, and paid a king's ransom in the draft to acquire him, and have been marginally above .500 for his career. Those are real numbers. That actually happened. They paid more money than any team has ever paid any player for a QB who led the league in interceptions three times. They paid more money than any team has ever paid any player for a QB that has failed to win a playoff game in 12 of his 14 seasons.
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In comment 13705155 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13705144 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13705129 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13705107 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13705039 PetesHereNow said:
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If a quarterback makes it to his second and third contracts, he is going to rank very highly in career earnings in the NFL history books. Brady, Rodgers, Wilson, Roethlisberger, Flacco, Stafford are paid very handsomely too. Kirk Cousins is going to make a metric shit ton.
None of them have been paid more. Eli has been paid more than any other player by a single franchise. And has only been surpassed by his own brother in total career earnings. That's not by accident.
And why do you think the Lions gave Stafford 150 million plus? They are hoping and praying he can give them the success that Eli gave the Giants 10 and 6 years ago. When you win a Super Bowl as an NFL quarterback, you enter a different economic level. When you win 2 Super Bowls on the strength of two 4th quarter drives over the greatest team of our era, the money comes with it.
Paying for past performance, rather than future, leads you to a weaker roster. Rooting for past performance, rather than future, makes you an apologist.
Everyone is paid on past performance though. Do you think the Texans are paying Jj Watt for what they expect him to give them going forward?
JJ Watt is 28. Even with his injuries, that's an awful example.
No it’s not. Watt will earn his massive contract from age 29 to 35? Those years are his prime years? Or did they pay him for what he previously did?
It's a hell of a lot closer to his prime than age 35-38.
Here’s an example. Week 1, 2007. His defense looks like utter dogshit in a 45-35 loss in Dallas. Towards the end of the game, he injured his shoulder and the team doctors tell him he’s out 4 weeks minimum.
Was he a player who “maximized his own interests” then? What does a guy like Jay Cutler do in that spot?
Absolutely he was ()and again nothing wrong with that, and like I said such an act could had other positive effects.
Do you remember how desperately Eli needed to prove himself in 2007? In fact, after that late November game against the Vikings -- Eli's 50th game as starter -- in which 3 of 4 of his interceptions were returned for TDs, there were genuine discussion on whether to draft a QB and start over the next year.
It was absolutely to Eli's vital interest to seize every playing opportunity at that time. His entire professional career was at stake.
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In comment 13705142 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13705136 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13704940 LAXin said:
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Eli is not solely responsible for his team's record. I can go through the years and name games where his team let him down. 2008? His best WR shoots himself in the leg. 2009? CC Brown is your starting safety. How about 2010? Defense and special teams blow a 21 pt 4th quarter lead that would have assured us of winning the NFC East over the Eagles. 2012-2015, his offensive line starts to get old. 2016, he comes out in Green Bay throwing darts and his WRs can't catch them.
Here's some more facts -- the defense you laud so much for winning those playoff games, it gave up the lead in both Super Bowls. Without Eli Manning, that defense is not wearing the Super Bowl rings that they are currently wearing.
Some more facts, when you give Eli Manning a decent offensive line and a competent defense, you have a chance of winning football games.
I am simply going to repeat two grand and salient facts, both aggregated over 14 years, and let them sink in: a W-L record of less than 10 games above .500, while accumulating the second most career earnings in the history of this sport.
And this: Eli's defense did not give up 20 points in any of his 8 playoff victories. This includes a second half at Dallas (after being tied at half-Ike) in which Eli's offense gained a total of 57 yards, includes giving up only 14 points to the greatest team (greatest offense, really) in NFL history in Super Bowl 42, and includes giving up only 17 points -- and scored 2, so a net of only 15 points -- against the best offense that season in Super Bowl 46.
And, finally, can anyone offer an example to counter this summary: starting from forcing a trade on his first day in the NFL, Eli Manning has always maximized his own interest in any actions he takes, or does not take. Not that there is anything wrong with that, and not that his actions or inactions did not carry other effects, but let us readily acknowledge such, and treat him accordingly, starting with rejecting the absurd show of gratitude "He has given us more than we deserve" remark that appeared at the top of this thread. Eli Manning has been treated extremely well by the franchise and the fans. We do not owe him anything. In fact, we deserve more.
Here’s an example. Week 1, 2007. His defense looks like utter dogshit in a 45-35 loss in Dallas. Towards the end of the game, he injured his shoulder and the team doctors tell him he’s out 4 weeks minimum.
Was he a player who “maximized his own interests” then? What does a guy like Jay Cutler do in that spot?
Yes, 26 year old unproven QBs definitely act exactly like 36 year old QBs with 2 rings and $200M under their belt. Great example.
His sentence said “starting from the day he was drafted...”. Let’s say he sat out the 4 weeks. Do we win the Super Bowl? Do we have even a 500 season?
There is no way around the fact that the Giants have paid Eli more than any franchise has paid any player, and paid a king's ransom in the draft to acquire him, and have been marginally above .500 for his career. Those are real numbers. That actually happened. They paid more money than any team has ever paid any player for a QB who led the league in interceptions three times. They paid more money than any team has ever paid any player for a QB that has failed to win a playoff game in 12 of his 14 seasons.
Yep. Forget the fact that his offensive line has sucked for the last 5 years. Forget the fact that his best target shot himself in the leg when we were the best team in the league in 2008. Forget that his defense blew a 21 pt 4th quarter lead in 2010 when one play clinched the NFC East. Most importantly, forget the two Super Bowl wins. Any average idiot could have won those games. We paid a bunch of money for Mark Brunell!
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In comment 13705153 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13705142 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13705136 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13704940 LAXin said:
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Eli is not solely responsible for his team's record. I can go through the years and name games where his team let him down. 2008? His best WR shoots himself in the leg. 2009? CC Brown is your starting safety. How about 2010? Defense and special teams blow a 21 pt 4th quarter lead that would have assured us of winning the NFC East over the Eagles. 2012-2015, his offensive line starts to get old. 2016, he comes out in Green Bay throwing darts and his WRs can't catch them.
Here's some more facts -- the defense you laud so much for winning those playoff games, it gave up the lead in both Super Bowls. Without Eli Manning, that defense is not wearing the Super Bowl rings that they are currently wearing.
Some more facts, when you give Eli Manning a decent offensive line and a competent defense, you have a chance of winning football games.
I am simply going to repeat two grand and salient facts, both aggregated over 14 years, and let them sink in: a W-L record of less than 10 games above .500, while accumulating the second most career earnings in the history of this sport.
And this: Eli's defense did not give up 20 points in any of his 8 playoff victories. This includes a second half at Dallas (after being tied at half-Ike) in which Eli's offense gained a total of 57 yards, includes giving up only 14 points to the greatest team (greatest offense, really) in NFL history in Super Bowl 42, and includes giving up only 17 points -- and scored 2, so a net of only 15 points -- against the best offense that season in Super Bowl 46.
And, finally, can anyone offer an example to counter this summary: starting from forcing a trade on his first day in the NFL, Eli Manning has always maximized his own interest in any actions he takes, or does not take. Not that there is anything wrong with that, and not that his actions or inactions did not carry other effects, but let us readily acknowledge such, and treat him accordingly, starting with rejecting the absurd show of gratitude "He has given us more than we deserve" remark that appeared at the top of this thread. Eli Manning has been treated extremely well by the franchise and the fans. We do not owe him anything. In fact, we deserve more.
Here’s an example. Week 1, 2007. His defense looks like utter dogshit in a 45-35 loss in Dallas. Towards the end of the game, he injured his shoulder and the team doctors tell him he’s out 4 weeks minimum.
Was he a player who “maximized his own interests” then? What does a guy like Jay Cutler do in that spot?
Yes, 26 year old unproven QBs definitely act exactly like 36 year old QBs with 2 rings and $200M under their belt. Great example.
His sentence said “starting from the day he was drafted...”. Let’s say he sat out the 4 weeks. Do we win the Super Bowl? Do we have even a 500 season?
There is no way around the fact that the Giants have paid Eli more than any franchise has paid any player, and paid a king's ransom in the draft to acquire him, and have been marginally above .500 for his career. Those are real numbers. That actually happened. They paid more money than any team has ever paid any player for a QB who led the league in interceptions three times. They paid more money than any team has ever paid any player for a QB that has failed to win a playoff game in 12 of his 14 seasons.
Yep. Forget the fact that his offensive line has sucked for the last 5 years. Forget the fact that his best target shot himself in the leg when we were the best team in the league in 2008. Forget that his defense blew a 21 pt 4th quarter lead in 2010 when one play clinched the NFC East. Most importantly, forget the two Super Bowl wins. Any average idiot could have won those games. We paid a bunch of money for Mark Brunell!
I guess you can only defend the playoff wins part of the argument? Not the narrowly above .500 career winning percentage or leading the league in interceptions three times? Got it.
Excuses are fine. We all appreciate the two Lombardis that Eli (and great defensive efforts) brought us, but if you can't see the forest for the trees, I'm sorry.
This post wins the thread! I wish I had read it before I just laid down a wall of beige.
[quote In comment 13705174 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13705166 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13705153 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13705142 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13705136 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13704940 LAXin said:
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Eli is not solely responsible for his team's record. I can go through the years and name games where his team let him down. 2008? His best WR shoots himself in the leg. 2009? CC Brown is your starting safety. How about 2010? Defense and special teams blow a 21 pt 4th quarter lead that would have assured us of winning the NFC East over the Eagles. 2012-2015, his offensive line starts to get old. 2016, he comes out in Green Bay throwing darts and his WRs can't catch them.
Here's some more facts -- the defense you laud so much for winning those playoff games, it gave up the lead in both Super Bowls. Without Eli Manning, that defense is not wearing the Super Bowl rings that they are currently wearing.
Some more facts, when you give Eli Manning a decent offensive line and a competent defense, you have a chance of winning football games.
I am simply going to repeat two grand and salient facts, both aggregated over 14 years, and let them sink in: a W-L record of less than 10 games above .500, while accumulating the second most career earnings in the history of this sport.
And this: Eli's defense did not give up 20 points in any of his 8 playoff victories. This includes a second half at Dallas (after being tied at half-Ike) in which Eli's offense gained a total of 57 yards, includes giving up only 14 points to the greatest team (greatest offense, really) in NFL history in Super Bowl 42, and includes giving up only 17 points -- and scored 2, so a net of only 15 points -- against the best offense that season in Super Bowl 46.
And, finally, can anyone offer an example to counter this summary: starting from forcing a trade on his first day in the NFL, Eli Manning has always maximized his own interest in any actions he takes, or does not take. Not that there is anything wrong with that, and not that his actions or inactions did not carry other effects, but let us readily acknowledge such, and treat him accordingly, starting with rejecting the absurd show of gratitude "He has given us more than we deserve" remark that appeared at the top of this thread. Eli Manning has been treated extremely well by the franchise and the fans. We do not owe him anything. In fact, we deserve more.
Here’s an example. Week 1, 2007. His defense looks like utter dogshit in a 45-35 loss in Dallas. Towards the end of the game, he injured his shoulder and the team doctors tell him he’s out 4 weeks minimum.
Was he a player who “maximized his own interests” then? What does a guy like Jay Cutler do in that spot?
Yes, 26 year old unproven QBs definitely act exactly like 36 year old QBs with 2 rings and $200M under their belt. Great example.
His sentence said “starting from the day he was drafted...”. Let’s say he sat out the 4 weeks. Do we win the Super Bowl? Do we have even a 500 season?
There is no way around the fact that the Giants have paid Eli more than any franchise has paid any player, and paid a king's ransom in the draft to acquire him, and have been marginally above .500 for his career. Those are real numbers. That actually happened. They paid more money than any team has ever paid any player for a QB who led the league in interceptions three times. They paid more money than any team has ever paid any player for a QB that has failed to win a playoff game in 12 of his 14 seasons.
Yep. Forget the fact that his offensive line has sucked for the last 5 years. Forget the fact that his best target shot himself in the leg when we were the best team in the league in 2008. Forget that his defense blew a 21 pt 4th quarter lead in 2010 when one play clinched the NFC East. Most importantly, forget the two Super Bowl wins. Any average idiot could have won those games. We paid a bunch of money for Mark Brunell!
I guess you can only defend the playoff wins part of the argument? Not the narrowly above .500 career winning percentage or leading the league in interceptions three times? Got it.
Excuses are fine. We all appreciate the two Lombardis that Eli (and great defensive efforts) brought us, but if you can't see the forest for the trees, I'm sorry. [/quote
Hi.
In comment url=index.php?mode=2&thread=560367&show_all=1#13705177]13705177[/url] Gatorade Dunk said:
[quote In comment 13705174 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13705166 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13705153 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13705142 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13705136 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13704940 LAXin said:
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Eli is not solely responsible for his team's record. I can go through the years and name games where his team let him down. 2008? His best WR shoots himself in the leg. 2009? CC Brown is your starting safety. How about 2010? Defense and special teams blow a 21 pt 4th quarter lead that would have assured us of winning the NFC East over the Eagles. 2012-2015, his offensive line starts to get old. 2016, he comes out in Green Bay throwing darts and his WRs can't catch them.
Here's some more facts -- the defense you laud so much for winning those playoff games, it gave up the lead in both Super Bowls. Without Eli Manning, that defense is not wearing the Super Bowl rings that they are currently wearing.
Some more facts, when you give Eli Manning a decent offensive line and a competent defense, you have a chance of winning football games.
I am simply going to repeat two grand and salient facts, both aggregated over 14 years, and let them sink in: a W-L record of less than 10 games above .500, while accumulating the second most career earnings in the history of this sport.
And this: Eli's defense did not give up 20 points in any of his 8 playoff victories. This includes a second half at Dallas (after being tied at half-Ike) in which Eli's offense gained a total of 57 yards, includes giving up only 14 points to the greatest team (greatest offense, really) in NFL history in Super Bowl 42, and includes giving up only 17 points -- and scored 2, so a net of only 15 points -- against the best offense that season in Super Bowl 46.
And, finally, can anyone offer an example to counter this summary: starting from forcing a trade on his first day in the NFL, Eli Manning has always maximized his own interest in any actions he takes, or does not take. Not that there is anything wrong with that, and not that his actions or inactions did not carry other effects, but let us readily acknowledge such, and treat him accordingly, starting with rejecting the absurd show of gratitude "He has given us more than we deserve" remark that appeared at the top of this thread. Eli Manning has been treated extremely well by the franchise and the fans. We do not owe him anything. In fact, we deserve more.
Here’s an example. Week 1, 2007. His defense looks like utter dogshit in a 45-35 loss in Dallas. Towards the end of the game, he injured his shoulder and the team doctors tell him he’s out 4 weeks minimum.
Was he a player who “maximized his own interests” then? What does a guy like Jay Cutler do in that spot?
Yes, 26 year old unproven QBs definitely act exactly like 36 year old QBs with 2 rings and $200M under their belt. Great example.
His sentence said “starting from the day he was drafted...”. Let’s say he sat out the 4 weeks. Do we win the Super Bowl? Do we have even a 500 season?
There is no way around the fact that the Giants have paid Eli more than any franchise has paid any player, and paid a king's ransom in the draft to acquire him, and have been marginally above .500 for his career. Those are real numbers. That actually happened. They paid more money than any team has ever paid any player for a QB who led the league in interceptions three times. They paid more money than any team has ever paid any player for a QB that has failed to win a playoff game in 12 of his 14 seasons.
Yep. Forget the fact that his offensive line has sucked for the last 5 years. Forget the fact that his best target shot himself in the leg when we were the best team in the league in 2008. Forget that his defense blew a 21 pt 4th quarter lead in 2010 when one play clinched the NFC East. Most importantly, forget the two Super Bowl wins. Any average idiot could have won those games. We paid a bunch of money for Mark Brunell!
I guess you can only defend the playoff wins part of the argument? Not the narrowly above .500 career winning percentage or leading the league in interceptions three times? Got it.
Excuses are fine. We all appreciate the two Lombardis that Eli (and great defensive efforts) brought us, but if you can't see the forest for the trees, I'm sorry. [/quote
In comment url=index.php?mode=2&thread=560367&show_all=1#13705177]13705177[/url] Gatorade Dunk said:
[quote In comment 13705174 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13705166 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13705153 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13705142 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13705136 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 13704940 LAXin said:
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Eli is not solely responsible for his team's record. I can go through the years and name games where his team let him down. 2008? His best WR shoots himself in the leg. 2009? CC Brown is your starting safety. How about 2010? Defense and special teams blow a 21 pt 4th quarter lead that would have assured us of winning the NFC East over the Eagles. 2012-2015, his offensive line starts to get old. 2016, he comes out in Green Bay throwing darts and his WRs can't catch them.
Here's some more facts -- the defense you laud so much for winning those playoff games, it gave up the lead in both Super Bowls. Without Eli Manning, that defense is not wearing the Super Bowl rings that they are currently wearing.
Some more facts, when you give Eli Manning a decent offensive line and a competent defense, you have a chance of winning football games.
I am simply going to repeat two grand and salient facts, both aggregated over 14 years, and let them sink in: a W-L record of less than 10 games above .500, while accumulating the second most career earnings in the history of this sport.
And this: Eli's defense did not give up 20 points in any of his 8 playoff victories. This includes a second half at Dallas (after being tied at half-Ike) in which Eli's offense gained a total of 57 yards, includes giving up only 14 points to the greatest team (greatest offense, really) in NFL history in Super Bowl 42, and includes giving up only 17 points -- and scored 2, so a net of only 15 points -- against the best offense that season in Super Bowl 46.
And, finally, can anyone offer an example to counter this summary: starting from forcing a trade on his first day in the NFL, Eli Manning has always maximized his own interest in any actions he takes, or does not take. Not that there is anything wrong with that, and not that his actions or inactions did not carry other effects, but let us readily acknowledge such, and treat him accordingly, starting with rejecting the absurd show of gratitude "He has given us more than we deserve" remark that appeared at the top of this thread. Eli Manning has been treated extremely well by the franchise and the fans. We do not owe him anything. In fact, we deserve more.
Here’s an example. Week 1, 2007. His defense looks like utter dogshit in a 45-35 loss in Dallas. Towards the end of the game, he injured his shoulder and the team doctors tell him he’s out 4 weeks minimum.
Was he a player who “maximized his own interests” then? What does a guy like Jay Cutler do in that spot?
Yes, 26 year old unproven QBs definitely act exactly like 36 year old QBs with 2 rings and $200M under their belt. Great example.
His sentence said “starting from the day he was drafted...”. Let’s say he sat out the 4 weeks. Do we win the Super Bowl? Do we have even a 500 season?
There is no way around the fact that the Giants have paid Eli more than any franchise has paid any player, and paid a king's ransom in the draft to acquire him, and have been marginally above .500 for his career. Those are real numbers. That actually happened. They paid more money than any team has ever paid any player for a QB who led the league in interceptions three times. They paid more money than any team has ever paid any player for a QB that has failed to win a playoff game in 12 of his 14 seasons.
Yep. Forget the fact that his offensive line has sucked for the last 5 years. Forget the fact that his best target shot himself in the leg when we were the best team in the league in 2008. Forget that his defense blew a 21 pt 4th quarter lead in 2010 when one play clinched the NFC East. Most importantly, forget the two Super Bowl wins. Any average idiot could have won those games. We paid a bunch of money for Mark Brunell!
I guess you can only defend the playoff wins part of the argument? Not the narrowly above .500 career winning percentage or leading the league in interceptions three times? Got it.
Excuses are fine. We all appreciate the two Lombardis that Eli (and great defensive efforts) brought us, but if you can't see the forest for the trees, I'm sorry. [/quote
In comment url=index.php?mode=2&thread=560367&show_all=1#13705177]13705177[/url] Gatorade Dunk said:
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Eli is not solely responsible for his team's record. I can go through the years and name games where his team let him down. 2008? His best WR shoots himself in the leg. 2009? CC Brown is your starting safety. How about 2010? Defense and special teams blow a 21 pt 4th quarter lead that would have assured us of winning the NFC East over the Eagles. 2012-2015, his offensive line starts to get old. 2016, he comes out in Green Bay throwing darts and his WRs can't catch them.
Here's some more facts -- the defense you laud so much for winning those playoff games, it gave up the lead in both Super Bowls. Without Eli Manning, that defense is not wearing the Super Bowl rings that they are currently wearing.
Some more facts, when you give Eli Manning a decent offensive line and a competent defense, you have a chance of winning football games.
I am simply going to repeat two grand and salient facts, both aggregated over 14 years, and let them sink in: a W-L record of less than 10 games above .500, while accumulating the second most career earnings in the history of this sport.
And this: Eli's defense did not give up 20 points in any of his 8 playoff victories. This includes a second half at Dallas (after being tied at half-Ike) in which Eli's offense gained a total of 57 yards, includes giving up only 14 points to the greatest team (greatest offense, really) in NFL history in Super Bowl 42, and includes giving up only 17 points -- and scored 2, so a net of only 15 points -- against the best offense that season in Super Bowl 46.
And, finally, can anyone offer an example to counter this summary: starting from forcing a trade on his first day in the NFL, Eli Manning has always maximized his own interest in any actions he takes, or does not take. Not that there is anything wrong with that, and not that his actions or inactions did not carry other effects, but let us readily acknowledge such, and treat him accordingly, starting with rejecting the absurd show of gratitude "He has given us more than we deserve" remark that appeared at the top of this thread. Eli Manning has been treated extremely well by the franchise and the fans. We do not owe him anything. In fact, we deserve more.
Here’s an example. Week 1, 2007. His defense looks like utter dogshit in a 45-35 loss in Dallas. Towards the end of the game, he injured his shoulder and the team doctors tell him he’s out 4 weeks minimum.
Was he a player who “maximized his own interests” then? What does a guy like Jay Cutler do in that spot?
Yes, 26 year old unproven QBs definitely act exactly like 36 year old QBs with 2 rings and $200M under their belt. Great example.
His sentence said “starting from the day he was drafted...”. Let’s say he sat out the 4 weeks. Do we win the Super Bowl? Do we have even a 500 season?
There is no way around the fact that the Giants have paid Eli more than any franchise has paid any player, and paid a king's ransom in the draft to acquire him, and have been marginally above .500 for his career. Those are real numbers. That actually happened. They paid more money than any team has ever paid any player for a QB who led the league in interceptions three times. They paid more money than any team has ever paid any player for a QB that has failed to win a playoff game in 12 of his 14 seasons.
Yep. Forget the fact that his offensive line has sucked for the last 5 years. Forget the fact that his best target shot himself in the leg when we were the best team in the league in 2008. Forget that his defense blew a 21 pt 4th quarter lead in 2010 when one play clinched the NFC East. Most importantly, forget the two Super Bowl wins. Any average idiot could have won those games. We paid a bunch of money for Mark Brunell!
I guess you can only defend the playoff wins part of the argument? Not the narrowly above .500 career winning percentage or leading the league in interceptions three times? Got it.
Excuses are fine. We all appreciate the two Lombardis that Eli (and great defensive efforts) brought us, but if you can't see the forest for the trees, I'm sorry. [/quote
In comment url=index.php?mode=2&thread=560367&show_all=1#13705177]13705177[/url] Gatorade Dunk said:
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Eli is not solely responsible for his team's record. I can go through the years and name games where his team let him down. 2008? His best WR shoots himself in the leg. 2009? CC Brown is your starting safety. How about 2010? Defense and special teams blow a 21 pt 4th quarter lead that would have assured us of winning the NFC East over the Eagles. 2012-2015, his offensive line starts to get old. 2016, he comes out in Green Bay throwing darts and his WRs can't catch them.
Here's some more facts -- the defense you laud so much for winning those playoff games, it gave up the lead in both Super Bowls. Without Eli Manning, that defense is not wearing the Super Bowl rings that they are currently wearing.
Some more facts, when you give Eli Manning a decent offensive line and a competent defense, you have a chance of winning football games.
I am simply going to repeat two grand and salient facts, both aggregated over 14 years, and let them sink in: a W-L record of less than 10 games above .500, while accumulating the second most career earnings in the history of this sport.
And this: Eli's defense did not give up 20 points in any of his 8 playoff victories. This includes a second half at Dallas (after being tied at half-Ike) in which Eli's offense gained a total of 57 yards, includes giving up only 14 points to the greatest team (greatest offense, really) in NFL history in Super Bowl 42, and includes giving up only 17 points -- and scored 2, so a net of only 15 points -- against the best offense that season in Super Bowl 46.
And, finally, can anyone offer an example to counter this summary: starting from forcing a trade on his first day in the NFL, Eli Manning has always maximized his own interest in any actions he takes, or does not take. Not that there is anything wrong with that, and not that his actions or inactions did not carry other effects, but let us readily acknowledge such, and treat him accordingly, starting with rejecting the absurd show of gratitude "He has given us more than we deserve" remark that appeared at the top of this thread. Eli Manning has been treated extremely well by the franchise and the fans. We do not owe him anything. In fact, we deserve more.
Here’s an example. Week 1, 2007. His defense looks like utter dogshit in a 45-35 loss in Dallas. Towards the end of the game, he injured his shoulder and the team doctors tell him he’s out 4 weeks minimum.
Was he a player who “maximized his own interests” then? What does a guy like Jay Cutler do in that spot?
Yes, 26 year old unproven QBs definitely act exactly like 36 year old QBs with 2 rings and $200M under their belt. Great example.
His sentence said “starting from the day he was drafted...”. Let’s say he sat out the 4 weeks. Do we win the Super Bowl? Do we have even a 500 season?
There is no way around the fact that the Giants have paid Eli more than any franchise has paid any player, and paid a king's ransom in the draft to acquire him, and have been marginally above .500 for his career. Those are real numbers. That actually happened. They paid more money than any team has ever paid any player for a QB who led the league in interceptions three times. They paid more money than any team has ever paid any player for a QB that has failed to win a playoff game in 12 of his 14 seasons.
Yep. Forget the fact that his offensive line has sucked for the last 5 years. Forget the fact that his best target shot himself in the leg when we were the best team in the league in 2008. Forget that his defense blew a 21 pt 4th quarter lead in 2010 when one play clinched the NFC East. Most importantly, forget the two Super Bowl wins. Any average idiot could have won those games. We paid a bunch of money for Mark Brunell!
I guess you can only defend the playoff wins part of the argument? Not the narrowly above .500 career winning percentage or leading the league in interceptions three times? Got it.
Excuses are fine. We all appreciate the two Lombardis that Eli (and great defensive efforts) brought us, but if you can't see the forest for the trees, I'm sorry. [/quote
If somebody came to you and said you're about to draft the 2nd highest paid player in NFL history in the future, but he's going to give you two championships in two runs for the ages, never miss a game, and finish Top 10 in every statistical category, would you sign up for that? Or would it not be worth it?
Ask that someone to provide you complete set of information: this 2nd highest paid player is a career .500 QB after 14 years and 220 games; he has had two playoff-winning seasons in those 14; and out of those 14, he has been regarded by his professional peers as top 3 in his position in no more than 2, and, no, there has NEVER been a vast conspiracy orchestrated by players and media to suppress our beloved Eli.
Now judge him again, as the 2nd highest paid player of all time. Do you think it is justified?? I am not against him in collecting every dollar of those money, but I seriously resent the absurd grievance that poor Eli has Not been appreciated enough, that "he has given us more than we deserve."
No, the opposite is true: we have given him more than he deserves.
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He showed up every week, didn't he? And still does. Was he a professional? Did he ultimately win two championships?
If somebody came to you and said you're about to draft the 2nd highest paid player in NFL history in the future, but he's going to give you two championships in two runs for the ages, never miss a game, and finish Top 10 in every statistical category, would you sign up for that? Or would it not be worth it?
Ask that someone to provide you complete set of information: this 2nd highest paid player is a career .500 QB after 14 years and 220 games; he has had two playoff-winning seasons in those 14; and out of those 14, he has been regarded by his professional peers as top 3 in his position in no more than 2, and, no, there has NEVER been a vast conspiracy orchestrated by players and media to suppress our beloved Eli.
Now judge him again, as the 2nd highest paid player of all time. Do you think it is justified?? I am not against him in collecting every dollar of those money, but I seriously resent the absurd grievance that poor Eli has Not been appreciated enough, that "he has given us more than we deserve."
No, the opposite is true: we have given him more than he deserves.
Boom, roasted.
Not at all! I have been watching the same team you have and I recognize all of those things. I just think it's crazy to give Eli all of the credit for the wins and none of the blame for the losses. It should be a little more evenly distributed.
Sorry. Not sure what that was.
Was supposed to read:
His streak is the best thing to happen to this team in 2017. Why bother messing with it?
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Fricking Albanian, lol. Back to the discussion, so the lack of playoff wins besides the SB years — it’s all on Eli? He shot Plax? He gave up 21 pts to the Eagles in 8 minutes? He made Beckham and the other WRs drop those balls in last year’s playoff game? He made Snee, Diehl, and O’Hara get old? It’s his fault alone!
Not at all! I have been watching the same team you have and I recognize all of those things. I just think it's crazy to give Eli all of the credit for the wins and none of the blame for the losses. It should be a little more evenly distributed.
And that’s fine. He surely has his share of the blame. I just take issue when he receives all of the blame without consideration to the other issues.
Hate to break it to you, but....
1. Eli Manning will be the week 1 starter for the Giants next year barring catastrophic injury. He's not getting cut or traded.
2. Davis Webb will not stop the Giants from taking a QB in Round 1 if a guy they covet is available, no matter what Davis Webb does or doesn't show them.
The sooner some of you accept that reality, the more productive some of these discussions can become.
And for number 2, the Giants would be wise to trade to get their guy like they did Eli inclusive of sending some of our talented malcontents to Cleveland or wherever.