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Reese's top 10 flaws | What's your vote?

DavidinBMNY : 11/26/2017 7:36 am
Which of these bug you the most?

1) Character flaw picks: Austin, Moore , Double O
2) Luxury Picks: Wilson, Moss
3) Scheme fits: Travis Beckum , Clint Sintim
4) Pure talent misses (former DB by the way): Sinorce Moss - Ramses Barden, Andre Williams, Adrien Robinson
5) Awful late rd OL drafts (non panned out), Brewer, Herman, Hart, Brandon Mosley
6) Reaches: Mykhelle Thomas, Jay Bromley
7) Resource Allocation: Examples: Over-allocate to fix TE (Adams, Evans, Ellison). Or sign Jenkins and draft Apple. Not drafting LBers.
8) All of the above
9) Combination of some of above
10) Other

For me it's 1) , 2) and 5). Why?

1) Because we weren't good enough to take those risks.
2) David Wilson in RD1? Come on. We desperately needed OL reinforcements. I liked Wilson as a player, he was electric. But we needed OL.
5) Reese gambled with an aging OL and couldn't catch up from the hole the team was in. Still all these years since 2012 the OL hasn't been fixed. This is the blueprint quick fix for the next GM.


Giants Draft picks - ( New Window )
Ignores LBs  
jeff57 : 11/26/2017 7:44 am : link
Waste too many third Day picks.

Misses on too many 3rd round picks.

Doesn't spend money on decent FA OL.

your flaw is that it can not be measured in a silo  
George from PA : 11/26/2017 7:51 am : link
which sure fire OL did we miss on Wilson?

Double O was viewed as a great pick....hindsight is 20/20.

I know Seattle did very well during those drafts....but the Giants drafts were relativily fine. the draft is a crap shoot.

one could argue his udfa were better then his late round draft picks.....

his biggest flaw imo was that he allowed the 2011 OL get old without viable replacements...which might be due to Coughlin.
cordy Glenn, Bobby Wagner, Lavonte David  
jeff57 : 11/26/2017 7:54 am : link
Could have been taken instead of Wilson. Two allpro LBs.
For me #1 is easy  
jlukes : 11/26/2017 7:56 am : link
he is slow to admit a mistake and cut bait with failures
RE: For me #1 is easy  
Danny Kanell : 11/26/2017 8:05 am : link
In comment 13705360 jlukes said:
Quote:
he is slow to admit a mistake and cut bait with failures


+1
Anything related to the Oline or LBs from the drafts  
Jimmy Googs : 11/26/2017 8:12 am : link
works for me...
for me it's 2, 3 and 4  
markky : 11/26/2017 8:14 am : link
he should build the trenches with solid picks first. way too many questionable picks.

and letting the OL deteriorate was a franchise killer.
reese  
jurban : 11/26/2017 8:46 am : link
the trenches says it all...linebackers...he finally got a tight end...
I remember talking to Eric  
bc4life : 11/26/2017 8:52 am : link
about NFL scouting and Giants' scouting in particular. Was surprised that a generalist approach was used as opposed to more position specific scouts. At the least, they need an O-Line specialist to consult with Giants because they get a lot wrong. And 40% of one of their best OLine's ever were late round and Undrafted Free Agents.

Wilson was not  
bc4life : 11/26/2017 8:53 am : link
a luxury pick. Bad injury & timing. I would have loved to see Wilson in this offense.
David - while those are flawed picks  
idiotsavant : 11/26/2017 9:05 am : link
Your characterisations or categories of them are way, way off.

George in what happy world  
idiotsavant : 11/26/2017 9:07 am : link
Was double O viewed as a great pick,
?

I told you guys don draft that kid prior to..

It's not hindsight


At least 5 or 6 of these picks  
idiotsavant : 11/26/2017 9:14 am : link
Listed were too small or too narrow hipped or weak for the positions they were dratfed for within the.NFL.context. And that's just from your list.

Wilson, Sintim, Moore, OO...it goes on all ten years.

Even when he had hits on skinny, those were positional misses. So you see the trend or bias more clearly.
He prioritizes physical frame / measurables over all else  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 11/26/2017 9:30 am : link
He's missed the changes in the game where you need to have a dynamic linebacker (Lee, Kuechly, Wagner, etc.). And that's just starters.

From your list, I'll say 4 and 7 because those usually occurred in the 2-4 rounds where he needed to hit for depth and didn't. No second contracts and most out of the league.

I think it can be summarized...  
Ryan : 11/26/2017 9:38 am : link
...as being slow to adapt to the changes in the CBA in terms of reworking their system. Too many instances of drafting guys with questionable character or want to, or young immature athletes, putting them on scholarship and expecting the coaches to turn them into football players. There's just no time for that anymore. That's not counting the guys that luck or other teams even more flawed evaluations saved us from taking (Darius Heyward-Bey, Rolando McClain, Jonathan Baldwin, CJ Spiller, etc).


Can I add one  
SLIM_ : 11/26/2017 9:43 am : link
while we are piling on.

This guy never trades down and stockpiles picks but then seemingly throws away picks for players to trade up. It is bizarre that they never considering getting more picks.

I could be mistaken but the last trade down was when Accorsi was in charge and we moved back to take Kiwi.

Under Reese, I remember these great trades.

- Trade up in the draft to get Barden even though we had already drafted receivers Nicks and Beckum. Don't give me that Beckum was a tight end - he was a big receiver like Barden. Nicks was also what I would consider a big receiver. At the time, we already had Smith and Manningham. Did we really need to basically spend a draft on receivers?

- Trade up in the draft to get Nassib. Were there concerns about Eli at that time? Not in my mind. The offense at the time, not Eli, was broke. A sure fire way to not fix the offense was by spending two picks on a quarterback in favor of other positions.

- This year, it was Bisnowaty. Maybe he becomes a player but he didn't even make it out of training camp. Maybe Wheeler showed so much that they had to keep him over Bisnowaty. That just proves that the draft is a little bit of a crap shoot and stockpiling picks is usually better than trading up.

I'm thinking there are other examples but maybe they involve players for picks (ex. Brad Wing - do you really need to trade a pick for a punter when teams will not keep 2?)

#10.  
AcidTest : 11/26/2017 10:13 am : link
Other. Refusing to trade down, ever, in any round.
The things  
jtfuoco : 11/26/2017 10:23 am : link
That bother me the most was the pick of Bromley in the 3rd round watching a ton of Syracuse games they guy had no business being drafted in the 3rd round I cant judge talent but even my untrained eyes saw that was a super reach.

The next was the move up to get Nassib the Bills coach who had him all through college passed on him 4 times but we feel like it was a steal in the 4th???? and to move up to get him seem stupid.

Finally the Eli Apple and Erik Flowers picks we go after these super young kids thinking they will get extra years out of them but it seems counter productive in that we are wasting cheap contract years waiting for these guys to grow up and into their positions
Sooooooo fucking tired of hearing  
I Love Clams Casino : 11/26/2017 10:31 am : link
" the draft is a crap shoot"


Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-Quuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuue

If it's such a crap shoot, why hire anyone at all to fill the position? Why pay somebody millions?

It's a bullshit stupid excuse. It's a crap shoot....STFU!
Reese didn't draft  
Jay on the Island : 11/26/2017 10:31 am : link
Sinorice Moss.
How is Hart an awful late round pick  
Jay on the Island : 11/26/2017 10:33 am : link
He was a 7th round pick that started several games and showed flashes during his first two seasons. He isn't a good offensive linemen but a 7th round pick that stick as a backup for 4 years is a good pick IMO.
press conferences, he could put an insane asylum to sleep  
gtt350 : 11/26/2017 11:05 am : link
/
"The draft is a crap shoot" doesn't mean  
CT Charlie : 11/26/2017 11:06 am : link
it's a totally random process. It means that chance may play a bigger role than analysis.

In general, the best players go in the early rounds, and the lousy ones go in the later rounds. But there aren't many scouts or GMs whose track records are so good that they're in demand and other teams are trying to steal their secrets. Belichick's strategy is to stockpile picks, in order to tilt the odds in his favor. He doesn't hit many home runs, but the Pats may end up with more serviceable players than most teams -- because they have more picks.
Slow to admit a mistake and unwilling to cut bait.  
Red Dog : 11/26/2017 12:53 pm : link
His first and biggest mistake, his draft boss Marc Ross, is still here after a decade of draft failures.
RE: your flaw is that it can not be measured in a silo  
LauderdaleMatty : 11/26/2017 12:58 pm : link
In comment 13705356 George from PA said:
Quote:
which sure fire OL did we miss on Wilson?

Double O was viewed as a great pick....hindsight is 20/20.

I know Seattle did very well during those drafts....but the Giants drafts were relativily fine. the draft is a crap shoot.

one could argue his udfa were better then his late round draft picks.....

his biggest flaw imo was that he allowed the 2011 OL get old without viable replacements...which might be due to Coughlin.


Cordy Glenn. Easy. And if not Bobby Wagner? Apple over
Decker? Is what it is. He needs to go but there is an obvious organizational view that DL and DB are priorities and given higher grades than other positions.

Not sure where Chris Mara ends and Reese begins.
RE: for me it's 2, 3 and 4  
LauderdaleMatty : 11/26/2017 1:01 pm : link
In comment 13705372 markky said:
Quote:
he should build the trenches with solid picks first. way too many questionable picks.

and letting the OL deteriorate was a franchise killer.


And this is the big one. He only grabbed Beatty early in his tenure. But the time he clustered OL Pugh Richberg and Flowers it was too late. And shitty RBs hasn't helped
No LB,  
BIGbluegermany : 11/26/2017 1:14 pm : link
since Antonio Pierce,that really piss me off.
Fatal flaws  
Colin@gbn : 11/26/2017 1:56 pm : link
Always enjoy stopping by and checking out these kind of threads. In response I was tempted to put together a list of the 'Top 10 Flaws of Peanut Gallery Draft analysts' but that would probably be unfair to peanuts.

I was also tempted to point out that Jerry Reese doesn't actually make the Giants draft picks but that basic fact doesn't seem to deter people from starting from a false premise so what the heck.

Speaking of fatal flaws of peanut gallery analysts one of the big problems I see is that we tend to micro analyze what the Giants do and then compare it to highlight reel stuff from other teams.

Just for fun I took a look at the recent drafts of the Baltimore Ravens as Eric DeCosta, their top personnel guy, is usually prominently mentioned on lists of favorite possible future replacements for Reese.

Interesting. Of players the Ravens selected in the first three rounds in the past 5 years exactly two are current starters. Two other later round picks are starters but no matter how you cut it 4 starters out of 5 drafts ain't all that good.

One of those starters is LB CJ Moseley, who obviously is a good one. However, the Ravens actually drafted 12 defensive players in the first three rounds of the past 5 drafts but none of the other 11 are current starters. In fact the 11 have combined for all of 80 tackles, 2.5 sacks and 1 pick so far this year. Now that's productivity. Meanwhile, the Ravens selected receivers with their first and second round picks in 2015 and those two have combined for 18 catches for 120 yards and 0 TDs this year.

Of course Decosta doesn't make the picks in Baltimore anymore than Reese does here, but the lesson probably remains: Be careful what you wish for!!
failure to sign certain free agents  
SHO'NUFF : 11/26/2017 1:56 pm : link
or at least showing any interest...failure to recognize that, in the NFL, speed kills.
If Reese doesn't make the draft picks  
SHO'NUFF : 11/26/2017 2:03 pm : link
why is it, and I'm paraphrasing straight from the owner's lips, "on Jerry and he knows it"? what responsibilities does he have and why even have a GM?
5 and 7  
joeinpa : 11/26/2017 2:03 pm : link
Good job by OP
The untouchable  
TMS : 11/26/2017 10:19 pm : link
Incompetent Reese and the crew he hired need yo go. But what else is new ?
Colin - You say that Reese doesn't actually make the picks  
Red Dog : 11/26/2017 11:43 pm : link
Then who does make the picks? Who is the individual who makes the final choice between the two or three or four final candidates for the draft choice after the scouts and draft boss have narrowed it down to those final candidates?

Ultimately it has to be one person, not a committee, and it's still one person even if there is somebody (owner) who can exercise veto power over that final choice. If it's not Reese, then who is it?
Reese's Flaws  
The Greek : 11/27/2017 9:15 am : link
The group has identified Jerry Reese's significant flaws. My top two are that he is not an agile thinker during the draft, thus he can never find opportunities to draft down and stockpile picks. He also is not a good evaluator of talent which means he is bad a making picks in the draft and picking up needed free agent talent. I think the glaring weakness on the offensive line when you have an immobile quarterback tells you all you need to know about Reese's weakness as a GM.
#8 plus some more  
Dave : 11/27/2017 11:58 am : link
bottom line is he is just plain ole stoopid
Reese's picks  
Colin@gbn : 11/27/2017 3:09 pm : link
Red; Sho et al ... I am a little late to the party as usual. Part of the confusion as to who makes the picks stems from the fact that most fans appear to assume that the Giants (Reese) make their picks the way the fan does at home: that they show up on draft day with their lists; that they cross the players off taken ahead of them and then make a choice of the BPA left. Except that's not how the Giants do it. Through April up until the draft just about everybody that matters including the owners, senior management, coaches and scouting staff spend the month leading up to the draft finalizing the Giants board and as part as of that process they identify a short list of players they plan to target. Some years they target a particular position; other years its a particular player or players. Ultimately they will have a short list of 2-5 players they really like and they take the highest one on their short list that's still on the board when the make their pick. Reese is obviously involved in that process but ultimately its a collective decision as to who goes on the list and where. Then at the end of the first round they repeat the process prior to the second day and restack their board and establish a second day short list. Then same on the third day. And of course who goes on the short list is determined in large part by the grades the different players get from the scouting staff and position coaches based again largely on game tape.

The other thing I have been stressing is that while the Giants went thru a dry stretch re their drafts in the 2010-2012, the fact is that their drafts have actually been pretty good over the past five years. And if you don't believe just look at them.
.... which is also how you don't necessarily need to hear interest in  
JonC : 11/27/2017 3:37 pm : link
draft prospects strictly from the mouth of JR in order for it to carry accuracy, as I've alluded in the past.
Colin  
DavidinBMNY : 12/2/2017 6:08 pm : link
Do you think Reese should stay?
Colin. I dunno.  
idiotsavant : 12/2/2017 6:50 pm : link
Having a process doesn't indicate either that it's a good process or that the scouting is all that good or that the pre-draft thinking is all that good with regards to how teams function.

This year. For example. Spending a crap load of time scouting QBs? Too much focus on that to the detriment of other positions?

My guess is that any NFL team with a good DL and decent DC knows that they can dial us up at any time ..in any game as currently constructed. We are skinny assed across the boards.

Except snacks.

Can't fire Mara. Next man up then.
Well I guess we don't need to worry  
DavidinBMNY : 12/4/2017 4:45 pm : link
About this anymore.
RE: Well I guess we don't need to worry  
Matt M. : 12/4/2017 4:47 pm : link
In comment 13724262 DavidinBMNY said:
Quote:
About this anymore.
OR, we have to worry about even more (or at least as much).
many moving parts  
giantfan2000 : 12/4/2017 4:54 pm : link
I have said this before but a lot of Reeses problems was that players he drafted had career ending injuries and terrible rehab because of TC strength and conditioning coaches

Nicks
Cruz
Terrel Thomas
Kenny Phillips

these guys are still relatively young and if not for injuries and terrible rehab they might STILL be on Giants.. I blame TC and his old school strength and conditioning coaches

SO Reese's big flaw was not insisting that TC fire his S & C coaches after the first year we lead league in injuries



RE: Wilson was not  
mrvax : 12/4/2017 4:57 pm : link
In comment 13705391 bc4life said:
Quote:
a luxury pick. Bad injury & timing. I would have loved to see Wilson in this offense.


Posters fail to acknowledge me when I say this:

Wilson was a NEED pick. The only RB on the roster at the time was a broken down Bradshaw.

Wilson was a gifted young RB who needed some time to learn to block. Real shame.
OL drafting/neglect  
TD : 12/4/2017 5:02 pm : link
Criminal neglect for too long followed by poor OL drafting in recent years.

You put a good OL on this roster and I still think we're talking playoffs this year - even with the Beckham injury and poor RBs.

RE: OL drafting/neglect  
Matt M. : 12/4/2017 5:08 pm : link
In comment 13724295 TD said:
Quote:
Criminal neglect for too long followed by poor OL drafting in recent years.

You put a good OL on this roster and I still think we're talking playoffs this year - even with the Beckham injury and poor RBs.
I don't think it was neglected. I think the GM and scouting department just did a terrible job drafting and signing FAs every year. To a lesser degree also the GM and HC making poor decisions on the OL we already had. We addressed OL every year for the last several years. We just stockpiled really shitty players.
I disagree on Wilson  
DavidinBMNY : 12/4/2017 10:43 pm : link
You are right to remind us the team needed a rb. But rd 1? Jacobs was a 4. Bradshaw was a 7. Tiki a 2. I realize it was last pick of rd 1 for Wilson, but I still didn't like it.

Also what was rd 2 was that Randle?

So top 2 picks playmakers. What about guys who can block?
RE: I disagree on Wilson  
Matt M. : 12/4/2017 11:50 pm : link
In comment 13724863 DavidinBMNY said:
Quote:
You are right to remind us the team needed a rb. But rd 1? Jacobs was a 4. Bradshaw was a 7. Tiki a 2. I realize it was last pick of rd 1 for Wilson, but I still didn't like it.

Also what was rd 2 was that Randle?

So top 2 picks playmakers. What about guys who can block?
What makes you think if they took OL they would have been any good?
I've read in a few places today about Reese rolling the dice  
Matt M. : 12/4/2017 11:55 pm : link
on an aging OL. I don't think the problem was him going in to any one season relying on the aging OL for that given season. The problem was that he waited way too long to start thinking about re-stocking the position. The Giants had an aging OL back in the 80s. They were able to maintain a high level because they drafted guys like Elliott, Moore, Reisenberg, Williams to start plugging in. The more recent Giants waited until their aging OL were either dropping to injury or already had a foot out the door to take an OL.

IMO Reese’s biggest flaw/mistake  
mfsd : 12/4/2017 11:56 pm : link
was his loyalty to Ross after he turned the running of the draft over to him.
Wilson  
giantfan2000 : 12/5/2017 12:06 pm : link
people forget Wilson made the All Pro his first year as Return Specialist
when was the last time that happen for Giants?
I think he had two main flaws:  
an_idol_mind : 12/5/2017 12:09 pm : link
1) Failed to keep the offensive line well-stocked.

2) Thought that the 2011 team was way better than it really was, which caused him to waste a ton of picks on guys who were only going to be great if they had a better supporting cast.
Too many high round busts  
Powerclean765 : 12/5/2017 12:21 pm : link
Wilson, Randle, Pugh, Richburg, Marvin Austin, Hosley, Flowers, Apple - JR pissed away too many premium picks which caused us to overpay in free agency for hired mercenaries who dont bleed blue. Basically took the old Snyder Skins approach to team building.

But his mid-round futility told alot - particularly the 3rd round:

Jay Alford
Mario Manningham
Ramses Barden
Jerrell Jernigan
Jayron Hosley
Damontre Moore
Jay Bromley
Owa Odighizuwa
Darian Thompson
Davis Webb

He got 1 legit player in 10 years. I would post his 4th rounders too but they all suck even worse. The 3rd/4th/even 5th round is where you find your *grunt* players that may not be athletic marvels but are rugged FOOTBALL PLAYERS who keep you competitive & try hard even when things go bad. For every star you get, you need 10 grunt guys like described above and Reese & Ross dont know how to find those players. You get those in the mid-rounds of the draft.







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