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Interesting Point From Jon Gruden

Chris684 : 11/30/2017 10:42 am
Was listening to him on Mike and Mike yesterday, for a guy who is as much of a QB guru as anyone, I do value his insight (overreactions during MNF not withstanding).

First, the level of shock and disappointment you could hear in his voice was obvious. As a man who really appreciates quarterbacking, I thought that was very telling.

However, his more interesting point was regarding the "explanation" of how this was done to evaluate Webb. Gruden felt that this is basically further mismanagement of his development dating back to camp and preseason. He made the point that it was the Giants who basically told everyone Webb won't be ready this season and that it was a "red shirt" year.

He talked about how they put most of their reps into the backup competition between the immortals Geno Smith and Josh Johnson. His overall point being, you already passed up better opportunities to start grooming this kid and now you're doing so forcefully at the expense of Eli Manning?

It was a different perspective so I thought I'd share.
I've always liked Chuky........  
Simms11 : 11/30/2017 10:46 am : link
I think he'd do a good job here, however he's been out of it for a while now. Could he come back and be successful? I suppose he's been closely associated with the game and it might take him a year to get his feet back under him. I wouldn't be opposed to trying him as HC.
Back in the preseason  
ron mexico : 11/30/2017 10:46 am : link
Everyone thought we would be at the very least pushing for a playoff spot at this point. No one was prepping for 2-9, not should they have been
I think that's a great point by Gruden.  
BrettNYG10 : 11/30/2017 10:47 am : link
And again, I have absolutely nothing against Geno, but he never should have been #2.
This is using logic  
rocco8112 : 11/30/2017 10:47 am : link
this franchise is a joke and is making poor decision after poor decision
Hindsight is 20/20  
BobOnLI : 11/30/2017 10:48 am : link
Everyone believed Eli would start all season and the only question was best to fill in it Eli had a minor injury. Webb was never a candidate for that role.
I have been saying this since camp.  
robbieballs2003 : 11/30/2017 10:48 am : link
It made absolutely no sense to no even let him compete. Josh Johnson and Geno Smith are not the answer.
No reason not to have Webb #2  
HoustonGiant : 11/30/2017 10:54 am : link
if he's possibly the future. You're keeping a practice squad QB. That QB could activated if the rookie isn't ready, but #1 goes down....
I understand Geno for a competitive team  
Chris684 : 11/30/2017 10:56 am : link
and trying to safeguard against a 3-4 week injury to Eli.

But I don't understand carrying Josh Johnson along through the bitter end of preseason.

You bring Geno in via FA? Fine. You draft Webb in the 3rd round? Fine. But every single rep Eli didn't take this sumer should have been gobbled up by those guys with an emphasis on Webb.

Also, at 0-5, why not start expediting the process with Webb and getting him dressed on Sundays? I'm pretty sure he could have gotten some reps in the Rams or 49ers games.

RE: I have been saying this since camp.  
Victor in CT : 11/30/2017 10:57 am : link
In comment 13714226 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
It made absolutely no sense to no even let him compete. Josh Johnson and Geno Smith are not the answer.


Did you forget that this team was going to the Super Bowl? How can a Super Bowl team have an untested "3rd Round even though Jerry had a 1st round grade on him" QB as backup on a Super Bowl team? :-)

UGH! When you look back at the ridiculous pre season hype it just becomes more mind boggling that anybody actually dumb enough to belive it.
Davis Webb timeline  
BigBlueinChicago : 11/30/2017 10:57 am : link
April - Drafted

May through Opening Day - Told this would be "redshirt year"

July to Opening Day - Geno Smith/Josh Johnson fight for #2

Opening Day to November - #3 QB and inactive for all games

December - Starting games

Got it.
RE: Hindsight is 20/20  
chuckydee9 : 11/30/2017 11:00 am : link
In comment 13714225 BobOnLI said:
Quote:
Everyone believed Eli would start all season and the only question was best to fill in it Eli had a minor injury. Webb was never a candidate for that role.


Yeah people are forgetting that back in August and September we were focusing on a QB who can keep us in the hunt in case Eli went down and not really worry about grooming someone. Webb doesn't even have experience under center..
The Giants thought they were  
section125 : 11/30/2017 11:01 am : link
a Super Bowl contender, as did all the experts. If Eli had a minor injury that would have kept him out a game or two, who would have best filled in for him? A raw inexperienced draft pick, or a former starter? Keep in mind that the Giants were a favorite to be there at the end of the year. If you are rebuilding and not worried about a playoff run, yes they could have tapped Webb as #2. Otherwise, Smith was the more logical choice for #2 with the draft pick getting his technique flaws corrected while not under pressure.

.  
arcarsenal : 11/30/2017 11:02 am : link
I understand why they said the things they said and had things the way they did back in August.

No one thought we'd be 2 and fucking 9.

Basically, the idea was that Geno would hopefully be good enough to keep us above water in the event that Eli had to miss a few games. So, I was okay with that. Realistically, you're not going to have a whole lot better than that at the backup QB spot.

That said - Josh Johnson was a complete waste of space and never should have had anything to do with this teams plans. Webb should have gotten every single rep that was wasted on Johnson.
The problem with what Gruden is saying  
Jim in Forest Hills : 11/30/2017 11:02 am : link
or rather missing is that the Giants were supposed to go to the playoffs this year. Everyone thought so. As much as any of us think Geno is not a good player, the thought of him backing up Eli in a pinch made more sense than Webb.
I suppose Gruden is coming at it from a more genuine place.  
BBelle21 : 11/30/2017 11:02 am : link
As someone whose motivation is to groom QBs. I donít think that is McAdooís motivation now. I think heís determined to show ownership and the entire NFL that the problem is Eli.

Not the Oline, not the defense, not the special teams, the receivers, the running backs. The only way he can do that is to roll the dice on Geno and win some games with Eli sitting on the side. Explains how he can watch Eli running the scout team with a smile on his face and pretend like itís all business as usual. Heís out for his own survival. This nonsense that itís for the good of the team and fanbase, go to hell, coach. People are smarter than that.
RE: The problem with what Gruden is saying  
Jimmy Legz : 11/30/2017 11:03 am : link
In comment 13714266 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
or rather missing is that the Giants were supposed to go to the playoffs this year. Everyone thought so. As much as any of us think Geno is not a good player, the thought of him backing up Eli in a pinch made more sense than Webb.
Jim, everyone didn't think so.
I think Gruden understands  
Chris684 : 11/30/2017 11:05 am : link
the Geno point of view.

It was more the emphasis on a competition between he and Johnson which he seemed to think was a waste.

He commented on how much of an afterthought Webb was for the preseason game ESPN did in Cleveland.
RE: Hindsight is 20/20  
hitdog42 : 11/30/2017 11:05 am : link
In comment 13714225 BobOnLI said:
Quote:
Everyone believed Eli would start all season and the only question was best to fill in it Eli had a minor injury. Webb was never a candidate for that role.


exactly
RE: Back in the preseason  
Beer Man : 11/30/2017 11:08 am : link
In comment 13714213 ron mexico said:
Quote:
Everyone thought we would be at the very least pushing for a playoff spot at this point. No one was prepping for 2-9, not should they have been
Agree. Going into the season the expectations were that the Giants would be a playoff team; which meant they wouldn't be drafting high enough to be in the running for one of the primo QBs. That has changed, which has accelerated the need to evaluate Davis Webb.
I guess Gruden is not angling for the Giants' job...  
EricJ : 11/30/2017 11:12 am : link
if he is throwing stones at the organization.
Eric, I thought of that  
Chris684 : 11/30/2017 11:15 am : link
and I don't know why but I find myself with more interest in Gruden this time around than I had 2 years ago.

I don't see him as a fit with his brother in the division though. I could be wrong. Maybe they wouldnt care.
He's correct and I have been saying that since the summer  
Matt M. : 11/30/2017 11:16 am : link
Regardless of whether he was ready or not, he needed to be taking reps in the summer. They really needed to make a decision to cut Johnson as soon as they signed Geno and not have wasted any time on a battle for #2 that was never going to be Johnson.

This may end up being an audition for Geno as much as Webb. Think about it. If Eli is gone, which seems very likely, and the Giants aren't committed to going with a rookie QB, who is going to QB this team next year (for at least the first half of the season)? This week's fallout may end up setting the Giants back another year. Had McAdoo not been an asshole, Eli would have been our QB next year regardless, with the door open for 2019 for Webb or whomever they draft. Now, it's really up in the air, which may make next year another throw away season.
This is exactly right!  
ZogZerg : 11/30/2017 11:16 am : link
McApoo f-d this up in Training camp with wasting precious reps on the stupid ass backup "competition" between 2 suckass QBs. It was a complete fiasco that no one seem to notice.
RE: I guess Gruden is not angling for the Giants' job...  
Beer Man : 11/30/2017 11:19 am : link
In comment 13714296 EricJ said:
Quote:
if he is throwing stones at the organization.
Its more like he is throwing stones at the current HC (which is like beating a dead horse)
Preseason  
Cap'n Bluebeard : 11/30/2017 11:23 am : link
I completely understood having Geno as #2 and getting "meaningful" preseason reps as the #2. What I didn't understand is not getting Davis Webb all of the snaps that didn't go to Geno or Eli.

Likewise, I understand giving Geno the #2 practice reps and having Webb lead the scout team to start the season. But I don't understand not having some sort of gradual transition to Webb getting at least some of the #2 reps as the season slipped away. Teams have split first team QB reps in practice before. You can't tell me a coaching staff can't think of a way to split Scout team/Backup QB reps to at least start to break in a young QB.
I thought  
FJ : 11/30/2017 11:27 am : link
that Geno and Josh both looked like dog crap in preseason anyway. If we wanted a veteran backup QB, I would have cut them both and taken someone else's castoff - even Nassib. Giving Geno a tryout now is a complete waste.
RE: Eric, I thought of that  
EricJ : 11/30/2017 11:29 am : link
In comment 13714301 Chris684 said:
Quote:

I don't see him as a fit with his brother in the division though. I could be wrong. Maybe they wouldnt care.


yeah this has been blown out of proportion by fans. This has no impact at all in his decision making. In fact, the two of them probably would say that it would be fun to face each other. Nobody is turning a job down because a relative is coaching on a rival team.... nobody.
I hated how they handled these backup QBs  
djm : 11/30/2017 11:32 am : link
since day one. Right off the bat, even allowing Geno Smith into the room was strike one. It got worse from there.

The Giants and McAdoo couldn't have done a shittier job this season. They have set the bar on everything shitty. Bravo giants. bravo.
RE: I thought  
section125 : 11/30/2017 11:34 am : link
In comment 13714336 FJ said:
Quote:
that Geno and Josh both looked like dog crap in preseason anyway. If we wanted a veteran backup QB, I would have cut them both and taken someone else's castoff - even Nassib. Giving Geno a tryout now is a complete waste.


All backups suck. Name one good one. They keep extra QBs as camp fodder to take snaps during camp and in case of injury. They always have 4 qbs IIRC.

And yes they both looked like crap, with Johnson worse.
RE: Eric, I thought of that  
arcarsenal : 11/30/2017 11:36 am : link
In comment 13714301 Chris684 said:
Quote:
and I don't know why but I find myself with more interest in Gruden this time around than I had 2 years ago.

I don't see him as a fit with his brother in the division though. I could be wrong. Maybe they wouldnt care.


Well, it's not really the same.. but the Harbaugh's did play eachother in the Super Bowl in 2013. And they seemed to embrace it.

I don't see Gruden coming here but I don't think it would be because of his brother. If we actually offered him the job, I'm sure he'd take it or at least strongly consider it.
RE: Hindsight is 20/20  
KeoweeFan : 11/30/2017 11:39 am : link
In comment 13714225 BobOnLI said:
Quote:
Everyone believed Eli would start all season and the only question was best to fill in it Eli had a minor injury. Webb was never a candidate for that role.

That is the point.
Many of us were saying at the time if you were going to use a decent draft pick for a QB, give him an opportunity to show what he brings to the table. (Who would have thought Watson would do what he did?)
Gino OR Johnson should have been selected early on as #2 and Webb brought along as #3. As the season started to go down the tubes he should have been given some reps.
Waiting until this week was insanity.
RE: RE: Hindsight is 20/20  
KeoweeFan : 11/30/2017 11:40 am : link
In comment 13714258 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
In comment 13714225 BobOnLI said:


Quote:


Everyone believed Eli would start all season and the only question was best to fill in it Eli had a minor injury. Webb was never a candidate for that role.



Yeah people are forgetting that back in August and September we were focusing on a QB who can keep us in the hunt in case Eli went down and not really worry about grooming someone. Webb doesn't even have experience under center..

Watson didn't have experience under center either. Jus' sayin'.
I never bought the notion that Webb needs 2-3 years to develop.  
DonQuixote : 11/30/2017 11:54 am : link
Not everyone can be Watson, or Preskott, or Goff or Wentz, but what is it about our guy that needs multiple years?

People say that Aaron Rogers blossomed under Favre. We don't know that. We know he is a great QB, but we don't know that he would not have been as good after starting earlier.

I always figured the 2-3 year window was just BS wishful thinking, put out there so that Eli would not feel any pressure from the drafting of Webb. Also, I figured the 2-3 year window was put out there because the Giants figured they wouldn't need him right away anyway.
What I don't like now, as in this team right now.  
Motley Two : 11/30/2017 12:26 pm : link
The team outside of the QB position is in a very poor position and not the type of squad you want surrounding a rookie QB. This is risky and desperate by Mac & Reese. Full court prayer.
RE: I never bought the notion that Webb needs 2-3 years to develop.  
Victor in CT : 11/30/2017 12:28 pm : link
In comment 13714480 DonQuixote said:
Quote:
Not everyone can be Watson, or Preskott, or Goff or Wentz, but what is it about our guy that needs multiple years?

People say that Aaron Rogers blossomed under Favre. We don't know that. We know he is a great QB, but we don't know that he would not have been as good after starting earlier.

I always figured the 2-3 year window was just BS wishful thinking, put out there so that Eli would not feel any pressure from the drafting of Webb. Also, I figured the 2-3 year window was put out there because the Giants figured they wouldn't need him right away anyway.


Grren Bay couldn't wait for Favre to leave so they could play Rodgers.
RE: I never bought the notion that Webb needs 2-3 years to develop.  
Matt M. : 11/30/2017 12:33 pm : link
In comment 13714480 DonQuixote said:
Quote:
Not everyone can be Watson, or Preskott, or Goff or Wentz, but what is it about our guy that needs multiple years?

People say that Aaron Rogers blossomed under Favre. We don't know that. We know he is a great QB, but we don't know that he would not have been as good after starting earlier.

I always figured the 2-3 year window was just BS wishful thinking, put out there so that Eli would not feel any pressure from the drafting of Webb. Also, I figured the 2-3 year window was put out there because the Giants figured they wouldn't need him right away anyway.
Well, he did/does need a lot of work. what I don't get is, you know he never took a snap under center. How was it not a priority all summer to get him a ton of reps? What the F did Johnson have to remain on the roster for once they signed Geno?
They sunk time and effort over a number of years  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/30/2017 12:40 pm : link
working with Josh Johnson. It didn't work out, but surely you can understand why they would want to give him an opportunity to win the job. Otherwise why spend the time developing players?

And people forget that Aaron Rodgers is the first one to say he wasn't ready to play coming out of college.
I understand  
Gman11 : 11/30/2017 1:03 pm : link
the line of thinking by the Giants.

They thought they had a really good team. If Eli went down they wanted a veteran at backup to maybe win a couple of games and stay in the race until Eli recovers. They did not have any confidence that Webb could do that.

Since Geno Smith was available and was previously a starter they thought about giving him a shot at backup QB instead of lifetime clipboard holder, Johnson.

Now that the season is in the toilet there is no need to even have Smith on the roster. Why in hell they are starting him this week is what I don't understand except for something that I read that said McAdoo thinks Eli has been part of the problem and wants to see if a more mobile QB can do better. I'm not sure if what I read has been verified, but that's the only explanation that I can think of.
RE: I understand  
Matt M. : 11/30/2017 1:35 pm : link
In comment 13714683 Gman11 said:
Quote:
the line of thinking by the Giants.

They thought they had a really good team. If Eli went down they wanted a veteran at backup to maybe win a couple of games and stay in the race until Eli recovers. They did not have any confidence that Webb could do that.

Since Geno Smith was available and was previously a starter they thought about giving him a shot at backup QB instead of lifetime clipboard holder, Johnson.

Now that the season is in the toilet there is no need to even have Smith on the roster. Why in hell they are starting him this week is what I don't understand except for something that I read that said McAdoo thinks Eli has been part of the problem and wants to see if a more mobile QB can do better. I'm not sure if what I read has been verified, but that's the only explanation that I can think of.
2 things. I agree it made sense to sign Smith. Johnson is an absolutely terrible QB. But, when Smith was signed, Johnson should have been cut right away. They wasted snaps and time on a guy that really had no shot at the final roster. Then, I agree 100% about the season being lost. Once we were 0-5, or at any point after that, Smith no longer served a purpose on the roster. He should have been cut and Webb elevated to #2.
So, what's changed?  
Bill L : 11/30/2017 1:52 pm : link
Everyone is right that they predicted a better season for the team. They *drafted* Davis with that in mind and they *knew* it would take 2 (or 3) years to get him trained up and the had a *plan* for him.

So how does sucking biscuits change the plan enough? The plan was for him not to be ready this year and get more training next year because he wouldn't be ready then. My the plan even stunted his growth. Well, the team record is not going to make him ready faster. Playing him now isn't going to change the plan because the plan is based on things inherent to Davis, not the team. There's really no point in playing him for that purpose. In fact, it's unlikely, even at its fruition, that the plan will make him a better QB than Darnold. The team record hurts Davis more than anyone because he is now superfluous. And if he's superfluous, there's no point to playing him now.
RE: I understand Geno for a competitive team  
Bleedin Blue : 11/30/2017 2:51 pm : link
In comment 13714244 Chris684 said:
Quote:
and trying to safeguard against a 3-4 week injury to Eli.

But I don't understand carrying Josh Johnson along through the bitter end of preseason.

You bring Geno in via FA? Fine. You draft Webb in the 3rd round? Fine. But every single rep Eli didn't take this sumer should have been gobbled up by those guys with an emphasis on Webb.

Also, at 0-5, why not start expediting the process with Webb and getting him dressed on Sundays? I'm pretty sure he could have gotten some reps in the Rams or 49ers games.

Exactly!! Josh Johnson got reps over Webb the whole preseason, and now week 13 you want to look to the future and you're still not dressing Webb???? WTF? if Geno falls flat on his face you're going to turn to Eli and say get in there?? Eli would run right in there, but you've just said the guy's not the future!
I don't know, this coach and front office have royally fucked up, and they're making themselves out to be the gang that couldn't shoot straight with every decision they've made since!
They didn't expect to be 2-9 and out of the playoffs hunt  
SHO'NUFF : 11/30/2017 4:23 pm : link
before December. Mara panicked, flat out.
the decisions that have just been made by  
Jersey55 : 11/30/2017 5:12 pm : link
the Giants management is a good indication of why we are down at the bottom of the league, you have to show class to be considered a class franchise..
Yes they should have played him in preseason  
KWALL2 : 11/30/2017 6:58 pm : link
And given him more reps in preseason.

But that means nothing now. He's been at practice everyday for 3 months since then. Not playing him in preseason(at a time when we were considered contenders) doesn't mean they shouldn't do it now.

The season is over. He had 3 months of an NFL season. He should play to evaluate him.

Weak points across the board by Gruden.
RE: Yes they should have played him in preseason  
Matt M. : 11/30/2017 7:02 pm : link
In comment 13715336 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
And given him more reps in preseason.

But that means nothing now. He's been at practice everyday for 3 months since then. Not playing him in preseason(at a time when we were considered contenders) doesn't mean they shouldn't do it now.

The season is over. He had 3 months of an NFL season. He should play to evaluate him.

Weak points across the board by Gruden.
Not really weak when you consider he hasn't really been practicing during the season either.
How is it weak???  
djm : 11/30/2017 7:28 pm : link
Webb still isn't ready for game action after Four months being here and despite the head coach angling to replace Eli for how long? At least a month??

Everything about this is weak!!!! You've got to be kidding me...
His point was  
KWALL2 : 11/30/2017 8:27 pm : link
They didn't use him then so they shouldn't now.

It's weak. And stupid.
Matt  
KWALL2 : 11/30/2017 8:31 pm : link
So he hasn't learned anything.

What the hell is he doing? Playing cards everyday.

Or....maybe he's watching film and learning from NFL coaching and players. You know....learning how to prepare, learning how to attack different sets, how to adjust, learn the plays, learn what Eli does and why during games, how NFL defenses attack, cover, react and adjust....

Or let's not play him because they didn't during the preseason.
The really weird thing was...  
Sarcastic Sam : 11/30/2017 8:57 pm : link
Josh Johnson was on the team for a year. Did they really need a whole bunch of preseason time to evaluate him?
RE: How is it weak???  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/30/2017 10:12 pm : link
In comment 13715376 djm said:
Quote:
Webb still isn't ready for game action after Four months being here and despite the head coach angling to replace Eli for how long? At least a month??

Everything about this is weak!!!! You've got to be kidding me...


There is no time during the regular season for a team to teach a young QB who was always considered to be a project how to play. An NFL team gets 4, maybe 5 days to prepare their starters for the next game. They operate game to game. What practice time and reps there are go to starters, not third string players they told you immediately they had no plans to push into action.
RE: Davis Webb timeline  
old man : 11/30/2017 11:25 pm : link
In comment 13714248 BigBlueinChicago said:
Quote:
April - Drafted

May through Opening Day - Told this would be "redshirt year"

July to Opening Day - Geno Smith/Josh Johnson fight for #2

Opening Day to November - #3 QB and inactive for all games

December - Starting games

Got it.


If he's that fast a learner, and performs well enough in games 14-16 then he will start immediately next season,and his HC will be: McAdoo...unless Mc....Carthy becomes available.
If there's a team more stuck in their ways and intractable  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/1/2017 12:35 am : link
than the NY Giants it's the Packers. They're not firing McCarthy despite massively underachieving with an all time great QB.
I never  
MookGiants : 12/1/2017 12:53 am : link
understood why they kept Geno. Should have gone with Webb as the backup with only two QB's, he gets the practice reps and develops that way during season, and if Eli gets hrut he goes in in a pinch. If Eli gets hurt the season goes up in flames regardless, and Geno Smith is so bad that he's not even helping you win 1 or 2 games if Eli is out for a short period of time so who gives a shit.

Waste of a roster spot and waste of a chance to give Webb the backup reps in practice.

Geno served zero purpose on this team the entire year. It never made sense on any level. The only argument people will make is that he could help the Giants win a game or two if Eli had a few week injury or got hurt in the middle of a game. But if you've watched Geno and watched our offensive line in the last few years, that simply was not going to happen. He's a bad QB. No reason to keep him around or sign him in the first place.

They also easily could have cut Geno and Johnson and without a doubt one of them would have been available to sign if Eli got hurt and you needed someone for a couple weeks.
Well, I'm not sure that's true. Look at all the quarterbacks that went  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/1/2017 1:37 am : link
down with injury this season. He likely would have landed somewhere.

And Josh Johnson did wind up getting signed elsewhere too.
RE: His point was  
Matt M. : 12/1/2017 4:03 am : link
In comment 13715445 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
They didn't use him then so they shouldn't now.

It's weak. And stupid.
No, his point is they didn't use him then, which is why they can't use him immediately now.
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