(jokes or insults are fine, I'm not easily offended).
Like many of you I have been a Giants fan since birth. It was passed down to me from my father, and his father before him and my huge extended family only agree on the Giants. We have Red Sox vs Yankees fist fights at holidays (I'm the black sheep Mets fan) and Rangers vs Bruins brawls, but everyone in the 100+ person clan is a Giants fan. CT upbringing does things like this sometimes. The state is schizophrenic in terms of fandom.
Some of my most vivid and cherished memories include Giants games. Thanksgiving 1982 watching LT run back the pick for a TD is one of my earliest and fondest memories, the whole extended family of Giants fans jumping up and down celebrating.
the Super Bowls appearances (all 5), though one not turning out like I'd hoped. So clear in my mind the plays, the celebrations, the t-shirts and magazines I still have to this day.
However, I have zero emotion or feelings that Eli is not starting Sunday. I read people are crying, some are threatening to not watch or root for the team, some people saying Mara (Chris) need to be fired and others in the FO as well.
I like Eli, though it took until 2007 for me to fully come around on that, I am an Eli fan, but I don't see it as some major travesty to replace him the rest of the season as the starter. The team is 2 - 9 what the F point is there in running Eli out there, it would be a disaster if Eli tore an ACL week 17 and the Giants were forced to start someone else.
the only reason to run him out there was the streak and that cheapens it IMO. Plus, my own personal philosophy is to root for laundry, when Eli moves on to whatever is next in his life I don't really care about him anymore.
anyway sorry for the long post, some of the fan reaction/revolt surprises me.
You can count on your hands the faces of the franchise since its inception, and Eli is on the Mount Rushmore of those faces.
Eli's had a good run. He's still young and has tons and tons of money. I know that's not what this is all about, but Eli will be fine
You can count on your hands the faces of the franchise since its inception, and Eli is on the Mount Rushmore of those faces.
Class act no doubt about it and an ambassador of the franchise, but everything must end, given the circumstances how should the Giants have handled it?
the team has zero starting WR's with experience, a patchwork OL with guys like Pugh, Richburg and Fluker out, a half-assed running game.
what is the point in running Eli out there each week?
And having him take a snap and run off the sideline to keep a streak alive is insulting.
I have no issue with this.
Still love the Giants and I look forward to the future.
My feeling today is the same as it was in 1994 when the Giants cut Phil Simms. It was a gut-punch to me.
As for me, though, I'll be gnashing my teeth and sharpening my pitchfork.
Mac will no doubt be judged on his record (among other things) at the end of the season. If you're Mara, how can you fire him if you don't even let him choose which players start and which ride the pine?
My feeling today is the same as it was in 1994 when the Giants cut Phil Simms. It was a gut-punch to me.
I agree Eric and to be clear I am not begrudging anyone for their feelings nor do I mean to suggest (even though it seems like it) what the proper reaction should be.
Simply sharing mine and stating some surprise that so many are in your boat.
I view this as an inevitable cross roads. I think Eli sticks around next year because it makes financial sense in every way except an unlikely trade, and then he'll be replaced permanently.
I fully understand, just like the rest of you, how hard it is to find a franchise QB (I in fact started a thread highlighting the tribulations of the Browns, Dolphins and Bills finding QB's), but I differ slightly with people who say things like "we won't truly miss Eli until he's gone".
While that's entirely possible, it's conjecture, isn't it possible instead of Dave Brown, the next Giants QB could be Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady.
My feeling today is the same as it was in 1994 when the Giants cut Phil Simms. It was a gut-punch to me.
This is worse than Simms. That may have been a gut punch...
.. but seeing Eli hurt talking about his demise mirrored feelings I harbored in the early 90's when I was told my brother wasn't coming home from Iraq.
I felt like I lost a family member.
Losing one of the most Iconic players in NY in the manner that management decided to do it.....I will never look at the organization in the same way as before.
What' a shit show.
one of the first things that came to mind when I started reading some of the fan reactions.
the player reactions surprised me though. I don't know if there is another player in the league (Tom Brady?) who would be faced in a similar situation and have so many former teammates come out so strongly for him.
But then I ask myself, what would Belichick do if this was Tom Brady?
Brady has no streak, but you can bet your ass even if he did, if he felt it was in the best interest of the team in any way, Belichick would sit Brady.
You need a therapist.
Remember, the Giants and Simms were at odds about whether he could play anymore. Simms had just come off one of THE BEST seasons in his career. But he also had a shoulder injury.
Remember his jersey retirement ceremony? He even took a dig at the Giants, "When the team decided I couldn't play anymore..." (The fans started to boo the Giants at that point)
They dumped Simms as badly as you could. It was ugly.
Quote:
.. but seeing Eli hurt talking about his demise mirrored feelings I harbored in the early 90's when I was told my brother wasn't coming home from Iraq.
You need a therapist.
Maybe..
Remember when Belichick "lost the locker room" and players "hated playing for him" after he cut Lawyer Milloy on the eve of the season?
(according to Tom Jackson and his sources in the locker room at least).
Not equating Lawyer Milloy to Eli, just the emotionless side of football decisions.
Patriots won the Super Bowl that year.
Pairing it with the shitshow that 2017 has become, the suspension of defensive players and the appearance of giving minimal effort, the transformation of Mac from a slob to a slick-haired shill, the continued arrogance of Reese and the invisibility of Mara and you have the situation we face today.
A situation that a supposedly class organization should understand how to avoid.
That is what has former players up in arms.
As a fan, I value championships and integrity, and the integrity part is seriously been damaged this week. I felt the same about Simms and it took years (and an unhealthy hatred of Handley and then Reeves) to get over it. The way my Grandfather felt when Sam Huff was treated poorly.
I don't expect to win every year. I don't expect everyone to make right decisions. But I expect better than this, and more importantly, I expect people to at least understand the gravity of their actions. When we pull moves that make up look more like the Redskins or Cowboys than the Giants, it should make everyone take notice.
Not a bad fan though.
Not today. I'm embarrassed to be a Giants fan today.
Remember, the Giants and Simms were at odds about whether he could play anymore. Simms had just come off one of THE BEST seasons in his career. But he also had a shoulder injury.
Remember his jersey retirement ceremony? He even took a dig at the Giants, "When the team decided I couldn't play anymore..." (The fans started to boo the Giants at that point)
They dumped Simms as badly as you could. It was ugly.
Not to mince words, but I believe he said "When they... When I decided I couldn't play anymore," or something to that affect. It came out like a slip, but fans knew exactly what was what.
The world goes on, you are correct. I guess I'm a little less a Giants fan today.
Pairing it with the shitshow that 2017 has become, the suspension of defensive players and the appearance of giving minimal effort, the transformation of Mac from a slob to a slick-haired shill, the continued arrogance of Reese and the invisibility of Mara and you have the situation we face today.
A situation that a supposedly class organization should understand how to avoid.
That is what has former players up in arms.
As a fan, I value championships and integrity, and the integrity part is seriously been damaged this week. I felt the same about Simms and it took years (and an unhealthy hatred of Handley and then Reeves) to get over it. The way my Grandfather felt when Sam Huff was treated poorly.
I don't expect to win every year. I don't expect everyone to make right decisions. But I expect better than this, and more importantly, I expect people to at least understand the gravity of their actions. When we pull moves that make up look more like the Redskins or Cowboys than the Giants, it should make everyone take notice.
On the whole I agree with this. the season has been a shit show from the pre-season lethargy to now, one debacle after another.
I'm specifically commenting on this incident (Eli not starting) and the reaction.
I think the leadership has been poor and anyone who can be replaced probably should be, but still find some reactions far beyond what I'd expect.
I understand eli wasn't going to be the QB for this team forever. I understood TC wasn't going to coach forever. The reactions you are seeing aren't coming from people disagreeing with the decision - it is coming from how poorly it was botched.
Legendary QB's have moved on before - Montana, Manning, Favre. Long-time QB's like McNabb moved. Romo was forced to retire. It happens. But rarely is a move botched this poorly. You'd almost have to go back to the way the Cowboys fired Tom Landry to see something along these lines.
I don't care that eli is being moved along. I do care that the organization is too dense to figure out a way to do it that doesn't make them look like fucking idiots.
As for Benny the Blunder, I have zero respect for him, his ability and his judgement ... He makes me nauseous.
One doesn't have to live by optics, but not understanding the blowback of poor optics says a lot.
I understand eli wasn't going to be the QB for this team forever. I understood TC wasn't going to coach forever. The reactions you are seeing aren't coming from people disagreeing with the decision - it is coming from how poorly it was botched.
Legendary QB's have moved on before - Montana, Manning, Favre. Long-time QB's like McNabb moved. Romo was forced to retire. It happens. But rarely is a move botched this poorly. You'd almost have to go back to the way the Cowboys fired Tom Landry to see something along these lines.
I don't care that eli is being moved along. I do care that the organization is too dense to figure out a way to do it that doesn't make them look like fucking idiots.
I get it, but what was the right way to handle it?
think of it this way, at 2 - 9 and officially eliminated from the playoffs, Eli was only playing because of the streak and I guess accumulating stats for his HOF resume (slowly with this offense).
if the plan is to keep Eli in 2018, as I believe it is, wouldn't a torn ACL week 16 or 17 in a meaningless game be far worse than keeping his streak alive?
Should they have announced it differently? Maybe put Eli on IR with a fake injury?
You have a coach that managed the optics of looking like a slob with a porn stache in an ill-fitting suit, yet he doesn't grasp the optics of benching a face of a franchise for Geno smith.
I don’t give a shit about optics. I do care, however, about character and class. Here is perhaps the greatest ambassador for your product in the history of your business and you publicly shit on him.
John Mara is a fucking disgrace.
There are plenty of ways they could have been handled it.
They simply choose the worst, IMO. And I think many agree.
And the worst cut down an iconic player, which is the last thing you want to do, especially at 2-9.
Part of it is I am a craggy middle aged man and have trouble working up much anger over how a 20 million/year guy was treated by his employer.
Part of it is also that I have been somewhat amazed at how little crap Eli has gotten for the team's problems. Show me a team that is 2-9 and has struggled to score 20 points for a year and a half and 9 times out of 10 I'll show you a QB who is getting clobbered by the fans and media. Not this case. The GM, HC, LT and even the star WR have gotten more flack then the QB. So the HC and Org have treated him badly but that is partly offset by the fact that the fans and media have been pretty damned good to him. I am not so sure that in his shoes, I wouldn't prefer it this way.
I don't know of a smart way to have done this. The locker room must have known it was coming. The "choice" they gave Eli was crap, I admit. But you can't wait till the end of the season to evaluate a rookie QB if a consideration is to draft another QB next year.
Eli is done, I have no problem with fans being upset, but I agree some of it is over the top.
In my opinion much of the backlash is more about hatred for Reese and Mac.
I understand eli wasn't going to be the QB for this team forever. I understood TC wasn't going to coach forever. The reactions you are seeing aren't coming from people disagreeing with the decision - it is coming from how poorly it was botched.
Legendary QB's have moved on before - Montana, Manning, Favre. Long-time QB's like McNabb moved. Romo was forced to retire. It happens. But rarely is a move botched this poorly. You'd almost have to go back to the way the Cowboys fired Tom Landry to see something along these lines.
I don't care that eli is being moved along. I do care that the organization is too dense to figure out a way to do it that doesn't make them look like fucking idiots.
+1
FMIC, I think this is one of your best posts. When you put the sarcasm aside, you really do have a knack for clearly dissecting a situation.
Eli earned the right to go out better than this.
On Sunday, they named him their "designated" starter ahead of the league's most valuable player, Steve Young. But Montana, believing the 49ers were insincere, turned them down.
Sound familiar?
Link - ( New Window )
For lack of anything better to do with the Giants idle on Sunday I rewatched the past several games and in particular rewatched Eli on every offnesive play. (As I am sure Eric will tell you you see a whole lot more when you watch the games on tape rather than live.) And it was really kind of sad watching Eli. He was never a gazelle but he always was nimble in the pocket, but now he looks like he can barely move back there. Literally every snap he takes two steps back, plants his feet and throws. There's no bounce in his feet, he rarely steps into throws and if there is even a hint of pressure he either bails or falls down. Its fine to say give Eli a clean pocket and he can still make plays; heck give Daffy Duck a clean pocket and he'll make plays. The fact is that no QB in the NFL gets a truly clean pocket and the great QBs are great because they make plays when pressured.
What I had really started to wonder was whether the common assumption that the Giants would take a QB in the 2018 draft but keep Eli around as starter thru next season was feasible. What I saw when I watched those games on Sunday was a guy who really doesn't look like he can play anymore; or at least at the level you need to play at to win on a consistent basis in the NFL and the Giants as an rganization have decided to move on. Sad but true.
For lack of anything better to do with the Giants idle on Sunday I rewatched the past several games and in particular rewatched Eli on every offnesive play. (As I am sure Eric will tell you you see a whole lot more when you watch the games on tape rather than live.) And it was really kind of sad watching Eli. He was never a gazelle but he always was nimble in the pocket, but now he looks like he can barely move back there. Literally every snap he takes two steps back, plants his feet and throws. There's no bounce in his feet, he rarely steps into throws and if there is even a hint of pressure he either bails or falls down. Its fine to say give Eli a clean pocket and he can still make plays; heck give Daffy Duck a clean pocket and he'll make plays. The fact is that no QB in the NFL gets a truly clean pocket and the great QBs are great because they make plays when pressured.
What I had really started to wonder was whether the common assumption that the Giants would take a QB in the 2018 draft but keep Eli around as starter thru next season was feasible. What I saw when I watched those games on Sunday was a guy who really doesn't look like he can play anymore; or at least at the level you need to play at to win on a consistent basis in the NFL and the Giants as an organization have decided to move on. Sad but true.
Colin: Please make this a new thread. It needs its own discussion.
Benching Eli to give Davis Webb some reps is something I think even Eli's most ardent supporters would understand. Benching him for Geno Fucking Smith to then get Davis Webb ready makes absolutely no sense, and throws an all-time great Giant under the bus for no discernible reason.
So, while he notes how horrible a situation it is, he also observes that Eli isn't playing well either. It's hardly an unqualified endorsement of what he can do going forward.
Quote:
.. but seeing Eli hurt talking about his demise mirrored feelings I harbored in the early 90's when I was told my brother wasn't coming home from Iraq.
You need a therapist.
Seriously. Holy shit.
He was approached and informed in meaningless games other players were going to get a look and he decided that was not something he wanted to be a part of.
christian : 12:15 pm : link : reply
I hope the portion of this that is on Eli isn't lost on everyone.
He was approached and informed in meaningless games other players were going to get a look and he decided that was not something he wanted to be a part of.
Eli was approached THIS WEEK to say they were going to take a look at Geno Smith until webb is ready to play. They could have easily waiting another week or two to work Webb in, but they approached eli with this knowing Webb won't see snaps this week.
Barnwell summed it up very well:
Absolutely not. It's ludicrous. ESPN's Dan Graziano reported on Tuesday night that the Giants pitched Manning on a plan to which nobody in their right mind would agree. Under the aegis of keeping Manning's consecutive start streak alive while creating evaluation opportunities, the Giants were planning to play Eli during the first half of games before taking him out by design at halftime for Smith or Webb.
Manning reacted to this plan as phony, and it's difficult to disagree. It reeks of stat padding and would have painted Eli as a player more concerned with his own legacy than with the Giants' organizational plan. I also can't think of a team in recent history that rotated their quarterbacks on a half-by-half basis, let alone did so by choice. The Giants must have known Manning would reject their idea. The only question is whether they believed, if even for a second, that they would look like the good guys and justified for benching Manning when the report of the plan came out.
But I personally don't feel there is anything unseemly about evaluating other players this week, knowing they are mathematically eliminated from contention (even if we all knew it weeks ago).
What's the difference if it's 2 weeks from now?
These decisions are made to 1) evaluate if Eli was the problem 2) evaluate where the depths in the roster is current state.
I get the emotional and morale implications. I don't like it, it's a PR nightmare, and it's not worth.
But point of fact, I wouldn't have been *shocked* if Manning said he understood, went out and played a magnificent first half, and let the chips fall.
He could have done that. He didn't.
I don't blame him for what it's worth, but he had a part in this.
I vehemently disagree with the manner in which it has been handled and communicated. That Eli is effectively benched for Geno Smith.
I don't even think you'd have half the uproar and certainly not nearly every talking head coming out blasting the decision if it had been postured as making way to evaluate Webb - and had been CLEARLY COMMUNICATED that is the goal.
The organization made this decision prior to a game on the West Coast, on a day where the owner is conspicuously absent, delivered in a manner that gave Eli pretty much no other way to respond than how he did.
There's probably no scenario that would be the "perfect" way to make this transition. Why so many people are visibly upset is because the Giants may have picked one of the absolute worst ways to do it. It's disappointing on many levels.
If Webb had been the primary backup all along, yesterday would not have been necessary. There would have been games coming up where they could have put Webb in. Games like the Rams game a few weeks ago.
They could have told both QBs that, being officially eliminated from the playoffs, they were going to work in some playing time for Webb.
I vehemently disagree with the manner in which it has been handled and communicated. That Eli is effectively benched for Geno Smith.
I don't even think you'd have half the uproar and certainly not nearly every talking head coming out blasting the decision if it had been postured as making way to evaluate Webb - and had been CLEARLY COMMUNICATED that is the goal.
The organization made this decision prior to a game on the West Coast, on a day where the owner is conspicuously absent, delivered in a manner that gave Eli pretty much no other way to respond than how he did.
There's probably no scenario that would be the "perfect" way to make this transition. Why so many people are visibly upset is because the Giants may have picked one of the absolute worst ways to do it. It's disappointing on many levels.
Just my opinion - and I base this on nothing other than the outcome, but I'm imagining the intention was to activate all 3 this week, and when Manning declined, Smith had to be penciled in to start.
They told him 5 days before the game, and he politely declined the plan.
My feeling today is the same as it was in 1994 when the Giants cut Phil Simms. It was a gut-punch to me.
What is poorly handled, sure, but people burning season tickets, a husband and wife crying at the dinner table, letter writing/email/phone campaigns to ownership, death threats.
have some perspective people.
it was probably a shitty way to do it, let it go.
Or not, I'm getting preachy and don't mean to, I apologize, people react differently to different things.
Reality is that this move isn't that crazy. The owner made it clear that he wants to FO to start lookign for the next QB. We are 2-9 and are out of contention. We have a qb on the roster who is on a 1 year deal and a rookie that they seem to like. They have to see what they have, don't they? They offered to let Eli start out of respect, but told him that they need to evaluate the others because it could change the direction of the organization. Eli decline, understandably.
How this hsa turned into macadoo looking for a scapegoat or the ownership being cowards is amazing.
I vehemently disagree with the manner in which it has been handled and communicated. That Eli is effectively benched for Geno Smith.
I don't even think you'd have half the uproar and certainly not nearly every talking head coming out blasting the decision if it had been postured as making way to evaluate Webb - and had been CLEARLY COMMUNICATED that is the goal.
The organization made this decision prior to a game on the West Coast, on a day where the owner is conspicuously absent, delivered in a manner that gave Eli pretty much no other way to respond than how he did.
There's probably no scenario that would be the "perfect" way to make this transition. Why so many people are visibly upset is because the Giants may have picked one of the absolute worst ways to do it. It's disappointing on many levels.
Jenkins hasn't quit. He played on a bad ankle for the majority of the season.
I have compassion for people going through real adversity in their lives, like dealing with sick loved ones, worried about being able to provide for their kids, etc. etc. But I don't have any sympathy for a QB who's made hundreds of millions of dollars playing a game who doesn't get the start the next 5 games. Boo hoo.
He attended the wake for the wife of one of the guys on the training staff. Heck, I consider the trainer a friend and I didn't attend the wake. Nor did any other active players.
On a day Eli Manning had the roughest day of his career, he attended something that eased another person's pain.
Eli might not give a shit about us, but be careful speaking in absolutes. He gives a shit about a lot - and moreso than almost anyone who sets foot in Jints Central.
I disagree with Colin about Eli recent play. He never was mobile, and survived bad lines with good pocket instinct. The instinct was still there, and he still used his mobility as he always had.
The only difference has been the quality of his throws. Much fewer tight spirals, and that with less than ideal accuracy and receivers ,basically eliminated any chance of YAC after a short throw. So the stiff to short routes with no YAC destroyed his YPA, rendering him useless.
Could Geno Smith be better? Sorry to say it, but there's a chance, because this was his forte. But the team overall is so bad the chance of that being measurable is minimal, so now they just look stupid.
And quite frankly, they were stupid for designing and implementing an offense that did not capitalize on the teams strengths. Terrible coachin and bad management.
He attended the wake for the wife of one of the guys on the training staff. Heck, I consider the trainer a friend and I didn't attend the wake. Nor did any other active players.
On a day Eli Manning had the roughest day of his career, he attended something that eased another person's pain.
Eli might not give a shit about us, but be careful speaking in absolutes. He gives a shit about a lot - and moreso than almost anyone who sets foot in Jints Central.
Not sure I see a lot of folks claiming Eli's not a good guy, doesn't care, or didn't have a rough day.
FatMan in Charlotte : 2:39 pm : link : reply
what Eli Manning did last night?
He attended the wake for the wife of one of the guys on the training staff. Heck, I consider the trainer a friend and I didn't attend the wake. Nor did any other active players.
On a day Eli Manning had the roughest day of his career, he attended something that eased another person's pain.
Eli might not give a shit about us, but be careful speaking in absolutes. He gives a shit about a lot - and moreso than almost anyone who sets foot in Jints Central.
Steve's wife died earlier this year. They are having a rememberance for her this weekend - I assumed the ceremony was last night because his sister in law posted something on Twitter. What Eli did do is attend the service back in May and was the only Giants active starter to attend.
I also think the Bronx tale line is stupid. While Mickey Manltle or Eli Manning wouldn't pay my mortgage if I got in trouble i don't see us fans passing around the collection plate for all our former players who have hit hard times, financial or otherwise. The connection to them is an abstract one, not grounded in a personal relationship but as a symbol of our undying love to our hobby. When the kid in the Bronx Tale saw Mickey Mantle cry he wasn't upset that Mickey was crying he was upset Mickey and his teammates and by extension him were devestated they lost the 1960 World Series. I am upset about Eli not because the man's life is ruined but because the football player Eli as a Giant may have come to an end yesterday. I can't stand when people use the Bronx Tale analogy.
He attended the wake for the wife of one of the guys on the training staff. Heck, I consider the trainer a friend and I didn't attend the wake. Nor did any other active players.
On a day Eli Manning had the roughest day of his career, he attended something that eased another person's pain.
Wait, a member of the Giants training staff lost his wife, and Eli was the only player who showed up at the wake?
There's a celebration for her life this weekend, but since it was posted on Twitter last night, I mistakenly thought the sister of the deceased was speaking about eli attending that celebration, thinking it happened last night.